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[G] TvP Mech in SC2 - An Introduction

Forum Index > StarCraft 2 Strategy
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Floophead_III
Profile Joined September 2009
United States1832 Posts
February 28 2010 23:15 GMT
#1
Floophead's Mech TvP Guide


The purpose of this guide is to introduce players into the way to use mech-only play in starcraft 2. Players who are familiar with starcraft 1 TvP will find a lot of similar/familiar information in this guide, because most of it still applies. If you played terran in sc1, you will almost certainly have the basic skills necessary to do well with this style of play. If you are unfamiliar with mech play in sc1, this guide should teach you enough about it so that you can begin to use it in your games.

Disclaimer: There are many many articles about sc1 mech which still partially or completely apply to sc2. I do not claim to be a spectacular sc1 player. There are far better players who have written excellent material. If you are new to starcraft in general, or have never played terran in sc1, you should search around the starcraft 1 strategy section as much as you can. This guide is more of an introduction. Lastly, there is SO much about starcraft 2 we have not yet discovered. I am simply putting on paper what has been working for me in game. It does not mean that it will 100% make you win every game you play. It may very well result in a lot of losses as you experiment and learn how the style functions. Do not play this style for 2 games and then come back and say “I lost, this guide is trash.” Mech play is much more demanding in awareness, experience, and mechanics. Give it time. Only if there are consistent problems you experience which you cannot seem to overcome should you start posting. Starcraft2 is a very young game and there may be things which I am not aware of at the time of this guide which dramatically change how this style is played. I will try to stay on top of things as best I can and continue to update and maintain this guide. Feel free to PM me with specific things you’d like to see included/changed!

Now let’s begin….

+ Show Spoiler +
With the popularity of bio play in these first few weeks of beta, people have been reluctant to use mech openings. There is good reason behind that reluctance.

-Bio is much stronger early, so you can be aggressive off the bat.
-Bio is very strong with almost no micro needed, and you can 1a2a3a (or just 1a cause unlimited selection =P) into a toss army and come out on top.
-Bio does not often require good scouting/preparation/defense as it is universally strong
-Bio is more mobile so you don't need to worry about being caught with your pants down
-Lastly, bio uses low tech units which can get early, so you get to do things with your army as soon as you want which is fun

These are all great qualities of bio play, but there are downsides as well:

-Bio deals lots of low damage with many units, so armor dramatically reduces its damage output
-Bio is very vulnerable to splash damage
-Bio does not deal splash damage, so it scales linearly with force sizes
-Bio clumps big time, so splash damage is impossible to avoid except in very open areas.

Now that we've examined the alternative, let us look at the point of this guide, mech. Lets start off with all the vulnerabilities of mech that bio does not have:

-Mech requires careful positioning and control
-Mech is weak early game with only a handful of units and is very micro/position dependent
-Mech is extremely gas heavy and takes longer to build up a sizable army

Now lets see what mech excels at:

-Mech units deal large amount of damage at once
-Mech units splash, and therefore scale exponentially with army size
-Mech units have siege capability (tanks/thors with particle)

Now that we've laid out the basis for bio vs mech, let us look at why mech is the best option. Bio play weakens as the game progresses. Some may say that you can simply transition into mech, but then all the money spent on bio upgrades/production/research is completely wasted. If you do not do substantial damage with bio in the early stages or gain some sort of advantage, you are putting yourself at a disadvantage as you enter midgame/lategame.

Going with a pure mech approach allows you to do 2 things. First, you can focus on 1 production building, the factory, which serves you all game, not just the first 10 minutes. Second, you can move into midgame with a stronger army that already has some upgrades.

The skeptic right now is thinking, "you're just going to die to an early push with mech, or get out expanded because mech is super weak early." However, I can assure you that proper mech play negates both of these concerns.

The early game:
The early build order for mech is pretty much the same for all variations. First, you get your depot, then a barracks, then your first gas. At this point, just like in starcraft 1, you have to make a decision. Is my goal to secure an early expansion, or to make more production buildings? For the former you only need 1 gas until after your factory has completed and your CC started. For the latter, you want to add that 2nd gas fairly soon, so you have enough money for units/research and more production buildings. As with most builds, build scvs constantly to get your economy going.

There are 3 builds I have been using earlygame. These are as follows:

1 Fact FE:
Pretty much an exact duplicate of the sc1 siege expand. Make 4 or so marines, a factory, then expand under cover of siege tanks. The difference is gas, since sc2 has a different gas system. I stay on 1 gas til I have my CC started then I'll add the 2nd gas in my main. Siege often comes a little later than the sc1 build, but that's ok, because there are no ranged goons anymore that cause you such pains earlygame.

Make sure to add an ebay and place turrets as to protect your main/ramp/nat. Turrets will keep collosi away, drops away, and help deal with dts. The best part is they kill observers, and a blind protoss is a scared protoss.

If you scout protoss doing something outrageously aggressive, it may be wise to either take a macro loss and upgrade to a planetary fortress as soon as you land your cc and/or make a bunker or two to protect your expansion. Bunkers are your first choice, PF second. It is unlikely toss will go allin and try to break your expansion, but if he does, make sure your tanks are back, preferably in siege, so that immortals can't hit them from below, and that you have a couple tanks in your natural behind your bunker so that if he wants to attack them the bunker will fire on his units. Bunker fire will wreck immortal shields so you should have no issues holding.

Fact/Port
This build is designed to get an early helion drop into the toss minline and do maximum economic damage, plus scare him into playing defensive/punish him if he plays aggressive. Helions are like vultures + firebats. They are super fast and deal line splash damage and have an upgrade for double damage to light. Helions are a probe's worst nightmare, and this build is designed to capitalize on that.

Build a couple marines as is needed to stave off early aggression. Make sure you have your 2nd gas early. As soon as your factory completes lay down a tech lab (unless you're facing some serious zealot pressure where marines are going to have an issue, then make a helion first). Add a starport immediately. When your tech lab completes make helions and research ignitors for +10 to light. As soon as your port completes make a medivac (isn't it great that you don't need an addon for dropships now?). You should have 3 helions when you load up. You can wait for a 4th helion if you desire, but keep in mind the longer you wait the greater chance the protoss player will scout your build or have enough units to negate it. Drop helions in the back of his base and proceed to rape probes at will.

To transition, start making siege tanks and expand very similarly to the 1 Fact FE; However, you are expanding later to do some aggression early. I've had a lot of success with this build and it really catches protoss players off guard. I especially like it when they click on a mineral patch in their natural to transfer so all the probes line up for me =D

2 Fact Aggression
This build is designed to do heavy damage to an expanding protoss. It is also the safest build vs any 1 base toss play, since you have the most units and only 1 base to defend. For this build get a 2nd gas as you would for Fact/Port. Instead of a port, lay down a second factory when you have the resources. Your first factory will have a tech lab and will be producing tanks. Your second factory will be producing helions with a reactor. I like to get about 8 marines with this build, since you want to have enough to burn immortal shields early and kill off air units, especially phase prisms.

