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After screwing around with my friends I think I've found out exactly how to make this work. I'm still tweaking the details, and obviously some maps are very difficult/impossible to do this on, but on maps like lost temple it's extremely viable.
This build is pretty much what you'd think it is, but I feel it's actually more effective in the midgame than in sc1. I also feel that it is, at least in the current sc2 metagame, very difficult to pull off.
+ Show Spoiler +The starting build order is as follows:
9/10 pylon at nat choke (I use a chrono asap so i actually get my pylon at 10)
11 forge
(this is where the build diverges)
vs pool first with no larva saved up:
1 cannon
pylon at main
nexus
gateway
(2nd cannon if you feel unsafe, which I pretty much always do vs sc2 zergs)
vs pool first with larva saved up:
2 cannon
pylon at main
nexus
gateway
vs hatch first:
pylon at main
nexus first
cannon
gateway
*note: I have yet to see 3 hatch before pool, but I assume it is perfectly viable just as it was in sc1. If so, gateway before cannon and try to abuse that first zealot, especially since you can chrono it out really fast =D
**additional note: pylons are required earlier than in sc1 because you both start with more workers and chrono boost allows you to get more faster.
Now from here on out I'm going to assume all builds are equal (obviously not quite true, but for the purposes of this guide it's much easier to treat it all as one BO and not 4 different ones.)
Pylons as needed
Gas x2 at main
Cyber
Gas x2 at nat
@100% cyber - sentry + stargate + twilight council
Add another sentry
@100% stargate - phoenix (chrono)
@100% twilight council - dark shrine + gateway
@200 gas (I had to wait a bit on this) - charge upgrade (chrono as much as you can)
@100% dark shrine 2 dt (chrono if possible)
From then on, add 2 more gateways and pump speedlots
add templar archives for HT + storm
add another 2 gateways and start making HT from them.
All the while you should be harassing with phoenix and rallying more and more.
If they are making lots of roaches/banelings, get a robo and obs before you attempt to move out.
Lastly, +air and +ground weapons are very viable upgrades. I don't have a specific place for them, but I like to get them when I can.
Important note: zergs these days seem to think 2 base mass hydra is a good build. This build will die to that cheese just as you'd expect, except it's much later and much stronger in sc2. Add a fuckload of cannons and just delay until your tech is out. Once dts are out you can cause some nice havok if they don't have overseers already there.
If they make it impossible to kill overseers with phoenix to let dts out, take those phoenix and stop poppin all his lords so he can't make more hydra. WIth antigrav you can even start killing queens/drones too! It's fun! Oh and when i say fuckload of cannons, I mean a fuckload. Sc2 hydra are like twice as strong as sc1 hydra. Hopefully sentries can use force fields to buy even more time.
That is the one thing I've struggled with so far, but I believe any 2 base zerg play will fall to this, so if you just hang on and turtle you'll eventually just win. Enough of that and zergs will start learning they do need to play a macro game =D
I want to try using this more and more and see how well I do. I would love to see some other people try to use this and see how it goes.
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lol seems like it's more work than it's worth?
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You can't pull off a forge expand against an aggressive zerg nowadays - and on maps like blistering sands they'll just go in the back anyway.
Additionally it's impossible to defend from mutas since archons no longer deal splash damage.
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GL getting run over by roaches.
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wouldnt it be best to use chrono boost after scouting.. so if you see a fast pool/rush, you can chrono your cannons to warp in.. and if you see hatch before pool, you can chrono your 2nd nexus to finish faster?
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Pyro: Blistering sands is a terrible terrible map for any sort of expansion based play in any matchup, I did put in a clause about how some maps are impossible to do this on, that would be one of them. Maps with destructible back doors are probably doable but extremely difficult. I personally think the destructible back entrances into the main are complete crap in map design. At least when you saw them in SC1 you had to have massive splash damage if you wanted to kill them in a realistic amount of time, or mine with a worker which was easily killed.
Avilo: Roaches suck dick vs cannons completely, so he can't attack. Roaches also don't hit air, so phoenixes will be free to fuck you over all day. In addition you can kill off ANY UNIT YOU WANT with antigravity (save ultralisks =P). If that is not reason enough for you to fall in love with the phoenix then you're a cold-hearted bastard.
Chrono boost doesn't make buildings warp in faster. The timings are the same as in starcraft 1. You won't have an issue getting cannons up in time =D
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OOPS HIT QUOTE NOT EDIT IMA PRO....
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u need put vods or its not funny at all for the vast majority of us...
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I am going to setup streaming since a lot of people seem to not believe my builds are effective/viable. I am working on that right now, so expect that to be up and running in a few days tops.
