• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 02:54
CEST 08:54
KST 15:54
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
[ASL19] Finals Recap: Standing Tall10HomeStory Cup 27 - Info & Preview18Classic wins Code S Season 2 (2025)16Code S RO4 & Finals Preview: herO, Rogue, Classic, GuMiho0TL Team Map Contest #5: Presented by Monster Energy6
Community News
Firefly given lifetime ban by ESIC following match-fixing investigation5$25,000 Streamerzone StarCraft Pro Series announced4Weekly Cups (June 30 - July 6): Classic Doubles5[BSL20] Non-Korean Championship 4x BSL + 4x China9Flash Announces Hiatus From ASL66
StarCraft 2
General
The SCII GOAT: A statistical Evaluation The GOAT ranking of GOAT rankings Firefly given lifetime ban by ESIC following match-fixing investigation Weekly Cups (June 30 - July 6): Classic Doubles Jim claims he and Firefly were involved in match-fixing
Tourneys
$25,000 Streamerzone StarCraft Pro Series announced FEL Cracov 2025 (July 27) - $8000 live event Sparkling Tuna Cup - Weekly Open Tournament RSL: Revival, a new crowdfunded tournament series WardiTV Mondays
Strategy
How did i lose this ZvP, whats the proper response Simple Questions Simple Answers
Custom Maps
[UMS] Zillion Zerglings
External Content
Mutation # 481 Fear and Lava Mutation # 480 Moths to the Flame Mutation # 479 Worn Out Welcome Mutation # 478 Instant Karma
Brood War
General
i aint gon lie to u bruh... ASL20 Preliminary Maps BGH Auto Balance -> http://bghmmr.eu/ [ASL19] Finals Recap: Standing Tall SC uni coach streams logging into betting site
Tourneys
[BSL20] Non-Korean Championship 4x BSL + 4x China [BSL20] Grand Finals - Sunday 20:00 CET CSL Xiamen International Invitational The Casual Games of the Week Thread
Strategy
Simple Questions, Simple Answers I am doing this better than progamers do.
Other Games
General Games
Earn Rewards for Every Prediction in the Game Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread Nintendo Switch Thread Path of Exile What do you want from future RTS games?
Dota 2
Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
TL Mafia Community Thread Vanilla Mini Mafia
Community
General
US Politics Mega-thread Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine Summer Games Done Quick 2025! Russo-Ukrainian War Thread Stop Killing Games - European Citizens Initiative
Fan Clubs
SKT1 Classic Fan Club! Maru Fan Club
Media & Entertainment
Anime Discussion Thread [Manga] One Piece [\m/] Heavy Metal Thread
Sports
2024 - 2025 Football Thread Formula 1 Discussion NBA General Discussion TeamLiquid Health and Fitness Initiative For 2023 NHL Playoffs 2024
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread
TL Community
The Automated Ban List
Blogs
momentary artworks from des…
tankgirl
Culture Clash in Video Games…
TrAiDoS
from making sc maps to makin…
Husyelt
StarCraft improvement
iopq
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 617 users

[M] (2) Sandstone - Page 2

Forum Index > SC2 Maps & Custom Games
Post a Reply
Prev 1 2 All
EatThePath
Profile Blog Joined September 2009
United States3943 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-02-11 18:10:04
February 11 2013 18:03 GMT
#21
My personal view is that the improved pathing of SC2 is the main difference, leading to gameplay where most of the time it's bad expected utility to spread your army around in a passive way. The most important dynamic causing this is the inability to trade well against a larger group of units because the DPS / area is so fluid, unlike in BW where it took a lot of attention to properly orchestrate troop movement on a moment to moment tactical level for an attack.

These days pros are good enough that deathball 1a is certainly not a winning strategy, but it is the foundation on which the game operates and it can quickly devolve into that game if someone slips up. It's not that different than BW except for space control because the deathball skew is such a powerful ez-mode exploit.

On topic: With regard to this map, it is asking for super high level play to even make use of how the layout works. It's very unforgiving and I would expect the map to underperform, as it were, compared to the potential it offers based on timetwister's concept. On top of that I'm not happy about the 5th base especially, and adding a base would help that and also improve the "skill floor" of using the map the way it was designed to be used, producing more interesting games (if you prefer shrewd positioning gambits to roving deathballs, which I say emblematically).
Comprehensive strategic intention: DNE
SiskosGoatee
Profile Blog Joined May 2012
Albania1482 Posts
February 11 2013 18:12 GMT
#22
On February 12 2013 03:03 EatThePath wrote:
My personal view is that the improved pathing of SC2 is the main difference, leading to gameplay where most of the time it's bad expected utility to spread your army around in a passive way.
Well, improved pathing leads to better clumping meaning that a larger army fits through a narrow choke better meaning that a large army is more useful. Which is quite easy to combat in mapmaking, make more chokes. But hey, then people start to pre-emptively complain about a map being hard for Z while a quick look at the winrates on crossfire tells you this is bullshit.

The most important dynamic causing this is the inability to trade well against a larger group of units because the DPS / area is so fluid, unlike in BW where it took a lot of attention to properly orchestrate troop movement on a moment to moment tactical level for an attack.
Well, this has to do with amount of units firing at the same time. Basically the majority of a 200/200 army in SC2 can fire at the same time, but like I said, you have to realize how small a 200/200 army in SC2 actually is due to how much supply units cost. This is like a 120 pop army in BW in terms of unit count and cost which could also fire all at the same time a lot better.

