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Hi, I was wondering if there was any specific build already given out or created for this strat.
In Broodwar, Darktemplar + phoenix to kill overlords was very viable against zerg. I am wondering if it could be implemented into SC2 (with a few tweaking here and there)
Basically you would put the zerg detectionless and bring up darktemplars. Have anyone tried/attempted to create a build for this?
I know overseers have a lot more HP than in BW, but imo if you go stalker/zealot/darktemplars and 6-12 phoenixes, I think you could either kill the overseers before they can detect dts or stalkers/zealots can be the ones taking damages while the phoenixes kill the overseers...
I was watching Nony and Day9s VODS about going early stargate and mass phoenixes, I think this could be a viable transition into Dark templar (although it is not the same tech tree at all)
Post your opinions, I am very curious about this 
PS: I could test it on the BO tester, but i have a new pc and need to download starcraft etc again..
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DTs are relatively more expensive in SC2, making it closer to an all-in choice than it was in BW. The problem with phoenixes (and with sairs, for that matter) is that a critical mass of hydralisks stops your overlord harass dead, although it gives you significant map control.
I think the success of the DT/sair builds against Z in BW had a lot to do with the fact that DTs could efficiently be used as harass/contain units - the same is much harder to do in SC2.
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In BW DT/Sair was a solid opening because it transitioned so easily into high templar tech and also was very flexibile against many zerg openings. It was not meant to be this unbeatable army that would kill everything and all detection; it was just a way to contain zerg and threaten expansions while gaining tech you would get anyways smoothly.
In SC2, having the DT building doesn't give you HT's and HT's aren't even the absolute best choice for tech (over colossus), so there is no transition out of the build. In addition, in BW OL speed was needed to deal w/ DT's, but in sc2 overseers come a lot faster.
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On June 14 2010 16:41 ketomai wrote:
In BW DT/Sair was a solid opening because it transitioned so easily into high templar tech and also was very flexibile against many zerg openings. It was not meant to be this unbeatable army that would kill everything and all detection; it was just a way to contain zerg and threaten expansions while gaining tech you would get anyways smoothly.
In SC2, having the DT building doesn't give you HT's and HT's aren't even the absolute best choice for tech (over colossus), so there is no transition out of the build. In addition, in BW OL speed was needed to deal w/ DT's, but in sc2 overseers come a lot faster.
Man, think about it, the OP had some kind of revelatation here:
maybe having 2 dt morph into an archon might help with later transitioning into more viable builds
researching ground shield, then going archons + immortals + zealots once the dt/phoenix harass is refuted is a cool idea which i will try out once beta comes back
although i play terran, i will experiment a little with all races until retail version is finally here
also, even though ol speed is needed is sc:bw, now it is more expensive to morph overlord into overseer.
losing the overseer can be crucial, while in sc:bw losing an overlord was nothing, due to the fact that there were around 6 in the area anyways.
so while you harass, you make immortals and zealots, than morph your dt's into archons and atack with dt/archon/immortal/zealot/phoenix army.
this army can be sustained from a 2 warpgate 1 robo 1 stargate 1base, maybe even better is 4warpgate 2robo 2stargate 2base.
Now is one of those moments i hate so much that the servers are down
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It doesn't work, I've triedit many times. Something about sair/dt was that you also gained mass air control and you could kill tons of OL's in teh process. I don't know what it is but Phoenixes just odn't seem that good about killing mass OL even when you have a decent amoutn. That coupled with the fact that Zerg air can actually compete with mass phoenix and that there is no splash and hydras move uber fast on creep... and that you can morph an overseer as soon as you see the first one is going to go down.... yeah
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I actually have a cast on Youtube that transitioned exactly into what you're wondering. It was a really ugly silver-ish game at the time but by the end I went with phoenix and DTs and won, so its a nice example.
It can work but...
A: you need to survive. even if you rush to starport, you need a good number of phoenixes to deal with any ground army (I'd say 5 at the very least)
B: it has some timing issues that you will need to practice. DTs and Phoenixes are both very squishy, you have to practice sniping overseers, then pulling back and immediately hitting with DTs.
