EPTCan anyone enlighten me on this what seems ludicrously fast expo?
[?] 15 Hatchery?
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Jeffbelittle
United States468 Posts
Can anyone enlighten me on this what seems ludicrously fast expo? | ||
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MICHELLE
Korea (South)199 Posts
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RedLobster
4 Posts
When I first started I found this idea ludicrous as well Jeff. I recommend looking up some replays of Idra, very likely the best macro zerg player in the world. He's like an artist and I learned the 15 hatch strategy from watching him. Expanding quickly in my opinion is very map dependent. If you are playing in an area where a choke point leads into your nat then it's amazing. You should easily be able to defend that entrance with only a few lings and a spine crawler. Likewise economically you will take the advantage early in the game. Lastly it's good because you have an extra larva production facility. This build however takes a good deal of practice against early rushes. If you can master it, you will advance quickly as a zerg player. Here is my usual build order 9 Overlord 14 gas 14 pool (Put 3 drones on the gas right when it finishes, this will give you enough gas for speedlings right when it pops) 15 Overlord 15 Queen and Hatch Start your second Queen as soon as the first finishes and send it to the expansion, it should arrive right when the Hatch pops. My best advice would be to give it a try against a practice teammate who isn't going for a quick rush build. RedLobster is my battlenet account name so if you want to practice I don't mind showing you some stuff. | ||
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Jeffbelittle
United States468 Posts
Also. How many zerglings should I keep to reasonably defend my base until I get a good patch of roaches out? It seems like I'd take a huge hit on army doing this... | ||
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Soulous
United States133 Posts
On August 24 2010 07:17 RedLobster wrote: 72 Division Platinum zerg player When I first started I found this idea ludicrous as well Jeff. I recommend looking up some replays of Idra, very likely the best macro zerg player in the world. He's like an artist and I learned the 15 hatch strategy from watching him. Expanding quickly in my opinion is very map dependent. If you are playing in an area where a choke point leads into your nat then it's amazing. You should easily be able to defend that entrance with only a few lings and a spine crawler. Likewise economically you will take the advantage early in the game. Lastly it's good because you have an extra larva production facility. This build however takes a good deal of practice against early rushes. If you can master it, you will advance quickly as a zerg player. Here is my usual build order 9 Overlord 14 gas 14 pool (Put 3 drones on the gas right when it finishes, this will give you enough gas for speedlings right when it pops) 15 Overlord 15 Queen and Hatch Start your second Queen as soon as the first finishes and send it to the expansion, it should arrive right when the Hatch pops. My best advice would be to give it a try against a practice teammate who isn't going for a quick rush build. RedLobster is my battlenet account name so if you want to practice I don't mind showing you some stuff. With 14 pool 15 hatch you don't get your gas until after your queen -_- More info on this build: http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/14_pool_15_hatch This BO is rather risky on most maps, however, so many players have been favoring 14 gas 14 pool and an expo at around 21 so they can get zerglings with speed out quickly to defend. On August 24 2010 07:28 Jeffbelittle wrote: How many zerglings should I keep to reasonably defend my base until I get a good patch of roaches out? It seems like I'd take a huge hit on army doing this... How many zerglings/spine crawlers you need depends solely on how much pressure you opponent is putting on you. Zerg if a very reactionary race so you need to be scouting at all times to see how much you need to defend. EDIT:@redlobster well if you go early gas, you won't be able to afford both zergling speed and an expansion at 15, so you should probably get you gas later at around 16 food or expand at around 20 instead. | ||
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RedLobster
4 Posts
How many zerglings/spine crawlers you need depends solely on how much pressure you opponent is putting on you. Zerg if a very reactionary race so you need to be scouting at all times to see how much you need to defend. Completely agree with you, thats usually why I get the early gas so that I have speedlings early for fast scouting. What would you recommend Soulous instead of the early gas? What's your friend code? 229 Jeffbelittle | ||
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Jeffbelittle
United States468 Posts
Also: How do you suggest I scout all the time? I've heard overlord but I get BEYOND nervous when it comes to using overlords because that's my food we are talking about! | ||
