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So far, in all the ladder maps in SC2, the main base is built on a location with a ramp or choke as entrance.
It has become an essential part of the strategy, especially for Terran and Protoss (since they can block the ramp).
Does all the races still has a fair chance to win if the map is designed like War3? (without a narrow choke or ramp to the main base)
I do think there should be some ladder maps with a more open space approach in the location of the main. This will open up a lot of new strategies and I do feel even Terran can play well, without using a choke. (they can make it themselves, just slower)
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On May 20 2010 12:20 DarkwindHK wrote:
So far, in all the ladder maps in SC2, the main base is built on a location with a ramp or choke as entrance.
It has become an essential part of the strategy, especially for Terran and Protoss (since they can block the ramp).
Does all the races still has a fair chance to win if the map is designed like War3? (without a narrow choke or ramp to the main base)
I do think there should be some ladder maps with a more open space approach in the location of the main. This will open up a lot of new strategies and I do feel even Terran can play well, without using a choke. (they can make it themselves, just slower)
i think teching would be hard because ramp can protect you with less units..but if its open you cant tech at all.
so no i dont think they all do, zerg couldnt protect expos either
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United States24690 Posts
Although sc1 and sc2 are different... in many respects they are the same and it is pretty clear that ramps are almost a necessity for balanced maps in sc1.
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While I understand it is harder to tech without a ramp, but how does that "imbalance" the map? Everyone has the same problem, it just mean you need to stay tier 1 longer.
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Hmm, I disagree with the idea that ramps are a necessity in SCII due to the fact that there is no high ground advantage except the sight thing. Really, I feel that having a small choke is basically equivalent because it allows for a defender's advantage (the bigger arc) that a ramp gives. As far as blocking it off, most people use walls and buildings to help make it easier anyway. Also, Kulas Ravine has no ramps, and I'd say that it's a pretty damn awesome map. 
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I forsee every single zerg just massing speedlings if ramps/chokes do not exist. terrans and protoss are going to have to build a wall with the buildings one way or the other.
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United States24690 Posts
I think we should be clear about what 'ramp' means in this conversation. Does a narrow choke without an elevation change a la kulas ravine counts as a 'ramp'? SC1 had many maps with chokes that weren't ramps I suppose.
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ah starcraft 2 plays. 'we don't understand new map, it not like old map, it either needs to be like old map or needs to be removed we not korea here'
User was temp banned for this post.
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Heavy zerg imba... Nuff said
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On May 20 2010 12:42 micronesia wrote:
I think we should be clear about what 'ramp' means in this conversation. Does a narrow choke without an elevation change a la kulas ravine counts as a 'ramp'? SC1 had many maps with chokes that weren't ramps I suppose.
Any ramp, it can be no elevation, it can be water, it can be lava.... just chokes points.
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On May 20 2010 12:42 micronesia wrote:
I think we should be clear about what 'ramp' means in this conversation. Does a narrow choke without an elevation change a la kulas ravine counts as a 'ramp'? SC1 had many maps with chokes that weren't ramps I suppose.
For the intent the OP seems to have in this discussion I'd say that a small choke of any point counts as a 'ramp' he is suggesting WC3 style maps where there was no real chokes or ramps to wall off on most maps. The problem with this style in SC2 is that in WC3 the trees provide some kind of cover on the back-side of your base at least to T1 ground armies. In SC2 there is no trees to do this with so it really becomes a necessity to have a raised base or at the very least a medium to narrow choke point.
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i think teching would be hard because ramp can protect you with less units..but if its open you cant tech at all.
Question is, is it really balanced to be able to tech that fast?
I mean stuff like early banshees, with just 4-5 marines at the blocked ramp keeping you perfectly safe from anything until your T3units arrive?
Or zealot -sentry-sentry at a ramp being able to hold off pretty much anything unitl you finished teching to for example immortals, or void rays?
Make the ramps a little thinner and longer, and we can see the mothership rush become viable again 
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On May 20 2010 12:56 morimacil wrote:Show nested quote +i think teching would be hard because ramp can protect you with less units..but if its open you cant tech at all. Question is, is it really balanced to be able to tech that fast? I mean stuff like early banshees, with just 4-5 marines at the blocked ramp keeping you perfectly safe from anything until your T3units arrive? Or zealot -sentry-sentry at a ramp being able to hold off pretty much anything unitl you finished teching to for example immortals, or void rays? Make the ramps a little thinner and longer, and we can see the mothership rush become viable again
Good maps have a balance of rush and tech viability as well as economy build viability. Bad maps focus too heavily on one or the other. No chokes at all and the map becomes a rush-fest, too tight of chokes/bases and the map becomes a tech-fest. Too big and too spread out the map becomes and drawn out eco-game. A really strong map will balance all three of these together. So are 'ramps' essential for SC2, not necessarily, but will a wide-open map with no choke or ramp of any kind work?Absolutely not.
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On May 20 2010 12:56 morimacil wrote:Show nested quote +i think teching would be hard because ramp can protect you with less units..but if its open you cant tech at all. Question is, is it really balanced to be able to tech that fast? I mean stuff like early banshees, with just 4-5 marines at the blocked ramp keeping you perfectly safe from anything until your T3units arrive? Or zealot -sentry-sentry at a ramp being able to hold off pretty much anything unitl you finished teching to for example immortals, or void rays? Make the ramps a little thinner and longer, and we can see the mothership rush become viable again
being able to tech adds more variation to the game. Would you really prefer every game just being mass tier 1 units for the first 10 minutes?
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Russian Federation145 Posts
With things as they are now, there is NO WAY for a terran to stop 2gate agression without a zealot-tight wall. There is just no way.
Rampless maps will happen when scvs put their hard hats back on.
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You can only have a non choke entrance if you have an extra long travel time for ground units.
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My point is...out of may be 10 maps, why we cannot have 1 that is tech favored and 1 that is rush favored? That means you will need to adapt to the map, and not stick to the same strategy every game.
I do not think Zerg will win unopposed even in maps without a choke to defend.
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On May 20 2010 12:31 DarkwindHK wrote:
While I understand it is harder to tech without a ramp, but how does that "imbalance" the map? Everyone has the same problem, it just mean you need to stay tier 1 longer.
maybe the races would still be equal, but it would be "imbalanced" because teching or fast expanding would no longer be viable. the only good strat would be mass tier 1, kind of like a 3v3 game.
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On May 20 2010 13:04 Luddite wrote:Show nested quote +On May 20 2010 12:31 DarkwindHK wrote:
While I understand it is harder to tech without a ramp, but how does that "imbalance" the map? Everyone has the same problem, it just mean you need to stay tier 1 longer. maybe the races would still be equal, but it would be "imbalanced" because teching or fast expanding would no longer be viable. the only good strat would be mass tier 1, kind of like a 3v3 game.
That's not being imbalanced. That's just being a shitty map.
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yes u need a ramp. it was pvp and i had like 4 zeals to his 7 cuz he went 2gate. i retreat to my ramp and that ramp saved my ass. it bought time for me to get stalkers out and i eventually staved off his attack and won the game cuz he 2gated me
ramps are necessary, for balance, and just not having a build order loss (onegate tech vs 2gate example, in pvp)
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EPT
