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On March 02 2010 03:56 PredY wrote:
i don't think pure mech is really good because there are no mines. against good a protoss that will defend your harass you will simply lose
bio-mech is the way.
Yes, there are no mines, but you do have the added benefit of ghosts and your "vultures" now do splash. That and zealots take full damage from sieged up tanks, stalkers are much worse than dragoons, and immortals can't be made with the gateway so they're really difficult to mass up. It's a different game, so I don't think you can simply make a generalization like this just because mines are missing.
I do agree that biomech may in fact prove to be viable, or even better. This guide is not about whether biomech strats are good or not. This guide simply talks about mech. It does not say mech is the best option. It simply gives reasons why I believe it is better than pure bio. You can even disagree with the interpretation, but the reasoning is explained quite clearly in the guide. If you feel that my conclusions are wrong, explain why in more than 1 sentence. I'm just trying to get more in depth and thoughtful posts in this thread, as I feel it's turning into way too much bashing and way too little analysis.
As for those who feel the replays don't prove anything, go out and play your own games and post up your own replays (or give them to me to look at) so we can see what happens at "higher level" games. If there are serious flaws with what I say, they will be consistent and apparent.
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I really want to see terrans sensory tower and bunker alot more across the map. Sensory towers = no chance for a surprise flank, and bunkers are salveagable for 100% minerals. Should make for some nice slowly pushing terran ball IMO^^
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On March 02 2010 04:53 Feefee wrote:
I really want to see terrans sensory tower and bunker alot more across the map. Sensory towers = no chance for a surprise flank, and bunkers are salveagable for 100% minerals. Should make for some nice slowly pushing terran ball IMO^^
Yah I should seriously need to start using the Sensor tower, its a lazy mans way of scouting haha.
It might be powerful to transition into mass tank mid-game from a bio opening after you have EMP, but I don't think opening as tanks is very viable.
You could try to open Hellion, add some bio, then pump tanks + EMP and just make sure u realize the air vulnerability and can react to/scout protoss air. The bio mid-game would help stop any air transition from ur opponent (lol if u try to use thors for this) and gives u the ability to use bunkers for a powerful defense while reaching a critical mass of tanks. It also helps deal with Stalkers/Immortals the Hellions force ur opponent into early game. Opening with bio might also work, but then I feel like the transition wouldn't be as smooth and it will mostly just be a bio-mech army as opposed to mech.
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Having BOTH players at a low level of skill doesn't necessarily invalidate a strategy, nor does a lack of early game aggression from either side.
It would be helpful to have players at all skill levels competing with this focus to get a better idea of where it works and where it fails. Obviously you wouldn't want to pursue a strategy long-term that doesn't work at a medium or high level of skill, but that's yet to be determined. The best Terran player in Beta right now is rushing Hellions first against zerg on most maps - we have hardly got this game completely figured out in less than 2 weeks.
Additionally, two players at a low skill level could be using the right strategies and just fail to make them really click or shine. Maybe they lack the ability to do everything necessary to make the strategy work - is that a flaw in the strategy or the implementation?
On the other point, you'll often see pro players in Starcraft take 'aggressive' actions in the early game by expanding/teching, effectively forcing their opponent to keep up by doing the same. Terran has always been able to do this by turtling and this is hardly different.
I'm not arguing that heavy mech will work or that floop is qualified to comment on it. I'm saying we're like 10 days into beta - the conversation is still open and everything needs extensive testing.
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mixed army works best
unless your opponent isn't mixing his army and you just mass the counter unit
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On March 02 2010 06:07 GGTeMpLaR wrote:
mixed army works best
unless your opponent isn't mixing his army and you just mass the counter unit
yeah i think so.
anyway
i think when you go pure mech, the problem is P has really quick observers and sees everything and watchtowers give huge vision boost too. basically you can't sneak any hellions out, only in dropship, which will probably be scouted (starport) by the obs. it's almost impossible to take third early, only island expo imo (not all maps have islands). that means you gotta mass from 2 base with almost no chance to harass or anything - P has complete map control because of no mines. when you move out with tanks+hellions+couple of thors, you can get easily owned by air (void rays) or the P will have enough to beat you. i actually won quite many games going mech, but it was mainly because wrong reaction from protoss (even white-ra massed lots and stalkers = no chance vs mech). but draco beat me with a lot of lots, he burnt the hellions by colossi, used sentries and immortals and mothership. truth is i had late emp though and almost no vikings so.. i still think if P responds right, it's so hard to pull it off
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I think the new core TvP army is going to be marauder/hellion (and possibly reactor hellion, but lots of P are skipping zeal mid game too).
