• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 17:57
CEST 23:57
KST 06:57
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
[ASL22] Ro8 Preview: In A Tizzy2[ASL22] Ro16 Preview: Holy Diver5[ASL22] Ro16 Preview: Rough Waters10[ASL22] Ro24 Preview: Siren's Call8[ASL22] Ro24 Preview: Summer's End9
Community News
BSL Season 234Weekly Cups (Sep 7-12): SHIN, ByuN, MaxPax double down1StarCraft open world shooter announced at BlizzCon101Weekly Cups (Aug 30-Sep 7): herO thrives amid growing schism10Official StarCraft website teases new content ahead of BlizzCon?179
StarCraft 2
General
StarCraft open world shooter announced at BlizzCon Balance hotfix patch 5.0.16b (July 16) SC4ALL II: StarCraft 2 Player Announcement 8/8 The Death of Cheese: From a Professional Cheeser Yamato Cup Series
Tourneys
2026 GSTL Announcement Sparkling Tuna Cup - Weekly Open Tournament RSL Revival: Season 6 - Qualifiers and Main Event RSL goes to London! 2026 Offline Finals Nov 21-22 SC2 AI Tournament 2026 Fall
Strategy
[H] ZvP Mid-Late Game: Stalkers Collossi HT
Custom Maps
Nexus Wars 2021 GUIDE [M] (2) Industrial Park
External Content
Mutation # 544 Double Trouble The PondCast: SC2 News & Results Mutation # 543 Enhanced Defenses Mutation # 542 The Ascended
Brood War
General
BSL Season 23 Bot on ladder an AI researcher's take on the ladder bot BGH Auto Balance -> http://bghmmr.eu/ [ASL22] Ro8 Preview: In A Tizzy
Tourneys
[BSL23] SM: Ret vs TerrOr -> DragOn vs StRyKeR [Megathread] Daily Proleagues [ASL22] Ro16 Group D [ASL22] Ro16 Group B
Strategy
Cliff Jump Revisited (1 in a 1000 strategy) Replay Review Process - What do you do? Simple Questions, Simple Answers Odyssey Mineral Stack Saturation
Other Games
General Games
Nintendo Switch Thread Warcraft III: The Frozen Throne Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread EVE Corporation Diablo IV
Dota 2
Dota 2 Champions League Season 3 Begins April 25! Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
[TL LoL EUW IHs] Teemo shall perish
Heroes of the Storm
Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Deck construction bug
TL Mafia
TL Mafia Community Thread
Community
General
US Politics Mega-thread Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine All you football fans (soccer)! Russo-Ukrainian War Thread Canadian Politics Mega-thread
Fan Clubs
MarineLorD Fan Club The Creator Fan Club The ShoWTimE Fan Club
Media & Entertainment
Movie Discussion! [Manga] One Piece Diablo Animated Series on Netflix
Sports
Football (Soccer) Thread TeamLiquid Health and Fitness Initiative For 2023 MLB/Baseball 2023
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread
TL Community
Recent Gifted Posts
Blogs
Gaming Intensity, Problemati…
TrAiDoS
38 yo Retired SWE loo…
PurE)Rabbit-SF
Can Bots Beat Pros?? Starcr…
namkraft
[meme] I finally understa…
LUCKY_NOOB
Regacy Esports:Our Goa…
regacyesports
Dreaming of BW patches (mod…
c3rberUs
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 9002 users

[M] (2) Sandstone - Page 2

Forum Index > SC2 Maps & Custom Games
Post a Reply
Prev 1 2 All
EatThePath
Profile Blog Joined September 2009
United States3943 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-02-11 18:10:04
February 11 2013 18:03 GMT
#21
My personal view is that the improved pathing of SC2 is the main difference, leading to gameplay where most of the time it's bad expected utility to spread your army around in a passive way. The most important dynamic causing this is the inability to trade well against a larger group of units because the DPS / area is so fluid, unlike in BW where it took a lot of attention to properly orchestrate troop movement on a moment to moment tactical level for an attack.

These days pros are good enough that deathball 1a is certainly not a winning strategy, but it is the foundation on which the game operates and it can quickly devolve into that game if someone slips up. It's not that different than BW except for space control because the deathball skew is such a powerful ez-mode exploit.

On topic: With regard to this map, it is asking for super high level play to even make use of how the layout works. It's very unforgiving and I would expect the map to underperform, as it were, compared to the potential it offers based on timetwister's concept. On top of that I'm not happy about the 5th base especially, and adding a base would help that and also improve the "skill floor" of using the map the way it was designed to be used, producing more interesting games (if you prefer shrewd positioning gambits to roving deathballs, which I say emblematically).
Comprehensive strategic intention: DNE
SiskosGoatee
Profile Blog Joined May 2012
Albania1482 Posts
February 11 2013 18:12 GMT
#22
On February 12 2013 03:03 EatThePath wrote:
My personal view is that the improved pathing of SC2 is the main difference, leading to gameplay where most of the time it's bad expected utility to spread your army around in a passive way.
Well, improved pathing leads to better clumping meaning that a larger army fits through a narrow choke better meaning that a large army is more useful. Which is quite easy to combat in mapmaking, make more chokes. But hey, then people start to pre-emptively complain about a map being hard for Z while a quick look at the winrates on crossfire tells you this is bullshit.