Use your OC for scanning, not mules. You need to know exactly what the toss has, and when his expansion is coming up. You should have both siege and ignitors researched for your push, but if one is still researching that's ok, it will finish by the time you get to him. The push should be timed so his expansion is up and he has transferred probes, but he has not gained any additional income from it. I find leaving when the expansion is most of the way done is a good timing, but map distance is a major factor as well. When you begin your push, start making nothing but hellions.

The Midgame Push
So, either you’ve gotten your expansion up, or you’ve opted for a 2 factory push. How do you actually engage the enemy? Well pushing in sc2 is not that much different from sc1, with the major difference: no mines. Without mines you really have to SUPER careful about flanks and map position. The good news is that in direct confrontation your army is even stronger than in sc1, because your hellions do more damage to armored, and they do splash to everything. I like to keep in mind 3 important ideas when pushing:
-What is my push designed to do, why am I pushing?
-Where do I want my army to end up?
-What is the safest path from my base to where I want to be?

Once you have established these things, you can move out. The worst thing to do on a push is push without a plan. You will end up in a bad position not dealing pressure to your enemy and he’ll just crush you like a waffle cone. Don’t be waffly in your decision making.

So, you’ve managed to push across the map with minimal pressure, and you’re sitting right outside his natural choke, but you’re not quite in range of his base. What do you do? Siege up, lay down a couple turrets (always bring a couple scvs with your push). Keep your hellions between your tanks and his force. You can’t afford immortals and stalkers getting shots on the tanks, since they just do so much damage to them. Use your hellions and your front sieged tanks to inch forward. Continue making turrets and rotating your back tanks to the front. Eventually if he does not engage you, you’ll be taking free shots on his nexus/probes and he’ll be forced to engage. The entire point of rallying hellions is so by the time you are engaging you have a wall of hellions protecting your tanks. If you have any marines on this push, use them to snipe out immortal shields.

Now sometimes you may greatly outnumber his force right then and there if he’s being super greedy. If this is the case, just get your hellions in front and attack! Unsieged tanks still do great damage to stalkers, eat through immortal shields faster, and outrange protoss units. As long as you keep those tanks alive you should be able to steamroll the protoss on the spot.

What happens if the protoss has a really strong force and lots of immortals, perhaps supported by a colossus that really eats through that line of hellions? Usually you should be spotting the massing of immortals and lower gateway unit count. Naturally, the counter to high #’s of immortals is emp. If you are doing an early push you might not have the gas for emp, but if you are doing a later push you should have that ghost academy up and at least 1 ghost with your army. EMP the immortals and then he won’t be able to approach your tankline. Focus fire on colossi if you can, they drop really fast to tanks and are a huge investment (like reavers were) for the protoss.

Adjusting your build
Lastly, I will talk a bit about adjusting your build based upon what you scout and what your midgame plan is. Because mech is gas heavy, you do NOT need to spend all your OC energy on mules. It is much more important to have reliable scouting information. Scan frequently, use hellions to poke around the map, send scvs out. You do not have the luxury of an army which is universally strong so you MUST be aware of what he is doing. I will list some of the things I have seen so far and things I’ve done to deal with them. These are not necessarily the best counters and best adjustments, but they have had success. As I, and others, play more games, we will see with greater clarity how to adjust our strategies to account for varying style of protoss play.

-2+ Gate Zealot: This build is a joke vs mech. Terran can wall off, repair early, and either use a hellion drop or even straight up hellions to dismantle zealots without being hurt. On some maps like Lost Temple, it is very easy to wall off your natural as well. You can use this to your advantage to secure a safe expansion while keeping him from expanding until he gets enough to deal with your hellions.

-Early Stargate/Voidray: First, it should be easy enough to hold off single voidrays with a handful of marines. If he does some super cheesy fast voidray since he sees you teching, you should have no problem killing it off. Feel free to pump more marines. As the game progresses you really want a nice turret ring around your main and natural so he has to engage turrets to attack anything else. Turrets are very strong and repairable, and incredibly cost effective vs voids. As you move into midgame you have 2 strong options. Lay down an armory and make thors. You’d think thors are weak vs voidrays because they are massive single targets for voids to charge up on, but they have insane GtA range and do a ton of damage to multiple targets. A few of these puppies and voidrays won’t want to get close. Thors also are built from the factory, rape ground, and have particle cannon, so you can’t go wrong with them. The other option is Vikings. Vikings require a starport to make, but 1 starport with a reactor can produce quite a few Vikings. Vikings are very mobile, unlike the clunky thor, and are easily microable, and do a TON of damage to air units. Not only that, but if the enemy transitions into carriers or mothership, having Vikings around will punish his bad decision. Vikings also are excellent support for killing immortals and colossi, and hold their own vs zealots and stalkers. They are not the most cost effective choice vs ground, but they aren’t useless.

-Zealot/Immortal/Collosus: No stalkers means no AA. You really can’t push out vs a force like this, because it is the strongest GtG force protoss can put together, but you shouldn’t have to. Banshees will be able to do whatever they want, including pick off all his power units, which will open up a window for you to push. Vikings can run around and cause mayhem as well. However, both of these options require starports which take time and money to make. Ghosts are essential vs the high immortal count and they do good damage to zealots as well. Ultimately, this kind of protoss army loses power as army sizes grow, so you’re best off just camping and trying to squeak in a 3rd while harassing with starport units. Eventually the protoss will be forced to either make stalkers or fall behind because he can’t deal with your air control.

-Carriers: Carriers suck for terran. I can’t even begin to describe how annoying it is to have an army with maybe 1-2 thors vs 6+ carriers. The importance is to scout. If you see a really low gateway count and small gateway army, but you haven’t been dealing with voidrays, he’s hidden stargates somewhere! Scout for them and push asap! You need to do damage while you still can. If in fact you can’t really push, start pumping thors from all factories with tech labs and add starports en masse. Vikings are very strong vs carriers but you won’t likely have many to begin with, so you need to catch up to him very fast. Reactors on all starports and you should be able to produce enough Vikings in time to shut down his carriers. This is the #1 most annoying thing I’ve encountered. It is also a real problem in sc1 for TvP, so this isn’t news. It does not mean carriers “counter” mech. It just simply means you need to be aware that he is in fact going carriers so you can respond appropriately.

-Mothership: Make sure you have energy for scans, and hopefully you can take down his ground army before his mothership has enough energy for vortex. If you have ghosts, use that emp on the mothership. Making a raven or two at this point in the game is not a bad idea. I view the mothership, especially after the patch, as a ridiculously annoying arbiter. It however will go down quite fast to thors and Vikings. I haven’t played vs motherships very often, but I believe they are the best way to manage a mech army (just as arbiters were in sc1) for protoss. The important thing to do is not panic, because the mothership doesn’t do anything on its own, especially if you emp it.