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RedLobster
4 Posts
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Soulous
United States133 Posts
On August 24 2010 07:59 Jeffbelittle wrote: Red, I added you. Also: How do you suggest I scout all the time? I've heard overlord but I get BEYOND nervous when it comes to using overlords because that's my food we are talking about! Well it is a bit difficult as zerg, but depending on the map, you should be able to see when your opponent is moving out with zerglings controlling the watchtowers or overlords to be able to react in time and make a few spines/units. On maps with shorter rush distance, such as Steppes, you probably shouldn't go with a 15 hatch for obvious reasons and make a few for units defense. | ||
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RedLobster
4 Posts
Well it is a bit difficult as zerg, but depending on the map, you should be able to see when your opponent is moving out with zerglings controlling the watchtowers or overlords to be able to react in time and make a few spines/units. On maps with shorter rush distance, such as Steppes, you probably shouldn't go with a 15 hatch for obvious reasons and make a few for units defense. For a small map like Steppes I've found that creep expansion does a good job scouting. Larger maps sacrificing some zerglings helps a lot. I leave one near their exit. It'll probably get sniped but that let's you know they're moving out | ||
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eLiE
Canada1039 Posts
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Jeffbelittle
United States468 Posts
I am very susceptible to harassment because my minds thinking as much as it possibly can already when I play this game. Add in that early reaper and I am swearing every curse word while pretty much ready to quit. | ||
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horoLA
Brazil50 Posts
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Twaxter
Canada190 Posts
Played Beta and was D+ in Brood War To stay on Par with a protoss or a terran, you need a 30% bigger economic advantage, this idealogy has been since brood war. I used to 11 hatch in brood war, and even double expand at times, if I saw forge fast expands. In StarCraft 2, this is changed slightly. but the idea is there. Terran has mules, which shows how their economy can be bigger than ours, while a toss, has chrono boost, which allows him to also power probes. A 1 base zerg can not beat a 1 base protoss, or terran. This is just how it goes in StarCraft. If you play of one base, you doing some sort of play, like 1 base muta, or baneling busts. Most build orders late game, revolve around a zerg with an expansion. Now, before Zergs just did 14 pool, 15 hatch, 13 pool 15 hatch, and even 16 hatches, but this was quickly countered, as terran's/protoss would easily shut it down with 2 gates, or a reaper pushes. Zergs now get speed upgrade before expansion, which allows them to safely expand at 20. I suggest you can a replay of known zerg players, who do this method, like Slush, IdrA, Machine. Cheers  | ||
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Calmwinds
57 Posts
14 pool 15 hatch is currently the standard zerg opening (lest reapers change this) that sets you up with a strong economy and reasonable defenses(pool before hatch) The idea is so that your drones can collect minerals from different patches, they will be more efficient in collecting resources overall, and since you have more overall mineral patches to saturate, you can of course have naturally a stronger economy, there is also another very important factor, that you can now inject 2 hatcheries, and get twice the larvae, this becomes very important, into the transition into mid game, where you can now manage some larvae to drone up, and some to produce army units and it doesn't seem or feel like much of a compromise. The expansion also sets you up to have some actual mid game force, the two gas geysers count for a lot. Off of one base it feels like you can barely get your hydralisk range, and produce hydralisk or barely get mutalisk, but once taking the expo, you are able to effectively make gas heavy units in quite the number(but it is indeed preferable to be thinking about another expansion at this point, to tech to hive, and get range attack/carapace upgrades as well as having an army). Also, it IS possible to get gas and still do a hatch at 15, although the mineral allowance is very tight, but still with a comfortable amount of time you can get zergling speed, an expo, and a spine crawler or two, and still be in good economic shape, but this requires good sense about any incoming early aggression, and you need to be trying to squeeze as many drones as you can without falling to said early aggression. Though naturally risk comes with every expansion, although the risk of having any expo is not too much from what I have experienced, 2 gate aggression is standard right now in ZvP. as soon as you see 2 gateways, it's time to throw down 2 spinecrawlers, delay the queen and get 6 zergling to