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Alright heres the set up. TvP
Terran goes all in with a 7rax, reapers followed up with Marauders upgraded with Concussion. Is basically a loss for Protoss. There is not much a Protoss player can do. (Keep in mind I'm only a mid-high lvl Platinum player)
Exact build order for the Terran.
+ Show Spoiler +
6/11-----SCV
7/11-----Barracks
7/11-----Refinery
7/11-----SCV
8/11-----SCV
9/11-----TechLab
9/11-----Reaper
10/11----Reaper
11/11----Bunker
11/11----Supply Depot
11/11----Concussive Shell
11/19----Marauder
13/19----SCV
On the Protoss side of things, we have
+ Show Spoiler +
9/10--------pylon
9/10--------scout
------------- scout gets to base sees nothing built/building knows there is cheese
12/18------Gateway (this is simultaneous to the scout)
13-14/18--Assimilator and pylon
14-15/18--Cybercore
Once cyber core is placed zealot is in production
during all of build chronoboosting probes.
So my question is, how can you effectively counter this.while playing standard Protoss. IE 9pylon 12gate.
Truth and I played like 20 games trying to figure out both sides. IE how to make the reaper push that much more effective, and how to actually counter this.
Personally I think its game over once the marauder comes in to follow up.
Here is a video of us explaining the situation out, watch it to get a better idea of what I'm trying to say.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ySNyfNGA2mI
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basically with your scouting probe you have to go to the possibly proxy locations and block the tech lab from building (ie. you have to do this in every single PvT). There doesn't seem to be any other way.
Another thing to help slow it down is build placement. Make walls with your pylon/gateway/core so it isn't so easy for the reaper to run around killing probes. You should be doing this every PvT as well.
I've actually encountered a proxy reaper->marauder that incorporated the orbital command. I don't have the build order on me but it was pretty ridiculous.
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On August 11 2010 16:11 blabber wrote:
basically with your scouting probe you have to go to the possibly proxy locations and block the tech lab from building (ie. you have to do this in every single PvT). There doesn't seem to be any other way.
Another thing to help slow it down is build placement. Make walls with your pylon/gateway/core so it isn't so easy for the reaper to run around killing probes. You should be doing this every PvT as well.
I've actually encountered a proxy reaper->marauder that incorporated the orbital command. I don't have the build order on me but it was pretty ridiculous.
Think thats really the way. =(
Have to be on point with early game, no matter what. Generally I try and make a nice sim city thing going on when I play against Terran. But that game we showcased was game 15 or so. So in terms of building placement I was getting sloppy, just trying to get all my timings perfect.
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yeah I mean, I don't understand why Terran players don't do this 100% of the time. I know Huk does a 14gate build in his PvT and I would like to see him defend against something like this.
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Builds that rely on "I hope he doesn't see THIS" generally aren't game breaking, they rely on if someone scouts it or not.
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One guy tried that build vs me and i stomped him with fast stalkers ( chronoboost ) + probe cut followed by immortals after my second gate.
I don't really think it is a problem if you scout at 9.
Fast reapers really ruins your eco, so if he can't kill more than one or two probes you are ahead ( even if you cut and save chrono for your first stalker ).
Marauders are > stalkers but not when they are outnumbered.
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It's easy to defend with a 12 gate. You should have one zel/few probes chasing the first reaper, and your stalker should be out around the time the second reaper comes.
For the marauder followup, just pull probes, I think you can lose up to 7 probes and stay even, it's ridiculous.
How do I know this? I've used this build on Stepps up till about 700 diamond lmao. But I do admit you need pretty damn good micro to beat it.
Even if you lose ALOT of probes, as long as you can get to the Rax the games over, terran won't have another rax in his base, nor will he have time to bunker/put units, and even if he did it will be one rine/bunker max so a stalker can run right past it.