-DTs: Pretty much are just annoying if handled correctly. Good turret placement and saving energy for scans will make them useless. However, they are much more difficult to see than in sc1 I feel, or at least for my untrained eye. They go down ridiculously fast to tanks, hellions, ghosts, and basically anything that’s not an scv or marine. They pack a punch, so don’t accidently overlook one beating on your force in a battle. It’s very easy to not notice them (it’s happened to me) and they will eat your force alive. Just make sure you are saving energy for scans and turret appropriately and they shouldn’t be a problem.

There are many things which I haven’t really discussed here, but the fact is that in the few weeks beta has been out there hasn’t actually been enough time to encounter all the possibilities. As more things arise and more games are played terran players will know better how to react to these things. If you feel something is left out here, by all means ask me to add it! I can’t play 50 games a day, so I’m not going to see everything out there.

Parting thoughts
Hopefully now you have a rudimentary understanding of how to execute mech play. There is only so much a guide can say without a very solid metagame to build on. As people in starcraft 2 learn more about what works and what doesn’t, guides can be much more detailed and specific. For now, a lot of play will fall back on the basics (macro, scouting, micro) and less on deep strategy. Improvisation is a huge part of starcraft in general, so don’t worry if you run into a situation this guide doesn’t cover, because it almost certainly will occur. Just improvise. If it works, great! If it fails, you now know how to not react and can share that experience with everyone else.

This guide does not talk about lategame play with mech builds. The primary reason for this is because I have played so few games that extend into lategame. Most games are still ending quite early. As longer games are played I can come back and add a section regarding lategame play to this guide, but more likely specific mech strategies will have emerged, and introductory guides like this one will no longer be heavily used.

I hope that this was a thoroughly educational read for you. Now go out there and kick some protoss ass!


Replays:

TvP Mech Replays

These are only a few of many replays. They are not necessarily the best matches, but just good demonstrations of how to execute builds. My play isn't great, but the important thing is demonstrating general ideas.
Half man, half bear, half pig.
OverTheUnder
Profile Blog Joined November 2004
United States2929 Posts
March 01 2010 00:30 GMT
#2
I'm in Gold league and i just tried this after reading and watching a few of the replays. This definitely seems stronger then bio by a lot thanks

Some of my mistakes that i noticed were I forgot to make vikings with my starport soon enough...and i could have used 1-2 scans early-mid to spot those void rays.

here is the rep

http://FastFreeFileHosting.com/file/34108/TvP-2-fact-SC2Replay.html
Honor would be taking it up the ass and curing all diseases, damn how stupid can people get. -baal http://puertoricanbw.ytmnd.com/
RPGabe
Profile Joined January 2010
United States192 Posts
March 01 2010 05:06 GMT
#3
I'm also pushing myself specifically to try Mech builds in certain situations, since it seemed a bit underwhelming compared to the power of Bio originally.

I've found that it makes expanding early pretty easy to do against Protoss on maps where your ramp also overlooks your first expansion (lost temple style). However - they will either try to break you using something tricky, tech, or expand right after. Don't expect them to just try and break your turtle, fail and then die.

Going mech requires you to micro every fight. Your units do very specific types of damage against protoss and are wholly ineffective if used poorly. Unlike SC1, a "Concussive/Vs Light" damage type in SC2 does not do full damage to shields. For instance, a Helion with upgrade firing on a Stalker does not do 24 damage to his shields. He does like 8.

Typically your tanks are going to fire on incoming Zeals first. As you shift your focus to the fight, retrain them on Stalkers and then Immortals. You want your Marines/Bunkers to START on Immortals, and you want to let your Hellions just fire and get in the way of zeals that want to get to your tanks. In a big fight they need the least micro - you should be focused on having your tanks not slaughter each other or your Helions as Zeals speed into them.

Mech Anti-Air is pretty spotty. Thors kick total ass vs. air, but they're very slow - they won't be able to stop harassment on your base/mineral lines/troops etc all at once. Turrets are great so you'll need to spam them, but air will serve to make you much slower then you already were as you wait for Thor/Turret spam to move around.

Helion harass can really work wonders. I love opening this way because it really forces the opponent back into their base. I'll often keep 6-8 Helions just hanging at a XelNaga Watchtower near their base. If they ever try to move on mine, I'll wait a few seconds and then run into their backfield. It almost always drags them home and buys me time, or they just lose their entire production line and fail to all-in my turtle.

The biggest challenge I've found is transitioning from the turtle to the win. They will typically expand to keep up with you, so you need a way to challenge that and then position your superior firepower. You have to scout a lot and keep a constant eye on what they're up to.

I can't tell if it's stronger than bio in some cases, or if Protoss players just have less experience against it at this point. Guess we'll see in time!
Phelix
Profile Blog Joined July 2008
1931 Posts
March 01 2010 06:59 GMT
#4
Thor Anti-Air isn't that good, as 1 Void Ray can almost take out 1 Thor.

Have you tried a variation of opening Thor first? I find this to be very effective against any sort of 2 gate, as well as giving strong defense to secure the natural. Then I transition to a Thor/Hellion army, rather than the Siege Tank/Hellion army, since Thors have a greater damage output when being mobile, as well as being able to do a faster push.

Also, what I tend to do in TvP is use the Hellions as a meat shield, and try to burn off the Immortal shields before the Immortals fire upon my Thors/Tanks.

Late game Mech requires careful scouting of whenever the Protoss transitions into Air, especially Carriers and the Mothership.
Venture Capital is better off spent on lottery tickets rather than investing in E-Sports; you'll get a far better return. The difference is simple: Koreans are tryharding at the game, foreigners are tryharding in real-life.
fragamemnon
Profile Joined February 2009
United States20 Posts
March 01 2010 10:26 GMT
#5
Check out the Jump(T) vs. White-Ra(P) on Scrap Station replay over at Orz SC2 1v1 Replays .

Jump does some killer work using mech to expand out and secure bases, and then using Hellion/Tank/Thor and SCVs building turrets to slow push right up the map. He does this against some amazing shuttle play from White-Ra (which is worth watching if you play P, it's very, very good).