C: You can't forget about graviton beam! 
I'd love to try a game where I actually TRY to go DT and phoenix. The challenge is trying to safely expand considering how weak you'd be early on. And you will need to expand, its a very gas heavy build. Let me play with YABOT today while I watch E3 and get back to you.
Edit: DT phoenix is very susceptible if your opponent has more than say, 3 or 4 overseers on their main army. If that's the case, I would probably use my phoenixes to harass and move out of DT into something else.
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its a pretty gas heavy build, so you'll have to expand at least once... Also, since spore crawlers are now mobile, you may have a harder time, as they'd be effective against the phoenixes and are detectors for the DTs.
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meh, the build seems to do ok on desert oasis, unlike with BW i think you have to go all in with this build.
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On June 14 2010 14:57 phamou wrote:
I know overseers have a lot more HP than in BW
Wait... what?!
There aren't any overseers in BW, nor do they have more HP than overlords do in BW.
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hydraling timing push will kill this build imo.
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What is the magic number of phoenixes to kill overseers in 1 shot? in 2 shot?
What if, you go 1 gate 1 stargate, get 5-6 phoenixes (like day9 VODS), while you harass and use graviton beam, you tech to dts.
then once you reach that "magic number of phoenixes" you can push out, 1 shotting or 2shotting any overseer that comes into play. As long as you hold up and have 1 expansion (ie: blistering sands where you can completely wall off and cannon up),
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On June 14 2010 23:41 phamou wrote:
What is the magic number of phoenixes to kill overseers in 1 shot? in 2 shot?
What if, you go 1 gate 1 stargate, get 5-6 phoenixes (like day9 VODS), while you harass and use graviton beam, you tech to dts.
then once you reach that "magic number of phoenixes" you can push out, 1 shotting or 2shotting any overseer that comes into play. As long as you hold up and have 1 expansion (ie: blistering sands where you can completely wall off and cannon up),
Phoenixes are pretty damn fast so I don't think your count is as important for sniping overlords. They can shoot while moving as well which is a huge plus.
I really think you will need at least 2 gates because anyone going for a stargate and then DTs will find it really expensive. It takes nearly 1000 minerals for the buildings alone. god knows how much gas.
One thing to consider might be void rays. I can see a void ray harass/cheese transition into DT really well.
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Most zerg players will toss 1 or 2 spore crawlers around their mineral line when they see phx's anyway, so what's the point of DT harass at that point? Blink Stalkers is a much smoother transition into DTs.
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actually just yesterday i started working on a fast DT pheonix opening to use against zerg + terran, you get ur first dt out at 5:08 (real time) which is around 38 pop and u get a pheonix out 15 sec later, the purpose is that you have to first dt go knocking on the expo/front door to draw the opponents attention, and then you have a pheonix spot a pylon that can warp in units into the main, so that when the pheonix arrives you can get immediately warp in 2 dts and harass the main.
and as soon as the first dt+pheonix are in progress of being made u lay out your nexus for your expo, also you have 5 zels and 1 sentry with about 100+ energy to help defend your expo
i really wish i could test it in real game as it seems pretty viable while i was trying it out on different maps.
i have it planned out a little differently against terran, wish there was someway to save replays i have just been using the map editor and "testing document" to play
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On June 14 2010 23:41 phamou wrote:
What is the magic number of phoenixes to kill overseers in 1 shot? in 2 shot?
What if, you go 1 gate 1 stargate, get 5-6 phoenixes (like day9 VODS), while you harass and use graviton beam, you tech to dts.
then once you reach that "magic number of phoenixes" you can push out, 1 shotting or 2shotting any overseer that comes into play. As long as you hold up and have 1 expansion (ie: blistering sands where you can completely wall off and cannon up),
To kill an overseer, you need 25 unupgraded phoenix shots (counts both attacks).
To kill an overlord, you need 20 unupgraded phoenix shots.
This means that 7 phoenixes can kill overlords quite effectively in 3 volleys but it would take 11 to kill them in 2 volleys.
