• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EST 16:10
CET 22:10
KST 06:10
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
TL.net Map Contest #21: Winners11Intel X Team Liquid Seoul event: Showmatches and Meet the Pros10[ASL20] Finals Preview: Arrival13TL.net Map Contest #21: Voting12[ASL20] Ro4 Preview: Descent11
Community News
Weekly Cups (Nov 3-9): Clem Conquers in Canada3SC: Evo Complete - Ranked Ladder OPEN ALPHA8StarCraft, SC2, HotS, WC3, Returning to Blizzcon!45$5,000+ WardiTV 2025 Championship7[BSL21] RO32 Group Stage4
StarCraft 2
General
Mech is the composition that needs teleportation t Weekly Cups (Nov 3-9): Clem Conquers in Canada Craziest Micro Moments Of All Time? SC: Evo Complete - Ranked Ladder OPEN ALPHA RotterdaM "Serral is the GOAT, and it's not close"
Tourneys
Constellation Cup - Main Event - Stellar Fest Tenacious Turtle Tussle Sparkling Tuna Cup - Weekly Open Tournament $5,000+ WardiTV 2025 Championship Merivale 8 Open - LAN - Stellar Fest
Strategy
Custom Maps
Map Editor closed ?
External Content
Mutation # 499 Chilling Adaptation Mutation # 498 Wheel of Misfortune|Cradle of Death Mutation # 497 Battle Haredened Mutation # 496 Endless Infection
Brood War
General
FlaSh on: Biggest Problem With SnOw's Playstyle BW General Discussion BGH Auto Balance -> http://bghmmr.eu/ [ASL20] Ask the mapmakers — Drop your questions Where's CardinalAllin/Jukado the mapmaker?
Tourneys
[ASL20] Grand Finals [Megathread] Daily Proleagues [BSL21] RO32 Group A - Saturday 21:00 CET [BSL21] RO32 Group B - Sunday 21:00 CET
Strategy
Current Meta PvZ map balance How to stay on top of macro? Soma's 9 hatch build from ASL Game 2
Other Games
General Games
Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread Nintendo Switch Thread Should offensive tower rushing be viable in RTS games? Path of Exile Dawn of War IV
Dota 2
Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Deck construction bug Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
TL Mafia Community Thread SPIRED by.ASL Mafia {211640}
Community
General
US Politics Mega-thread Russo-Ukrainian War Thread Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine Canadian Politics Mega-thread The Games Industry And ATVI
Fan Clubs
White-Ra Fan Club The herO Fan Club!
Media & Entertainment
[Manga] One Piece Anime Discussion Thread Movie Discussion! Korean Music Discussion Series you have seen recently...
Sports
2024 - 2026 Football Thread Formula 1 Discussion NBA General Discussion MLB/Baseball 2023 TeamLiquid Health and Fitness Initiative For 2023
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
SC2 Client Relocalization [Change SC2 Language] Linksys AE2500 USB WIFI keeps disconnecting Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread
TL Community
The Automated Ban List
Blogs
Dyadica Gospel – a Pulp No…
Hildegard
Coffee x Performance in Espo…
TrAiDoS
Saturation point
Uldridge
DnB/metal remix FFO Mick Go…
ImbaTosS
Reality "theory" prov…
perfectspheres
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 1744 users

[M] (2) Sandstone - Page 2

Forum Index > SC2 Maps & Custom Games
Post a Reply
Prev 1 2 All
EatThePath
Profile Blog Joined September 2009
United States3943 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-02-11 18:10:04
February 11 2013 18:03 GMT
#21
My personal view is that the improved pathing of SC2 is the main difference, leading to gameplay where most of the time it's bad expected utility to spread your army around in a passive way. The most important dynamic causing this is the inability to trade well against a larger group of units because the DPS / area is so fluid, unlike in BW where it took a lot of attention to properly orchestrate troop movement on a moment to moment tactical level for an attack.