I think in this case the map is really mech-friendly due to the high ground that can be used to cover your third and the island expansion.
CharlieMurphy
Profile Blog Joined March 2006
United States22895 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-03-01 12:05:07
March 01 2010 12:00 GMT
#6
thors and medivac are as mobile as anything, pretty legit. have you tried working that in after the hellion drop?


btw, if you find yourself not using/needing scans (good scouting with SCVs) do you think using mules and the extra money on a reactor for a barracks and just pumping extra rines and depots would be a good addition to this? It could also save a bit of money on turrets.
..and then I would, ya know, check em'. (Aka SpoR)
MorroW
Profile Joined August 2008
Sweden3522 Posts
March 01 2010 12:32 GMT
#7
ive been playing bio vs toss for about 1-2 days and micro vs toss u basically have to stimpack

if his army is heavy on zealot or colosus then u put the maruder in front and if hes heavy on immortal or stalker u put rine in front

ghosts HAS to emp the toss army before the fight else the toss army is wayyy too strong and not to mention the storms

u need an edge in upgrades (dmg, armor) to stand a fight against a toss army with pure bio

if he has few zealots and many ranged units u must attack in a flanking position and attack + move closer micro to give urself 100% firepower (assuming ur army is bigger than tosses allowing him 100% firepower by standard cause of his range too)

this is pretty much everything ive learned in bio vs toss micro so far, its most definitely not just a-move (unless his army is like pure zea and stalker which is pretty much the worst anti-bio army toss can have :p)

the only problem i have atm is to fight colosuss in the composition of the toss army, air units to snipe them before the battle is the absolute best way but if he has many stalkers then u will die more than u kill :/

myself i thought, ok thor is gonna be awesome against colosus because it will freeze it and kill it, the problem is just that colosus is in the very back of toss army and the zealots or w/e blocks the thor from ranging the colosus. ive tried a couple of games until i realized it was useless, thor special ability is bad because it has too little range

sry for posting about bio here but it felt like u were underrating it quite abit on the micro/strategy aspect. bio deals a fuck ton of damage once toss army is emped. the ONLY problem is the colosus and hts, if toss couldnt use those bio would be perfect

i dont think mech is good because a: 200 psi mech doesnt seem to beat a toss army in sc2. b: macro game on 200 psi vs toss is bad because they can rebuild their stuff so damn much quicker. c: tanks take 3 psi and is not very good for its cost d: immortals r like perfect vs a mech army e: the maps blizzard has designed so far r hard to secure expoes easy on

mech is weak and u cant make a push with only mech in early or midgame from what ive seen so far. hopefully blizzard will make the helions and siege tanks better and give thor longer range (this should make t imba btw :p) but if they dont im not seeing terran having a good use of mech...
Progamerpls no copy pasterino
Aurra
Profile Blog Joined March 2008
United States469 Posts
March 01 2010 13:44 GMT
#8
A have a long TvP on my YouTube account that features pretty much every unit in the game and the Terran uses mech to very good effect.

+ Show Spoiler +

(1/4)
+ Show Spoiler +

(2/4)
+ Show Spoiler +

(3/4)
+ Show Spoiler +

(4/4)
+ Show Spoiler +

Floophead_III
Profile Joined September 2009
United States1832 Posts
March 01 2010 14:40 GMT
#9
On March 01 2010 21:32 MorroW wrote:
i dont think mech is good because a: 200 psi mech doesnt seem to beat a toss army in sc2. b: macro game on 200 psi vs toss is bad because they can rebuild their stuff so damn much quicker. c: tanks take 3 psi and is not very good for its cost d: immortals r like perfect vs a mech army e: the maps blizzard has designed so far r hard to secure expoes easy on

mech is weak and u cant make a push with only mech in early or midgame from what ive seen so far. hopefully blizzard will make the helions and siege tanks better and give thor longer range (this should make t imba btw :p) but if they dont im not seeing terran having a good use of mech...


Watch those replays, I make some pretty fast pushes successfully. Also, 200 psi mech slaughters everything so fast that anything but a 200/200 army of immortals melts instantly. Toss can replenish his troops faster, but he has to because his army can't hold up to the 200/200 mech army. It's really no different than in SC1 for the same reasons, actually amplified a bit. Mech splashes quite a bit, toss units don't. Therefore the bigger the armies get, the better for terran.

I would say mech units are completely balanced and you just haven't seen enough yet to make that call. Bio is strong, but because there exists collosi and storm you're never really going to able to make a pure bio build work vs toss. I've never lost to one while playing as protoss because well micro'd collosi > all bio anyday, emp or not. I do think bio supported by mech has a lot of potential, but ultimately I think you can't really hit that critical point where mech splash starts to take effect and the high damage output becomes high enough to bring down collosi quickly. Perhaps there's a nice balance in there, but it'll take a while to find.
Half man, half bear, half pig.
RPGabe
Profile Joined January 2010
United States192 Posts
March 01 2010 15:20 GMT
#10
Be sure to see this related thread as well - http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=114026

It concerns using Multiple Shift-Attack commands to your tanks. They will automatically split fire to not overkill. Pretty awesome!
Daxten
Profile Joined October 2009
Germany127 Posts
March 01 2010 15:51 GMT
#11
The problem is that this opening can't def against 2 immortal push which is pretty much standard play
MorroW
Profile Joined August 2008
Sweden3522 Posts
March 01 2010 16:02 GMT
#12
cant u just make carriers?

carriers r better than in sc1

and u can make void rays to suck up the thors (i think) and the mother ship should clean up any 200 psi terran army really simple, i dont see how on earth it would be possible to stop a 200 psi toss with carriers in the mix without using bio (rines r the best unit vs interceptor as far as i know)
Progamerpls no copy pasterino
Tomed
Profile Joined August 2005
United States176 Posts
March 01 2010 16:09 GMT
#13
On March 01 2010 08:15 Floophead_III wrote:
Floophead's Mech TvP Guide

Replays:

TvP Mech Replays

These are only a few of many replays. They are not necessarily the best matches, but just good demonstrations of how to execute builds. My play isn't great, but the important thing is demonstrating general ideas.


Can't tell anything from these replays. You and your opponent are below average players and it shows due to sloppy builds, a distinct lack of timings, and poor unit compositions. In every game the toss simply turtles along side of you instead of doing a simple timing push. If your opponents were any good they would know that a Terran tank build is extremely vulnerable in the first 8 minutes and would have taken advantage of this fact. After your 15 minute "no rush rule" expires the toss proceeds by building copious amounts of zealots/stalkers with little to no Immortals or HTs. When you see a Terran build 12 tanks, 20 helions, and 2 ghosts before a single battle takes place then you know something is wrong.

The OP is notorious for shit posts like these. He has already been laughed out of his own threads twice and I'm sure this one will be no exception.
MrMoose
Profile Joined June 2009
Canada176 Posts
March 01 2010 16:13 GMT
#14
One question: how would building a tech lab on your rax and making 2 or so marauders before lifting rax and landing ur fact there affect the early game build? It seems to me (no beta ) that it is worth looking into whether it gets you a tank out faster or if the gas cost of the marauders would make it not worthwhile. Marauders are just so strong early on. Maybe even building a tech lab and just making marines would even be worthwhile?
When in doubt, lubricate!
Floophead_III
Profile Joined September 2009
United States1832 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-03-01 16:21:47
March 01 2010 16:14 GMT
#15
Morrow, it is clear to me you didn't read the guide in its entirety, since I posted a section on how to handle carriers. Basically, you have to scout it coming and get an appropriate number of vikings. Thors help as well, but vikings won't be distracted by ground units and really tear through carriers. In addition, going carriers opens a timing window, just as it did in sc1. In sc1, vultures and tanks could be countered by carriers too, but protoss players don't always go carriers.