Overseers take 9 phoenixes for 3 volleys and 13 for 2 volleys.
Upgrades are quite useful in this case though. When you have +1 air weapons:
Overseers take 20 shots.
Overlords take 17 shots.
You then need only 6 phoenixes to kill an overlords in 3 volleys and 9 to kill in 2 volleys.
Overseers take 7 phoenixes for 3 volleys and 11 for 2 volleys.
Basically, the +1 upgrade is quite significant since it reduces the number of phoenixes needed to kill overlords/overseers effectively by 1 - 2. 6-7 phoenixes is feasible but it is still a considerably investment (1050 min/700 gas for 7 phoenixes) and I do not think that you would have much gas left over for DTs if you try to get quick phoenixes.
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Lol...OP prolly never played BW x] Phoenixes and overseers were never in BW
Regardless, I can't see this being viable and I've tried many times on the diamond ladder.
The reason why Phoenix/DT isn't really that viable is for several reasons:
1. Phoenix dont' give absolute air superiority the way corsairs did. Corsairs had splash, which allowed them to essentially rape all Zerg air once a critical mass is reached. The only Zerg air unit they didn't rape was Devourers, which Zerg (almost) never gets because it's so expensive and inefficient in the long run.
2. Hydras are much more powerful in SC2. Their DPS is a lot higher, while in terms of survivability Phoenix haven't grown much from the corsair. In other words, it's a lot easier to destroy Phoenix than it was to destroy Corsairs.
3. In BW, going DTs meant that you could go for storm/HT tech at the same time. Due to the way templar tech works now, you have to build an additional tech structure (both of which are extremely expensive) in order to get DTs and HTs. In BW, even if your DTs didn't do a lot of damage, you were still relatively safe due to your ability to get storm. In SC2, if your DTs fail, you most likely lost. Even though you can morph Archons from your DTs, just having archons will definitely NOT be enough to keep you alive. You absolutely need some form of AoE (read HT or colossi) in order to survive in PvZ.
4. Furthermore, some Zergs will just get spore crawlers, which will just negate DTs very easily. Additionally, good Zergs will just morph another overseer if they see their first overseer being attacked. The difference is that in BW, corsairs could kill overlords en mass with their splash; Phoenix must kill overlords one at a time, reducing their detection-killing efficiency.
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If you morph an overlord with low HP into an overseer, does the cocoon get full HP?
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I think this kind of strat is something you cannot rush into. If you try to do an all in with it and fail you will lose. This strat can be very powerful into a transition once you saturate your second base or start to get the third base. Having a strong base army first with phoenixes and DTs can be relatively better off in the long run. Plus you can mix it up by harassing the front and dropping in with DTs with phoenix support towards the mineral lines or picking off important buildings
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Wouldn't the Z be tempted to make some spores in order to stop the phoenix harass and to be able to move out from base? And spores will counter both units quite ok.
And after that i am pretty sure that Z will have enough hydra to cover the overseers and fight the P army after P has gone phoenix/dt.
P has to follow two tech branches for this strat. Twilight council, dark shrine, stargate. And Z only has to go evolution chamber, lair, hydra den which are quite common anyway.
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uhhh you can actually make a pretty decent push using phoenix, dt's and zealots.
you need to have zealots though. dt's are way too expensive to send them in without help.
You figure on the zerg getting hydralisks to counter phoenix and then come in zeals with DT help while you just have 6 or so phoenix patrolling the air... It's a pretty cool combo. Weak against banelings though. And you'll want the +1 air weapons upgrade for phoenix.
It's gas heavy for sure.. But there are huge rewards... Even if you can't push against the zerg due to spore crawlers or D you can take map control and feel pretty safe doing so. You can force them to make several to many overseers and each overseer is 2 hydralisks.
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You're going to get your face stomped if the zerg hits a critical mass of hydras, like 20+. Once he hits those numbers, you need either colossi or high templar.
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On June 15 2010 04:39 DuneBug wrote:
uhhh you can actually make a pretty decent push using phoenix, dt's and zealots.
you need to have zealots though. dt's are way too expensive to send them in without help.