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On August 11 2010 16:19 Aberu wrote:
Builds that rely on "I hope he doesn't see THIS" generally aren't game breaking, they rely on if someone scouts it or not.
it really only matters if you scout the barracks before the tech lab starts. You're still going to have to deal with this nonsense even if you scout it like right when the tech lab starts
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We shall attempt some of these ideas.
I think my biggest flaw is my lack of using probes to actually attack for longer at his reapers.
But again, other than just raw build order, its 70%Micro and 30%luck getting out of this situation. I think >_<
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I have to first admit that the title of this thread confused me for a moment, I thought you meant using 7 barracks as a part of the build.
First thing's first, against Terran it's a good idea to be keeping your buildings close together in your main. Make it more difficult for the reapers to get at your probes.
One of the best ways you can deal with any sort of Terran proxy is to kill the SCV. The closer he builds to your base, the easier it'll be for you to scout it and kill it with a probe. The farther away he builds it, the longer it will take for the units to get to you.
If you actually scout the proxy, one option would be to throw down a forge to get a couple cannons up. It's okay to delay your standard build, because he's delaying his as well.
But assuming you open with a standard gateway, the reapers will undoubtedly get to cause some damage to you. Hold out as best as you can until you get stalkers. Even if the barracks is built in Terran's main, the first reaper will still get there before the stalker is out. Blizzard's said before that they're comfortable with this.
Assuming it's been chronoboosted, two Stalkers should be good to go by the time the marauder gets to your base. It may require some probe support, but you should be able to hold it off at this point.
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Just watched the youtube video, and here's whats wrong. Just ignore the bunker, your stalker outranges it, if it does complete just make sure the marauder does not get into it. Know that if he is going for a bunker, it will delay his marauder because of the later supply depot, unless he stays on 7 scv's instead of pumping them to 9(which would be the smart thing to do).
Lost way too many probes for no reason, horrible probe micro in general, which is what you need to beat it. Sentry followup was just retarded.
A trick is to stall with a zel but not use it, when its about to die just run probes to drive to reaper away so shields can go up. With two stalkers and a zel you will win very easily.
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On August 11 2010 16:11 blabber wrote:
I've actually encountered a proxy reaper->marauder that incorporated the orbital command. I don't have the build order on me but it was pretty ridiculous.
alright I think this is how it went
8rax
8refinery
8tech lab
8orbital command (in other words, don't build any SCVs beyond 8)
reaper
then add another reaper or marauder+slow as you see fit (also remember to build a supply depot). The timing for this build actually works out perfectly. This is pretty amazing because you have the econ of the MULE helping you.
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Haha, from what I'm getting out of this so far is. My lack of good micro really failed me.
Seeing as I'm no pro, getting flustered (even though we did it a million times) is gonna happen. Some fails can occur. But if that build is just that powerful, in the sense that a small mess up means a loss. While the terran player can have a few mess ups and still manage to come out on top. There is an issue there. =\
Also Marauders in bunker = 7 range. Stalker = 6 range
And running my zeal away to heal up is a 50/50 thing, because if hes focusing it down, its gonna die.
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Drop a pylon where tech lab goes, keep probe under rax when he lifts = win.
Remember that marauders are horrible against probes = win.
There's nothing wrong with the build, it's not impossible to beat, it's just a classic cheese. You can ask for help without suggesting it's broken, we won't bite.
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On August 11 2010 16:41 iEchoic wrote:
Drop a pylon where tech lab goes, keep probe under rax when he lifts = win.
Remember that marauders are horrible against probes = win.
There's nothing wrong with the build, it's not tough to beat, it's just a classic cheese. You can ask for help without suggesting it's broken, we won't bite.
Haha, I'm not saying its broken. I'm saying its ruthless, unless you play 100% as protoss.
Also, if you watch the game we put up, you'll see that the rax has its tech lab going up well before my scouting probe even has a chance to be anywhere near the hidden rax.