As for you Daxten, if you can prove that this opening is weak to a 2 immortal push I'd like to see that proof, but I've played vs it and I've beaten it. I have a strong feeling you've never even tested it and you're just saying things for the sake of saying things. Please don't post without evidence.

I see Tomed has started flaming my thread because it contains replays of players who don't go all in within the first 10 minutes. Perhaps you'd like to prove why a timing push by protoss is viable? Just because you can look at a game and say, "oh boy he's going mech, I can push him with immortals!" doesn't mean it will work out. As a terran if I see a large immortal count and no expansion I'd simply make more marines and bunk up and position my tanks so that immortals have to plow through bunkers (with scvs repairing) to do anything to the tanks. And even then Tanks massively outrange immortals so you'd have quite a time making that sort of attack actually kill the terran. It's no different than a bulldog in sc1. Sure it can work, but it's allin and very easy to counter if spotted/prepared for.
Half man, half bear, half pig.
loft
Profile Joined July 2009
United States344 Posts
March 01 2010 17:20 GMT
#16
Tombed just owned this thread?
0neder
Profile Joined July 2009
United States3733 Posts
March 01 2010 17:34 GMT
#17
Another thing for mech goers to remember is BRING SCVS to the fight or CALL DOWN MULES FOR REPAIR.
Floophead_III
Profile Joined September 2009
United States1832 Posts
March 01 2010 17:41 GMT
#18
Mules can repair? 0.0
Half man, half bear, half pig.
Eplekjekk
Profile Joined March 2008
Norway40 Posts
March 01 2010 18:54 GMT
#19
I watched a couple of your replays and I have to agree with Torned that the level of play is far too low for a rewarding discussion to be based upon. In your 2 fact push your opponent builds 4 gates at the start of the game and only builds a handful of units, before he expands. You could have went with any build and completely crushed him.

You say the level of play is not as important as demonstrating general ideas, but the fact of the matter is that the level of play has a direct bearing on what strategies work and which don't. After watching your replays I have no idea whether mech works or not against a good player; and I assume that most people come to this forum to learn strategies that not only work against noobs. All that you have proved is that you can crush bad players with a mech-only-build. But since you can crush bad players with almost any build, that information isn't worth much.
PredY
Profile Joined September 2009
Czech Republic1731 Posts
March 01 2010 18:56 GMT
#20
i don't think pure mech is really good because there are no mines. against good a protoss that will defend your harass you will simply lose

bio-mech is the way.
http://www.twitch.tv/czelpredy
Floophead_III
Profile Joined September 2009
United States1832 Posts
March 01 2010 19:46 GMT
#21
On March 02 2010 03:56 PredY wrote:
i don't think pure mech is really good because there are no mines. against good a protoss that will defend your harass you will simply lose

bio-mech is the way.


Yes, there are no mines, but you do have the added benefit of ghosts and your "vultures" now do splash. That and zealots take full damage from sieged up tanks, stalkers are much worse than dragoons, and immortals can't be made with the gateway so they're really difficult to mass up. It's a different game, so I don't think you can simply make a generalization like this just because mines are missing.

I do agree that biomech may in fact prove to be viable, or even better. This guide is not about whether biomech strats are good or not. This guide simply talks about mech. It does not say mech is the best option. It simply gives reasons why I believe it is better than pure bio. You can even disagree with the interpretation, but the reasoning is explained quite clearly in the guide. If you feel that my conclusions are wrong, explain why in more than 1 sentence. I'm just trying to get more in depth and thoughtful posts in this thread, as I feel it's turning into way too much bashing and way too little analysis.

As for those who feel the replays don't prove anything, go out and play your own games and post up your own replays (or give them to me to look at) so we can see what happens at "higher level" games. If there are serious flaws with what I say, they will be consistent and apparent.
Half man, half bear, half pig.
Feefee
Profile Joined November 2009
Canada556 Posts
March 01 2010 19:53 GMT
#22
I really want to see terrans sensory tower and bunker alot more across the map. Sensory towers = no chance for a surprise flank, and bunkers are salveagable for 100% minerals. Should make for some nice slowly pushing terran ball IMO^^
CowGoMoo
Profile Joined December 2006
United States428 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-03-01 20:57:18
March 01 2010 20:56 GMT
#23
On March 02 2010 04:53 Feefee wrote:
I really want to see terrans sensory tower and bunker alot more across the map. Sensory towers = no chance for a surprise flank, and bunkers are salveagable for 100% minerals. Should make for some nice slowly pushing terran ball IMO^^

Yah I should seriously need to start using the Sensor tower, its a lazy mans way of scouting haha.

It might be powerful to transition into mass tank mid-game from a bio opening after you have EMP, but I don't think opening as tanks is very viable.

You could try to open Hellion, add some bio, then pump tanks + EMP and just make sure u realize the air vulnerability and can react to/scout protoss air. The bio mid-game would help stop any air transition from ur opponent (lol if u try to use thors for this) and gives u the ability to use bunkers for a powerful defense while reaching a critical mass of tanks. It also helps deal with Stalkers/Immortals the Hellions force ur opponent into early game. Opening with bio might also work, but then I feel like the transition wouldn't be as smooth and it will mostly just be a bio-mech army as opposed to mech.
RPGabe
Profile Joined January 2010
United States192 Posts
March 01 2010 21:02 GMT
#24
Having BOTH players at a low level of skill doesn't necessarily invalidate a strategy, nor does a lack of early game aggression from either side.

It would be helpful to have players at all skill levels competing with this focus to get a better idea of where it works and where it fails. Obviously you wouldn't want to pursue a strategy long-term that doesn't work at a medium or high level of skill, but that's yet to be determined. The best Terran player in Beta right now is rushing Hellions first against zerg on most maps - we have hardly got this game completely figured out in less than 2 weeks.

Additionally, two players at a low skill level could be using the right strategies and just fail to make them really click or shine. Maybe they lack the ability to do everything necessary to make the strategy work - is that a flaw in the strategy or the implementation?

On the other point, you'll often see pro players in Starcraft take 'aggressive' actions in the early game by expanding/teching, effectively forcing their opponent to keep up by doing the same. Terran has always been able to do this by turtling and this is hardly different.

