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On April 30 2010 02:53 ManiacTheZealot wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2010 02:46 Shambler wrote:
Zerg has to FE vs P or T, unless you do some kinda bling bust I win plenty of games without FE as Zerg. And by FE I mean expand right after or right before pool. It's not impossible to play without an expansion. Like the OP said you can't always FE you will be punished if you run up against someone like him.
To be fair, as Zerg a slow expansion is around 20-25 supply, which is quite speedy compared to other races.
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I'd hazard a guess that most players enjoy the longer games, rather than quick easy wins.
To extend that argument, we know that the average game length is going to get longer as players start to understand the fragile balance between eco and defence hence we're learning as much as the late game as possible.
Also, long eco games aren't as lazy as cheesing, long eco games with 4+ expansions are hard work, after a long one I have to take a break.
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Like was already stated, plat players aren't trying to be greedy by fast expanding, they're trying to advance their game sense. In SC1 fast expands became the norm precisely because they found builds that were safe against rushes and forced the opponent to either follow with an expand of his own or try a timing push that had a low success chance.
Those are the kinds of builds people are trying to discover for sc2. Go ahead, rush them, they'll adjust their build to be safe against rushes with the practice. And once they do they'll win every game against people that 1 base. And if there is no safe FE build that's probably an indication something needs to change TBH. If sc2 forces you to stay on 1 base in order to survive then it has failed as a macro game that sc1 was.
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You can almost always FE zvp and zvt.
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On April 30 2010 03:05 Feefee wrote:
Like was already stated, plat players aren't trying to be greedy by fast expanding, they're trying to advance their game sense. In SC1 fast expands became the norm precisely because they found builds that were safe against rushes and forced the opponent to either follow with an expand of his own or try a timing push that had a low success chance.
Those are the kinds of builds people are trying to discover for sc2. Go ahead, rush them, they'll adjust their build to be safe against rushes with the practice. And once they do they'll win every game against people that 1 base. And if there is no safe FE build that's probably an indication something needs to change TBH. If sc2 forces you to stay on 1 base in order to survive then it has failed as a macro game that sc1 was.
Proxy barracks beats 14 nexus. Cheese beats economic strats. Thats just how things are.
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On April 30 2010 03:11 DragonDefonce wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2010 03:05 Feefee wrote:
Like was already stated, plat players aren't trying to be greedy by fast expanding, they're trying to advance their game sense. In SC1 fast expands became the norm precisely because they found builds that were safe against rushes and forced the opponent to either follow with an expand of his own or try a timing push that had a low success chance.
Those are the kinds of builds people are trying to discover for sc2. Go ahead, rush them, they'll adjust their build to be safe against rushes with the practice. And once they do they'll win every game against people that 1 base. And if there is no safe FE build that's probably an indication something needs to change TBH. If sc2 forces you to stay on 1 base in order to survive then it has failed as a macro game that sc1 was. Proxy barracks beats 14 nexus. Cheese beats economic strats. Thats just how things are.
14 nex is macro cheese. I'm not talking about expanding before making unit producing buildings, I'm talking about expands that are reasonably safe. Obviously everyone in SC knows 14 nexus ISN'T a safe expand, they just do it because of the metagame.
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On April 30 2010 03:11 DragonDefonce wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2010 03:05 Feefee wrote:
Like was already stated, plat players aren't trying to be greedy by fast expanding, they're trying to advance their game sense. In SC1 fast expands became the norm precisely because they found builds that were safe against rushes and forced the opponent to either follow with an expand of his own or try a timing push that had a low success chance.
Those are the kinds of builds people are trying to discover for sc2. Go ahead, rush them, they'll adjust their build to be safe against rushes with the practice. And once they do they'll win every game against people that 1 base. And if there is no safe FE build that's probably an indication something needs to change TBH. If sc2 forces you to stay on 1 base in order to survive then it has failed as a macro game that sc1 was. Proxy barracks beats 14 nexus. Cheese beats economic strats. Thats just how things are.
I disagree, I open economically more often than not and when I see a player cheese it's a sigh of relief, this game is in the bag 
edit: EXCEPT GODDAMN BANSHEE RUSH xD
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On April 30 2010 03:14 Feefee wrote:
14 nex is macro cheese.
Macro cheese. Good term imo people don't think of it that way but it totally is. I hate to see a player who can totally be GG'd instantly getting away with it. You see it so much though. Like that PvZ early expo build Nazgul does on Blistering Sands. When the Zerg expands instead of just Nydus roaches and get a free win I get annoyed.
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It's actually very hard to fend of cannons after their 100 hp increase, they don't die at all it feels like, I took around 8 drones off to fight off cannons once and he just kept morphing them faster than I could kill them, and they finished before my pool was done (14 hatch 13 pool). Same happened with Terran when I went 14 CC, but the kid overbuilt cannons and as my second CC finished I literally just transferred all my SCVs to the second base and was 100% fine (he cannon rushed my main on Blistering Sands, I was in the bottom left and he moved his probe tot he right shrouded area and built like 6 cannons in the end after all my SCVs were pulled and the super late first marine arrived). Floated my main CC to the other base and won that way.
