EPTNowadays mutas have a hard time vs T, but vs P theyre still really good.
Rather than a muta buff i would suggest to rebalance the thor / turret patch. Would be nice if mutas would be at least an option vs T..
[Q] PVZ how to fight mass muta? - Page 2
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creepcolony
Germany362 Posts
Nowadays mutas have a hard time vs T, but vs P theyre still really good. Rather than a muta buff i would suggest to rebalance the thor / turret patch. Would be nice if mutas would be at least an option vs T.. | ||
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Chen
United States6344 Posts
On April 09 2010 17:04 Tamerlane wrote: I will disclaim outright that I'm no good protoss player, but I have had my own muties get raped more than once and I did play a good number of FFA games with protoss (which means a lot of mass units and although muties are rare, they are not unheard of in an early FFA game). I think that phoenixes are a largely under estimated so far. Yes, they require starports, their build time isn't good either, clearly they are just not viable early game. But if you already have an expansion running and able to defend the first few harassment, you should definitely consider supplementing your stalkers with phoenixes. Main reasons why: - They deal 3x the amount of DPS than muties vs light (which is Muta armor) (and 2.6x more than stalkers) - They have 50% more HP than muties (if we combine Armor and Shield), for the same gas cost - They are faster than muties and can take them down when they are retreating And if the zerg decides to switch to ground based units, you can still harass him (overlords of course, but also workers) and/or neutralize key units with this particular one. how something looks on paper does not translate to how it works in game. I thought that was obvious. Phoenix only works if you dont get yourself heavily outnumbered, and that is extremely hard with the zerg macro mechanic. you probably have to go 2-stargate phoenix just to not die, and then tech switch to ground kills your army, dont think he'll give a shit about his ovies/workers when his roach/hydra are overrunning your pathetic army and destroying your base. | ||
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WorkersOfTheWorld
United States619 Posts
Not so much a problem when the map is small enough for me to zeal harass, possibly damage their expo, but on larger maps i'm totally contained by mutaling. Perhaps FE vs. zerg is the way to go, but allin speedling from the scout seems to nix that option. On April 10 2010 03:49 Chen wrote: how something looks on paper does not translate to how it works in game. I thought that was obvious. Phoenix only works if you dont get yourself heavily outnumbered, and that is extremely hard with the zerg macro mechanic. you probably have to go 2-stargate phoenix just to not die, and then tech switch to ground kills your army, dont think he'll give a shit about his ovies/workers when his roach/hydra are overrunning your pathetic army and destroying your base. Agreed. | ||
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trooth
Germany39 Posts
I still play this becuase i dont know any better solution. stalkers die so fast and against masses they cant do anything. sentries are quite ok, but they cost so many gas. | ||
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Bibdy
United States3481 Posts
Trying to react to Muta massing with building a Stargate, followed by Phoenixes is just asking for disaster. Its not like a Stargate helps you transition into anything useful later-on, either. Having the Council up will give you easier access to HTs, DTs and Speedlots when you really need them. | ||
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WorkersOfTheWorld
United States619 Posts
On April 10 2010 09:19 Bibdy wrote: If you do the usual Robo->Observer and spot mutas, then Blink would be the way to go. For the price of a Stargate and a single Phoenix, you can get all of your Stalkers Blink, and you can build a bunch of Stalkers repeatedly in the meantime. Trying to react to Muta massing with building a Stargate, followed by Phoenixes is just asking for disaster. Its not like a Stargate helps you transition into anything useful later-on, either. Having the Council up will give you easier access to HTs, DTs and Speedlots when you really need them. This is true. However, there are maps where blink simply isn't as useful as a phoenix due to the lack of places to blink (steppes, scrap, blistering sands) vs. the plethora of places for air units to run. I do think council is the way to open on zerg who seem like they're going muta in most situations though. | ||
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ccou
United States681 Posts
