• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 17:25
CEST 23:25
KST 06:25
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
Team Liquid Map Contest #22: Results and Winners7Code S Season 2 (2026): RO4 and Finals Preview12TL.net Map Contest #22 - Voting & Ladder Map Selection7Code S Season 2 (2026) - RO8 Preview5[ASL21] Finals Preview: Two Legacies21
Community News
Douyu Cup 2026: $20,000 Legends Event (June 26-28)10[BSL22] Non-Korean Championship from 13 to 28 June4Weekly Cups (May 25-31): Clem doubles, 2v2 circuit heads toward finale0StarCraft II 5.0.16 PTR Patch Notes may 26th156Weekly Cups (May 18-24): MaxPax wins doubles0
StarCraft 2
General
TL Poll: How do you feel about the 5.0.16 PTR balance changes? RSL: S6 Finals played at BlizzCon 2026 Team Liquid Map Contest #22: Results and Winners High level ptr replays? where can I find them? StarCraft II 5.0.16 PTR Patch Notes may 26th
Tourneys
Douyu Cup 2026: $20,000 Legends Event (June 26-28) Maestros of The Game 2 announcement and schedule ! Sparkling Tuna Cup - Weekly Open Tournament Sea Duckling Open (Global, Bronze-Diamond) GSL Code S Season 2 (2026)
Strategy
[G] Having the right mentality to improve
Custom Maps
[D]RTS in all its shapes and glory <3
External Content
Mutation # 530 One For All The PondCast: SC2 News & Results Mutation # 529 Opportunities Unleashed Mutation # 528 Infection Detected
Brood War
General
Where is EffOrt? BW General Discussion BGH Auto Balance -> http://bghmmr.eu/ vespene.gg — BW replays in browser Quality of life changes in BW that you will like ?
Tourneys
[Megathread] Daily Proleagues [ASL21] Grand Finals [BSL22] Grand Finals - Sunday 21:00 CEST Escore Tournament StarCraft Season 2
Strategy
Creating a full chart of Zerg builds Relatively freeroll strategies Why doesn't anyone use restoration? Any training maps people recommend?
Other Games
General Games
ZeroSpace Megathread Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread Path of Exile Nintendo Switch Thread PC Games Sales Thread
Dota 2
Looking for a Dota Mentor Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Deck construction bug
TL Mafia
Vanilla Mini Mafia
Community
General
US Politics Mega-thread UK Politics Mega-thread Russo-Ukrainian War Thread Trading/Investing Thread Canadian Politics Mega-thread
Fan Clubs
The HerO Fan Club! The herO Fan Club!
Media & Entertainment
Movie Discussion! [Req][Books] Good Fantasy/SciFi books [TV/BOOK] *SPOILERS* Game of Thrones Discussion [Manga] One Piece
Sports
2024 - 2026 Football Thread TeamLiquid Health and Fitness Initiative For 2023 Formula 1 Discussion Cricket [SPORT] NBA General Discussion
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread Facing Challenges in Mobile App Development
TL Community
The Automated Ban List
Blogs
Does Workplace Frustration D…
TrAiDoS
An Exploration of th…
waywardstrategy
I'm an arrogant trash talke…
FlaShFTW
Gauntlet SC2: A Retrospectiv…
Ctone23
Why RTS gamers make better f…
gosubay
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 10005 users

[M] (2) Sandstone - Page 2

Forum Index > SC2 Maps & Custom Games
Post a Reply
Prev 1 2 All
EatThePath
Profile Blog Joined September 2009
United States3943 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-02-11 18:10:04
February 11 2013 18:03 GMT
#21
My personal view is that the improved pathing of SC2 is the main difference, leading to gameplay where most of the time it's bad expected utility to spread your army around in a passive way. The most important dynamic causing this is the inability to trade well against a larger group of units because the DPS / area is so fluid, unlike in BW where it took a lot of attention to properly orchestrate troop movement on a moment to moment tactical level for an attack.

These days pros are good enough that deathball 1a is certainly not a winning strategy, but it is the foundation on which the game operates and it can quickly devolve into that game if someone slips up. It's not that different than BW except for space control because the deathball skew is such a powerful ez-mode exploit.

On topic: With regard to this map, it is asking for super high level play to even make use of how the layout works. It's very unforgiving and I would expect the map to underperform, as it were, compared to the potential it offers based on timetwister's concept. On top of that I'm not happy about the 5th base especially, and adding a base would help that and also improve the "skill floor" of using the map the way it was designed to be used, producing more interesting games (if you prefer shrewd positioning gambits to roving deathballs, which I say emblematically).
Comprehensive strategic intention: DNE
SiskosGoatee
Profile Blog Joined May 2012
Albania1482 Posts
February 11 2013 18:12 GMT
#22
On February 12 2013 03:03 EatThePath wrote:
My personal view is that the improved pathing of SC2 is the main difference, leading to gameplay where most of the time it's bad expected utility to spread your army around in a passive way.
Well, improved pathing leads to better clumping meaning that a larger army fits through a narrow choke better meaning that a large army is more useful. Which is quite easy to combat in mapmaking, make more chokes. But hey, then people start to pre-emptively complain about a map being hard for Z while a quick look at the winrates on crossfire tells you this is bullshit.

The most important dynamic causing this is the inability to trade well against a larger group of units because the DPS / area is so fluid, unlike in BW where it took a lot of attention to properly orchestrate troop movement on a moment to moment tactical level for an attack.
Well, this has to do with amount of units firing at the same time. Basically the majority of a 200/200 army in SC2 can fire at the same time, but like I said, you have to realize how small a 200/200 army in SC2 actually is due to how much supply units cost. This is like a 120 pop army in BW in terms of unit count and cost which could also fire all at the same time a lot better.