These days pros are good enough that deathball 1a is certainly not a winning strategy, but it is the foundation on which the game operates and it can quickly devolve into that game if someone slips up. It's not that different than BW except for space control because the deathball skew is such a powerful ez-mode exploit.

On topic: With regard to this map, it is asking for super high level play to even make use of how the layout works. It's very unforgiving and I would expect the map to underperform, as it were, compared to the potential it offers based on timetwister's concept. On top of that I'm not happy about the 5th base especially, and adding a base would help that and also improve the "skill floor" of using the map the way it was designed to be used, producing more interesting games (if you prefer shrewd positioning gambits to roving deathballs, which I say emblematically).
Comprehensive strategic intention: DNE
SiskosGoatee
Profile Blog Joined May 2012
Albania1482 Posts
February 11 2013 18:12 GMT
#22
On February 12 2013 03:03 EatThePath wrote:
My personal view is that the improved pathing of SC2 is the main difference, leading to gameplay where most of the time it's bad expected utility to spread your army around in a passive way.
Well, improved pathing leads to better clumping meaning that a larger army fits through a narrow choke better meaning that a large army is more useful. Which is quite easy to combat in mapmaking, make more chokes. But hey, then people start to pre-emptively complain about a map being hard for Z while a quick look at the winrates on crossfire tells you this is bullshit.

The most important dynamic causing this is the inability to trade well against a larger group of units because the DPS / area is so fluid, unlike in BW where it took a lot of attention to properly orchestrate troop movement on a moment to moment tactical level for an attack.
Well, this has to do with amount of units firing at the same time. Basically the majority of a 200/200 army in SC2 can fire at the same time, but like I said, you have to realize how small a 200/200 army in SC2 actually is due to how much supply units cost. This is like a 120 pop army in BW in terms of unit count and cost which could also fire all at the same time a lot better.

And like I said, it's easy to adjust maps to this. So SC2 armies fit through chokes better, so make more and smaller chokes and you're done. But hey, then the platinum level protoss biased prodigy balance theorycrafters of this forum start to complain and cite a bunch of popular myths about map balance even though there is ample precedent in maths which like invalidates each and every one of those.
WCS Apartheid cometh, all hail the casual audience, death to merit and hard work.
Timetwister22
Profile Joined March 2011
United States538 Posts
February 11 2013 18:38 GMT
#23
You two really enjoy derailing threads...
Former ESV Mapmaker | @Timetwister22
SiskosGoatee
Profile Blog Joined May 2012
Albania1482 Posts
February 11 2013 18:54 GMT
#24
Granted, but it's a good discussion to help mapmaking in general, besides, it bumps your thread.
WCS Apartheid cometh, all hail the casual audience, death to merit and hard work.
RFDaemoniac
Profile Joined September 2011
United States544 Posts
February 11 2013 20:15 GMT
#25
What they're really trying to say is that the chokes in the middle of your map are pretty sweet :D
SiskosGoatee
Profile Blog Joined May 2012
Albania1482 Posts
February 11 2013 21:18 GMT
#26
That's what I'm trying tyo say anyway. Anyone who ever had a glimpse of any of my map will realize I like chokepoints.
WCS Apartheid cometh, all hail the casual audience, death to merit and hard work.
Fatam
Profile Joined June 2012
1986 Posts
February 11 2013 23:59 GMT
#27
The best maps (imo, of course) almost always feature tiny chokes + wide open areas, with some inbetween. That variety really helps make decision-making matter a lot more. If all the areas in the map are between 8 and 16 squares wide (looking at you, lots of SC2 maps) then it barely matters where engagements happen, which means there's less of a skill ceiling.