The most important dynamic causing this is the inability to trade well against a larger group of units because the DPS / area is so fluid, unlike in BW where it took a lot of attention to properly orchestrate troop movement on a moment to moment tactical level for an attack.
Well, this has to do with amount of units firing at the same time. Basically the majority of a 200/200 army in SC2 can fire at the same time, but like I said, you have to realize how small a 200/200 army in SC2 actually is due to how much supply units cost. This is like a 120 pop army in BW in terms of unit count and cost which could also fire all at the same time a lot better.

And like I said, it's easy to adjust maps to this. So SC2 armies fit through chokes better, so make more and smaller chokes and you're done. But hey, then the platinum level protoss biased prodigy balance theorycrafters of this forum start to complain and cite a bunch of popular myths about map balance even though there is ample precedent in maths which like invalidates each and every one of those.
WCS Apartheid cometh, all hail the casual audience, death to merit and hard work.
Timetwister22
Profile Joined March 2011
United States538 Posts
February 11 2013 18:38 GMT
#23
You two really enjoy derailing threads...
Former ESV Mapmaker | @Timetwister22
SiskosGoatee
Profile Blog Joined May 2012
Albania1482 Posts
February 11 2013 18:54 GMT
#24
Granted, but it's a good discussion to help mapmaking in general, besides, it bumps your thread.
WCS Apartheid cometh, all hail the casual audience, death to merit and hard work.
RFDaemoniac
Profile Joined September 2011
United States544 Posts
February 11 2013 20:15 GMT
#25
What they're really trying to say is that the chokes in the middle of your map are pretty sweet :D
SiskosGoatee
Profile Blog Joined May 2012
Albania1482 Posts
February 11 2013 21:18 GMT
#26
That's what I'm trying tyo say anyway. Anyone who ever had a glimpse of any of my map will realize I like chokepoints.
WCS Apartheid cometh, all hail the casual audience, death to merit and hard work.
Fatam
Profile Joined June 2012
1986 Posts
February 11 2013 23:59 GMT
#27
The best maps (imo, of course) almost always feature tiny chokes + wide open areas, with some inbetween. That variety really helps make decision-making matter a lot more. If all the areas in the map are between 8 and 16 squares wide (looking at you, lots of SC2 maps) then it barely matters where engagements happen, which means there's less of a skill ceiling.

This map has a pretty good variety
Search "FTM" in SC2 | Latest Maps: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/sc2-maps/528528-2-ftm-siegfried-station http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/sc2-maps/525489-2-ftm-crimson-aftermath http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/sc2-maps/524737-2-ftm-grime
Timetwister22
Profile Joined March 2011
United States538 Posts
February 12 2013 00:49 GMT
#28
Updated the map to version 0.2. Check the change log in the original post to see all the change details.
Former ESV Mapmaker | @Timetwister22
Prev 1 2 All
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
BSL
19:00
S23 - Announcement Showmatch
Ret vs TerrOr
DragOn vs StRyKeR
ZZZero.O193
LiquipediaDiscussion
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
ProTech146
-ZergGirl 132
JuggernautJason75
SpeCial 27
StarCraft: Brood War
Shuttle 467
ZZZero.O 193
NaDa 25
Artosis 5
Dota 2
monkeys_forever300
NeuroSwarm81
League of Legends
Doublelift3059
JimRising 431
Heroes of the Storm
Grubby3331
Liquid`Hasu535
Khaldor264
Other Games
summit1g6857
FrodaN3263
Liquid`RaSZi2135
XaKoH 606
KnowMe280
ZombieGrub77
Mew2King49
CosmosSc2 22
[ Show 14 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• Hupsaiya 27
• mYiSmile122
• intothetv
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• Kozan
• IndyKCrew
• Migwel
StarCraft: Brood War
• BSLYoutube
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
Dota 2
• masondota21621
Other Games
• Scarra779
• imaqtpie567
• Shiphtur172
Upcoming Events
Replay Cast
2h 3m
Afreeca Starleague
12h 3m
Shine vs Rush
WardiTV Weekly
13h 3m
Monday Night Weeklies
18h 3m
Sparkling Tuna Cup
1d 12h
Afreeca Starleague
1d 12h
Light vs EffOrt
OSC
1d 14h
PiGosaur Cup
2 days
Kung Fu Cup
2 days
The PondCast
3 days
[ Show More ]
Replay Cast
4 days
Korean StarCraft League
5 days
CranKy Ducklings
5 days
GSL
6 days
Yamato Cup
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

K-JUNGMAN
Blizzard Classic Cup 2026
Big Dog Cup 2026 Div 1

Ongoing

ASL Season 22
Super Anchor Qualifying S3
CSL 2026 AUTUMN (S22)
Acropolis #5
Acropolis #5 - GSA
Calamity Invitational
Logitech G Play Connect 2026
SL StarSeries Fall 2026
FISSURE Playground #3
BLAST Open Fall 2026
Esports World Cup 2026
BLAST Bounty Summer 2026
BLAST Bounty Summer Qual
Stake Ranked Episode 3
XSE Pro League 2026

Upcoming

Acropolis #5 - GSB
Acropolis #5 - GSC
SC4ALL II: Brood War
BSL 23: Non-Korean Championship
HSC XXX
Stellar Fest 2: Lunar Cup
SC4ALL II: StarCraft II
Kung Fu Cup 2026 Grand Finals
RSL Offline Finals
Copium Cup
PGL Major Singapore 2026
Stake Ranked Episode 6
BLAST Rivals Fall 2026
IEM Beijing 2026
Stake Ranked Episode 5
PGL Masters Bucharest 2026
1win Private Club #2
Thunderpick World Champ. '26
ESL Pro League Season 24
Stake Ranked Episode 4
1win Private Club #1
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2026 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.