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Hi guys,
I'm a gold league toss player in sc2. Due to the nerf to roaches, certain Zerg players start using mutas now,and i lost two consecutive PvZ games today and both times got raped by muta
game 1. Z player blocked choke with roaches queen and spine crawlers, made me think that he was goin roaches so i did the standard timing push with immortal sentry zlot and stalker. but at the same time i cahrged into his base, a bunch of mutas came to my base and raped me
-now that one i thought i just got juked and didnt scout well
then game 2. on blistering sands, the zerg quickly FE and dfended with massive lings and couple sunkens, he then went mass muta and owned my cheese 3 voidrays, then he continued to pump out mutas and my cannons and sentries could not stop him.
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Above is a rep of game 2
I want to know what units i should mass to counter muta once i discover ? and what to do in a situation where theres mass mutas flying between ur main and natural while the zerg expands( i made 3-5 cannons in each base i think)? please tell me what i did incorrectly. Thanks
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A good counter to mass mutas is mass stalkers with blink, thing is you have to scout the mutas early or else chances are you will have a small number of stalkers, and it will be very hard to catch up with his number of mutas.
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Best bet if you think they are going for mutas is to attack with Zealots from a gateway at the beginning. Not to win but to force them to make Zerglings or Roaches, as a Plat Zerg player I can tell you there is a big difference between being harassed and being left to macro my eco up. Anyway do some Zealot harass from 1 gate with chrono boost, make him waste money building lings or even better roaches, that will slow his eco and tech right down.
Another thing you should do is expand Mutas are good spammable units but they aren't cost effective versus anything, if you have like 10 gateways spamming stalkers and sentrys with photon cannons then he won't be able to touch you with his mutas.
If he wants to sac his main to kill your main then not really much you can do about that, provided your army can beat his ball of mutas you should win the game in a base trade, either that or just place like a bazillion cannons at your nexus before you move out.
I'd avoid doing things like cheese voidray strats yes it works sometimes even against good players, but after like a day and everyone has had it done to them then they will expect it and simply counter you with hydras or mutas, like you said too if he goes mutas and and you go rays he is gonna roll you .
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Yeah I'm a protoss player and mass muta is such a pain... Their mobility is annoying to deal with but just start massing sentry/stalker, driving them away from your base, and basically you can push out with that huge force afterwards
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Ya stalkers well controlled with blink can really damage a muta army if the zerg isn't watching over carefully. I've seen many zerg players get too greedy with mutas, so definitely try to take advantage of when this happens. Blink behind them so the fastest way out is above your stalkers, and you can do a ton of damage as they run
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Mass sentries are listed as the "obvious" counter on the tech tree, tough they usually have not enough HP to live long enough for killing mass mutas. However, if you can afford it, get 1 or 2 sentries with your stalkers since the guardian shield greatly reduces the bounce damage mutas do.
One more note, it's is kinda the same as in SC:BW - scouting them is the key. Minimize his harras by blink-stalkers and try to sneak sth to his expos so he can not get to far ahead. Mutas are expensive and most of the time he cant afford more than a bunch of speedlings while massing mutas. Use that time window if you can and be prepared (scout!) if he is switching tech.
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I will disclaim outright that I'm no good protoss player, but I have had my own muties get raped more than once and I did play a good number of FFA games with protoss (which means a lot of mass units and although muties are rare, they are not unheard of in an early FFA game).
I think that phoenixes are a largely under estimated so far. Yes, they require starports, their build time isn't good either, clearly they are just not viable early game. But if you already have an expansion running and able to defend the first few harassment, you should definitely consider supplementing your stalkers with phoenixes. Main reasons why:
- They deal 3x the amount of DPS than muties vs light (which is Muta armor) (and 2.6x more than stalkers)
- They have 50% more HP than muties (if we combine Armor and Shield), for the same gas cost
- They are faster than muties and can take them down when they are retreating
And if the zerg decides to switch to ground based units, you can still harass him (overlords of course, but also workers) and/or neutralize key units with this particular one.
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in game one, if you went for early robo, why didnt you build an obs and see that he's going mutas... To me it sounds like your problem is poor ass scouting and just doing your own thing regardless of what you see him doing.
The answer to muta is simply stalker with blink and sentries mixed as guardian shield helps a TON.
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A few Stalker and Archon can kill lots of mutas. Or at least make them escape !!
And so, never be tight for cannons in ur base.
Mutas are no problem. And they are weakier then they used to be in sc1. The fact is to notice that ur oppenent is going to muta. If you can counter it well, thats a huge advantage because mutas r soo expensive
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Stalker and sentry do alright countering muta, with cannons at your bases to keep your probes alive until you're ready to attack him. One thing that's important (and it was important in sc1 too) is to focus fire. Especially when the zerg runs in lings + muta, you have to make sure all your sentries and/or stalkers take the mutas down one by one. Otherwise they're alot less effective
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I usually can keep up with zerg muta numbers with my stalkers if i scout it properly, however i tend to get stomped afterwards because my opponent just makes a lot of lings very quickly when i push out. And the lings plus muta rape my stalkers, and i usually don't have enough zealots due to producing so many stalkers.
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On April 09 2010 17:04 Tamerlane wrote:
I will disclaim outright that I'm no good protoss player, but I have had my own muties get raped more than once and I did play a good number of FFA games with protoss (which means a lot of mass units and although muties are rare, they are not unheard of in an early FFA game).
I think that phoenixes are a largely under estimated so far. Yes, they require starports, their build time isn't good either, clearly they are just not viable early game. But if you already have an expansion running and able to defend the first few harassment, you should definitely consider supplementing your stalkers with phoenixes. Main reasons why:
- They deal 3x the amount of DPS than muties vs light (which is Muta armor) (and 2.6x more than stalkers)
- They have 50% more HP than muties (if we combine Armor and Shield), for the same gas cost
- They are faster than muties and can take them down when they are retreating
And if the zerg decides to switch to ground based units, you can still harass him (overlords of course, but also workers) and/or neutralize key units with this particular one.