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Bisu build doesn't work.
It's called the GGworm. It will GGyou before you have enough units. Every time I see a protoss building cannons, I just nydus into their main right past the cannons and the game ends. You simply cannot defend nydus after spending 800+ expanding.
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I was thinking about doing Bisu build as well, but roaches rape cannons =/
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The maps don't love fe not even for zerg i can rape though this by running lings and drone drilling you all day and muta tech before you get your phoenix out
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
On February 23 2010 15:58 Wr3k wrote:
Bisu build doesn't work.
It's called the GGworm. It will GGyou before you have enough units. Every time I see a protoss building cannons, I just nydus into their main right past the cannons and the game ends. You simply cannot defend nydus after spending 800+ expanding.
This D:
I've tried FE'in as well but I would always get killed by a) roaches (they are really beefy) or b) nydus worms.
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I'm not sure if you can get a nydus with enough units into my base before I have my tech completed. Phoenix will gladly destroy all your overlords and even if you do get units in, I dont think they can kill dts =D
Roaches are god awful vs cannons. They have no range and do fairly low damage to nonbiologicals. I specifically remember a game where I beat like 20 speedlings and roaches with 3 cannons and 3 zealots just cause I had a good walloff. If you do some stupid 1 hatch roach break I'll just warp 4 more cannons laugh and win.
Unless you do a cheesy fast 1 hatch lair ---> spire there is no way you'll have muta out before my pheonix is (I tried it vs 2 hatch muta and it's out first). And sentries rape mutalisks, I don't have them just to look cute. A couple cannons in each minline will buy enough time easily.
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You talk a good build, but the sooner you get vods and replays of this up the sooner people will start telling you your build sucks.
As it is, there's tons of (potential?) holes in your build and it's up to you to counter that with a nice replay.
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
I'm sorry but I completely disagree with what you just wrote. I'm going to have to see a replay before I beleive you.
EDIT: lings do suck against cannons though
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Tech as in your Phoenix or your DT? Nydus is Lair tech and can definitely get into your base before DT and probably before you get more than 3 Phoenix. Phoenix also kill Overlords very slowly, around 20 attacks.
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Zurich15346 Posts
I played against a couple of forge first variations ("bisu build" being by far the weakest one btw, Colossus/Templar is a far better choice) and here are a couple of reasons why I don't think they work:
- 1 hatch roach breaks. Roaches are far better against cannons than you make them out to be, and Z can produce ridiculous amounts off 1 hatch when they don't have to worry about any tech from P.
- Z double expand to gold minerals and just pumping drones. Classic counter to FE in BW, except this time your 3rd get's Z twice as much intake.
- Nydus
- Muta
I have personally successfully used roach break and nydus against forge first. You can build up roaches, and even when they cannon up the front you can just nydus drop shortly after in the back. Both times I didn't feel the P could have done anything except build even more cannons which makes the FE pointless.
Please set up your live stream, get an able Zerg and play a series of forge first against them, that would indeed be the easiest way to prove your builds. Make sure to record them.
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On February 23 2010 16:23 Floophead_III wrote:
And sentries rape mutalisks, I don't have them just to look cute. A couple cannons in each minline will buy enough time easily.
Looking at the numbers, sentries are a lot more competitive against mutas than I realized. with a shield up, both units take 11 hits to take each other down (ignoring glave splash). of course, it seems unlikely that you have as many sentries than they do mutas, but with some pheonixes and stalkers...
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Ok, nydus is out. My pheonixes are killing overlords well before they get a chance to spew creep everywhere. I just tested it. I'm testing every counter you guys post up right now because I'm not some noob who doesn't listen =D
I truly believe that this build is very very viable.
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
You can't just say "nydus is out" without providing a replay first
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I had to come out of lurking for this.
This seems to be the second thread where you claim a build has no holes in it for a certain matchup. Then when you say you'll prove it all we get is "I'm testing it right now you guys, come on believe me." Before anyone will ever believe you, you need to post a series of replays showing you holding off everything that has been said in this thread. Only then will you really start getting some real attention to these flawless builds you keep making.
I didn't mean to come off sounding rude, so i'm sorry if I did.
EDIT: after rereading your previous post you said you were using your air units to kill the ovies spewing creep. Sorry to burst your bubble but worms don't need creep as far as i know. So either your lieing to get attention or i'm really misinformed. If it's the latter please forgive me.
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On February 23 2010 16:58 Twilight Templar wrote:
I had to come out of lurking for this.