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would it be a viable strategy on 2 player map to go 9 pylon then scout..throw down forge at 12 then blindly place 2nd pylon in front of zerg choke then make cannons? will the timing work vs 14 pool?
you can sim city around their choke to surround cannons with pylon to minimize attack area...
i'll try this when i get home today :p
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On April 30 2010 03:50 The6357 wrote:
would it be a viable strategy on 2 player map to go 9 pylon then scout..throw down forge at 12 then blindly place 2nd pylon in front of zerg choke then make cannons? will the timing work vs 14 pool?
you can sim city around their choke to surround cannons with pylon to minimize attack area...
i'll try this when i get home today :p
No I don't believe it works vs pool first. If anything drones could delay long enough for lings. But realize at the same time lings kill cannons ridiculously slow compared to SC1; lings have slower DPS AND cannons are 50% stronger.
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I start every game saying I will play normal, not proxy until I want to attack at which point Ill bring a probe along and drop a pylon down to warp in reinforcements.
But I mean, when you see someone not even try to chase your probe out? Its too hard to resist the temptation of someone who will let you drop pylons in their base.
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On April 30 2010 02:27 Cooloff wrote:
is their such thing as chees at the pro level? would you "cheese" your way to victory for a couple grand?
No, there is not. You sir seems to be a reasonable person.
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This is a nice strat but if you are going up against a person in a Bo5 you will never win because they will expect the strat from you. Try learning how to do a macro up as well to make your general play stronger.
On April 30 2010 03:11 DragonDefonce wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2010 03:05 Feefee wrote:
Like was already stated, plat players aren't trying to be greedy by fast expanding, they're trying to advance their game sense. In SC1 fast expands became the norm precisely because they found builds that were safe against rushes and forced the opponent to either follow with an expand of his own or try a timing push that had a low success chance.
Those are the kinds of builds people are trying to discover for sc2. Go ahead, rush them, they'll adjust their build to be safe against rushes with the practice. And once they do they'll win every game against people that 1 base. And if there is no safe FE build that's probably an indication something needs to change TBH. If sc2 forces you to stay on 1 base in order to survive then it has failed as a macro game that sc1 was. Proxy barracks beats 14 nexus. Cheese beats economic strats. Thats just how things are.
Yea proxy rax beats 14 nexus but people are trying to discover what they can get away with without losing to some cheese. There have been games where zerg gets 3 bases while toss has 2 before even attacking each other because they both know all the possiblites and rushes with 1 or 2 bases.
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And if there is no safe FE build that's probably an indication something needs to change TBH. If sc2 forces you to stay on 1 base in order to survive then it has failed as a macro game that sc1 was.
I completely disagree with this. Being able to do a safe FE means that it is what everyone has to do. It reduces options. It removes strategy.
If FE builds are not safe, that doesn't mean people won't do them. FE builds should always be a risk, something you can punish a player for if you detect it. This forces a player to disguise their FE as something else.
There's nothing wrong with the safe econ build being 1-base. You then have FE as the risky, greedy econ builds, and rushes as the risky, aggressive builds.
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Its fine to do it once in a whilw but not every game. Learn to be play a standard game as well. If you can do that you wont have to rely on cheese and your game will improve much more.
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When bliz was resetting the ladder a lot and you are doing 5 placement matches a day, it gets tempting to cheAse
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It seems like a legit strategy against a FE.
I love playing against cheese like this because I never FE. It's instant win for me. In gold league it seems like all anyone has is cheesy builds, especially the random players. From my experience about 1 out of 5 players will do a standard build, which usually end up being good games and I win about half of those. A lot of times those will be against people in plat, hopefully it will be moving me up to a plat league soon.
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On April 30 2010 02:41 nodule wrote:
Congratulations on abusing the metagame! If you don't mix in standard play, though, you will be a low win % player when everyone learns to play 5% safer
im not sure why you act like its a bad thing. this is how "metagames" develop, Someone finds a weakness and exploits it. then, everyone else adapts if it catches on.
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FE is very effective for the zerg because they have lings which are so cheap and are good harrassment workers. Your cannon rush against the zerg FE may seem to be very effective but it will not work against a player who knows how to counter this strat. Once you start to get ur cannons or pylon the zerg should cancel his hatchery and start getting roaches while harrasing ur empty base with lings. Cheese builds are effective because it forces the opponent to react accordingly and put in under a lot of pressure and if he does not react properly it will cost him the game.
If we spend resources getting the cannon up and forge obviously your army will be small and u will be behind in tech. The zerg who sees an empty base should know to cancel the FE and get spinecrawlers in his main and mass up roaches to fight zealot cheese. Now zerg has the queen with the ability to spawn larvae so production is not an issue for the zerg player going off one base unlike in sc1 where FE is almost required for the zerg.
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EPT
