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I am getting to my wits end here. Any time I get up against a Terran wall, Iose. They wall, usually Medivac expand, and then after enough turtle time, rush me with Battlecruisers (for which I have yet to find a good defense!). In the case of Terrans, if I don't win within the first 10-15 minutes tops, I won't win (except in one case....)
Here is a replay to demonstrate what I am talkin about: http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/69708-1v1-terran-zerg-scrap-station
As you can see, I tried to get a force of Ultras ready to assault his main base, but by that point it wouldn't have helped that much, since he had expanded to the island and fortified with those unstoppable BC's... and he would cloak and banshee me, so that would just leave me completed screwed. Any advice here? I have yet to beat a Terran who walls themselves in (actually, my record against ANY Terran is pretty bad).
Just to give some more depth, here are some Q's to consider:
1) How were my early game rush tactics? Did I get a force in there fast enough?
2) What is the best strat to defend against a heavy air offense?
3) What is the best strat to take down a BC army?
4) How was my general build order, expo rate, production, etc.?
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3) as far as army composition, I would recommend getting corrupters. They deal bonus dmg against massive units (Battle Cruisers) and also have 2 natural armor! BCs do 10 dmg vs ground and only 6 dmg vs air. So if you even on upgrades he will only do 4 dmg vs corrupters (every .225 seconds- 17.7 dps) Corruption makes the target take 20% more dmg and Corrupters are faster than battle cruisers.
Here's some stats: - all stats assume 1-1 upgrades (BC 4 armor, 7 A) (Cor 3 armor, 22 A)
corrupters kill a bc in 31 shots (550/18) = 31 * 1.9 = 58.9 seconds
with corruption 25 shots (550* .8)/18 = 25 * 1.9 = 47.5
BC kill corrupter in 50 shots (200/4) = 50 *.225 = 11.25 seconds
This means that if 3 corrupters (using corruption) fight 1 bc. 1 corrupter will die. while you spent (450/300) and he spent (400/300)
Hopefully other people can answer your other questions as I'm at work and cannot watch the replay
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Hey Alvas, I watched most of your replay and I think I have a few tips for you that should help a lot. I'm a diamond level zerg player myself, and feel your pain against terrans walling in and teching up. This turned out to be pretty long, sorry about that.
Some big things I noticed was that the terran actually didn't "wall in" and most of the game just had a bunker or two at the front. You attacked with your zerglings and roaches just a little late the first time, and you focused on the bunkers. What you really want to do as Zerg, especially early on is to get IN his base, and kill his scvs! You don't have to "force" your way through the door if you can get in before they are locked down tight. If they have a bunker or two but are not totally walled off, just run right past the bunker! You might lose a zergling or two, but that's no big deal because he will have to empty the bunkers and chase after you. Then you can fight the marines outside of the bunker, or just kill as many workers as you can!
When you send your first group of zerglings out, just go right into his base if you can, don't wait in front of it where you can't see what he has.
You did some good things like expanding, and you had far more drones than his scvs for most of the game which is great when they turtle up like that. Keep making even more drones though, you want 2-3 on every mineral patch. You also got your lair and spire long before he ever started making air units. But you never used your mutalisks! Again, try to sneak them in the back of his base and kill his scvs. That terran had no turrets or bunkers or anti air near the whole back of his base.
If they are playing defensive and walling off, do NOT let them expand if you can help it. One good trick to block the island expansion is you can float an overlord there, and tell it to drop creep. Then he can't land a command center until he kills the overlord, and you can then block it with mutalisks. It's a good idea to have an overlord dropping creep on pretty much every expansion actually.
To fight off battlecruisers you will want lots of corruptors, and use their corruption ability. They are very good at fighting bcs. Mutalisks and hydralisks are not good at all against bcs, pretty much only corruptors. Then when you killed off the bcs you can make half of them into brood lords, which just destroy a walled off terran very easily. Brood lords are much easier to break into a terran base than ultras. Anyway I hope some of this helps, you will get better and you already are doing some good things like expanding when your opponent turtles.
I actually just played a Zerg vs Terran on this map, Here's My Replay where I do some of the things I mentioned. Now I'm not perfect and made a few mistakes of course but he walled in and I expanded and kept him contained, which is the main priority.
Good luck!
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You have a lot of things you can work on. I watched the first few minutes of the replay only.
The terran did not wall in. They put up two bunkers, but did not block off the ramp at all. (see point 3 below)
First, you should have sent your initial overlord to scout, especially on this map, as it can get there very quickly.
Second, you should have your workers rallied to your mineral patch.
Third,instead of trying to take down the bunkers with your initial rush, you should have just run past them. Why attack where your opponent is strong? Run toward his mineral line to kill workers, or try to take down a production building. then he will be forced to unload his marines from the bunkers. They will be much more vulnerable that way.
Fourth, when you see that he is massing BC's, and want a "simple" solution, build Corrupters. The amount of corrupters you can build with X amount of min/gas will always beat the amount of BC's they can build with the same amount. If they are able to spend way more money than you, then that is the problem, not BC's in particular.
