What my opponent did was a 14pool 13gas 16queen 19nest

im not sure if this is the best ling baneling or not but here is what i did

10overpool 12 gas 12lings(6) and then on to roaches

i was able to get over there with my first 6 lings before he had more than 2 out and i was able to kill his nest before his queen or his other lings pop.

and finally the replay
http://mfi.re/?5hyxgwkzijwigqk

tell me what you think

Buffy

Sweden665 Posts

July 14 2010 07:34 GMT

So, all you did was to rush him in general ? :S

EDIT:Haven't had the chance to watch rep since bnet is down, but what map was this btw ?

techtron

74 Posts

July 14 2010 07:49 GMT

what is the normal roach build order, cant seem to find one didnt know if this was worthy of its own thread

LF9

United States537 Posts

July 14 2010 09:26 GMT

Usually it's like 10 overlord, 14 pool, 14 gas, 16 overlord, Queen as soon as pool is done, and Roach Warren as soon as you have minerals, save larva so you have 3 for Roaches as soon as the Roach Warren comes out, and use all the larva from the first spawn for Roaches. You should have a good number of roaches (like 8 or so) to defend from aggression like Bling + speedling busts, or to show pressure otherwise. You should be early drone scouting in this matchup IMO, so play reactively after you build your initial army of Roaches. You may need more Roaches, you may need to expand and power drones, or you may need to get Lair tech. Hydras are the best counter for Mutas in this matchup unless you're playing off one base for some reason. A player with good Muta contol will make it really, really hard for you to cover everything important with spores alone, and I honestly don't think that massing Queens is a solid counter to anything. Useful for transfusion to help against busts, but overall I think it's a mineral sink and delays your tech too much.

Orome

Switzerland11984 Posts

July 14 2010 09:43 GMT

There have been countless threads on this. Roaches just don't work in ZvZ atm.

Kurumi

Poland6130 Posts

July 14 2010 09:49 GMT

Protip: If Your opponent is going 14 pool,do 12/13 pool.
Protip2: Learn to micro and don't waste 5 lings on one baneling,micro is deciding factor of winning in ZvZ.

NeoLearner

Belgium1847 Posts

July 14 2010 10:59 GMT

On July 14 2010 18:49 Kurumi wrote:
Protip: If Your opponent is going 14 pool,do 12/13 pool.
Protip2: Learn to micro and don't waste 5 lings on one baneling,micro is deciding factor of winning in ZvZ.

Protip 1 doesn't seem possible on most maps. Maybe on scrap station and DO with the short air distance. When do you drone scout to do that? Because short of going 12 pool blind, you won't have the scouting information in time.
Protip2 is the skill to have in ZvZ.

On July 14 2010 18:26 LF9 wrote:
You should have a good number of roaches (like 8 or so) to defend from aggression like Bling + speedling busts, or to show pressure otherwise.

I find pressuring with (slow) roaches to be quite dangerous in ZvZ. If your opponent has placed his overlords correctly and sees you moving out, he can do a ling backstab with his speedlings and be back in time to defend. If his lings get a nice surround, they can still hurt roaches. With a crawler he should be able to hold you off.
If you do this, never forget to block of your ramp! If the lings get in, it'll hurt big time.
Biggest problem with roaches I see is the second part, faster lair. If he gets muta's out, he has instant map control. You will have to spend minerals on spores and tech to hydras. He'll get a free expansion and it's all down hill from there.

KaiserJohan

Sweden1808 Posts

July 14 2010 11:34 GMT

Protip3: if you opponent is going x pool, do x+2 pool.

It was pretty fun we both had overlord in each others bases on scrap, and we scouted and waited for opponent pool comming up. Eventually he put his down at 16, so I put my down at 17. There's absolutely no reason to go 10-13 pool unless he 6pools, you are just going to loose economically.

Swede

New Zealand853 Posts

July 14 2010 12:25 GMT

Problem is if they don't go banelings then you're fucked economically. And you can't scout for a banelings nest BEFORE doing 10 overpool.

It may be a solution if they DO go banelings, but whether they do or not depends entirely on luck without a scout.

My 3 most successful solutions have been:
1. Get my own banelings
2. Get fast roaches
3. 1 base with lings/spine crawlers until you get hydras/mutas up

PrinceXizor

United States17713 Posts

July 14 2010 17:06 GMT

#10

I just do the fast ling speed build but get +1 armor instead of ling speed and go from there.

Ecael

United States6703 Posts

July 14 2010 17:19 GMT

#11

On July 14 2010 20:34 KaiserJohan wrote:

Show nested quote +

Couldn't you have just 14hatch'd by that point and still be fast enough to respond with pool and gas lol.

On July 14 2010 19:59 NeoLearner wrote:

Show nested quote +

I personally have been trying to avoid playing ling-bling by going FE - double spine+queen block - roach wherever I can, scouting on 10 w/ extractor trick tends to give you enough information to react with a hatch first build instead. Though I have been having a bit more problem with bling first builds, most people don't try to do that since speedling runbys tends to be scarier and hidden blings hard to pull off against diligent opponents.

I really agree with the slow roach part though, a runby is pretty devastating, so I've been going queen on ramp block mostly. A slow roach push does do wonders on steppes though when you are careful to queen block ramp and apply enough pressure to prevent backstabs. Mute isn't too big of an issue for any FE builds, but is a huge pain for 1base roach. Not like anyone is seriously considering 1base roach though?

vileChAnCe

Canada525 Posts

July 14 2010 17:22 GMT

#12

man i've been fast expanding and throwing down a spine crawler and blocking my ramp with roaches and queen.... or drones or lings depending on how fast he is. i've been winning the majority

theBullFrog

United States515 Posts

July 14 2010 17:43 GMT

#13

Not sure if you tried this, but if you watch day9's review of zelniq's mass queen opener, it stops banelings (its worked a 100% for me, i'm in plat though.)

Noocta

France12578 Posts

July 14 2010 17:52 GMT

#14

On most of the ladder maps, u can have roach blocking your ramp before the speedling / baneling come.
From that, i usually play a 1 base Muta or a Nydus with Speed roaches.

But yeah.. some maps don't allow this, and force u to banelings war.

vileChAnCe

Canada525 Posts

July 14 2010 17:57 GMT

#15

On July 15 2010 02:52 Noocta wrote:
On most of the ladder maps, u can have roach blocking your ramp before the speedling / baneling come.
From that, i usually play a 1 base Muta or a Nydus with Speed roaches.

But yeah.. some maps don't allow this, and force u to banelings war.

you should be able to sign a treaty with your opponent to not allow baneling wars >

like the geneva convention