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[G] Bisu Build for SC2!

Forum Index > Closed
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1 2 Next All
Floophead_III
Profile Joined September 2009
United States1832 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-02-23 06:22:14
February 23 2010 06:21 GMT
#1
After screwing around with my friends I think I've found out exactly how to make this work. I'm still tweaking the details, and obviously some maps are very difficult/impossible to do this on, but on maps like lost temple it's extremely viable.

This build is pretty much what you'd think it is, but I feel it's actually more effective in the midgame than in sc1. I also feel that it is, at least in the current sc2 metagame, very difficult to pull off.

+ Show Spoiler +
The starting build order is as follows:
9/10 pylon at nat choke (I use a chrono asap so i actually get my pylon at 10)
11 forge
(this is where the build diverges)
vs pool first with no larva saved up:
1 cannon
pylon at main
nexus
gateway
(2nd cannon if you feel unsafe, which I pretty much always do vs sc2 zergs)
vs pool first with larva saved up:
2 cannon
pylon at main
nexus
gateway
vs hatch first:
pylon at main
nexus first
cannon
gateway
*note: I have yet to see 3 hatch before pool, but I assume it is perfectly viable just as it was in sc1. If so, gateway before cannon and try to abuse that first zealot, especially since you can chrono it out really fast =D

**additional note: pylons are required earlier than in sc1 because you both start with more workers and chrono boost allows you to get more faster.

Now from here on out I'm going to assume all builds are equal (obviously not quite true, but for the purposes of this guide it's much easier to treat it all as one BO and not 4 different ones.)

Pylons as needed
Gas x2 at main
Cyber
Gas x2 at nat
@100% cyber - sentry + stargate + twilight council
Add another sentry
@100% stargate - phoenix (chrono)
@100% twilight council - dark shrine + gateway
@200 gas (I had to wait a bit on this) - charge upgrade (chrono as much as you can)
@100% dark shrine 2 dt (chrono if possible)
From then on, add 2 more gateways and pump speedlots
add templar archives for HT + storm
add another 2 gateways and start making HT from them.
All the while you should be harassing with phoenix and rallying more and more.
If they are making lots of roaches/banelings, get a robo and obs before you attempt to move out.

Lastly, +air and +ground weapons are very viable upgrades. I don't have a specific place for them, but I like to get them when I can.

Important note: zergs these days seem to think 2 base mass hydra is a good build. This build will die to that cheese just as you'd expect, except it's much later and much stronger in sc2. Add a fuckload of cannons and just delay until your tech is out. Once dts are out you can cause some nice havok if they don't have overseers already there.

If they make it impossible to kill overseers with phoenix to let dts out, take those phoenix and stop poppin all his lords so he can't make more hydra. WIth antigrav you can even start killing queens/drones too! It's fun! Oh and when i say fuckload of cannons, I mean a fuckload. Sc2 hydra are like twice as strong as sc1 hydra. Hopefully sentries can use force fields to buy even more time.

That is the one thing I've struggled with so far, but I believe any 2 base zerg play will fall to this, so if you just hang on and turtle you'll eventually just win. Enough of that and zergs will start learning they do need to play a macro game =D


I want to try using this more and more and see how well I do. I would love to see some other people try to use this and see how it goes.
Half man, half bear, half pig.
Nightmarjoo
Profile Blog Joined October 2006
United States3360 Posts
February 23 2010 06:28 GMT
#2
lol seems like it's more work than it's worth?
aka Lyra; My favourites: July, Stork, Draco, MistrZZZ, TheStc, LastShadow - www.broodwarmaps.net - for all your mapping needs; check my stream: high masters mech terran: twitch.tv/lyrathegreat
Mr.Pyro
Profile Blog Joined July 2008
Denmark959 Posts
February 23 2010 06:33 GMT
#3
You can't pull off a forge expand against an aggressive zerg nowadays - and on maps like blistering sands they'll just go in the back anyway.

Additionally it's impossible to defend from mutas since archons no longer deal splash damage.
P⊧[1]<a>[2]<a>[3]<a>tt | P ≝ 1.a.2.a.3.a.P
avilo
Profile Blog Joined November 2007
United States4100 Posts
February 23 2010 06:35 GMT
#4
GL getting run over by roaches.
Sup
Skyze
Profile Blog Joined November 2008
Canada2324 Posts
February 23 2010 06:42 GMT
#5
wouldnt it be best to use chrono boost after scouting.. so if you see a fast pool/rush, you can chrono your cannons to warp in.. and if you see hatch before pool, you can chrono your 2nd nexus to finish faster?
Canada Gaming ~~ The-Feared
Floophead_III
Profile Joined September 2009
United States1832 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-02-23 06:46:51
February 23 2010 06:45 GMT
#6
Pyro: Blistering sands is a terrible terrible map for any sort of expansion based play in any matchup, I did put in a clause about how some maps are impossible to do this on, that would be one of them. Maps with destructible back doors are probably doable but extremely difficult. I personally think the destructible back entrances into the main are complete crap in map design. At least when you saw them in SC1 you had to have massive splash damage if you wanted to kill them in a realistic amount of time, or mine with a worker which was easily killed.

Avilo: Roaches suck dick vs cannons completely, so he can't attack. Roaches also don't hit air, so phoenixes will be free to fuck you over all day. In addition you can kill off ANY UNIT YOU WANT with antigravity (save ultralisks =P). If that is not reason enough for you to fall in love with the phoenix then you're a cold-hearted bastard.