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It's tough to beat, requires good micro. You need to make stalkers, not zealots or sentries. Use stalkers to shoot marauders while pulling 3 or 4 probes at a time to physically block the marauders from getting at your stalker and to deal some damage. If he shoots a probe, pull it back and send it back to minerals. If he tries to run away, chase and kill with stalker. If he tries to run past the probes to get at the stalker, pull the stalker back. It's very tough to beat because if you let a stalker get hit with a concussion blast even once you could end up losing it. The reaper in the bunker is the harder part to deal with, especially due to SCVs being invincible half the time they are building the bunker.
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Oh I forgot to mention that forcing reapers to run rather than kite is VERY easy. You just have to have your first zel chasing, and manually control 4 probes to sandwich constantly. The attack animation of reapers pretty much guarantees he will take a few hits if you do this correctly. Works perfect until 2nd reaper is out, by which time you should have a chronoed stalker done.
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Why did you opt for a second reaper instead of a faster marauder follow up? I would imagine that the stalkers become the serious stopper to this all in, so countering appropriately would be more powerful.
As for how to stop it, with really good control I would imagine it to be much easier to hold. One solution could be to send the first zealot at the Terran's base to either make him chase your zealot, or lose all mining capabilities. After all, the zealot will get kited indefinitely, why not take the probe losses and counter?
And as a Terran player, when you have probes chasing your reaper it's actually some really scary stuff. You have to be really on the ball because workers aren't slow units and reapers are incredibly fragile. Making him run around gets less total shots off before the stalker comes out, thereby reducing the damage you take.
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![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-137800.jpg)
Just played this game immediately after reading this thread.
Normally against Terran, I build near my nexus, but he was random, so I had to build at my choke.
I saw there was no buildings in his main, so I sent my probe immediately to the top xel'naga, because that typically sees right there-- where the proxy normally is.
With the bunker, you just need to spot it quickly and get the surround with probes-- it's more difficult if he waits for the reaper to get there, but you CANNOT let the bunker get up. A fast zealot is a must just to keep the reaper occupied for a while. Use 4-6 probes and a zealot in different groups to keep the reaper running away as often as possible. Once your first stalker is up, any reapers are cake to deal with.
Always keep pumping stalkers-- a stalker just barely loses to a marauder, but wrecks reapers, so you can use a probe or two to turn the tide if the need arises, but you shouldn't have issues with only stalkers as long as the bunker didn't go up.
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On August 11 2010 16:20 Skee wrote:
Pfft, all-ins are dumb.
Agreed.
You'll learn nothing by playing like that
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On August 11 2010 17:23 Khrane wrote:Just played this game immediately after reading this thread. + Show Spoiler +
Normally against Terran, I build near my nexus, but he was random, so I had to build at my choke.
I saw there was no buildings in his main, so I sent my probe immediately to the top xel'naga, because that typically sees right there-- where the proxy normally is.
With the bunker, you just need to spot it quickly and get the surround with probes-- it's more difficult if he waits for the reaper to get there, but you CANNOT let the bunker get up. A fast zealot is a must just to keep the reaper occupied for a while. Use 4-6 probes and a zealot in different groups to keep the reaper running away as often as possible. Once your first stalker is up, any reapers are cake to deal with.
Always keep pumping stalkers-- a stalker just barely loses to a marauder, but wrecks reapers, so you can use a probe or two to turn the tide if the need arises, but you shouldn't have issues with only stalkers as long as the bunker didn't go up
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Totally checking this out in the morning. Thanks for actually having physical proof, instead of just blurting out counters 
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@ OP
the problem i saw was when your scout reached the T base, you just sent him around in circles at the base like he was going to throw down a rax right in front of you. When I scout T and I see nothing, I immediately send a probe off the min lines and begin checking proxy locations. You saw gas so you had to assume reapor. Your best bet to check was that back cliff area, but you did nothing to scout after you saw it was a proxy.
