EPTOn June 02 2021 07:53 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:
I'm a bit confused, given you have more workers at the beginning, doesn't it mean that sending 1 more worker hurts less? In WoL and HotS with 4p maps, it was still a thing to double worker scout. Surely sending 2 workers out when you only had ~15 at the time, is more harmful compared to 2 when you have maybe ~20 now when you want to scout.
While I can see how the increased econ start does make rushes/cheeses more important to scout very early on, since you have less time to prepare for them, I think the variety that 3p and 4p maps give is very beneficial to the game and spectating experience, even if progamers personally don't feel comfortable playing on them.
And I think that with good map design, and use of new features like accel/de-accel zones to have greater control over how fast your scouts/rushes are, it's possible to mitigate the strength of early rushes while still reaping the benefits of having a 3-4p map (which allow for a more spread out, longer macro game, which are much more rare to see in LotV lately than peak WoL with maps like Tal'Darim and Whirlwind as ironic as that is).
For players who are much more skilled and want to avoid coinflippy games on 3-4p maps, I don't see the issue with them picking safe builds, even if it means it is less greedy and the lesser opponent might get away with a really greedy build. Or outright banning it for their match if it is Bo3 or Bo5. With good map design and large enough maps, the strength of early and mid game death pushes can be kept weaker, and help the game draw out longer with more chances for the player to comeback or catch up once they survive past midgame.
I think 3p-4p maps still have potential and I thinks Nautilus is proving to be a very good map so far, so I'm excited to see more. I guess I'm lucky, I'm glad ESL is exploring 3p-4p more with TLMC15. I didn't know ATTx was making maps for GSL either, good job and thanks for your effort ATTx!!
(Another reason I like 3p-4p maps, other than them tending to be overall bigger, is because the other mains end up being potential expo locations with small ramps and cliffs protecting them, something that is very common in BW but some reason basically nonexistant in SC2 maps even though static defense and even positional units like Lurkers are already weaker. I think having far off expos which normally are harder to reinforce, have things like small chokes to help compensate, would be interesting as it gives more choices for expos and makes the map more dynamic. The only map of recent I can think of that had interesting expo options and many expo paths, and far away expos with relatively small chokes, was Golden Wall. Obviously it's very hard to make as unique and solid of a map as that though.)
So far 2000 Atmosphere is proving to be a great map that provides lots of spread out macro games that don't end in just 1 push in early-mid game, I'm fine if there are more 2p maps like that, and maybe only 1 3-4p per season.
I'm a bit confused, given you have more workers at the beginning, doesn't it mean that sending 1 more worker hurts less? In WoL and HotS with 4p maps, it was still a thing to double worker scout. Surely sending 2 workers out when you only had ~15 at the time, is more harmful compared to 2 when you have maybe ~20 now when you want to scout.
While I can see how the increased econ start does make rushes/cheeses more important to scout very early on, since you have less time to prepare for them, I think the variety that 3p and 4p maps give is very beneficial to the game and spectating experience, even if progamers personally don't feel comfortable playing on them.
And I think that with good map design, and use of new features like accel/de-accel zones to have greater control over how fast your scouts/rushes are, it's possible to mitigate the strength of early rushes while still reaping the benefits of having a 3-4p map (which allow for a more spread out, longer macro game, which are much more rare to see in LotV lately than peak WoL with maps like Tal'Darim and Whirlwind as ironic as that is).
For players who are much more skilled and want to avoid coinflippy games on 3-4p maps, I don't see the issue with them picking safe builds, even if it means it is less greedy and the lesser opponent might get away with a really greedy build. Or outright banning it for their match if it is Bo3 or Bo5. With good map design and large enough maps, the strength of early and mid game death pushes can be kept weaker, and help the game draw out longer with more chances for the player to comeback or catch up once they survive past midgame.
I think 3p-4p maps still have potential and I thinks Nautilus is proving to be a very good map so far, so I'm excited to see more. I guess I'm lucky, I'm glad ESL is exploring 3p-4p more with TLMC15. I didn't know ATTx was making maps for GSL either, good job and thanks for your effort ATTx!!
(Another reason I like 3p-4p maps, other than them tending to be overall bigger, is because the other mains end up being potential expo locations with small ramps and cliffs protecting them, something that is very common in BW but some reason basically nonexistant in SC2 maps even though static defense and even positional units like Lurkers are already weaker. I think having far off expos which normally are harder to reinforce, have things like small chokes to help compensate, would be interesting as it gives more choices for expos and makes the map more dynamic. The only map of recent I can think of that had interesting expo options and many expo paths, and far away expos with relatively small chokes, was Golden Wall. Obviously it's very hard to make as unique and solid of a map as that though.)
So far 2000 Atmosphere is proving to be a great map that provides lots of spread out macro games that don't end in just 1 push in early-mid game, I'm fine if there are more 2p maps like that, and maybe only 1 3-4p per season.
It is somewhat unintuitive, but in practice the compressed early game makes double scouting more punishing. In HotS/WoL a six pool is a very committed cheese from Zerg, and Protoss can afford to pull say 8 workers away from mining to defend until a zealot pops out. If Protoss doesn't lose too much they're ahead.
In LotV a 12-pool is (on maps with a short enough rush distance) much less committed. If the Protoss pulls too many workers to defend they can end up behind even if they take no damage just because of the lost mining time. Which is why pulling 4 workers is much more typical nowadays. Double scouting (and you'd have to double scout quite early given the lings pop out at ~1:20) would make the defense against 12 pools much harder since you've already lost so much mining time so your margin of error is much smaller.
That being said I personally am somewhat ambivalent to multi-spawn maps (neither the biggest fan nor detractor) and don't mind ESL trying to bring them back--I think they could still have a place in the game despite these scouting issues. The variety is nice and there are ways (Shakuras Plateau layouts, 2-in-1 maps) to mitigate the scouting issues. However most pros do seem to feel much more strongly that traditional 4p maps shouldn't be a thing.