I'm not arguing that heavy mech will work or that floop is qualified to comment on it. I'm saying we're like 10 days into beta - the conversation is still open and everything needs extensive testing.
GGTeMpLaR
Profile Blog Joined June 2009
United States7226 Posts
March 01 2010 21:07 GMT
#25
mixed army works best

unless your opponent isn't mixing his army and you just mass the counter unit
PredY
Profile Joined September 2009
Czech Republic1731 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-03-01 21:19:59
March 01 2010 21:18 GMT
#26
On March 02 2010 06:07 GGTeMpLaR wrote:
mixed army works best

unless your opponent isn't mixing his army and you just mass the counter unit


yeah i think so.

anyway
i think when you go pure mech, the problem is P has really quick observers and sees everything and watchtowers give huge vision boost too. basically you can't sneak any hellions out, only in dropship, which will probably be scouted (starport) by the obs. it's almost impossible to take third early, only island expo imo (not all maps have islands). that means you gotta mass from 2 base with almost no chance to harass or anything - P has complete map control because of no mines. when you move out with tanks+hellions+couple of thors, you can get easily owned by air (void rays) or the P will have enough to beat you. i actually won quite many games going mech, but it was mainly because wrong reaction from protoss (even white-ra massed lots and stalkers = no chance vs mech). but draco beat me with a lot of lots, he burnt the hellions by colossi, used sentries and immortals and mothership. truth is i had late emp though and almost no vikings so.. i still think if P responds right, it's so hard to pull it off
http://www.twitch.tv/czelpredy
roam
Profile Blog Joined February 2010
United States54 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-03-01 21:19:57
March 01 2010 21:19 GMT
#27
I think the new core TvP army is going to be marauder/hellion (and possibly reactor hellion, but lots of P are skipping zeal mid game too).

Tank/ghost are the main support. You'll probably see timings with 3 tanks (one shot stalkers), or emp as the first move out.

Late game, you will actually probably see BCs and thors as support in the same way. Thor to match their colossus count (since they can one shot colossus) and BC against MS/carriers, since BC is pretty much the only way to kill a MS.
RPGabe
Profile Joined January 2010
United States192 Posts
March 01 2010 21:22 GMT
#28
Mixing the army certainly isn't impossible either - going heavy on tanks will leave you gas starved with plenty of minerals to spare.

There are 4 things you can do with a ton of minerals as Terran focusing on mech:

-Build Helions
-Build Turrets
-Expand Again
-Build Marines

Marines aren't awful - you don't really need to think about HP/Armor upgrades if you're mostly throwing them in bunkers or pitting them against Void Rays. They don't benefit much from it in either case.
Floophead_III
Profile Joined September 2009
United States1832 Posts
March 01 2010 21:50 GMT
#29
I do think you have a good case Predy when you bring up that it's hard to take a 3rd, but that's partially a map-based problem. I think it may actually be that it's like the way TvZ Mech works, in that you have to use mech on maps with easy thirds, but more bio oriented play is better suited to maps with difficult to secure thirds.

I think the maps right now are seriously influencing playstyles.
Half man, half bear, half pig.
RPGabe
Profile Joined January 2010
United States192 Posts
March 01 2010 22:25 GMT
#30
Maps have always influenced playstyles. The professional style of Broodwar is largely a result of map design to make it that way because it's entertaining and flashy for spectators to watch giant macro fights.

That said, I think doing a breakdown of each map and important parts/placements would help people use mech (specifically, tanks).

For instance, it's difficult to guard your natural on Desert Oasis with tanks because of the distance between it and your ramp. Fast expanding will be very difficult. However, you CAN offensively setup tanks outside your opponent's base to both seal their ramp AND threaten their mineral line. This basically forces an all-in push to break your contain or they lose.

Grainy map picture below. Imagine tanks and bunkers directly to the Northeast of the Blue starting area, or directly to the Southwest of the Red starting area.

[image loading]


How do you consistently set this up without being broken/overrun in the process? I've done it in a few games but on the whole, I have no idea.
PredY
Profile Joined September 2009
Czech Republic1731 Posts
March 01 2010 22:41 GMT
#31
yeah i agree some maps aren't that good, like the desert oasis. for example on kulas ravine you can get 3base easy so THEORETICALY the pure mech there should be good. on top of that, there are plenty of clifs ideal for dropship play.

i'm gonna try some biomech build though.
http://www.twitch.tv/czelpredy
jamvng
Profile Joined October 2008
Canada244 Posts
March 01 2010 23:00 GMT
#32
agreed.. map design is important... they shud get some of those korean map makers to start making maps ><
Floophead_III
Profile Joined September 2009
United States1832 Posts
March 02 2010 01:29 GMT
#33
I played a few games without ghosts just to see what would happen, and actually I don't feel that it severely impacted my ability to combat his army. The splash damage on a 150+ food mech army is outrageous. Immortals are not so scary at that point. I think ghosts definitely can turn close victories into decisive ones and many losses into victories though. I also noticed that I had enough extra gas most of the game that I could afford ghosts pretty easily. I need to find a really good spot to insert them into my BOs still. Definitely some food for thought for you guys =D
Half man, half bear, half pig.
Treeplant
Profile Blog Joined January 2010
United States214 Posts
March 02 2010 04:28 GMT
#34
I had the pleasure of witnessing Floophead's games live, and I was quite surprised with the results. While I was rooting for him, I was honestly expecting him to get rolled over with a mech fe build. Unseiged tanks are more powerful than I realized. Despite a few micro and macro mistakes, probably due to testing a new build, he was still able to hold off against the toss well. The big push mid to late game very effective as well, only being stopped by carriers. I'm sure as he practices and perfects the BO it's going to be very effective, especially for macro oriented players. Great work Floop, and I'm going to start practicing mech very soon
Floophead_III
Profile Joined September 2009
United States1832 Posts
March 02 2010 05:17 GMT
#35
Goddamn carriers.... ruined me in CSL and are ruining me in SC2 =D
I think I didn't need to overcommit to thors on top of my vikings, lower tank count ruined me later =/

Thank you Seele!
Half man, half bear, half pig.
StorrZerg
Profile Blog Joined February 2008
United States13919 Posts
March 02 2010 05:46 GMT
#36
I hate carriers, they ruin my fun when ever i try to do a mech style play
Hwaseung Oz fan for life. Swing out, always swing out.
Floophead_III
Profile Joined September 2009
United States1832 Posts
March 03 2010 06:47 GMT
#37
Has anybody figured out a way to incorporate battlecruisers into TvP effectively without being killed for trying it?
Half man, half bear, half pig.
Squallcloud
Profile Joined February 2008
France466 Posts
March 03 2010 20:01 GMT
#38
On March 01 2010 19:26 fragamemnon wrote:
Check out the Jump(T) vs. White-Ra(P) on Scrap Station replay over at Orz SC2 1v1 Replays .

Jump does some killer work using mech to expand out and secure bases, and then using Hellion/Tank/Thor and SCVs building turrets to slow push right up the map. He does this against some amazing shuttle play from White-Ra (which is worth watching if you play P, it's very, very good).

I think in this case the map is really mech-friendly due to the high ground that can be used to cover your third and the island expansion.


Did anyone watched this game?