You figure on the zerg getting hydralisks to counter phoenix and then come in zeals with DT help while you just have 6 or so phoenix patrolling the air... It's a pretty cool combo. Weak against banelings though. And you'll want the +1 air weapons upgrade for phoenix.
It's gas heavy for sure.. But there are huge rewards... Even if you can't push against the zerg due to spore crawlers or D you can take map control and feel pretty safe doing so. You can force them to make several to many overseers and each overseer is 2 hydralisks.
The OP was making a comparison to the BW sair/DT build, which was NOT a "pushing" build. It was a harassment build that allowed you to pressure and contain the Zerg, while being able to safely expand and build your forces.
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It sure is viable, you just need really good multitask.
Don't do it without some form of FE build (either Gate/Forge or double gate into Nexus).
You need to be harassing drones with DTs, constantly moving your Phoenix around all while macroing up/building from some warpgates, getting upgrades, and storm. Expand spotter pylons to all sides of your main to avoid drops/nydus play. Cannon according to your needs and based on his tech.
Also, don't forget, Phoenix can harass too! If there's no hydras or static defense around, throw out a couple Graviton Beams on Drones/Queens and pick em off if there are no DTs near. Also, a +1 upgrade on Phoenix reduces the number of hits needed to kill a drone to two. I'm unsure, but it probably also helps kill Overseers/Overlords faster.
As soon as you think you have time to get your third up, do it.
Remember, off of a FE build you have plenty of gas. It won't be obnoxiously expensive to tech straight to Templar or Collosi. If you fail to do damage to Zerg however, you will be behind.
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I do wonder if perhaps vs Zerg DTs should be considered in conjuction with feedback/ blink instead. Overseer snipe with feedback/blink, DT to force retreat. 10 gate pressure to forge expo quad gas might be able to pull it off before Zerg can fully establish 3rd. Might not be possible due to gas, but you wouldn't need storm or amulet for feedback. Zealots as a mineral sink would at least give you some ground presence.
Probably should show zeals in early game to prevent too strong of a drone pump. Hm, not sure how timing would work on that.
DT Phoenix just seems too weak on ground. Twilight already leads to both Templar techs instead of quickly trying to split your tech tree. Mineral buildup would allow nexus upon push.
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This is a harass option, but the tech costs too much without a safe transition. You get the long ass DT tech and you get a lot of Phoenixes to hunt Overseers effectively. After your harass, you can really only go to HTs in a cost effective manner which takes longer and more money. Perhaps if both Templar tech were combines, but sadly it isn't.
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I find Speedlot-->HT a more useful addition to Pheonixes than early DTs. A 1 gate 1 stargate opening (with +1 air weapons, for good measure) can pressure a fast-expanding Zerg quite effectively while expanding.
DT tech seems more compelling when Zerg is on more than two bases. (Particularly once you get obs, and can snipe creep tumors! Slow those hydras down.)
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the problem is overseers morph so freaking fast. hydras are kinda a must against protoss so if defended properly no this wont work very often
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On June 15 2010 10:28 Leeoku wrote:
the problem is overseers morph so freaking fast. hydras are kinda a must against protoss so if defended properly no this wont work very often
I doubt that's the problem if there really is a problem - Sair/DT (one base tech or two base) was viable in BW when all overlords had detection (instead of 150/100 Overseers) and Sairs couldn't lift ground units. The HT followup is slower because DTs cost a lot of extra gas with their 100/250 building and extra 25 gas each, though.
For a one-base build, I would try something like DT expand Stargate --> Phoenix/DT harass & contain --> expand while teching HT/Speedlot or Colossus/Speedlot. You might also try DTs into blink Stalkers; blink costs the same as a Stargate and Stalkers are quite a bit easier on the gas budget for their firepower than Phoenix, while retaining the Phoenix ability to harass + snipe overseers + GTFO if it's too dangerous. I'd probably want to follow that up with forge upgrades and Robo obs Colossus.
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so gas heavy, 2 bases required, by the time Zerg should already be decently prepared
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EPT