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On August 11 2010 17:32 Arby3k wrote:Show nested quote +On August 11 2010 17:23 Khrane wrote:Just played this game immediately after reading this thread. + Show Spoiler +
Normally against Terran, I build near my nexus, but he was random, so I had to build at my choke.
I saw there was no buildings in his main, so I sent my probe immediately to the top xel'naga, because that typically sees right there-- where the proxy normally is.
With the bunker, you just need to spot it quickly and get the surround with probes-- it's more difficult if he waits for the reaper to get there, but you CANNOT let the bunker get up. A fast zealot is a must just to keep the reaper occupied for a while. Use 4-6 probes and a zealot in different groups to keep the reaper running away as often as possible. Once your first stalker is up, any reapers are cake to deal with.
Always keep pumping stalkers-- a stalker just barely loses to a marauder, but wrecks reapers, so you can use a probe or two to turn the tide if the need arises, but you shouldn't have issues with only stalkers as long as the bunker didn't go up
. Totally checking this out in the morning. Thanks for actually having physical proof, instead of just blurting out counters
i wonder how this would have turned out if he hadn't placed his rax in the xel'naga range. great defense though
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On August 11 2010 17:46 purerythem wrote:Show nested quote +On August 11 2010 17:32 Arby3k wrote:On August 11 2010 17:23 Khrane wrote:Just played this game immediately after reading this thread. + Show Spoiler +
Normally against Terran, I build near my nexus, but he was random, so I had to build at my choke.
I saw there was no buildings in his main, so I sent my probe immediately to the top xel'naga, because that typically sees right there-- where the proxy normally is.
With the bunker, you just need to spot it quickly and get the surround with probes-- it's more difficult if he waits for the reaper to get there, but you CANNOT let the bunker get up. A fast zealot is a must just to keep the reaper occupied for a while. Use 4-6 probes and a zealot in different groups to keep the reaper running away as often as possible. Once your first stalker is up, any reapers are cake to deal with.
Always keep pumping stalkers-- a stalker just barely loses to a marauder, but wrecks reapers, so you can use a probe or two to turn the tide if the need arises, but you shouldn't have issues with only stalkers as long as the bunker didn't go up
. Totally checking this out in the morning. Thanks for actually having physical proof, instead of just blurting out counters i wonder how this would have turned out if he hadn't placed his rax in the xel'naga range. great defense though
The only difference would've been that I wouldn't know WHERE it was. I knew right when I saw 3 in gas at his main and nothing else, it HAD to be proxy barracks, so I prepared for it. So it would've looked the same except that when I pushed out, I would've had to look for it.
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I am a big fan of going early stalker pressure against Terran. I almost always go 12-gate stalker (sometimes dual stalker), however 2 days ago, just for kicks, I decided to try a 10-gate early stalker pressure opening to see how effective it would be.
As luck would have it, someone tried this build against me that game. ("Good old rock, nothing beats that!" -Bart)
http://www.mediafire.com/?9a8kb89ze0af1le
Now, I could have definitely played more defensively with my stalkers, and I would have been able to hold off the marauders quite easily by pulling a couple probes off the line. So the counter build you are looking for is a 10-gate stalker opening.
Also, btw, you can use more than 3 probes to attack the reaper?
PS...this replay has an epic finish.
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well normally on close distance map, protoss can go 9pylon 9 gate, 11 gas 14core so you can have 13 zealot, and a 15 stalker or so, anyway a very fast stalker, the time the stalker isnt out yet, you can block his techlab with a pylon or you can distract the reaper with 3/4 probes and a zealot. if terran fails its kind of gg when protoss transition into 4warpgates.
