EPTAnother note I guess it really is map dependent. In maps like Lost Temple, Kulas Ravine or Steppes of War (I think Scrap Station is possible also), Mech is a nice option because of easy expansions. Mainly Macro maps will favour Mech play. But maps like Blistering Sands, Desert Oasis, Bio is better (maybe with mech support).
[G] TvP Mech in SC2 - An Introduction - Page 3
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jamvng
Canada244 Posts
Another note I guess it really is map dependent. In maps like Lost Temple, Kulas Ravine or Steppes of War (I think Scrap Station is possible also), Mech is a nice option because of easy expansions. Mainly Macro maps will favour Mech play. But maps like Blistering Sands, Desert Oasis, Bio is better (maybe with mech support). | ||
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Floophead_III
United States1832 Posts
I actually find steppes of war fairly weak for mech because it's so hard to deal with the tiny rush distance, and hellions have no good harass paths. I honestly don't like that map at all cause you basically spawn in your opponent's natural. It's like the bloodbath of SC2. Bio rushes hit harder and faster there. I still mech there, but I think perhaps a 2 rax pressure into mech might be stronger just because you basically have to walk 10 seconds to be in your opponent's base. I'd love to see some REAL macro maps show up (perhaps with the reset?) Think about how maps like andromeda and fighting spirit play. I'd like to see more of that in sc2. I know Blizzard wants it to be a fast, action-packed game, but I would say that macro maps will spawn a more interesting game strategically, and provide more insight into the balance. Lord knows the original LT in BW was so imbalanced =P | ||
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jamvng
Canada244 Posts
On March 18 2010 11:55 Floophead_III wrote: I'd love to see some REAL macro maps show up (perhaps with the reset?) Think about how maps like andromeda and fighting spirit play. I'd like to see more of that in sc2. I know Blizzard wants it to be a fast, action-packed game, but I would say that macro maps will spawn a more interesting game strategically, and provide more insight into the balance. Lord knows the original LT in BW was so imbalanced =P Some macro maps would be pretty awesome. Not that the current maps aren't good, in fact the opposite. Blizzard has learnt a lot in regards to map making. But we're just missing some potentially awesome games that could come up in Macro maps. It would encourage different styles of play. And you have to admit, macro maps really made some SC1 maps great to watch. | ||
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knyttym
United States5797 Posts
SImply the build is 1gate -> Robo off of no units and build immortal right when robo finishes (no obs). Attack with either 1 or 2 immortals + stalkers. The build was played several times in the Day[9] daily and through a series of games, was shown to tear mech openings apart. Now this was before the gateway build time was increased so I'm not too sure how valid it is now but I'm assuming the build time difference does not play too huge of a role. My question is have you faced an immortal rush against your 1fac FE and how did the build fare? Also I thought that if the protoss could not break your ramp he could camp your natural with 3 or so immortals + a very small amount of zeals or a stalker. Siege expand was really strong in SC1 because you could hold off a decent amount of dragoons with repair while throwing out 70 damage per shot. However leaving most tanks at top of ramp and using 1 below ramp to scare away units does not work on immortals. No amount of scvs will save you from a 150 damage volley all the while immortals are only taking 10 damage from siege. So second question is how will you expand against a containing immortal force that attempts to pick off tanks coming down the ramp? Ok couldn't find a better example but I guess this is ok. Start at 11:40-11:52 Dragoons run outside siege range. Another tank comes down to scare goons away and through decent micro clears the units out. Now imagine if it was SC2 and those were 3 immortals. How will you plant your command center without waiting to build up like 6tanks? | ||
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Floophead_III
United States1832 Posts
I will say that I've lost on blistering sands because of the backdoor, so you really gotta be careful on maps with backdoors. I'm not a fan of the whole backdoor into main thing anyways. I might actually start opening with more than 4 marines since they counter immortals so well. It really depends on the map/what I scout though. Everything in starcraft 2 is, and should be reactionary to an extent. A player who is inflexible is a bad player. edit: Didn't see your followup question regarding contains. I think your goal would be to put tanks just out of range of the immortals on the ledge/behind your wall. I almost always bunker below my ramp in such a way that it can shield tanks as they move down, so this can't really occur. To kill my tanks they have to bunker dive. To kill my bunker they have to move into range of tanks. Also, unsieged tanks are MUCH better than sieged vs immortals and small forces of stalkers. I prefer to not siege too early and be really really careful with them. If immortals are moving in to attack run the tanks away and let the bunkers get some shots off/block with scvs. It's legitimately not easy. I would equate it to trying to expo vs a 10/15 in BW. | ||
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knyttym
United States5797 Posts
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Rucky
United States717 Posts