I found it quite enjoyable. I think it kinda prove there's something viable in the pure mech build. I don't know Jump but White-Ra isn't some copper league player.
Firebathero fanboy - It's not that i'm dumb i'm just controlled by a retarded infestor - Day[9]
PredY
Profile Joined September 2009
Czech Republic1731 Posts
March 03 2010 20:14 GMT
#39
I played that game vs white-ra. his mistakes was not building any immortals (or very few of them). lots + stalkers get melted by hellions and tanks.
http://www.twitch.tv/czelpredy
Floophead_III
Profile Joined September 2009
United States1832 Posts
March 03 2010 20:21 GMT
#40
Emp should in theory negate immortals, if you can hit them. I've found that early on immortals aren't too bad, it's only around midgame that they become a real issue because bunkers are no longer effective. I've been losing a few games cause of the difficulties of correctly incorporating factory count + addon type + ghosts. It's not easy, I'll say that much, but it can be quite powerful.
Half man, half bear, half pig.
jamvng
Profile Joined October 2008
Canada244 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-03-18 02:02:07
March 18 2010 02:01 GMT
#41
Just curious Floophead..any new/addition insights on TvP Mech?

Another note I guess it really is map dependent. In maps like Lost Temple, Kulas Ravine or Steppes of War (I think Scrap Station is possible also), Mech is a nice option because of easy expansions. Mainly Macro maps will favour Mech play. But maps like Blistering Sands, Desert Oasis, Bio is better (maybe with mech support).
Floophead_III
Profile Joined September 2009
United States1832 Posts
March 18 2010 02:55 GMT
#42
Mech is fantastic on Scrap Station. First you can open with a hellion drop and if they try to push/counter you it take them so damn long to do it that you can waltz in, kill their probes, and still defend it no problem. It's a great way to keep them contained and defending. On top of that you have a really easy choke to hold with tanks (ledge anyone?) and a fairly easy third because of that. Also you can use banshees pretty effectively. The biggest problem with mech there is that there's not really any room for mid/lategame hellion harassment there, but that's ok, because you don't really need to harass anymore once you have 3 base.

I actually find steppes of war fairly weak for mech because it's so hard to deal with the tiny rush distance, and hellions have no good harass paths. I honestly don't like that map at all cause you basically spawn in your opponent's natural. It's like the bloodbath of SC2. Bio rushes hit harder and faster there. I still mech there, but I think perhaps a 2 rax pressure into mech might be stronger just because you basically have to walk 10 seconds to be in your opponent's base.

I'd love to see some REAL macro maps show up (perhaps with the reset?) Think about how maps like andromeda and fighting spirit play. I'd like to see more of that in sc2. I know Blizzard wants it to be a fast, action-packed game, but I would say that macro maps will spawn a more interesting game strategically, and provide more insight into the balance. Lord knows the original LT in BW was so imbalanced =P
Half man, half bear, half pig.
jamvng
Profile Joined October 2008
Canada244 Posts
March 18 2010 03:34 GMT
#43
On March 18 2010 11:55 Floophead_III wrote:
I'd love to see some REAL macro maps show up (perhaps with the reset?) Think about how maps like andromeda and fighting spirit play. I'd like to see more of that in sc2. I know Blizzard wants it to be a fast, action-packed game, but I would say that macro maps will spawn a more interesting game strategically, and provide more insight into the balance. Lord knows the original LT in BW was so imbalanced =P


Some macro maps would be pretty awesome. Not that the current maps aren't good, in fact the opposite. Blizzard has learnt a lot in regards to map making. But we're just missing some potentially awesome games that could come up in Macro maps. It would encourage different styles of play. And you have to admit, macro maps really made some SC1 maps great to watch.
knyttym
Profile Blog Joined December 2006
United States5797 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-03-18 05:25:28
March 18 2010 05:07 GMT
#44
So right now my biggest concern is how the Terran deals with an immortal rush. I was hoping one of your 1fact FE reps showed it but sadly neither did.

SImply the build is 1gate -> Robo off of no units and build immortal right when robo finishes (no obs). Attack with either 1 or 2 immortals + stalkers.
The build was played several times in the Day[9] daily and through a series of games, was shown to tear mech openings apart. Now this was before the gateway build time was increased so I'm not too sure how valid it is now but I'm assuming the build time difference does not play too huge of a role.
My question is have you faced an immortal rush against your 1fac FE and how did the build fare?

Also I thought that if the protoss could not break your ramp he could camp your natural with 3 or so immortals + a very small amount of zeals or a stalker.
Siege expand was really strong in SC1 because you could hold off a decent amount of dragoons with repair while throwing out 70 damage per shot. However leaving most tanks at top of ramp and using 1 below ramp to scare away units does not work on immortals. No amount of scvs will save you from a 150 damage volley all the while immortals are only taking 10 damage from siege.
So second question is how will you expand against a containing immortal force that attempts to pick off tanks coming down the ramp?


Ok couldn't find a better example but I guess this is ok. Start at 11:40-11:52

Dragoons run outside siege range. Another tank comes down to scare goons away and through decent micro clears the units out. Now imagine if it was SC2 and those were 3 immortals. How will you plant your command center without waiting to build up like 6tanks?
Floophead_III
Profile Joined September 2009
United States1832 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-03-18 06:02:08
March 18 2010 05:44 GMT
#45
I have played vs a hardcore immortal rush multiple times. I think with a 1 fact FE you HAVE to get a bunker. It's not even an option really unless you see them early expo as well (where you can be assured of no early pressure). First thing is you gotta make your bunker attack the immortal to bring its shields down. Then you gotta keep your tanks (I think you should have 2, maybe 3 on a bigger map) out of range of everything at all costs. I often have to pull some scvs to repair or even get in the way and attack. Scvs rape immortal shields ironically, and they get in the way of stalkers/immortals so your tanks can demolish them from safety. Really the important thing is scouting. Usually I'll know it's coming because I scan it.

I will say that I've lost on blistering sands because of the backdoor, so you really gotta be careful on maps with backdoors. I'm not a fan of the whole backdoor into main thing anyways.

I might actually start opening with more than 4 marines since they counter immortals so well. It really depends on the map/what I scout though. Everything in starcraft 2 is, and should be reactionary to an extent. A player who is inflexible is a bad player.

edit: Didn't see your followup question regarding contains. I think your goal would be to put tanks just out of range of the immortals on the ledge/behind your wall. I almost always bunker below my ramp in such a way that it can shield tanks as they move down, so this can't really occur. To kill my tanks they have to bunker dive. To kill my bunker they have to move into range of tanks. Also, unsieged tanks are MUCH better than sieged vs immortals and small forces of stalkers. I prefer to not siege too early and be really really careful with them. If immortals are moving in to attack run the tanks away and let the bunkers get some shots off/block with scvs.

It's legitimately not easy. I would equate it to trying to expo vs a 10/15 in BW.
Half man, half bear, half pig.
knyttym
Profile Blog Joined December 2006
United States5797 Posts
March 18 2010 07:34 GMT
#46
You mind posting a replay of you winning vs an immortal rush? Also when do you get that bunker? I feel that he can get that immortal to your natural before you can establish position.