This seems to be the second thread where you claim a build has no holes in it for a certain matchup. Then when you say you'll prove it all we get is "I'm testing it right now you guys, come on believe me." Before anyone will ever believe you, you need to post a series of replays showing you holding off everything that has been said in this thread. Only then will you really start getting some real attention to these flawless builds you keep making.
I didn't mean to come off sounding rude, so i'm sorry if I did.
EDIT: after rereading your previous post you said you were using your air units to kill the ovies spewing creep. Sorry to burst your bubble but worms don't need creep as far as i know. So either your lieing to get attention or i'm really misinformed. If it's the latter please forgive me.
He didn't said it has no holes he said that it's just a viable build .... you are misinformed i'm pretty sure it needs creep from overlords .
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I'm fairly certain that unless they changed the build extremely recently, nydus worms do not require creep.
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On February 23 2010 17:26 raga4ka wrote:Show nested quote +On February 23 2010 16:58 Twilight Templar wrote:
I had to come out of lurking for this.
This seems to be the second thread where you claim a build has no holes in it for a certain matchup. Then when you say you'll prove it all we get is "I'm testing it right now you guys, come on believe me." Before anyone will ever believe you, you need to post a series of replays showing you holding off everything that has been said in this thread. Only then will you really start getting some real attention to these flawless builds you keep making.
I didn't mean to come off sounding rude, so i'm sorry if I did.
EDIT: after rereading your previous post you said you were using your air units to kill the ovies spewing creep. Sorry to burst your bubble but worms don't need creep as far as i know. So either your lieing to get attention or i'm really misinformed. If it's the latter please forgive me. He didn't said it has no holes he said that it's just a viable build .... you are misinformed i'm pretty sure it needs creep from overlords .
i was almost positive that it doesn't require creep, my mistake i suppose. 
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I just discovered the imbaness that is 1 hatch roach LOL. I told my friend phil who I'm testing with to be as cheesy aggressive as he wants, and he waltzes into my 1 cannon with 11 roaches and I cried.
BUT, that build is so ridiculously allin I can't even begin to describe the level of allinness of the build. Therefore, After gateway I just jumped straight to mass cannons/multiple pylons at the front. I probably overdid it a little bit on cannons and needed more pylons cause I escaped with a 10 hp pylon or something, being the only thing powering my cannons 0.0
However after his attack, I had 44 probes, he had 17 drones and 1 hatch without lair tech. It's completely defendable it just doesn't hit in a timing window any sc1 player is used to. The important thing is to cut probes about the point your gateway warps in and really start pumping the cannons. Throw up a gas and cyber when you feel you got like 6 cannons or so. Another thing is to make sure you have a really solid simcity so the roaches can't just waltz by. This is standard sc1 stuff though and any skilled protoss knows it's the key to preventing losses to cheese with an FE.
Result: this build can defend the allin bullshit that is 1 hatch roach rush if you know it's coming (and it is impossible not to....)
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It doesn't require creep. I used it today. I know for certain fact that Nydus Canal exits do not require creep. All a Zerg player has to do is get something like a 3x3 sized field of vision inside your main to fit a Nydus exit in; suicide an OL or two.
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I was not aware they recently changed the nydus mechanic. I will do more testing. It is quite possible that the change makes FE extremely difficult, maybe impossible. It is also possible that it is completely defendable.
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IMO you dont get to use chrono enough when u FE like this to make it worth while. U basically cut a ton of probes for ur second nexus, while Zerg can do just about anything he wants and be ahead.
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That makes no sense at all. There is no probe cutting in this build. Chrono is used on the nexuses themselves to pump out an ungodly amount of probes. I actually have so many probes by the time I'd be getting my core I'm already so far ahead of a 1 base zerg I never have to make another probe. Please don't post things when you have no clue what you are talking about.
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On February 23 2010 17:34 Twilight Templar wrote:Show nested quote +On February 23 2010 17:26 raga4ka wrote:On February 23 2010 16:58 Twilight Templar wrote:
I had to come out of lurking for this.
This seems to be the second thread where you claim a build has no holes in it for a certain matchup. Then when you say you'll prove it all we get is "I'm testing it right now you guys, come on believe me." Before anyone will ever believe you, you need to post a series of replays showing you holding off everything that has been said in this thread. Only then will you really start getting some real attention to these flawless builds you keep making.
I didn't mean to come off sounding rude, so i'm sorry if I did.
EDIT: after rereading your previous post you said you were using your air units to kill the ovies spewing creep. Sorry to burst your bubble but worms don't need creep as far as i know. So either your lieing to get attention or i'm really misinformed. If it's the latter please forgive me. He didn't said it has no holes he said that it's just a viable build .... you are misinformed i'm pretty sure it needs creep from overlords . i was almost positive that it doesn't require creep, my mistake i suppose.