On paper phoenix are a good counter. But I would discourage people from making them against mutas unless you plan on making something else from the starport too. So easy for Zerg simply to see you have 3 starports and keep like 10 mutas then simply stop building them and switch to mass roach/hydra then you make like 10 phoenix expecting muta spam only to find he has switched tech to something else.
Only time I'd say making a starport was a good idea is if you already had done a voidray cheese or something then ofc use the starport to counter his mutas but if he already has mutas better to stick with your gateway units rather than wasting gas on units that are totally useless against the zerg player except to kill his mutas.
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If they're going mutas their incredibly vulnerable to a timing push just as their before spire goes up. Force them into hydralisks.
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On April 09 2010 17:42 Necrosjef wrote:
On paper phoenix are a good counter. But I would discourage people from making them against mutas unless you plan on making something else from the starport too. So easy for Zerg simply to see you have 3 starports and keep like 10 mutas then simply stop building them and switch to mass roach/hydra then you make like 10 phoenix expecting muta spam only to find he has switched tech to something else.
Only time I'd say making a starport was a good idea is if you already had done a voidray cheese or something then ofc use the starport to counter his mutas but if he already has mutas better to stick with your gateway units rather than wasting gas on units that are totally useless against the zerg player except to kill his mutas.
Of course, making 3 starports simply to get pheonixes pumping is absurd, at most 2 will suffice, and I was not suggesting to mass them up to hard counter the muties, but 4 to 8 phoenixes (depending on how muta heavy he goes) should be more than enough to support very effectively your forces of stalkers and sentries.
And, again, those phoenixes won't be useless at all after he stopped doing muties.
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thanks guys, seems like i need to scout more is the main problem, and yea i tried to mass sentries and they just got microd down quickly by the mass mutas due to their low hp. (like how muta micro down marines in BW, hit one fly away)
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I feel that sentry/stalker is a good counter to muta and for base protection, but its not the best counter against ling/muta.
For zerg, the key is holding the attack until the toss is in the open field...which is generally doable since zerg are the ones expanding everywhere. In the open field, its much harder to FF to coral the lings, and ling/muta is pretty strong against stalker/sentry.
Its very much the same scenario as in BW. Dragoons did okay against muta, but against ling/muta they were hopelessly outmatched. But they had a stronger storm, stronger archon, and stronger corsair to back them up.
In SCII its a bit different. The sentry is a great addition, but the toss does have to contend with the loss of some of its big antiair guns (archons especially, which was the main ling/muta destroyer).
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First thing that comes to my mind is macro problem, either building too many gas units that aren't effective, or not matching the zerg in gas. Sentry(for shield and ownage), Stalkers(for efficient and power) and phoenix(for speed) are the counter, and so long as you don't waste your gas on the wrong units, in the right numbers will obliterate any muta attempts. In the i lose to mutalisk thread i actually explain why mutalisks are next to useless against GOOD play. Work on it, i think you'll begin to rape mutas shortly. I'm going to check out your replay though. I'd love to see i'm wrong and see mutas are super effective against a toss that doesn't make mistakes.
Update:
Ok i just watched your replay.
First of all you sent 3 void rays to his base and lose them to 7 mutalisk, while you build a mostly zeal/sentry army composition. Then you built up about 6 stalkers and 6 sentries against his 17-20 mutalisk...
He also got his expand up more quickly, which gave him more gas. That's a no-no. He actually played horribly. He had like 1k minerals he didn't spend.
First of all opt to expand faster with protoss. When i play protoss, the first thing i think of is get more gas!, which means expand asap. And get way more stalkers and phoenix in your composition. to beat 17 mutalisks, by that time you need 10 stalkers and 4 phoenix, or 17 stalkers, or 6 phoenix and 5 stalkers.
Better play and you will run over zergs like that ridiculously, and hopefully then zerg mutalisks can be buffed. Gl with your games man !
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On April 10 2010 00:30 thez wrote:
First thing that comes to my mind is macro problem, either building too many gas units that aren't effective, or not matching the zerg in gas. Sentry(for shield and ownage), Stalkers(for efficient and power) and phoenix(for speed) are the counter, and so long as you don't waste your gas on the wrong units, in the right numbers will obliterate any muta attempts. In the i lose to mutalisk thread i actually explain why mutalisks are next to useless against GOOD play. Work on it, i think you'll begin to rape mutas shortly. I'm going to check out your replay though. I'd love to see i'm wrong and see mutas are super effective against a toss that doesn't make mistakes.
Update:
Ok i just watched your replay.
First of all you sent 3 void rays to his base and lose them to 7 mutalisk, while you build a mostly zeal/sentry army composition. Then you built up about 6 stalkers and 6 sentries against his 17-20 mutalisk...
He also got his expand up more quickly, which gave him more gas. That's a no-no. He actually played horribly. He had like 1k minerals he didn't spend.
First of all opt to expand faster with protoss. When i play protoss, the first thing i think of is get more gas!, which means expand asap. And get way more stalkers and phoenix in your composition. to beat 17 mutalisks, by that time you need 10 stalkers and 4 phoenix, or 17 stalkers, or 6 phoenix and 5 stalkers.
Better play and you will run over zergs like that ridiculously, and hopefully then zerg mutalisks can be buffed. Gl with your games man !
Thanks for your time and advice man
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On April 09 2010 17:42 Necrosjef wrote:Show nested quote +On April 09 2010 17:04 Tamerlane wrote:
I will disclaim outright that I'm no good protoss player, but I have had my own muties get raped more than once and I did play a good number of FFA games with protoss (which means a lot of mass units and although muties are rare, they are not unheard of in an early FFA game).