surround the zealots, to buy you time to get some more zergling numbers, and get your queen up. Against terran, the most dangerous thing is a well timed 3 rax timing push that comes around 50 supply with a good number of marauder and marines coupled with stim, this generally occurs right after you have decently saturated your natural, but have not had enough time to actually "explode"[1] some units onto the field, as of course with anything uncertain it is best to scout, whether it be with an overlord, overseer, or running zerglings up the ramp (VERY USEFUL, as many terrans do not position rax correctly and you can see 3 of them, and to check army composition) [1]- The period of nonstop army production which is supported by your booming economy. Just for reference purposes, this the strength of an opening economy wise, the higher up the opening, the stronger it is economy wise, but the less safe it is against early game aggression. 1.Hatchery before pool(16 hatch, 15 pool, 14 hatch, 14 pool, 15 hatch 14 pool etc) 2.15 pool 16 hatch. or 14 pool 15 hatch 3.14 pool zergling speed, hatch around 20-21 (As this is when you cannot sufficiently spend minerals on everything, so it's a good time to expand) This is generally the compromise and midpoint between economy and safety 4. All roach rushes do aggression for you to take an expansion after aggression 5. 1 base mutalisk, sets you up for an expo as your mutalisk contain the terran 6. All other 1 base play is here | ||
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Bair
United States698 Posts
Why? More often than not, toss 2 gate me which makes this extremely hard to pull off. And if they 2 gate pressure transition to 3 gate + robo, there is not much you can do because your gas (and subsequently lair) comes too late for you to get enough anything to fight off a P ground army with colossi in it. Against standard 4 gate FE is more manageable, but still quite hard to defend against. Against terran, reaper openers have become very popular, and hellion harass has always been popular, so I do not expand until 25-30 food depending on what I scout. Against zerg, an FEing zerg is a dead zerg. | ||
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Murkyith14
United States111 Posts
Against Protoss, I find that 2gate is too difficult for me to defend against going hatch before pool, so I tend to pool on say, 14, and then hatch on 15. Against Zerg, I do the same thing as versus Terran. I always hatch before pool, and proceed to do mass queens. | ||
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Dave[9]
United States2365 Posts
15gas 14pool queen or 100 gas to speed (whichever happens first) take 2 off gas make another queen expand at around 20-22 next 100 gas goes to lair, your queen should pop out at the same time, and after lair starts put gas back and get two more extractors up so you can time getting your mutas up (around 5-6) when the spire is finished. If you can execute that decently, you will be in pretty damn good shape for the game, it's a solid opener against any 2gate or other rush's. Just very safe. You do have to worry about what kinds of things he can be doing while getting a spire, sometimes it may require you to do a tech switch to roaches. But it also means you need to work on muta micro if you take this route. It requires a pretty good amount of APM to pull off. | ||
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Floophead_III
United States1832 Posts
12 double extractor trick hatch FE followed by an 11 pool and double extractor trick 12 lord seems to actually be pretty effective at stopping 2 gates. It also honestly is pretty good in general. I'd like to see more detailed analysis on that opening, because I feel it really has merit. | ||
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Truffy
United States95 Posts
On August 24 2010 12:10 Bair wrote: Against zerg, an FEing zerg is a dead zerg. Not true at all, hatch first is a totally legitimate opening in ZvZ, its actually quite good. www.sc2win.com watch some of dimagas ZvZ 15 hatch 14 pool is quite common sets him up for an unbeatable mid game because the other Z seems to always decide since his pool is a bit earlier he should cut drones and try aggression. The key is lots of spine crawlers win against aggression. | ||
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DeltruS
Canada2214 Posts
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Subversion
South Africa3627 Posts
and by people i mean top pros. there is a lot of early pressure that is a little too hard to defend with a super fast FE. i used to go 15/16 hatch, im not favouring getting a pool and some lings out 1st. wow the 12 hatch looks really intriguing, def gonna try that. | ||
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Jeffbelittle
United States468 Posts
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fdsdfg
United States1251 Posts
So it loses to all 3 matchups, and now it's not a standard. | ||
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Randomaccount#77123
United States5003 Posts
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