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On February 21 2010 20:20 drivec wrote:
does this means at a certain point u would gain more from long distance mining with your extra workers then u would if u just keep them mining at your base(even if it wasnt alot more its still more then keeping them at your base)
Slightly off topic, sry:
Bisu vs Stork. I think it was Incruit OSL Quater finals on Chupung Ryeong.
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As for mining. I just did a test. On 8 mineral patches total, my income when viewed in the replay fluctuated from 600-700 with 16 workers. I introduced an additional 4 workers, bringing the total to 20 workers and the income jumped to 700-800 range. After introducing an ADDITIONAL 4 workers, bringing the total to 24, the mineral range stayed the same. So it seems the cap is approx 20 workers on 8 mineral patches; or approximately 2.5:1 worker to mineral patch ratio.
I would be interested to see if other people get the same results. The best method to test is just to play an easy computer, and let workers mine for 3-5 minutes at each worker count level (16/20/24).
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Someone should test the following: (give me a key and I'll do it myself)
24 workers in main
compared to
16 workers in main, 8 long distance mining from natural
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It's really no different than SC1... the best test to do is to time it for clearing the mins at 8, 16, 24, and 32 workers because the longer time interval will make for less error. If you do this you'll see that 24 is superior to 16 even in SC2.
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All in ling rush is really really powerful if you add another hatchery and start spamming zerglings out of those two with your spawn larva - it can only be compared with producing mass zerglings out of 3-4 maybe even 5 hatcheries in BW.
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TY for this thread and contributors. I've been wondering about both gas and minerals (max workers) and I think this thread pretty much answered them both. In some early games I had some friendly players tell me I had way too many probes. He was definitely right 
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On February 21 2010 12:10 nukular wrote:Show nested quote +On February 21 2010 10:44 floor exercise wrote:
Since you can select so many units you can easily tell where you are at with worker count.
3 full rows in the selection box = 24 workers. usually plus two, which are currently mining gas. or are the workers in the geyser selected as well?
It's +4, since there's 2 geysers per base, the 2 workers inside the refineries are not selected.
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Here are the results of the some comprehensive tests I did for all three races using combinations of workers. I tested workers @ 8,16,24 (did 32 for protoss, had a negative effect so I didn't bother using it again). Shown below is Minerals Mined in 1 minute, Minerals Mined per Second, Minerals Mined per Worker per Second, Time to Recouperate the cost of the worker (from the time it finishes) and 'Time til Dry' is the time it would take to drain the mineral source from full to zero at that rate -- I think this is an often overlooked factor.
+ Show Spoiler +
Probes Minerals in 1min Minerals per second Minerals per Probe per Second Recoup Time (s) Time til Dry (min)
8 480 8 1 50 25
16 765 12.75 0.796875 62.74509804 15.68627451
24 1155 19.25 0.802083333 62.33766234 10.38961039
32 1140 19 0.59375 N/A
SCVs Minerals in 1min Minerals per second Minerals per SCV per Second Recoup Time (s) Time til Dry (min)
8 480 8 1 50 25
16 855 14.25 0.890625 56.14035088 14.03508772
24 1125 18.75 0.78125 64 10.66666667
Drones Minerals in 1min Minerals per second Minerals per Drone per Second Recoup Time (s) Time til Dry (min)
8 470 7.833333333 0.979166667 51.06382979 25.53191489
16 940 15.66666667 0.979166667 51.06382979 12.76595745
24 1120 18.66666667 0.777777778 64.28571429 10.71428571
Avg
Workers Minerals in 1min Minerals per second Minerals per Drone per Second Recoup Time (s) Time til Dry (min)
8 476.66\ 7.944 0.99 50.35 25.17
16 853.33 14.22 0.88 56.649 14.16
24 1133.33 18.88 0.78 63.54 10.59
Simple conclusions -- all races mine the same (and all workers cost the same gold and time to build).
Not-so-simple conclusions -- 20 workers is probably the best for your starting base as it provides a good balance between speed mining vs slow & steady, but also provides backup workers in case of loss or need to scout/expo/whatever.
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Sorry, first time posting on TL.net
The chart isn't super easy to read (did it in excel), but the conclusion is this, averaged over three trials.
Workers || Minerals in 1min || Minerals per second || Minerals per Drone per Second || Recoup Time (s) || Time til Dry (min)
8----476.66-----7.94-----0.99----50.35------25.12
16--853.33-----14.22----0.89----56.65------14.16
24--1133.33----18.89----0.79----63.54------10.59
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On February 25 2010 05:57 Gescom wrote:
Sorry, first time posting on TL.net
The chart isn't super easy to read (did it in excel), but the conclusion is this, averaged over three trials.