I think that phoenixes are a largely under estimated so far. Yes, they require starports, their build time isn't good either, clearly they are just not viable early game. But if you already have an expansion running and able to defend the first few harassment, you should definitely consider supplementing your stalkers with phoenixes. Main reasons why:
- They deal 3x the amount of DPS than muties vs light (which is Muta armor) (and 2.6x more than stalkers)
- They have 50% more HP than muties (if we combine Armor and Shield), for the same gas cost
- They are faster than muties and can take them down when they are retreating
And if the zerg decides to switch to ground based units, you can still harass him (overlords of course, but also workers) and/or neutralize key units with this particular one. On paper phoenix are a good counter. But I would discourage people from making them against mutas unless you plan on making something else from the starport too. So easy for Zerg simply to see you have 3 starports and keep like 10 mutas then simply stop building them and switch to mass roach/hydra then you make like 10 phoenix expecting muta spam only to find he has switched tech to something else. Only time I'd say making a starport was a good idea is if you already had done a voidray cheese or something then ofc use the starport to counter his mutas but if he already has mutas better to stick with your gateway units rather than wasting gas on units that are totally useless against the zerg player except to kill his mutas.
I used to have a lot of problems against mutas in PvZ, but since I started getting phoenix at the right time PvZ has become my best matchup. It's really important to get the starports down before his mutas do damage to you and also only when you are fairly certain that mutas are coming. For example, if you scout a fairly early pool with gas and/or your scouting probe gets killed by some zerglings, it is almost certain that the zerg will be going speedling into muta, so you can get out the stargates earlier. At least at my level (currently 2nd in plat div 39, though I'm sure I am not nearly as strong as the lower division players who are lower ranked), I find it very easy to tell when the zerg player is likely to go (muta/ling vs. roach/hydra)
I really think that if you ever make 3 starports you are getting too many, though. Typically against a 2 base zerg 2 starports is plenty, and once you get 6-8 phoenix they techswitch and don't pump mutas much anymore. But even once they stop making mutas, your phoenix are very good. They give you insane map control, since you can scout every expansion and pick off any overlords which are trying to scout, which hurts the zerg a lot. They also are really good at picking off drones and small (1-4) groups of hydras.
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PJA is onto the strategy that will own mutas and make them useless. Well done PJA. I'm luvin hearing people wake up to realize how weak mutas are, because it's been my most hotley contested claim yet.
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Thats what im speaking about in your thread thez. If Z doesnt techswitch(which nearly everyone does, as PJA said) and keeps producing mutas his phoenix will lose. Really before the Thor/Turret patch mutas where redicilous good vs P and T. I played about 200 games in beta, and i hardly can remember a game which i lost when my opp let me get 2 base 10+ muta. Really.
Nowadays mutas have a hard time vs T, but vs P theyre still really good.
Rather than a muta buff i would suggest to rebalance the thor / turret patch. Would be nice if mutas would be at least an option vs T..
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On April 09 2010 17:04 Tamerlane wrote:
I will disclaim outright that I'm no good protoss player, but I have had my own muties get raped more than once and I did play a good number of FFA games with protoss (which means a lot of mass units and although muties are rare, they are not unheard of in an early FFA game).
I think that phoenixes are a largely under estimated so far. Yes, they require starports, their build time isn't good either, clearly they are just not viable early game. But if you already have an expansion running and able to defend the first few harassment, you should definitely consider supplementing your stalkers with phoenixes. Main reasons why:
- They deal 3x the amount of DPS than muties vs light (which is Muta armor) (and 2.6x more than stalkers)
- They have 50% more HP than muties (if we combine Armor and Shield), for the same gas cost
- They are faster than muties and can take them down when they are retreating
And if the zerg decides to switch to ground based units, you can still harass him (overlords of course, but also workers) and/or neutralize key units with this particular one.
how something looks on paper does not translate to how it works in game. I thought that was obvious. Phoenix only works if you dont get yourself heavily outnumbered, and that is extremely hard with the zerg macro mechanic. you probably have to go 2-stargate phoenix just to not die, and then tech switch to ground kills your army, dont think he'll give a shit about his ovies/workers when his roach/hydra are overrunning your pathetic army and destroying your base.
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Would like to see a replay of phoenix use in PvZ that is plat. I hadly ever use them and when I do the zerg is already pressing me with hydras to take advantage of all the resources I just wasted on AA.
Not so much a problem when the map is small enough for me to zeal harass, possibly damage their expo, but on larger maps i'm totally contained by mutaling. Perhaps FE vs. zerg is the way to go, but allin speedling from the scout seems to nix that option.
On April 10 2010 03:49 Chen wrote:
how something looks on paper does not translate to how it works in game. I thought that was obvious. Phoenix only works if you dont get yourself heavily outnumbered, and that is extremely hard with the zerg macro mechanic. you probably have to go 2-stargate phoenix just to not die, and then tech switch to ground kills your army, dont think he'll give a shit about his ovies/workers when his roach/hydra are overrunning your pathetic army and destroying your base.
Agreed.
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I also struggle with zerg players going for mutas. I usually go for phoenixes, which are great against mutas but useless against everything else. And there is another problem: if the zerg player goes for mass mutas you need 2 stargates building phoenix all the time. If there is noh expansion for you, you can't build something else. The zerg player can easily switch to hydras or / and roaches and destroy you.
I still play this becuase i dont know any better solution. stalkers die so fast and against masses they cant do anything. sentries are quite ok, but they cost so many gas.
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If you do the usual Robo->Observer and spot mutas, then Blink would be the way to go. For the price of a Stargate and a single Phoenix, you can get all of your Stalkers Blink, and you can build a bunch of Stalkers repeatedly in the meantime.
Trying to react to Muta massing with building a Stargate, followed by Phoenixes is just asking for disaster.
Its not like a Stargate helps you transition into anything useful later-on, either. Having the Council up will give you easier access to HTs, DTs and Speedlots when you really need them.