On March 18 2010 14:44 Floophead_III wrote: I have played vs a hardcore immortal rush multiple times. I think with a 1 fact FE you HAVE to get a bunker. It's not even an option really unless you see them early expo as well (where you can be assured of no early pressure). First thing is you gotta make your bunker attack the immortal to bring its shields down. Then you gotta keep your tanks (I think you should have 2, maybe 3 on a bigger map) out of range of everything at all costs. I often have to pull some scvs to repair or even get in the way and attack. Scvs rape immortal shields ironically, and they get in the way of stalkers/immortals so your tanks can demolish them from safety. Really the important thing is scouting. Usually I'll know it's coming because I scan it. I will say that I've lost on blistering sands because of the backdoor, so you really gotta be careful on maps with backdoors. I'm not a fan of the whole backdoor into main thing anyways. I might actually start opening with more than 4 marines since they counter immortals so well. It really depends on the map/what I scout though. Everything in starcraft 2 is, and should be reactionary to an extent. A player who is inflexible is a bad player. edit: Didn't see your followup question regarding contains. I think your goal would be to put tanks just out of range of the immortals on the ledge/behind your wall. I almost always bunker below my ramp in such a way that it can shield tanks as they move down, so this can't really occur. To kill my tanks they have to bunker dive. To kill my bunker they have to move into range of tanks. Also, unsieged tanks are MUCH better than sieged vs immortals and small forces of stalkers. I prefer to not siege too early and be really really careful with them. If immortals are moving in to attack run the tanks away and let the bunkers get some shots off/block with scvs. It's legitimately not easy. I would equate it to trying to expo vs a 10/15 in BW. wow! that is an eye opener that unseiged tanks work against immortals. unseiged tanks have a cooldown of about 1 compared to 3 of seiged tanks. since it's 10 damage either way, that seems very significant. triple the dps! | ||
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Floophead_III
United States1832 Posts
Important note: For those who don't know already, you can fly along the edges of every map, so you can be dropped from basically any angle unlike in SC1. It's a serious flaw in map design IMO I think perhaps it may be required to follow up any FE attempt with a ghost academy, or build it as you're building that CC. Getting my expo up isn't an issue. Not dying after I do is the problem. I have to check the timings and see what's viable. I've noticed that these two players got a lot more stalkers than I'm used to seeing, and even made multiple robos. Ghosts pretty much are a requirement past earlygame, and the earlier you get them the better. I do think that the immortal production time could be increased, since we're looking at a unit that builds as fast as a gateway unit which is a 4 food unit that completely craps on buildings/armored and has a ton of hp. What we're seeing right now is definitely an issue where you can make as many immortals as they have tanks just because of chrono. So in summary. Ghost academy has to be part of a BO. Ghosts have to be out not much long after your expo goes down in an FE. And phase prisms are ridiculously strong due to map design. | ||
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kickinhead
Switzerland2069 Posts
- Tanks come out later and aren't as good as in SC1. - Tanks on cliffs in your base to shoot down incoming attacks aren't as good either, because so many Units don't care about cliffs and just run over them, like Collossi for example. Try to defend with Tanks against Collossi: It doesn't work, but it should, because Tanks are the Backbone of Terran Mech. Also, The Opponent can just attack from another angle so you have to relocate the Tanks just so the opponent can run away and attack elsewhere. - Mech-Anti-Air comes kinda late and isn't that good as when using Bio. - Going Mech early is very hard to defend against Warpgate-rushes with extremely fast reinforcement. - Mech-Units can easily be countered by hard-counter-Units like Immortal VS Tanks, Mutas VS Tanks/Hellions. - Mech is soooo slow with Thors/Tanks so it's very hard to push out on the Map without getting counterattacked, flanked etc. This allows the opponent to Macro up incredibly fast with no chance for the Terran to recover. - Against P, you pretty much need very fast EMP. I'd only use Mech in TvT, because lots of players go for Tanks, which are very hard to deal with when you just have Bio. Also, lot's of Terrans tend to go fast-banshees, against which it's nice to have Vikings and Ravens. Ah yes; There's one other exception: Hellions work very nice against Z, but most of the time, you'll switch back to Bio after the Z goes for roaches and maybe Mutas. | ||
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jamvng
Canada244 Posts
On March 18 2010 18:04 kickinhead wrote: I still don't think Mech is that good of an Option because of various reasons: - Tanks come out later and aren't as good as in SC1. Wait why do tanks come out later? They require the same amount of tech as in SC1. On March 18 2010 18:04 kickinhead wrote: - Tanks on cliffs in your base to shoot down incoming attacks aren't as good either, because so many Units don't care about cliffs and just run over them, like Collossi for example. Try to defend with Tanks against Collossi: It doesn't work, but it should, because Tanks are the Backbone of Terran Mech. Also, The Opponent can just attack from another angle so you have to relocate the Tanks just so the opponent can run away and attack elsewhere. Collosi come out a lot later..u shud have a few tanks by the time he gets one Colossus. (I'm not sure though, I'm just thinking that if immortals come out when the tanks come, Colossus would take even longer since they require an extra building and take longer to build). On March 18 2010 18:04 kickinhead wrote: - Mech-Anti-Air comes kinda late and isn't that good as when using Bio. - Going Mech early is very hard to defend against Warpgate-rushes with extremely fast reinforcement. You don't have to worry too much about air early mid game. Because if they go straight to air, say Void Rays, a few marines can deal with them. And it will cause their ground army to be weak. On March 18 2010 18:04 kickinhead wrote: - Mech-Units can easily be countered by hard-counter-Units like Immortal VS Tanks, Mutas VS Tanks/Hellions. - Mech is soooo slow with Thors/Tanks so it's very hard to push out on the Map without getting counterattacked, flanked etc. This allows the opponent to Macro up incredibly fast with no chance for the Terran to recover. - Against P, you pretty much need very fast EMP. . Immortals are countered by Marines and EMP. A mech push was slow too in SC1, but it was powerful when you reach that critical amount of tanks. And there's nothing wrong with getting a fast EMP. | ||
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