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1) Not fast enough
He only had 1 bunker on the right of his ramp for quite awhile, you could have run speedlings in and killed most of his workers and won the game in about 10 minutes. In fact, your first 2 attacks, had you gone straight for his workers, instead of trying to destroy the whole wall, it would have won you game. He really didn't have much of an army at the very beginning, because he wasted 125 minerals building an engineering bay while he was still building his first barracks. I stopped watching the replay after that, because I didn't really want to watch an hour and 7 minute replay.
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Overall I think you need to work on your fundamentals. Don't stress about complexities like strategies and build orders. Work on rallying your workers and building them as soon as possible. Keep your money low and learn to scout. Evaluate their army strength vs. yours with overlords and go in and kill them if you have the advantage.
Like others said, a wall is only a wall if you can't move past it. You could have just ignored his bunkers.
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Hmm.. you guys are approaching this the wrong way. You're attacking the stem of the problem, which is the wall.The problem isn't the wall or the BCs.
The way to get about this isn't "how do i break his wall". It's simply, "how do I use his turtling wall-in to my advantage". If he walls in and bunkers up, he's basically saying: "you can have the rest of the map until I have my 150 food army"
Drone up, expand, macro. And by the time he moves out, you'll be so economically superior it won't really matter what he throws at you. Of course, good scouting will help you prepare better, but you get the idea.
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well if he is gettng BC's and your getting Ultras your going to lose, Go muta/ling early/mid game and transition to courruptors if he goes BC's and you will win very easily
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As a new SC2 player and not really an RTS guru Zerg has proven to be a very challening race, but I've begun winning a majority of my games through starving my opponent. These games take longer and my game play probably prevents me from ending my opponent sooner, but if they choose to turtle and allow me to map expand it seems like as good a way to win as any.
Example: http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/69792-1v1-terran-zerg-xelnaga-caverns#rd:dna
The comments about gaining map control and superior economy are all valid. The turtled player really gives up the economic advantage for early safety. With zergs inherent ability to produce any unit from a hatch after the specialization building is complete, your expansions are literally larvae banks, and map expansion is in your favor.
My game play is low silver so by no means am I great, but a win is a win and I've found this prolonged play style to be less risky than throwing unit after unit into heavily defended primaries and naturals.
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/69792-1v1-terran-zerg-xelnaga-caverns#rd:dna
You will most likely learn nothing on how to win from my tragic gameplay, but you will get a very good example of what happens when your opponent is denied resouces beyond their natural.
Trost/Kastlerok
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Nydus or speed OV drop behind his base. Don't attack the wall directly.
In the early game before he finishes wall, just run past and attack his SCVs.
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I will have to try running by the bunkers/depots in the next game or two and see how much it helps!
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let him wall and turtle... expand and tech... not sure what the issue here is. I'd love it if all my terrans walled in and teched.
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If they wall themselves in, macro like hell. Makes sure to try and keep scouting them because you'll want to be prepared for when he's going to push, and with what is he going to push with. If you kept on your macro and are able to survive his first push, your at a much better position. A good rule of thumb is to always stay 1 expansion ahead of the opponent.
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If you prefer a more direct approach, and want to SMASH down his wall which is tons of fun (and afterall this game is supposed to provide some bit of fun) build up your econ, build some banelings, a decent force for protecting your base, and get ovie speed/xport
Zerg is lucky enough to have more transport ships than they know what to do with, so in taking advantage of that, fill some overlords up with banelings and a few zerglings for cleanup, then get an equal number of empty overlords and group them up with your full ones. move the force over the top of his wall in and simply unload.
There obviously are things to watch for when building up for this:
-make sure you scouted to see if there isn't a bunch of vikings that could kill your overlords as they are retreating
-make sure he wasn't going pure marines or a mix of marines and ghosts that can snipe overlords as they're coming in
-dump them in a smart spot in his wall for maximum damage
In testing this (and executing) this can crack his base wide open killing barracks, siege tanks, bunkers, supply depots, everything. I've tested it with several thors at the choke, a bunker, a group of marines/mauraders and when i do go in for the drop the most overlords i'll loose is 2... maybe 3. and what's 300 minerals for a zerg at that point in the game?
If you bring along the "dummy" overlords it will also vastly decrease the chance a cargo containing overlord will go down. In the times I've done it, it looks like a nuke hit afterward, most if not all of his siege tanks usually go down, and zerglings/ultralisks can pour in without resistance, and again, it's tons of fun when done right.
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If you see a walling terran then do a fast expand and out macro him. You don't necessarily have to have better units than him as long as you have more crap. Most the time a walling terran just wants to macro up to the point where he feels safe enough to expand. If he doesn't wall off completely run your lings pass his defenses and attack the mineral line. The problem with terran is they can get almost any unit they want easily so just make sure you scout and have an idea what he is doing at all times. You just gotta keep pressure on him with bombardments of units so he can't play his own game.
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EPT