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On April 10 2010 09:19 Bibdy wrote:
If you do the usual Robo->Observer and spot mutas, then Blink would be the way to go. For the price of a Stargate and a single Phoenix, you can get all of your Stalkers Blink, and you can build a bunch of Stalkers repeatedly in the meantime.
Trying to react to Muta massing with building a Stargate, followed by Phoenixes is just asking for disaster.
Its not like a Stargate helps you transition into anything useful later-on, either. Having the Council up will give you easier access to HTs, DTs and Speedlots when you really need them.
This is true. However, there are maps where blink simply isn't as useful as a phoenix due to the lack of places to blink (steppes, scrap, blistering sands) vs. the plethora of places for air units to run.
I do think council is the way to open on zerg who seem like they're going muta in most situations though.
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On April 10 2010 03:54 WorkersOfTheWorld wrote:Would like to see a replay of phoenix use in PvZ that is plat. I hadly ever use them and when I do the zerg is already pressing me with hydras to take advantage of all the resources I just wasted on AA. Not so much a problem when the map is small enough for me to zeal harass, possibly damage their expo, but on larger maps i'm totally contained by mutaling. Perhaps FE vs. zerg is the way to go, but allin speedling from the scout seems to nix that option. Show nested quote +On April 10 2010 03:49 Chen wrote:
how something looks on paper does not translate to how it works in game. I thought that was obvious. Phoenix only works if you dont get yourself heavily outnumbered, and that is extremely hard with the zerg macro mechanic. you probably have to go 2-stargate phoenix just to not die, and then tech switch to ground kills your army, dont think he'll give a shit about his ovies/workers when his roach/hydra are overrunning your pathetic army and destroying your base. Agreed.
Well, you should really try out the phoenices. First of all, phoenices are really fun. Second, they're good scouts. Third, they're actually pretty effective against hydras too if you have the micro. They kill hydras in 4 hits. The micro is a little funky because you need to do shift+Gs to lift a couple and then add in an attack move at the end so the ones in the back will attack, because sometimes phoenices spaz out for some reason.
Seeing as they're already good against mutas and zerg has no other GtA besides LOL, the queen. Phoenices are no corsairs, but they're still good at killing overlords AND you can snipe queens with them. Which leaves corruptors, but hey, that's less dangerous than scourge and if you have the tech, feedback kills most corruptors instantly.
I seriously don't see what you guys are saying about the switch to ground army. It's not as if you're not getting resources in the mean time as well. Warpgates also make transition back to ground instantly. If the zerg has a ton more bases than you, more than the standard 3:2 zerg-to-protoss base ratio, then you've done something wrong or are simply outmatched in skill or intellect.
Stargate tech isn't bad in PvZ, early void rays can catch Z off guard, as can early phoenices to hunt ovies. You already gain protection against mutas mid game. You'll also have more mobile options late game if broodlords show up and even produce a mothership for cloaking/vortexing.
EDIT: gah unintended emoticons
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ive been owning all day with mutas. basically if you dont scout and put pressure on the zerg early (so that he has to make lings, roaches and not DRONEZ) you will lose. cannons are still made of paper. the best "counter" to mutas is still shielded sentries with targeting micro.
but if you make 12 sentires then you are vulnerable to a speedling bust.
the muta build is really good on maps like kulas and desert oasis since it is so far to your enemy's base (plus gold minerals are easy to obtain whilst the Z harasses). for protoss i would recommend opening two gate and attacking with 5zealots and a sentry to open. just show those units so he makes lings.. if he doesnt then punish him (but dont lose your army needlessly).
you can expand from here while massing blink stalkers, sentry, phoenix, immortal. yes i said it, phoenix. i still dont know why US protoss do not use it (at least at the gold level. im top 10 in my div).
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On April 10 2010 11:28 ccou wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On April 10 2010 03:54 WorkersOfTheWorld wrote:Would like to see a replay of phoenix use in PvZ that is plat. I hadly ever use them and when I do the zerg is already pressing me with hydras to take advantage of all the resources I just wasted on AA. Not so much a problem when the map is small enough for me to zeal harass, possibly damage their expo, but on larger maps i'm totally contained by mutaling. Perhaps FE vs. zerg is the way to go, but allin speedling from the scout seems to nix that option. Show nested quote +On April 10 2010 03:49 Chen wrote:
how something looks on paper does not translate to how it works in game. I thought that was obvious. Phoenix only works if you dont get yourself heavily outnumbered, and that is extremely hard with the zerg macro mechanic. you probably have to go 2-stargate phoenix just to not die, and then tech switch to ground kills your army, dont think he'll give a shit about his ovies/workers when his roach/hydra are overrunning your pathetic army and destroying your base. Agreed. Well, you should really try out the phoenices. First of all, phoenices are really fun. Second, they're good scouts. Third, they're actually pretty effective against hydras too if you have the micro. They kill hydras in 4 hits. The micro is a little funky because you need to do shift+Gs to lift a couple and then add in an attack move at the end so the ones in the back will attack, because sometimes phoenices spaz out for some reason. Seeing as they're already good against mutas and zerg has no other GtA besides LOL, the queen. Phoenices are no corsairs, but they're still good at killing overlords AND you can snipe queens with them. Which leaves corruptors, but hey, that's less dangerous than scourge and if you have the tech, feedback kills most corruptors instantly. I seriously don't see what you guys are saying about the switch to ground army. It's not as if you're not getting resources in the mean time as well. Warpgates also make transition back to ground instantly. If the zerg has a ton more bases than you, more than the standard 3:2 zerg-to-protoss base ratio, then you've done something wrong or are simply outmatched in skill or intellect. Stargate tech isn't bad in PvZ, early void rays can catch Z off guard, as can early phoenices to hunt ovies. You already gain protection against mutas mid game. You'll also have more mobile options late game if broodlords show up and even produce a mothership for cloaking/vortexing. EDIT: gah unintended emoticons
It's not that I haven't tried the phoenix or a phoenix open on suspected muta-zerg. I do realize that having phoenix out before a large number of mutas are in play basically shuts down the muta factory (or forces a lot of resources to be spent on spores or extra queens. That being said, I think you're down-playing just how easy it is for a zerg to swap hydra once he sees protoss air units. The hydra den takes just 40 second to build, that means from the time you kill that first ovie or muta, you're on a tight schedule to get down as many units as possible before the zerg player pulls into his bases and places a good number of hydras at each hatch.