Rucky
Profile Joined February 2008
United States717 Posts
March 18 2010 07:42 GMT
#47
On March 18 2010 14:44 Floophead_III wrote:
I have played vs a hardcore immortal rush multiple times. I think with a 1 fact FE you HAVE to get a bunker. It's not even an option really unless you see them early expo as well (where you can be assured of no early pressure). First thing is you gotta make your bunker attack the immortal to bring its shields down. Then you gotta keep your tanks (I think you should have 2, maybe 3 on a bigger map) out of range of everything at all costs. I often have to pull some scvs to repair or even get in the way and attack. Scvs rape immortal shields ironically, and they get in the way of stalkers/immortals so your tanks can demolish them from safety. Really the important thing is scouting. Usually I'll know it's coming because I scan it.

I will say that I've lost on blistering sands because of the backdoor, so you really gotta be careful on maps with backdoors. I'm not a fan of the whole backdoor into main thing anyways.

I might actually start opening with more than 4 marines since they counter immortals so well. It really depends on the map/what I scout though. Everything in starcraft 2 is, and should be reactionary to an extent. A player who is inflexible is a bad player.

edit: Didn't see your followup question regarding contains. I think your goal would be to put tanks just out of range of the immortals on the ledge/behind your wall. I almost always bunker below my ramp in such a way that it can shield tanks as they move down, so this can't really occur. To kill my tanks they have to bunker dive. To kill my bunker they have to move into range of tanks. Also, unsieged tanks are MUCH better than sieged vs immortals and small forces of stalkers. I prefer to not siege too early and be really really careful with them. If immortals are moving in to attack run the tanks away and let the bunkers get some shots off/block with scvs.

It's legitimately not easy. I would equate it to trying to expo vs a 10/15 in BW.


wow! that is an eye opener that unseiged tanks work against immortals. unseiged tanks have a cooldown of about 1 compared to 3 of seiged tanks. since it's 10 damage either way, that seems very significant. triple the dps!
Beyond the Game
Floophead_III
Profile Joined September 2009
United States1832 Posts
March 18 2010 08:16 GMT
#48
Well I just played a bunch with Insane and Zelniq and I had my ass handed to me a couple games. I think a few were just stupid mistakes but my problem is not with the immortal rush, but with a midgame push that comes before my expo macro has kicked in. I also discovered that if you see robo you have to make a freaking ring of turrets around your base because phase prism is ridiculous.

Important note: For those who don't know already, you can fly along the edges of every map, so you can be dropped from basically any angle unlike in SC1. It's a serious flaw in map design IMO

I think perhaps it may be required to follow up any FE attempt with a ghost academy, or build it as you're building that CC. Getting my expo up isn't an issue. Not dying after I do is the problem. I have to check the timings and see what's viable. I've noticed that these two players got a lot more stalkers than I'm used to seeing, and even made multiple robos. Ghosts pretty much are a requirement past earlygame, and the earlier you get them the better.

I do think that the immortal production time could be increased, since we're looking at a unit that builds as fast as a gateway unit which is a 4 food unit that completely craps on buildings/armored and has a ton of hp. What we're seeing right now is definitely an issue where you can make as many immortals as they have tanks just because of chrono.

So in summary. Ghost academy has to be part of a BO. Ghosts have to be out not much long after your expo goes down in an FE. And phase prisms are ridiculously strong due to map design.
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kickinhead
Profile Joined December 2008
Switzerland2069 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-03-18 09:05:28
March 18 2010 09:04 GMT
#49
I still don't think Mech is that good of an Option because of various reasons:

- Tanks come out later and aren't as good as in SC1.
- Tanks on cliffs in your base to shoot down incoming attacks aren't as good either, because so many Units don't care about cliffs and just run over them, like Collossi for example. Try to defend with Tanks against Collossi: It doesn't work, but it should, because Tanks are the Backbone of Terran Mech. Also, The Opponent can just attack from another angle so you have to relocate the Tanks just so the opponent can run away and attack elsewhere.
- Mech-Anti-Air comes kinda late and isn't that good as when using Bio.
- Going Mech early is very hard to defend against Warpgate-rushes with extremely fast reinforcement.
- Mech-Units can easily be countered by hard-counter-Units like Immortal VS Tanks, Mutas VS Tanks/Hellions.
- Mech is soooo slow with Thors/Tanks so it's very hard to push out on the Map without getting counterattacked, flanked etc. This allows the opponent to Macro up incredibly fast with no chance for the Terran to recover.
- Against P, you pretty much need very fast EMP.

I'd only use Mech in TvT, because lots of players go for Tanks, which are very hard to deal with when you just have Bio. Also, lot's of Terrans tend to go fast-banshees, against which it's nice to have Vikings and Ravens.

Ah yes; There's one other exception: Hellions work very nice against Z, but most of the time, you'll switch back to Bio after the Z goes for roaches and maybe Mutas.
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jamvng
Profile Joined October 2008
Canada244 Posts
March 18 2010 13:15 GMT
#50
On March 18 2010 18:04 kickinhead wrote:
I still don't think Mech is that good of an Option because of various reasons:

- Tanks come out later and aren't as good as in SC1.


Wait why do tanks come out later? They require the same amount of tech as in SC1.

On March 18 2010 18:04 kickinhead wrote:
- Tanks on cliffs in your base to shoot down incoming attacks aren't as good either, because so many Units don't care about cliffs and just run over them, like Collossi for example. Try to defend with Tanks against Collossi: It doesn't work, but it should, because Tanks are the Backbone of Terran Mech. Also, The Opponent can just attack from another angle so you have to relocate the Tanks just so the opponent can run away and attack elsewhere.


Collosi come out a lot later..u shud have a few tanks by the time he gets one Colossus. (I'm not sure though, I'm just thinking that if immortals come out when the tanks come, Colossus would take even longer since they require an extra building and take longer to build).

On March 18 2010 18:04 kickinhead wrote:
- Mech-Anti-Air comes kinda late and isn't that good as when using Bio.
- Going Mech early is very hard to defend against Warpgate-rushes with extremely fast reinforcement.


You don't have to worry too much about air early mid game. Because if they go straight to air, say Void Rays, a few marines can deal with them. And it will cause their ground army to be weak.

On March 18 2010 18:04 kickinhead wrote:
- Mech-Units can easily be countered by hard-counter-Units like Immortal VS Tanks, Mutas VS Tanks/Hellions.
- Mech is soooo slow with Thors/Tanks so it's very hard to push out on the Map without getting counterattacked, flanked etc. This allows the opponent to Macro up incredibly fast with no chance for the Terran to recover.
- Against P, you pretty much need very fast EMP.
.


Immortals are countered by Marines and EMP.
A mech push was slow too in SC1, but it was powerful when you reach that critical amount of tanks. And there's nothing wrong with getting a fast EMP.
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