And like I said, it's easy to adjust maps to this. So SC2 armies fit through chokes better, so make more and smaller chokes and you're done. But hey, then the platinum level protoss biased prodigy balance theorycrafters of this forum start to complain and cite a bunch of popular myths about map balance even though there is ample precedent in maths which like invalidates each and every one of those.
WCS Apartheid cometh, all hail the casual audience, death to merit and hard work.
Timetwister22
Profile Joined March 2011
United States538 Posts
February 11 2013 18:38 GMT
#23
You two really enjoy derailing threads...
Former ESV Mapmaker | @Timetwister22
SiskosGoatee
Profile Blog Joined May 2012
Albania1482 Posts
February 11 2013 18:54 GMT
#24
Granted, but it's a good discussion to help mapmaking in general, besides, it bumps your thread.
WCS Apartheid cometh, all hail the casual audience, death to merit and hard work.
RFDaemoniac
Profile Joined September 2011
United States544 Posts
February 11 2013 20:15 GMT
#25
What they're really trying to say is that the chokes in the middle of your map are pretty sweet :D
SiskosGoatee
Profile Blog Joined May 2012
Albania1482 Posts
February 11 2013 21:18 GMT
#26
That's what I'm trying tyo say anyway. Anyone who ever had a glimpse of any of my map will realize I like chokepoints.
WCS Apartheid cometh, all hail the casual audience, death to merit and hard work.
Fatam
Profile Joined June 2012
1986 Posts
February 11 2013 23:59 GMT
#27
The best maps (imo, of course) almost always feature tiny chokes + wide open areas, with some inbetween. That variety really helps make decision-making matter a lot more. If all the areas in the map are between 8 and 16 squares wide (looking at you, lots of SC2 maps) then it barely matters where engagements happen, which means there's less of a skill ceiling.

This map has a pretty good variety
Search "FTM" in SC2 | Latest Maps: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/sc2-maps/528528-2-ftm-siegfried-station http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/sc2-maps/525489-2-ftm-crimson-aftermath http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/sc2-maps/524737-2-ftm-grime
Timetwister22
Profile Joined March 2011
United States538 Posts
February 12 2013 00:49 GMT
#28
Updated the map to version 0.2. Check the change log in the original post to see all the change details.
Former ESV Mapmaker | @Timetwister22
Prev 1 2 All
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
Next event in 3h 7m
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
WinterStarcraft654
StarCraft: Brood War
Leta 511
TY 373
PianO 264
actioN 71
Noble 70
sSak 60
Sacsri 13
Yoon 9
yabsab 4
Dota 2
XaKoH 443
ODPixel202
League of Legends
JimRising 671
Counter-Strike
Stewie2K950
Other Games
summit1g8874
shahzam1044
monkeys_forever241
Organizations
Other Games
gamesdonequick36256
StarCraft 2
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
sctven
[ Show 17 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• Berry_CruncH350
• Hupsaiya 58
• Kozan
• LaughNgamezSOOP
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• sooper7s
• intothetv
• Migwel
• IndyKCrew
StarCraft: Brood War
• tankgirl 1
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
• BSLYoutube
Dota 2
• lizZardDota298
League of Legends
• Rush1633
• Lourlo1566
• Stunt421
Upcoming Events
The PondCast
3h 7m
uThermal 2v2 Circuit
9h 7m
WardiTV European League
9h 7m
Jumy vs NightPhoenix
Percival vs Nicoract
ArT vs HiGhDrA
MaxPax vs Harstem
Scarlett vs Shameless
SKillous vs uThermal
Replay Cast
17h 7m
RSL Revival
1d 3h
ByuN vs SHIN
Clem vs Reynor
OSC
1d 6h
Replay Cast
1d 17h
RSL Revival
2 days
Classic vs Cure
FEL
2 days
OSC
2 days
[ Show More ]
RSL Revival
3 days
FEL
3 days
FEL
3 days
CSO Cup
3 days
BSL20 Non-Korean Champi…
3 days
Bonyth vs QiaoGege
Dewalt vs Fengzi
Hawk vs Zhanhun
Sziky vs Mihu
Mihu vs QiaoGege
Zhanhun vs Sziky
Fengzi vs Hawk
Sparkling Tuna Cup
4 days
RSL Revival
4 days
FEL
4 days
BSL20 Non-Korean Champi…
4 days
Bonyth vs Dewalt
QiaoGege vs Dewalt
Hawk vs Bonyth
Sziky vs Fengzi
Mihu vs Zhanhun
QiaoGege vs Zhanhun
Fengzi vs Mihu
Replay Cast
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

Proleague 2025-07-07
HSC XXVII
Heroes 10 EU

Ongoing

JPL Season 2
BSL 2v2 Season 3
Acropolis #3
KCM Race Survival 2025 Season 2
CSL 17: 2025 SUMMER
Copa Latinoamericana 4
Jiahua Invitational
Championship of Russia 2025
RSL Revival: Season 1
Murky Cup #2
BLAST.tv Austin Major 2025
ESL Impact League Season 7
IEM Dallas 2025
PGL Astana 2025
Asian Champions League '25
BLAST Rivals Spring 2025
MESA Nomadic Masters
CCT Season 2 Global Finals
IEM Melbourne 2025

Upcoming

2025 ACS Season 2: Qualifier
CSLPRO Last Chance 2025
CSL Xiamen Invitational
2025 ACS Season 2
CSLPRO Chat StarLAN 3
K-Championship
uThermal 2v2 Main Event
SEL Season 2 Championship
FEL Cracov 2025
Esports World Cup 2025
Underdog Cup #2
StarSeries Fall 2025
FISSURE Playground #2
BLAST Open Fall 2025
BLAST Open Fall Qual
Esports World Cup 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall Qual
IEM Cologne 2025
FISSURE Playground #1
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2025 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.