On April 10 2010 03:54 WorkersOfTheWorld wrote: Would like to see a replay of phoenix use in PvZ that is plat. I hadly ever use them and when I do the zerg is already pressing me with hydras to take advantage of all the resources I just wasted on AA. Not so much a problem when the map is small enough for me to zeal harass, possibly damage their expo, but on larger maps i'm totally contained by mutaling. Perhaps FE vs. zerg is the way to go, but allin speedling from the scout seems to nix that option. Agreed. Well, you should really try out the phoenices. First of all, phoenices are really fun. Second, they're good scouts. Third, they're actually pretty effective against hydras too if you have the micro. They kill hydras in 4 hits. The micro is a little funky because you need to do shift+Gs to lift a couple and then add in an attack move at the end so the ones in the back will attack, because sometimes phoenices spaz out for some reason. Seeing as they're already good against mutas and zerg has no other GtA besides LOL, the queen. Phoenices are no corsairs, but they're still good at killing overlords AND you can snipe queens with them. Which leaves corruptors, but hey, that's less dangerous than scourge and if you have the tech, feedback kills most corruptors instantly. I seriously don't see what you guys are saying about the switch to ground army. It's not as if you're not getting resources in the mean time as well. Warpgates also make transition back to ground instantly. If the zerg has a ton more bases than you, more than the standard 3:2 zerg-to-protoss base ratio, then you've done something wrong or are simply outmatched in skill or intellect. Stargate tech isn't bad in PvZ, early void rays can catch Z off guard, as can early phoenices to hunt ovies. You already gain protection against mutas mid game. You'll also have more mobile options late game if broodlords show up and even produce a mothership for cloaking/vortexing. EDIT: gah unintended emoticons | ||
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omninmo
2349 Posts
but if you make 12 sentires then you are vulnerable to a speedling bust. the muta build is really good on maps like kulas and desert oasis since it is so far to your enemy's base (plus gold minerals are easy to obtain whilst the Z harasses). for protoss i would recommend opening two gate and attacking with 5zealots and a sentry to open. just show those units so he makes lings.. if he doesnt then punish him (but dont lose your army needlessly). you can expand from here while massing blink stalkers, sentry, phoenix, immortal. yes i said it, phoenix. i still dont know why US protoss do not use it (at least at the gold level. im top 10 in my div). | ||
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robal4444
Poland5 Posts
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WorkersOfTheWorld
United States619 Posts
On April 10 2010 11:28 ccou wrote: + Show Spoiler + On April 10 2010 03:54 WorkersOfTheWorld wrote: Would like to see a replay of phoenix use in PvZ that is plat. I hadly ever use them and when I do the zerg is already pressing me with hydras to take advantage of all the resources I just wasted on AA. Not so much a problem when the map is small enough for me to zeal harass, possibly damage their expo, but on larger maps i'm totally contained by mutaling. Perhaps FE vs. zerg is the way to go, but allin speedling from the scout seems to nix that option. Agreed. Well, you should really try out the phoenices. First of all, phoenices are really fun. Second, they're good scouts. Third, they're actually pretty effective against hydras too if you have the micro. They kill hydras in 4 hits. The micro is a little funky because you need to do shift+Gs to lift a couple and then add in an attack move at the end so the ones in the back will attack, because sometimes phoenices spaz out for some reason. Seeing as they're already good against mutas and zerg has no other GtA besides LOL, the queen. Phoenices are no corsairs, but they're still good at killing overlords AND you can snipe queens with them. Which leaves corruptors, but hey, that's less dangerous than scourge and if you have the tech, feedback kills most corruptors instantly. I seriously don't see what you guys are saying about the switch to ground army. It's not as if you're not getting resources in the mean time as well. Warpgates also make transition back to ground instantly. If the zerg has a ton more bases than you, more than the standard 3:2 zerg-to-protoss base ratio, then you've done something wrong or are simply outmatched in skill or intellect. Stargate tech isn't bad in PvZ, early void rays can catch Z off guard, as can early phoenices to hunt ovies. You already gain protection against mutas mid game. You'll also have more mobile options late game if broodlords show up and even produce a mothership for cloaking/vortexing. EDIT: gah unintended emoticons It's not that I haven't tried the phoenix or a phoenix open on suspected muta-zerg. I do realize that having phoenix out before a large number of mutas are in play basically shuts down the muta factory (or forces a lot of resources to be spent on spores or extra queens. That being said, I think you're down-playing just how easy it is for a zerg to swap hydra once he sees protoss air units. The hydra den takes just 40 second to build, that means from the time you kill that first ovie or muta, you're on a tight schedule to get down as many units as possible before the zerg player pulls into his bases and places a good number of hydras at each hatch. Yes, having a lot of warpgates does allow you to fend of a hydra push later, but if you've gone cybernetic -> stargate you won't even have zealot charge to deal with the hyras. In the absolute best case, you're going to have killed a few ovies, possibly a queen, and royally pissed off the zerg to the point he wants you dead, right then and there. You'd have a really rough time expanding with the few zeals you built all the while as your only defense