This map has a pretty good variety
Search "FTM" in SC2 | Latest Maps: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/sc2-maps/528528-2-ftm-siegfried-station http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/sc2-maps/525489-2-ftm-crimson-aftermath http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/sc2-maps/524737-2-ftm-grime
Timetwister22
Profile Joined March 2011
United States538 Posts
February 12 2013 00:49 GMT
#28
Updated the map to version 0.2. Check the change log in the original post to see all the change details.
Former ESV Mapmaker | @Timetwister22
Prev 1 2 All
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
OSC
16:00
Masters Cup #150: Group A
Liquipedia
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
White-Ra 263
JuggernautJason197
IndyStarCraft 195
ProTech86
StarCraft: Brood War
Calm 1917
Shuttle 656
firebathero 175
Dota 2
Dendi1170
Counter-Strike
pashabiceps910
Foxcn183
Heroes of the Storm
Liquid`Hasu473
Other Games
summit1g6577
Grubby4235
Beastyqt660
fl0m499
DeMusliM381
Fuzer 219
Skadoodle164
C9.Mang060
Organizations
StarCraft 2
angryscii 16
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
sctven
[ Show 17 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• Adnapsc2 14
• Dystopia_ 5
• intothetv
• IndyKCrew
• sooper7s
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• Migwel
• LaughNgamezSOOP
• Kozan
StarCraft: Brood War
• blackmanpl 1
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
• BSLYoutube
Dota 2
• WagamamaTV661
League of Legends
• imaqtpie2754
• TFBlade1053
Other Games
• Shiphtur245
Upcoming Events
Replay Cast
1h 50m
Replay Cast
11h 50m
OSC
14h 20m
Kung Fu Cup
14h 50m
Classic vs Solar
herO vs Cure
Reynor vs GuMiho
ByuN vs ShoWTimE
Tenacious Turtle Tussle
1d 1h
The PondCast
1d 12h
RSL Revival
1d 12h
Solar vs Zoun
MaxPax vs Bunny
Kung Fu Cup
1d 14h
WardiTV Korean Royale
1d 14h
PiGosaur Monday
2 days
[ Show More ]
RSL Revival
2 days
Classic vs Creator
Cure vs TriGGeR
Kung Fu Cup
2 days
CranKy Ducklings
3 days
RSL Revival
3 days
herO vs Gerald
ByuN vs SHIN
Kung Fu Cup
3 days
IPSL
3 days
ZZZero vs rasowy
Napoleon vs KameZerg
BSL 21
3 days
Tarson vs Julia
Doodle vs OldBoy
eOnzErG vs WolFix
StRyKeR vs Aeternum
Sparkling Tuna Cup
4 days
RSL Revival
4 days
Reynor vs sOs
Maru vs Ryung
Kung Fu Cup
4 days
WardiTV Korean Royale
4 days
BSL 21
4 days
JDConan vs Semih
Dragon vs Dienmax
Tech vs NewOcean
TerrOr vs Artosis
IPSL
4 days
Dewalt vs WolFix
eOnzErG vs Bonyth
Wardi Open
5 days
Monday Night Weeklies
5 days
WardiTV Korean Royale
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

Proleague 2025-11-07
Stellar Fest: Constellation Cup
Eternal Conflict S1

Ongoing

C-Race Season 1
IPSL Winter 2025-26
KCM Race Survival 2025 Season 4
SOOP Univ League 2025
YSL S2
BSL Season 21
IEM Chengdu 2025
PGL Masters Bucharest 2025
Thunderpick World Champ.
CS Asia Championships 2025
ESL Pro League S22
StarSeries Fall 2025
FISSURE Playground #2
BLAST Open Fall 2025
BLAST Open Fall Qual

Upcoming

SLON Tour Season 2
BSL 21 Non-Korean Championship
Acropolis #4
IPSL Spring 2026
HSC XXVIII
RSL Offline Finals
WardiTV 2025
RSL Revival: Season 3
META Madness #9
BLAST Bounty Winter 2026
BLAST Bounty Winter 2026: Closed Qualifier
eXTREMESLAND 2025
ESL Impact League Season 8
SL Budapest Major 2025
BLAST Rivals Fall 2025
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2025 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.