Workers || Minerals in 1min || Minerals per second || Minerals per Drone per Second || Recoup Time (s) || Time til Dry (min)
8----476.66-----7.94-----0.99----50.35------25.12
16--853.33-----14.22----0.89----56.65------14.16
24--1133.33----18.89----0.79----63.54------10.59
you should have gone higher than 24
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3 workers on gas is still the norm tho right
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3 on gas gives full saturation. 2 gives about 80% of the capacity, which can be useful at times.
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Going higher than 24 does absolutely NOTHING on an 8 patch base. 3 per patch is 100% saturation. The only variation you'll see is natural error (You can't perfectly time anything).
I would suspect that 4 workers on gas is full, since 3 workers does sometimes leave a small time window in which you aren't mining full time (due to positioning).
There are some maps that have a 2nd gas that is farther way, so you'll definitely need 4 for those.
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On February 25 2010 06:59 commanderchobo wrote:
3 workers on gas is still the norm tho right
Having more then three causes the excessive workers to have to wait in order to start gathering. So yes, it is still three.
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That's not 100% saturation, though. 100% saturation is getting ALL possible mining. With 3 workers mining gas, there's still a small window of time the gas is not being mined from; with 4, the worker already waiting there will fill in that time slot.
Remember, saturation doesn't necessarily mean efficiency. It's probably most efficient to get 2 workers per mineral and 3 per gas. However, you still aren't getting the most out of the minerals/gas.
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I tested 32, open the spoiler. Had 0 benefit.
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On February 25 2010 07:31 Zeke50100 wrote:
That's not 100% saturation, though. 100% saturation is getting ALL possible mining. With 3 workers mining gas, there's still a small window of time the gas is not being mined from; with 4, the worker already waiting there will fill in that time slot.
Remember, saturation doesn't necessarily mean efficiency. It's probably most efficient to get 2 workers per mineral and 3 per gas. However, you still aren't getting the most out of the minerals/gas.
No, actually. If you watch a geyser with 3 probes on it, they do "bump" outside the assimilator and need to wait to get in. Thus, if you add another one... they'll both wind up waiting, and you don't gain anything.
The first day or two of beta I did some testing on this by ridiculously over-saturating minerals and gas, and then seeing how well you did at lower levels. Short version of the conclusions:
- A fully saturated gas geyser produces just under 2 gas a second - my best estimate is 116 gas per minute.
- 3 probes on a gas gives this amount.
- 2 probes on a gas gives about 75% as much - it may depend on the exact configuration, but the geyser I tested returned 88 gas per minute with two workers on it.
- A fully saturated mineral patch produces about 105 minerals per minute.
- 2 workers can mine at full capacity on each patch; doing so usually produces "about" 80-85 minerals per minute. However, there are "good patches" and "bad patches" which produced as much as 95 or as little as 75 minerals per minute with two miners
So, as a rule of thumb: 3 probes is full saturation on either gas or minerals; 2 probes is about 75-80% capacity. What I didn't test is how well mining saturation scales in the 2 to 3 probe per patch range - I think that's going to work out to be somewhat subject to one's exact mineral configuration.
Also interesting about this is the fact that a mineral patch is 1500 minerals, while a gas geyser is 2500 gas; however, gas only mines about 10% faster. Hence, it takes almost 50% longer to mine out a gas geyser than it does a mineral patch, meaning that as the game goes on, you wind up with a fair number of bases that are "gas-only" for at least some period of time.
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Actually, the other reason for the early worker-spam is so you aren't creating workers *later* as you expand (especially in 1v1 or 2v2 on decently-sized maps with multiple fields/geysers). Because all the workers are already there, you can concentrate on structure building (and upgrades) as opposed to ramping up the economy. (The idle worker actually costs more later than earlier; also, excess workers can be used for repairs, in addition to tech-up/tier-up.)
With Zergling opposition, the tactical retreat can be used (like in original SC or BW), by drawing them towards Bunkered Marines/Firebats (especially if you also have Missile Turrets) or Photon Cannon, especially when mated up with Zealots and/or Dragoons. In short, *invite* the chase, then have them basically walk into a trap.
The default stance for Zerglings (same applies to Zealots and Marines) *is* to chase down opposing units (and a smart opponent will take advantage); instead, change the default stance (or a specific group stance) to Sentry/Guard. That also enables you to have an actual reserve (in case your attempt at a rush gets stonewalled).
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@Steve496: It might be different for some maps, because I definitely remember seeing at least two maps where workers will be slightly behind.
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On February 21 2010 08:18 Monokeros wrote:
I still try to use f buttons from time to time. Its a shame they were taken out.
+ infinity. F buttons are my favorite part of starcraft, bar nothing.
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EPT