Chrono boost doesn't make buildings warp in faster. The timings are the same as in starcraft 1. You won't have an issue getting cannons up in time =D
Half man, half bear, half pig.
Floophead_III
Profile Joined September 2009
United States1832 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-02-23 06:46:17
February 23 2010 06:45 GMT
#7
OOPS HIT QUOTE NOT EDIT IMA PRO....
Half man, half bear, half pig.
No_eL
Profile Joined July 2007
Chile1438 Posts
February 23 2010 06:53 GMT
#8
u need put vods or its not funny at all for the vast majority of us...
Beat after beat i will become stronger.
Floophead_III
Profile Joined September 2009
United States1832 Posts
February 23 2010 06:57 GMT
#9
I am going to setup streaming since a lot of people seem to not believe my builds are effective/viable. I am working on that right now, so expect that to be up and running in a few days tops.
Half man, half bear, half pig.
Wr3k
Profile Blog Joined June 2009
Canada2533 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-02-23 07:00:01
February 23 2010 06:58 GMT
#10
Bisu build doesn't work.

It's called the GGworm. It will GGyou before you have enough units. Every time I see a protoss building cannons, I just nydus into their main right past the cannons and the game ends. You simply cannot defend nydus after spending 800+ expanding.
Chairman Ray
Profile Blog Joined December 2009
United States11903 Posts
February 23 2010 06:59 GMT
#11
I was thinking about doing Bisu build as well, but roaches rape cannons =/
semantics
Profile Blog Joined November 2009
10040 Posts
February 23 2010 07:01 GMT
#12
The maps don't love fe not even for zerg i can rape though this by running lings and drone drilling you all day and muta tech before you get your phoenix out
Plexa
Profile Blog Joined October 2005
Aotearoa39261 Posts
February 23 2010 07:20 GMT
#13
On February 23 2010 15:58 Wr3k wrote:
Bisu build doesn't work.

It's called the GGworm. It will GGyou before you have enough units. Every time I see a protoss building cannons, I just nydus into their main right past the cannons and the game ends. You simply cannot defend nydus after spending 800+ expanding.

This D:

I've tried FE'in as well but I would always get killed by a) roaches (they are really beefy) or b) nydus worms.
Administrator~ Spirit will set you free ~
Floophead_III
Profile Joined September 2009
United States1832 Posts
February 23 2010 07:23 GMT
#14
I'm not sure if you can get a nydus with enough units into my base before I have my tech completed. Phoenix will gladly destroy all your overlords and even if you do get units in, I dont think they can kill dts =D

Roaches are god awful vs cannons. They have no range and do fairly low damage to nonbiologicals. I specifically remember a game where I beat like 20 speedlings and roaches with 3 cannons and 3 zealots just cause I had a good walloff. If you do some stupid 1 hatch roach break I'll just warp 4 more cannons laugh and win.

Unless you do a cheesy fast 1 hatch lair ---> spire there is no way you'll have muta out before my pheonix is (I tried it vs 2 hatch muta and it's out first). And sentries rape mutalisks, I don't have them just to look cute. A couple cannons in each minline will buy enough time easily.
Half man, half bear, half pig.
Ryuu314
Profile Joined October 2009
United States12679 Posts
February 23 2010 07:32 GMT
#15
You talk a good build, but the sooner you get vods and replays of this up the sooner people will start telling you your build sucks.

As it is, there's tons of (potential?) holes in your build and it's up to you to counter that with a nice replay.
Plexa
Profile Blog Joined October 2005
Aotearoa39261 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-02-23 07:33:43
February 23 2010 07:33 GMT
#16
I'm sorry but I completely disagree with what you just wrote. I'm going to have to see a replay before I beleive you.

EDIT: lings do suck against cannons though
Administrator~ Spirit will set you free ~
silencefc
Profile Blog Joined October 2008
United States875 Posts
February 23 2010 07:42 GMT
#17
Tech as in your Phoenix or your DT? Nydus is Lair tech and can definitely get into your base before DT and probably before you get more than 3 Phoenix. Phoenix also kill Overlords very slowly, around 20 attacks.
Slice like a goddamn hammer.
zatic
Profile Blog Joined September 2007
Zurich15365 Posts
February 23 2010 07:45 GMT
#18
I played against a couple of forge first variations ("bisu build" being by far the weakest one btw, Colossus/Templar is a far better choice) and here are a couple of reasons why I don't think they work:

- 1 hatch roach breaks. Roaches are far better against cannons than you make them out to be, and Z can produce ridiculous amounts off 1 hatch when they don't have to worry about any tech from P.
- Z double expand to gold minerals and just pumping drones. Classic counter to FE in BW, except this time your 3rd get's Z twice as much intake.
- Nydus
- Muta

I have personally successfully used roach break and nydus against forge first. You can build up roaches, and even when they cannon up the front you can just nydus drop shortly after in the back. Both times I didn't feel the P could have done anything except build even more cannons which makes the FE pointless.
Please set up your live stream, get an able Zerg and play a series of forge first against them, that would indeed be the easiest way to prove your builds. Make sure to record them.
ModeratorI know Teamliquid is known as a massive building
nodule
Profile Joined February 2008
Canada931 Posts
February 23 2010 07:45 GMT
#19
On February 23 2010 16:23 Floophead_III wrote:
And sentries rape mutalisks, I don't have them just to look cute. A couple cannons in each minline will buy enough time easily.


Looking at the numbers, sentries are a lot more competitive against mutas than I realized. with a shield up, both units take 11 hits to take each other down (ignoring glave splash). of course, it seems unlikely that you have as many sentries than they do mutas, but with some pheonixes and stalkers...
Floophead_III
Profile Joined September 2009
United States1832 Posts
February 23 2010 07:47 GMT
#20
Ok, nydus is out. My pheonixes are killing overlords well before they get a chance to spew creep everywhere. I just tested it. I'm testing every counter you guys post up right now because I'm not some noob who doesn't listen =D

I truly believe that this build is very very viable.
Half man, half bear, half pig.
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