Yes, having a lot of warpgates does allow you to fend of a hydra push later, but if you've gone cybernetic -> stargate you won't even have zealot charge to deal with the hyras. In the absolute best case, you're going to have killed a few ovies, possibly a queen, and royally pissed off the zerg to the point he wants you dead, right then and there. You'd have a really rough time expanding with the few zeals you built all the while as your only defense against whatever units the zerg produced while you built the phoenix harassment group. Generally lings accompany a muta build. If the zerg decides to throw a lot of lings at you when he sees the phoenix, you really arent going to do much trying to grav beam a few of the attacking lings, and I highly doubt a double starport build would have enough ground troops to delay a bunch of speedlings for very long. You might be able to block them at your ramp, but that just means you're still contained and unable to expand.
Point being: you can cause a lot of annoyance with the phoenix, but what you gain is not strong map control unless the zerg player actually saw the phoenix group and decided to ignore them or build more mutas. Hydras will certianly follow them and you must quickly tech up another tree to remain competetive. Unupgraded zealots and sentries (which you won't have a lot of considering they compete heavily for gas with the phoenix) won't hold a hydra army for long.
If you're having smashing success with stargate opens against zerg then i'd be thrilled to see the replay(s) of it, but in my platinum experience there hasn't been much to gain by fast phoenix against a good zerg opponent.
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On April 10 2010 12:20 omninmo wrote:
ive been owning all day with mutas. basically if you dont scout and put pressure on the zerg early (so that he has to make lings, roaches and not DRONEZ) you will lose. cannons are still made of paper. the best "counter" to mutas is still shielded sentries with targeting micro.
but if you make 12 sentires then you are vulnerable to a speedling bust.
the muta build is really good on maps like kulas and desert oasis since it is so far to your enemy's base (plus gold minerals are easy to obtain whilst the Z harasses). for protoss i would recommend opening two gate and attacking with 5zealots and a sentry to open. just show those units so he makes lings.. if he doesnt then punish him (but dont lose your army needlessly).
you can expand from here while massing blink stalkers, sentry, phoenix, immortal. yes i said it, phoenix. i still dont know why US protoss do not use it (at least at the gold level. im top 10 in my div).
the only problem with this is that certain maps, scrap station (before you break the rocks) and desert oasis come to mind, have ridiculously short air rush distances but ridiculously long ground rush distances. this makes the immortal or simply zeal/sentry timing attack really hard to do. they will usually have enough speedlings to fend stuff off.
and furthermore, on those maps, your natural is sooo far away from you base. if the zerg player any good at all, they'll make you run back and forth between your two bases and the long travel time coupled with muta bounce, they can always ensure that they'll kill a good amount of probes before your forces even get there.
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I see majority of player agree that Stalkers + Sentry is counter to mutas. With that I agree.
But I dont agree with mass sentries againts mutas. Mutas eat sentries in mass.
So, my suggestion is mass stalkers, possible with blink, + few sentries for shield.
Just my 2 cents.
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Mutals are very easily countered by stalker/sentry mix. Be sure to be generous on the sentry count. I had a game where i was being harassed endlessly in both of my mineral lines. All I did was put 2 cannons up each and get 6 warpgates, massed up a ball of sentry/stalker/zealot and moved out to completely demolish his base. His base harass was shut down by warping units and cannons, and when I got to his base, all he had was mutal/ling, so I guardian shielded and put up force fields all around me to fight lings. Ended up killing everything with a handful of units left and it was gg.
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On April 13 2010 04:17 go4it wrote:
I see majority of player agree that Stalkers + Sentry is counter to mutas. With that I agree.
But I dont agree with mass sentries againts mutas. Mutas eat sentries in mass.
So, my suggestion is mass stalkers, possible with blink, + few sentries for shield.
Just my 2 cents.
The reason you want sentries in large numbers is because there will also very likely be a lot of lings to accompany the mutas (not necessarily with the mutas in location, but attacking your forces if they try to push out, or just harassing you from a diffirent angle). Stalker mass is easily chewed up by speedlings or worse, cracklings. You need a lot of sentries to make sure those lings don't get a chance to surround your stalkers. Keep in mind you will have to pop guardian shield a lot too, so this simply cannot be accomplished with a minimal amount of sentries.
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It's almost impossible to win against 2 base mutas if the zerg manages to get them without investing too much in defense or taking severe damage - hence the best counter is to attack before he has them or before he has a lot of them. Phoenixes die in seconds and they don't share upgrades with sentries/stalkers so i've found them pretty useless. Cannons, on the other side, are very effective, but most zergs tend to get more mutas, take a lot of expansions and make speedlings with their excess minerals resulting in them getting a superior army and map control throughout the game.
Protoss needs a better high-tech anti air units (Yes, I am referring to the archon)
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I'm having a tough time with this build lately, The zerg typically makes lings all game where i cant break it with the spine crawlers and queens. and expands and sits and waits till muta
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Hi logican, I have just watched ur replay, ur void ray push failed because u waited for 3 voidrays before attacking the enemy's base, you should have went for his queen the moment ur first void ray appears and u either kill his overlords (denying him a chance to spawn muta) or spire and keep pumping voidrays to fight. u waited too long and the zerg got their spire up in time.
I did the same thing as u in the past against zerg, i waited till i had 3 voidrays because i wasnt comfortable, but instead that gave him a window of opportunity to build up his units.
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Try archons man. One archon vs 6 mutas gets u going rofl. And it regenerates shields so quickly that u can have it ready for the next wave.
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Any idea?