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Just theorycrafting here,but wouldnt a 2 stalker opening easily beat this all-in?(12 gate,14 gas, 15 gate 15 cyber 16 pylon, see the topic where gnial describes this opening)
The 2 stalkers arrive just as fast as a normal 12-gate stalker and ofc 2 stalkers can kill anything that is being thrown at you. I think the key is just to not loose too many probes(you will have 15,he will have 9,so you can loose like 5-6-7 probes and still be on a lead cause you will have 2 stalkers out). Im willing to test my theory,if sb wants to have a testing session PM me
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On August 11 2010 17:57 HEhatesusall wrote:
Just theorycrafting here,but wouldnt a 2 stalker opening easily beat this all-in?(12 gate,14 gas, 15 gate 15 cyber 16 pylon,
you cant affort 2 gates AND an core at 15 t_T
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On August 11 2010 17:58 EnvoYofAiuR wrote:Show nested quote +On August 11 2010 17:57 HEhatesusall wrote:
Just theorycrafting here,but wouldnt a 2 stalker opening easily beat this all-in?(12 gate,14 gas, 15 gate 15 cyber 16 pylon, you cant affort 2 gates AND an core at 15 t_T
You halt probe production at 15. As timing would have it, if you scout after the 12-gate, you end up with 250 minerals and 100 gas exactly as the cyber core and 2nd gateway finish at the same time.
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still i dont see the benefit of 2 gates, 1 is more than enough, you can use an early gate and chronoboost your first zealot and chrono boost your next 2 stalkers, its kind of the same with better economy.
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
moved to strategy section
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On August 11 2010 18:03 EnvoYofAiuR wrote:
still i dont see the benefit of 2 gates, 1 is more than enough, you can use an early gate and chronoboost your first zealot and chrono boost your next 2 stalkers, its kind of the same with better economy.
Its the same if you plan on being passive with those first 2 stalkers. Here, I'll just link you to this (http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=140629), there are a bunch of replays you can watch (although I do delay the stalkers a bit in most of them for a better economy, there are a whole bunch of timing advantages you can have getting 2 stalkers out at the same time instead of just 1 at a time)
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Yeah fast 2 gate stalker (12 gate, 14 gas, (probe cut) 15 gate, 15 core, 16 pylon should be fine against this if you probe micro well. Getting the zealot is a waste and I have nfi why you get a 13/14 pylon
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That reaper was allowed to do waaaayy too much damage, chase it with your zealot and 4 probes till your stalker pops out, then keep your friggin troops at the choke against marauders. To fend this marauder all in off you need 1 Stalker and 2 Zealos (quote by WhiteRa) and you cant allow them to get on a run (i.e. where they can abuse their cs), always bring probes in these situations as they allow you, if microed correctly to surround marauders (remember to use the hold command to surround stuff) and stop them from kiting you.
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actually sending 5-6 probes at an early reaper is pretty effective but you have to be quick about moving back the ones hes focusing, probes are surprisingly fast.
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lol please explain how how you get a stalker out before a 7rax reaper...
i cheese with 9rax proxy reaper and against protoss by the time i get into their base they don't even have a chronoboost zealot out yet. your bunker is almost completed by the time the chrono zealot comes out, by which time it's too late.
i always go 9rax in random 2v2 because you can so easily defend against every type of early rush with just a single reaper and a couple of marauders.
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On August 11 2010 16:45 Arby3k wrote:Show nested quote +On August 11 2010 16:41 iEchoic wrote:
Drop a pylon where tech lab goes, keep probe under rax when he lifts = win.
Remember that marauders are horrible against probes = win.
There's nothing wrong with the build, it's not tough to beat, it's just a classic cheese. You can ask for help without suggesting it's broken, we won't bite. Haha, I'm not saying its broken. I'm saying its ruthless, unless you play 100% as protoss. Also, if you watch the game we put up, you'll see that the rax has its tech lab going up well before my scouting probe even has a chance to be anywhere near the hidden rax.
No it's not, there isn't even refinery completed when your scout probe passes the barracks.
EDIT: For the map, you always must check behind the rocks, most common place for proxy. And if they hide it somewhere else, it makes the route to your base longer giving you time to get proper defense.
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EPT