And like I said, it's easy to adjust maps to this. So SC2 armies fit through chokes better, so make more and smaller chokes and you're done. But hey, then the platinum level protoss biased prodigy balance theorycrafters of this forum start to complain and cite a bunch of popular myths about map balance even though there is ample precedent in maths which like invalidates each and every one of those.
WCS Apartheid cometh, all hail the casual audience, death to merit and hard work.
Timetwister22
Profile Joined March 2011
United States538 Posts
February 11 2013 18:38 GMT
#23
You two really enjoy derailing threads...
Former ESV Mapmaker | @Timetwister22
SiskosGoatee
Profile Blog Joined May 2012
Albania1482 Posts
February 11 2013 18:54 GMT
#24
Granted, but it's a good discussion to help mapmaking in general, besides, it bumps your thread.
WCS Apartheid cometh, all hail the casual audience, death to merit and hard work.
RFDaemoniac
Profile Joined September 2011
United States544 Posts
February 11 2013 20:15 GMT
#25
What they're really trying to say is that the chokes in the middle of your map are pretty sweet :D
SiskosGoatee
Profile Blog Joined May 2012
Albania1482 Posts
February 11 2013 21:18 GMT
#26
That's what I'm trying tyo say anyway. Anyone who ever had a glimpse of any of my map will realize I like chokepoints.
WCS Apartheid cometh, all hail the casual audience, death to merit and hard work.
Fatam
Profile Joined June 2012
1986 Posts
February 11 2013 23:59 GMT
#27
The best maps (imo, of course) almost always feature tiny chokes + wide open areas, with some inbetween. That variety really helps make decision-making matter a lot more. If all the areas in the map are between 8 and 16 squares wide (looking at you, lots of SC2 maps) then it barely matters where engagements happen, which means there's less of a skill ceiling.

This map has a pretty good variety
Search "FTM" in SC2 | Latest Maps: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/sc2-maps/528528-2-ftm-siegfried-station http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/sc2-maps/525489-2-ftm-crimson-aftermath http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/sc2-maps/524737-2-ftm-grime
Timetwister22
Profile Joined March 2011
United States538 Posts
February 12 2013 00:49 GMT
#28
Updated the map to version 0.2. Check the change log in the original post to see all the change details.
Former ESV Mapmaker | @Timetwister22
Prev 1 2 All
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
Next event in 2h 35m
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
ZombieGrub423
ProTech106
Counter-Strike
pashabiceps1583
Other Games
summit1g8952
Grubby3851
Mlord613
shahzam593
B2W.Neo351
Trikslyr339
uThermal338
FrodaN315
Liquid`Hasu269
mouzStarbuck267
C9.Mang0238
UpATreeSC62
Mew2King57
Tefel11
fpsfer 2
Organizations
Dota 2
PGL Dota 2 - Main Stream3378
StarCraft 2
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
[ Show 18 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• Hupsaiya 37
• StrangeGG 12
• Kozan
• IndyKCrew
• sooper7s
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• Migwel
• intothetv
• LaughNgamezSOOP
StarCraft: Brood War
• blackmanpl 51
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
• BSLYoutube
Dota 2
• masondota2254
League of Legends
• TFBlade889
Other Games
• imaqtpie962
• WagamamaTV319
• Shiphtur111
Upcoming Events
OSC
2h 35m
ByuN vs Shameless
PiGosaur Cup
1d 2h
Replay Cast
1d 11h
The PondCast
2 days
OSC
3 days
CranKy Ducklings
3 days
GSL
4 days
Maru vs ShoWTimE
Classic vs Reynor
herO vs Lambo
Solar vs Clem
BSL22 NKC (BSL vs China)
4 days
XuanXuan vs Jaystar
Mihu vs Messiah
eOnzErG vs Dewalt
Bonyth vs Jaystar
TerrOr vs Messiah
XuanXuan vs Mihu
eOnzErG vs Jaystar
Replay Cast
5 days
GSL
5 days
[ Show More ]
Patches Events
5 days
BSL22 NKC (BSL vs China)
5 days
Dewalt vs Messiah
Bonyth vs Mihu
TerrOr vs XuanXuan
eOnzErG vs Messiah
Jaystar vs Mihu
Dewalt vs XuanXuan
Bonyth vs TerrOr
Replay Cast
6 days
WardiTV Weekly
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

Acropolis #4 - GSB
uThermal 2v2 2026 Main Event
Heroes Pulsing #1

Ongoing

IPSL Spring 2026
KCM Race Survival 2026 Season 2
Acropolis #4
CSCL: Masked Kings S4
YSL S3
BSL 22 Non-Korean Championship
Proleague 2026-06-15
SCTL 2026 Spring
Maestros of the Game 2
WardiTV Spring 2026
Murky Cup 2026
Heroes Pulsing #2
IEM Cologne Major 2026
Stake Ranked Episode 2
CS Asia Championships 2026
Asian Champions League 2026
IEM Atlanta 2026
PGL Astana 2026
BLAST Rivals Spring 2026
IEM Rio 2026
PGL Bucharest 2026
Stake Ranked Episode 1

Upcoming

CSL 2026 Summer (S21)
CSLAN 4
Blizzard Classic Cup 2026
Kung Fu Cup 2026 Grand Finals
RSL Revival: Season 6
CranK Gathers Season 4: BW vs SC2 Team League
HSC XXIX
Douyu Cup 2026
BCC 2026
Heroes Pulsing #3
BLAST Open Fall 2026
Esports World Cup 2026
BLAST Bounty Summer 2026
BLAST Bounty Summer Qual
Stake Ranked Episode 3
XSE Pro League 2026
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2026 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.