I still lose to muta in PvZ. Everytime. I usually go stalkers and sentries as much as I can but the problem is that I'm contained in my base, I even manage somehow to get the nat but I get harassed and cannot stop the zerg from expanding.
Thank you!
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I've really found that the key to beating zerg and mutas is good senty usage combined with a strong army of zealots, immortals, etc. Stalkers i really find to be lackluster, and normally i don't even get them since they are so incredibly weak to hydras, lings, and roaches.
If the zerg goes mass lings, i can cut down his lings surround by putting up force fields on my zealots backside, this means that he is forced to fight my lings in a 1 to 1 ratio on the front, and means that his units will not be nearly as effective. Also there is the added bonus of my sentrys attacking them from range while his units cannot.
If they go for roaches, FF can be used to cut them off at your ramp, force them to fight your zealots (as they will normally try to run away, attack, run away attack) by putting a wall behind them, or separate half of their army off to divide their forces.
Against mutas, sentries provide good air attack support and obviously the shield which really nerfs mutas damage, however the key here is that the muta can harass your base, while you are basically forced to play catchup with slower sentries. Therefore, it is best to force him to defend his base with a supeior force of zealots, sentries, and immortals, along with good FF and shield usage. Most all zerg will go for a fast roach push to try to contain you and then go for a FE. When they go for FE, it is time to out produce them and nail their expansion. After this it should be GG. Expect to see mutas somewhere after the first big roach push, and have sentries ready for them, since you would have made them for any other strat they would have used anyway
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OP I would have abandoned the void ray thing after I saw he tried to double expand. I'd wait for the third hatch to finish so he can't cancel. The void rays look like they come out pretty late and if zerg went hydra he could have had at least 5 hydras out with more morphing in about to pop. Like others have said you wait too long for the 3 vr. This is probably why people attack with two or attack with the first one and have the second one follow after it's done.
As a sidenote this is why zerg can't go muta against a toss mid game push. The push comes around the 7:30-8:30 mark and 7 mutas pop after the 9 minute mark. Even on a big map at the furthest positions except maybe desert oasis and scrapyard, he can basically sacrifice his units for zerg's second hatch or a ton of drones and can easily outproduce zerg's army at that point.
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Timing attack is usually the norm vs mutas
If it goes lategame, you need blink or you lose
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On April 13 2010 04:17 go4it wrote:
I see majority of player agree that Stalkers + Sentry is counter to mutas. With that I agree.
But I dont agree with mass sentries againts mutas. Mutas eat sentries in mass.
So, my suggestion is mass stalkers, possible with blink, + few sentries for shield.
Just my 2 cents.
actually mass sentry>mass muta
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On April 20 2010 07:41 guitarizt wrote:
OP I would have abandoned the void ray thing after I saw he tried to double expand. I'd wait for the third hatch to finish so he can't cancel. The void rays look like they come out pretty late and if zerg went hydra he could have had at least 5 hydras out with more morphing in about to pop. Like others have said you wait too long for the 3 vr. This is probably why people attack with two or attack with the first one and have the second one follow after it's done.
As a sidenote this is why zerg can't go muta against a toss mid game push. The push comes around the 7:30-8:30 mark and 7 mutas pop after the 9 minute mark. Even on a big map at the furthest positions except maybe desert oasis and scrapyard, he can basically sacrifice his units for zerg's second hatch or a ton of drones and can easily outproduce zerg's army at that point.
Thank you guys, i am not more successful in pvz than before. (actually my most successful MU)
Here's my little summary of more success:
basically, if opponnent not going mass roaches,then just gota get that robo out and make an observer first and check what he is doing. if he goes mutas, build stalkers accordingly along with other units (sentries and zlots) at the same time expand and make some cannons in each base (since you need the forge to upgrade attack anyways).
If he continues to go all-in mutas then stack a little more cannons and research blink. i play defensive because i know that if he keeps going mutas he will eventually be at disadvantage since mutas arn't that effective in masses (any unit isn't good in masses except marauders). use ob to check for further expansions. once his mutas get grinded down a little by cannons and blinktalkers, push out with your much more dominant ground force consisting of charged lots, sentries, stalkers, and immortals/ colossus. attack his newest expansions or high yield expansions and continue to put pressure on him.( dont go all in if you rnt sure, zerg reproduce much faster than any race). and basically hunger ur opponnent while expanding urself with stacked cannons.
This is roughly the idea of my facing zergs now, and im just a rank 10 gold player so that's my 2 cents. Thanks for all the help guys
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I honestly think Sentries/Stalkers is the best combination of Mass Mutas. Immortals and Zealots will do no good ( No AA capacity <.<.)
And if the Zerg switches to Roaches or Hydra, then Colossi or Immortals is what's needed.
Sentries are actually great against mutas ( They cost 50 less minerals and 100 sentries will beat 100 mutas even without Guardian Shield.) and Stalkers are decent now that they deal 10 dmg to mutas instead of 8.
As mentioned previously, Phoenixes and Voidrays are poor counters to mutas.
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On April 20 2010 12:26 RoarMan wrote:
I honestly think Sentries/Stalkers is the best combination of Mass Mutas. Immortals and Zealots will do no good ( No AA capacity <.<.)
And if the Zerg switches to Roaches or Hydra, then Colossi or Immortals is what's needed.
Sentries are actually great against mutas ( They cost 50 less minerals and 100 sentries will beat 100 mutas even without Guardian Shield.) and Stalkers are decent now that they deal 10 dmg to mutas instead of 8.
As mentioned previously, Phoenixes and Voidrays are poor counters to mutas.
Trouble is with a purely sentry/stalker army you're wide open to speedling flanks while trying to fight mutas anywhere but in your own base, effectively handing the whole map over to the zerg and ultimately win him the game if he's patient enough to starve you. It's a real problem against smart zerg these days.