Tank/ghost are the main support. You'll probably see timings with 3 tanks (one shot stalkers), or emp as the first move out.
Late game, you will actually probably see BCs and thors as support in the same way. Thor to match their colossus count (since they can one shot colossus) and BC against MS/carriers, since BC is pretty much the only way to kill a MS.
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Mixing the army certainly isn't impossible either - going heavy on tanks will leave you gas starved with plenty of minerals to spare.
There are 4 things you can do with a ton of minerals as Terran focusing on mech:
-Build Helions
-Build Turrets
-Expand Again
-Build Marines
Marines aren't awful - you don't really need to think about HP/Armor upgrades if you're mostly throwing them in bunkers or pitting them against Void Rays. They don't benefit much from it in either case.
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I do think you have a good case Predy when you bring up that it's hard to take a 3rd, but that's partially a map-based problem. I think it may actually be that it's like the way TvZ Mech works, in that you have to use mech on maps with easy thirds, but more bio oriented play is better suited to maps with difficult to secure thirds.
I think the maps right now are seriously influencing playstyles.
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Maps have always influenced playstyles. The professional style of Broodwar is largely a result of map design to make it that way because it's entertaining and flashy for spectators to watch giant macro fights.
That said, I think doing a breakdown of each map and important parts/placements would help people use mech (specifically, tanks).
For instance, it's difficult to guard your natural on Desert Oasis with tanks because of the distance between it and your ramp. Fast expanding will be very difficult. However, you CAN offensively setup tanks outside your opponent's base to both seal their ramp AND threaten their mineral line. This basically forces an all-in push to break your contain or they lose.
Grainy map picture below. Imagine tanks and bunkers directly to the Northeast of the Blue starting area, or directly to the Southwest of the Red starting area.
How do you consistently set this up without being broken/overrun in the process? I've done it in a few games but on the whole, I have no idea.
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yeah i agree some maps aren't that good, like the desert oasis. for example on kulas ravine you can get 3base easy so THEORETICALY the pure mech there should be good. on top of that, there are plenty of clifs ideal for dropship play.
i'm gonna try some biomech build though.
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agreed.. map design is important... they shud get some of those korean map makers to start making maps ><
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I played a few games without ghosts just to see what would happen, and actually I don't feel that it severely impacted my ability to combat his army. The splash damage on a 150+ food mech army is outrageous. Immortals are not so scary at that point. I think ghosts definitely can turn close victories into decisive ones and many losses into victories though. I also noticed that I had enough extra gas most of the game that I could afford ghosts pretty easily. I need to find a really good spot to insert them into my BOs still. Definitely some food for thought for you guys =D
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I had the pleasure of witnessing Floophead's games live, and I was quite surprised with the results. While I was rooting for him, I was honestly expecting him to get rolled over with a mech fe build. Unseiged tanks are more powerful than I realized. Despite a few micro and macro mistakes, probably due to testing a new build, he was still able to hold off against the toss well. The big push mid to late game very effective as well, only being stopped by carriers. I'm sure as he practices and perfects the BO it's going to be very effective, especially for macro oriented players. Great work Floop, and I'm going to start practicing mech very soon 
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Goddamn carriers.... ruined me in CSL and are ruining me in SC2 =D
I think I didn't need to overcommit to thors on top of my vikings, lower tank count ruined me later =/
Thank you Seele!
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I hate carriers, they ruin my fun when ever i try to do a mech style play
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Has anybody figured out a way to incorporate battlecruisers into TvP effectively without being killed for trying it?
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On March 01 2010 19:26 fragamemnon wrote:Check out the Jump(T) vs. White-Ra(P) on Scrap Station replay over at Orz SC2 1v1 Replays . Jump does some killer work using mech to expand out and secure bases, and then using Hellion/Tank/Thor and SCVs building turrets to slow push right up the map. He does this against some amazing shuttle play from White-Ra (which is worth watching if you play P, it's very, very good). I think in this case the map is really mech-friendly due to the high ground that can be used to cover your third and the island expansion.
Did anyone watched this game?
I found it quite enjoyable. I think it kinda prove there's something viable in the pure mech build. I don't know Jump but White-Ra isn't some copper league player.
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I played that game vs white-ra. his mistakes was not building any immortals (or very few of them). lots + stalkers get melted by hellions and tanks.
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Emp should in theory negate immortals, if you can hit them. I've found that early on immortals aren't too bad, it's only around midgame that they become a real issue because bunkers are no longer effective. I've been losing a few games cause of the difficulties of correctly incorporating factory count + addon type + ghosts. It's not easy, I'll say that much, but it can be quite powerful.
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EPT![[image loading]](http://i49.tinypic.com/15qopiu.jpg)