against whatever units the zerg produced while you built the phoenix harassment group. Generally lings accompany a muta build. If the zerg decides to throw a lot of lings at you when he sees the phoenix, you really arent going to do much trying to grav beam a few of the attacking lings, and I highly doubt a double starport build would have enough ground troops to delay a bunch of speedlings for very long. You might be able to block them at your ramp, but that just means you're still contained and unable to expand. Point being: you can cause a lot of annoyance with the phoenix, but what you gain is not strong map control unless the zerg player actually saw the phoenix group and decided to ignore them or build more mutas. Hydras will certianly follow them and you must quickly tech up another tree to remain competetive. Unupgraded zealots and sentries (which you won't have a lot of considering they compete heavily for gas with the phoenix) won't hold a hydra army for long. If you're having smashing success with stargate opens against zerg then i'd be thrilled to see the replay(s) of it, but in my platinum experience there hasn't been much to gain by fast phoenix against a good zerg opponent. | ||
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Ryuu314
United States12679 Posts
On April 10 2010 12:20 omninmo wrote: ive been owning all day with mutas. basically if you dont scout and put pressure on the zerg early (so that he has to make lings, roaches and not DRONEZ) you will lose. cannons are still made of paper. the best "counter" to mutas is still shielded sentries with targeting micro. but if you make 12 sentires then you are vulnerable to a speedling bust. the muta build is really good on maps like kulas and desert oasis since it is so far to your enemy's base (plus gold minerals are easy to obtain whilst the Z harasses). for protoss i would recommend opening two gate and attacking with 5zealots and a sentry to open. just show those units so he makes lings.. if he doesnt then punish him (but dont lose your army needlessly). you can expand from here while massing blink stalkers, sentry, phoenix, immortal. yes i said it, phoenix. i still dont know why US protoss do not use it (at least at the gold level. im top 10 in my div). the only problem with this is that certain maps, scrap station (before you break the rocks) and desert oasis come to mind, have ridiculously short air rush distances but ridiculously long ground rush distances. this makes the immortal or simply zeal/sentry timing attack really hard to do. they will usually have enough speedlings to fend stuff off. and furthermore, on those maps, your natural is sooo far away from you base. if the zerg player any good at all, they'll make you run back and forth between your two bases and the long travel time coupled with muta bounce, they can always ensure that they'll kill a good amount of probes before your forces even get there. | ||
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go4it
Croatia91 Posts
But I dont agree with mass sentries againts mutas. Mutas eat sentries in mass. So, my suggestion is mass stalkers, possible with blink, + few sentries for shield. Just my 2 cents. | ||
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DragonDefonce
United States790 Posts
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WorkersOfTheWorld
United States619 Posts
On April 13 2010 04:17 go4it wrote: I see majority of player agree that Stalkers + Sentry is counter to mutas. With that I agree. But I dont agree with mass sentries againts mutas. Mutas eat sentries in mass. So, my suggestion is mass stalkers, possible with blink, + few sentries for shield. Just my 2 cents. The reason you want sentries in large numbers is because there will also very likely be a lot of lings to accompany the mutas (not necessarily with the mutas in location, but attacking your forces if they try to push out, or just harassing you from a diffirent angle). Stalker mass is easily chewed up by speedlings or worse, cracklings. You need a lot of sentries to make sure those lings don't get a chance to surround your stalkers. Keep in mind you will have to pop guardian shield a lot too, so this simply cannot be accomplished with a minimal amount of sentries. | ||
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gmerc
Canada45 Posts
http://sc2.nibbits.com/replays/view/1409/ http://sc2.nibbits.com/replays/view/1408/ | ||
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Splendour
Bulgaria129 Posts
Protoss needs a better high-tech anti air units (Yes, I am referring to the archon) | ||
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Eyke
United States5 Posts
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Nitron
Singapore177 Posts
I did the same thing as u in the past against zerg, i waited till i had 3 voidrays because i wasnt comfortable, but instead that gave him a window of opportunity to build up his units. | ||
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sadyque
Romania251 Posts
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Entropia
France103 Posts
I still lose to muta in PvZ. Everytime. I usually go stalkers and sentries as much as I can but the problem is that I'm contained in my base, I even manage somehow to get the nat but I get harassed and cannot stop the zerg from expanding. Thank you! | ||
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