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On April 20 2010 12:31 WorkersOfTheWorld wrote:Show nested quote +On April 20 2010 12:26 RoarMan wrote:
I honestly think Sentries/Stalkers is the best combination of Mass Mutas. Immortals and Zealots will do no good ( No AA capacity <.<.)
And if the Zerg switches to Roaches or Hydra, then Colossi or Immortals is what's needed.
Sentries are actually great against mutas ( They cost 50 less minerals and 100 sentries will beat 100 mutas even without Guardian Shield.) and Stalkers are decent now that they deal 10 dmg to mutas instead of 8.
As mentioned previously, Phoenixes and Voidrays are poor counters to mutas.
Trouble is with a purely sentry/stalker army you're wide open to speedling flanks while trying to fight mutas anywhere but in your own base, effectively handing the whole map over to the zerg and ultimately win him the game if he's patient enough to starve you. It's a real problem against smart zerg these days.
This is what bothers me, especially maps like Desert Oasis. If you go heavy sentry/stalked with blink you have really no mobility. Would it be better to just cannon up your entire base and arrange your buildings in a sim city style? I usually put 3 cannon on my mineral line but then he will just harrass my other important buildings.
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Stalkers w blink are a good counter for mutas. Blink in and then Shift macro focus fire on the mutas killing one or two at a time will significantly reduce his harrasing possibilites as its gona take time for him to keep sending new mutas across the map to your base. Once his numbers are reduced and youve been able to establish a few cannons you can then expand or attack as the zerg is now forced to switch tech units.
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on certain map, PvZ mass muta is unstopable and you have to cheese out of it or wish that ur enemy is a noob.
on some map that you can forge canon FE, try to start mining gas at the nature b4 mining mineral so that you always hv enough gas for sentry which is the hard counter to muta.
make sure you hv the right number of wrapgates to react in time since with zergling, u cant scout their base that easy and the only info u may hv is from the watch tower.
try to get charges and zealot sentries (+imo if u could) and u should be fine
notice that this only apply on the maps that you can get your nat safely
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Plat toss-
countering mass(10+) muta without air is extremely difficult as toss. Because your army will get destroyed unless you keep it in a ball, defending multiple bases is impossible without a bunch of cannons or air.
Not only is it hard to defend, but also zerg is able to easily expand and take the map while he is keeping you at home with muta harass. If you are being harassed and need to tech to air, I would suggest attacking his main (or at least pressuring) to keep his mutas at home while you tech to air.
Basically: Stalker/Sentry is effective for fighting muta, but not for countering muta harass.
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If you see him going muta, either he is on one base or it has been long enough for you to take an expansion yourself. Either way, you should be able to match him on a sentry count and then some, when I go mutas against protoss I pray they don't have many sentry. Also, zergs who go mutas generally have a pretty lackluster ground army that can easily be cleaned up by your gateway units.
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On April 21 2010 02:08 BDF92 wrote:
If you see him going muta, either he is on one base or it has been long enough for you to take an expansion yourself.
False.
Any zerg smart enough to threaten with speedlings can keep a protoss player in his base, hiding behind zeals or forcefield, almost indefinetly. There is no way to break out an expo in these conditions. Even if you manage to get enough lots to cover your natural, they can run by and take out probes in your main. This starts the contain that mutas finish.
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The standard p push will keep the z at bay. If he does have muta at this time, he'll have to defend the push and invest extra minerals in defense whether it by crawlers or roaches, etc. If he does defend this and sends mutas to your base, you should have enough stalkers to defend it.
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What's your average apm, if you don't mind me asking?
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On April 21 2010 03:54 FiRewater wrote:
The standard p push will keep the z at bay. If he does have muta at this time, he'll have to defend the push and invest extra minerals in defense whether it by crawlers or roaches, etc. If he does defend this and sends mutas to your base, you should have enough stalkers to defend it.
Standard P zeal push is map and position dependant though. If you're on steppes, great. If you're cross map on metalopolis, LT, or oasis/scrap, you'll be too far away to apply significant pressure.
Defending mutas at your main is easy. It's the containment part that's hard to deal with.
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I'll chime in with the mass sentries / stalkers counter. What I love about this is that it allows you to be flexible down the road. Mass sentries with some stalkers will just chew through muta's like it's no bodies business, but after that if your opponent tries to tech switch to hydra's or down to roaches(assuming you've micro is on the ball) you can easily go through with great use of force fields and mop the floor with that as well.
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I'm not trying to troll but does a mutalisk army exist without sentries roaches? They are the obvious units to make given mutalisks will suck up most of your gas, and yet people don't seem to be expecting them.
And in particular roach/ling are great against sentry stalker. So it kind of bothers me that people are suggesting sentry/stalker without really accounting for the zerg's non-gas units. Force field helps but the zerg isn't going to smash his army into yours in an easy choke point.
I think blinking stalkers is the answer, use sentries to eat up your gas but i'd also focus on forge upgrades Hold the stalkers in-base to defer harassment until you can push. You need to push to make the zerg defend with his mutas, as that's not really what he wants to do.
Warp in reinforcements to your base and build a few cannons. Maybe go for templar.
I still have trouble dealing with mass muta.
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I don't think mass mutas is really the threat unless the Zerg sees that you're struggling to respond with stalkers & sentries. The typical Zerg "story" (to use a Day9 term) when using mutas goes like this:
1. Open with speedlings/roaches to defend against early Protoss Pressure
2. Transition into Muta harass. This will force the Protoss to get more stalkers & sentries and delay immortals/colossi.
3. Mass roaches & expand while Mutas are harassing. Avoid direct engagement with stalker-sentry army - the key is to contain with the threat of Mutas. If Protoss pushes, take out all his probes with mobile Mutas and then defend at base with Spines, Roaches, & Mutas. This push will usually determine the game and Zerg usually has the defender's advantage because he will have plenty of minerals for Spines and will always know when it's coming.