I don't know either i just saw a couple of guys on stream using the overlord generate creep and after that the nudis worm  they could just be bad , but it made sence to me that a nudis worm needs creep to build ...
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17 Drones? When I go for a Roach rush, I have more than 17 drones before I make my first Roach.
I vsed KiWiKaKi and he did a FE with cannons build. I didn't do any early aggression. I just sat on two bases and made a ton of Drones while going to lair. At lair I went muta ling and just rushed his expo, winning the game very easily.
What league and ELO are you?
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
Nydus 100% does not need creep to build - it even spawns its own creep >.<
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On February 23 2010 17:26 raga4ka wrote:Show nested quote +On February 23 2010 16:58 Twilight Templar wrote:
I had to come out of lurking for this.
This seems to be the second thread where you claim a build has no holes in it for a certain matchup. Then when you say you'll prove it all we get is "I'm testing it right now you guys, come on believe me." Before anyone will ever believe you, you need to post a series of replays showing you holding off everything that has been said in this thread. Only then will you really start getting some real attention to these flawless builds you keep making.
I didn't mean to come off sounding rude, so i'm sorry if I did.
EDIT: after rereading your previous post you said you were using your air units to kill the ovies spewing creep. Sorry to burst your bubble but worms don't need creep as far as i know. So either your lieing to get attention or i'm really misinformed. If it's the latter please forgive me. He didn't said it has no holes he said that it's just a viable build .... you are misinformed i'm pretty sure it needs creep from overlords .
On February 23 2010 18:02 raga4ka wrote:Show nested quote +On February 23 2010 17:34 Twilight Templar wrote:On February 23 2010 17:26 raga4ka wrote:On February 23 2010 16:58 Twilight Templar wrote:
I had to come out of lurking for this.
This seems to be the second thread where you claim a build has no holes in it for a certain matchup. Then when you say you'll prove it all we get is "I'm testing it right now you guys, come on believe me." Before anyone will ever believe you, you need to post a series of replays showing you holding off everything that has been said in this thread. Only then will you really start getting some real attention to these flawless builds you keep making.
I didn't mean to come off sounding rude, so i'm sorry if I did.
EDIT: after rereading your previous post you said you were using your air units to kill the ovies spewing creep. Sorry to burst your bubble but worms don't need creep as far as i know. So either your lieing to get attention or i'm really misinformed. If it's the latter please forgive me. He didn't said it has no holes he said that it's just a viable build .... you are misinformed i'm pretty sure it needs creep from overlords . i was almost positive that it doesn't require creep, my mistake i suppose. I don't know either i just saw a couple of guys on stream using the overlord generate creep and after that the nudis worm they could just be bad , but it made sence to me that a nudis worm needs creep to build ...
Argh, if you guys aren't certain of facts please don't assert with such authority that you're correct.
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Yeah I have played vs him while h does this build and it just plain doesn't work. I am sure its possible to pull off a win occassionally but anyone who tries this dies to early aggression. The modern F/E you know in sc 1 just doesn't work as well in sc 2. It is too easy to see the expo and say okay I am going roach and ending this game now.
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Just checked, nydus worm does NOT require creep, which personally I think is quite imbalanced, but we'll put that bias aside for now.
Searingshadow, I asked him to go for the FASTEST and CHEEZIEST roach rush possible. The later the rush is the even easier it is to stop. I am curious as to what build you are actually doing, because it sounds like a 2 hatch roach build, which is very different and will hit much later.
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On February 23 2010 18:00 Floophead_III wrote:
That makes no sense at all. There is no probe cutting in this build. Chrono is used on the nexuses themselves to pump out an ungodly amount of probes. I actually have so many probes by the time I'd be getting my core I'm already so far ahead of a 1 base zerg I never have to make another probe. Please don't post things when you have no clue what you are talking about.
And do please post some replays with you winning with this build against decent zerg players or your guide is pointless ....
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Zerg player only needs vision and he will be able to build nydus canals all over the place. Some of the more popular nydus all-ins that has worked very well:
- to sneak in a early lone zergling into the opponents base and let it sit there until you are ready.
- make 1 single muta and fly over the opponents base.
- Use overlords since they have long visual range.
- Make a changeling and walk past your opponents army into their base.
- Make roach with Burrow and simply walk under your opponents army and into his base.
These are the ones I've actually seen during games, could be more ways though.
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
PM me when you have replays to upload, until then im closing this thread.
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EPT