4. If contain is successful, Zerg is now all over the map and can throw units at the Protoss until he loses.
The Protoss really does not have many options here. Stalkers & sentries will beat Mutas in a straight-up fight but the Zerg will never throw his Mutas into a straight-up fight and sentries lack the mobility to chase them. The Protoss pretty much has to win in his push at step #3 to have any chance because there's no way he can match Zerg map control with S&S.
The beauty of the Muta strategy is that it straight-up delays the three most powerful counters against mass roaches - immortals, colossi, and FF. Sure, with enough S&S you can still push out with this army and beat the Zerg, but the point of the Muta strategy is to delay that push for as long as possible by forcing the Protoss to get a unit composition that he does not want when facing the inevitable mass roaches and spine crawlers that he's going to meet at the Zerg's base. Thus, by the time the Protoss actually has enough to push out, the Zerg is already way ahead in economy and can macro up a storm.
To be honest I was wondering whether someone had a Phoenix + DT strategy (ala Bisu's counter to Savior) that would work against this kind of Zerg muta transition, but the sheer staying power of roaches might make this untenable.
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Mutas are pretty brutal in this if they are allowed time to mass them. Honestly, stop it before it happens. Most of my games pvz have to end before mid game because good zerg players seem to steam roll if allowed to expand and start pumping units.
Anyway, Ide say open with 1 robo and 3 gate. If you know they have roaches, immortals are a must. If you spot a spire going up with observers or scouting. Start getting temps. Protoss has weak anti air IMO, stalkers can hold mutas off in numbers, but psi storm is your friend in pvz.
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PJA: That sounds . . . exactly like the usage of Corsairs in BW.
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Try to atleast have some cannons up behinde your mineral lines to make the zerg atleast hesitate to just fly in. Sentrys are really strong vs mutas if they get to sheild and work away at them but any good zerg player will just out position you since protoss really have the worst anti air in the beta atm. Mass stalkers with blink and good use of observers really counters mass muta if you got the micro to use your stalkers you can just blink and snipe them of 1 after 1 and stalker sentry works well vs the other zerg units they zerg might switch to after mutas aswell hydras/roaches. Same there use shield forcefields and blink to out position the zerg or make chokes that works to your advantage and blink the stalkers that get focused down to the back of your army to let them regain shield points. Works alot better then void rays atm
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Counters
- Stalkers: they rip them up and force the muta user to micro well to be at all effective -- and then can be turned into an offensive unit
- Counter-harrass: effectively micro'ing mutas around the toss base dodging stalkers and managing several bases is really hard. Make it harder by dropping DTs in undetected areas (which should be easy to figure out because you have the best scout in the game). Seriously as a Zerg player this is a huge pain in the ass. You can call it "counter-harrass" but it might get you the win straight up anyway. The goal should be to disrupt his macro so he has to retreat his mutas because reinforcements won't be coming or they will be thin. This along with phoenixes killing overlords and sniping queens (obviously do not engage the mutas because you will rarely have enough of them). Do not go void rays because they will just be muta food. If you can force him to make a lot of hydras that you can storm or own with colossi, that seems to be a good approach. DTs make a nice transition into...
- High templars: these are a serious threat if the Zerg player is massing mutas. It forces them to use a ridiculous amount of APM to attack the toss base without them all going poof. The nice thing about this is that you can put together a comprehensive build that goes from DTs --> HTs --> archons (if needed).
- Have a plan for expansion before mutas are a problem: cannons are so effective against mutas that if you plan ahead and get cannons up with good timing you won't have a problem at all and they'll be forced to tech to brood lords, buying you time with a new expansion.
* Also, from my experience when I see them playing defensively and going to HTs, I will take more bases and just mass roaches. By this time I usually win because I can make so many of them. They won't be a waste like is often the case in the early game because the toss player rarely has the foresight or scouting to switch back to immortals. Don't make this mistake.
Sometimes the best defense is a good offense. In the case of Protoss, it couldn't be more true. There are no easy solutions, but hopefully I've given some ideas to work into a counter build.
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Gaaaah, just had another stupidfest on Desert Oasis with Muta harass. 
I honestly cannot come up with a good counter to it. Like someone earlier in the thread said, Stalkers and Sentries will hold back Muta harass, but it won't cause casualties if the Zerg isn't cocky. The Zerg just needs to keep going back and forth, and slowly massing more and more Mutas to complete the critical mass ball of death.
If you go Stalkers/Sentries, they just mass more Mutas.
If you go Phoenixes, you get owned by a tech switch to ground.
If you go HTs, you often can't do enough damage each Psi Storm to warrant the cost.
Very obnoxious strat to fight against. Particularly on that map.
Think I'm going to try Phoenixes again next time and try not to go too heavy on the Phoenix count, nor try a brain-dead Void Ray attack afterwards. Just go straight to Collossi, under the assumption that he's switching.
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I think that phoenixes really catch too much shit. (even though they could use a little more "punch" or something)
Like PJA says there are several strengths to them, overlord hunting being one that seems to be neglected often.
Phoenixes are also one of the only units that can compete with mutas on a speed basis. I've seen plenty of games that result in a protoss player trying to catch mutas, and failing, even with blinkers.
Stalkers and sentries are great to have in almost any situation, but against mutas you need something fast, phoenixes.
The zerg player cannot be everywhere at once. Use a zerg mass-expand against them. Use phoenixes to get in, pick off a few units, like isolated queens or overloads at their expansion, and get out.
After you have fended off a muta attack with phoenixes, gain map control, try building 2-3 void rays to bring down any expansions.
The key is to not sink too much resources into the air, that you cannot defeat the likely soon to come ground army
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Highway makes a good point on the counter with DTs.
Of all 3 races (just from the number of games i've watched)
zerg players tend to neglect detection more than T or P.
( T should always have some Orb. Cmds. around, and P should always have an obs.)
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When you check the spire, you should time it and rush before or right mutas come up.
That is the best way. Or if you are harrassed early, well can go two stargate pheonix...
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EPT
