EPTMany maps have unique cannon placements which differ levels of cannon rushers, it is not bad, you just have to learn the map. Whining will do you no good, actually learning how to play on different maps will. Your answers are irritating since you do not admit that you are wrong when faced with valid answers.
[M] (2) DF Yeonsu - Page 10
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moskonia
Israel1448 Posts
Many maps have unique cannon placements which differ levels of cannon rushers, it is not bad, you just have to learn the map. Whining will do you no good, actually learning how to play on different maps will. Your answers are irritating since you do not admit that you are wrong when faced with valid answers. | ||
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chuky500
France473 Posts
I seems easier to criticize me rather than judging the map itself. I raise valid points but you talk about me saying I'm a bad mapper and bad player. What about the point Morrow raised ? Is he a bad mapper and a bad player too ? Or maybe can we finally talk about a map in the map section of the forum ? edit : Yonnua no you can't put a cyber core anymore and wall on my example because there are 2 open spots. | ||
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NewSunshine
United States5938 Posts
On September 19 2013 08:32 chuky500 wrote: So if the mapper makes mistakes it's good design and if I do it it's me being lazy and sucking, I think I get your point. Still there are other bad points I've mentionned but it's ok if you just want to use the first point to insult me. Not the first time you do this. Also not the first time you criticize something you don't happen to like, pointing out that it must be a mistake Because, clearly, you know something nobody else does. | ||
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Slydie
1998 Posts
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SiskosGoatee
Albania1482 Posts
On September 19 2013 07:15 chuky500 wrote: Meh, you just can't check for all of this, which is why such things only become apparent once maps are on the ladder, the point is it can be easily 'fixed' if need be. A lot of maps had such things. Polar Night's mineral line could be walled with 2 pylons. You could still do a 3 pylon wallin on Neo Planet S even with the plate. You just don't ever think to check for this ever and it takes a map being on the ladder for someone to discover these things eventually. This will always happen, the difference is that when it happens with a blizzard map everyone goes apeshit over blizz' incompetence.I'm not arguing about the level of maps, I'm saying this map wasn't proof checked and that judges didn't take their time before judging. This map could have been improved a lot before ending on the ladder. On September 19 2013 09:49 Yonnua wrote: tl;dr people shouldn't criticise map-makers if they couldn't do anywhere near as well. Really dislike this argument, it's also technically an ad-hominem. Your criticism on someone or something can be valid if you can't do it as well. | ||
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chuky500
France473 Posts
On September 20 2013 02:41 TotalBiscuit wrote: This map is pretty horrible. That expansion with a cliff, towards the Terran player, with the mineral line in range of marines on the low ground? Good lord, welcome back to Desert Oasis. Apparently I'm not the only one who doesn't like the map. Totalbiscuit said that in the Acer Teamstory cup thread after Axiom lost to Complexity on Yeonsu. I suggest you reply there that he can't complain if he's not a good mapper  | ||
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Yonnua
United Kingdom2331 Posts
On September 20 2013 02:28 SiskosGoatee wrote: Really dislike this argument, it's also technically an ad-hominem. Your criticism on someone or something can be valid if you can't do it as well. Please don't cut off something I said half way through to misrepresent what I said. | ||
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moskonia
Israel1448 Posts
On September 20 2013 07:11 chuky500 wrote: Apparently I'm not the only one who doesn't like the map. Totalbiscuit said that in the Acer Teamstory cup thread after Axiom lost to Complexity on Yeonsu. I suggest you reply there that he can't complain if he's not a good mapper TB does not know shit, just because he is a public figure does not mean his words has any value. He is about silver or gold level and is a play-byplay caster, the fact that you are looking for people who has the same views as you instead of giving any actual real arguments just shows how wrong are you. And what are you trying to prove anyways? That the map is bad? That it should be removed from ladder? If you were looking for help you have gotten it already, detailed and from many people, so please stop whining. | ||
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eTcetRa
Australia822 Posts
On September 20 2013 07:11 chuky500 wrote: Totalbiscuit said that in the Acer Teamstory cup thread after Axiom lost to Complexity on Yeonsu. I suggest you reply there that he can't complain if he's not a good mapper Seems legit and not in any way biased  | ||
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SiskosGoatee
Albania1482 Posts
On September 20 2013 07:11 chuky500 wrote: Apparently I'm not the only one who doesn't like the map. Totalbiscuit said that in the Acer Teamstory cup thread after Axiom lost to Complexity on Yeonsu. I suggest you reply there that he can't complain if he's not a good mapper Citing TB doesn't exactly further your case, he's like what, gold or plat? That said, he's right in this case, it does favour Terran. Each of the features these map has can exist without them hampering Zerg, but them all together is just too much: - Super easy to defend natural and third that is very chocked up. - Low expansion count - Being forced to expand towards your opponent - third/fourth that is highly siegable | ||
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moskonia
Israel1448 Posts
- Super easy to defend natural and third that is very chocked up. - Low expansion count How are these true? The nat entrance is not a ramp, is 10 square wide and has a backdoor, thus more hard to defend than any other map on the ladder. The 3rd is not that easy as well, although after you break the rocks it's not that hard, but it's not super easy like entombed or something alike. Six expansions is a low number? I agree that the map forces you to expand towards your opponent, but the number of expansions is pretty standard. | ||
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Yonnua
United Kingdom2331 Posts
On September 20 2013 22:58 SiskosGoatee wrote: Citing TB doesn't exactly further your case, he's like what, gold or plat? That said, he's right in this case, it does favour Terran. Each of the features these map has can exist without them hampering Zerg, but them all together is just too much: - Super easy to defend natural and third that is very chocked up. - Low expansion count - Being forced to expand towards your opponent - third/fourth that is highly siegable TB wasn't complaining about the map being bad for zerg, he was saying it was bad for protoss. | ||
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TotalBiscuit
United Kingdom5437 Posts
TB does not know shit Unlike every TL poster who are minimum high masters with several years experience in progaming and map-making | ||
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lorestarcraft
United States1049 Posts
On September 21 2013 11:21 TotalBiscuit wrote: Unlike every TL poster who are minimum high masters with several years experience in progaming and map-making Wellll... a lot of us are masters players with a few years mapmaking experience, but not every one!  | ||
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EatThePath
United States3943 Posts
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moskonia
Israel1448 Posts
On September 21 2013 11:21 TotalBiscuit wrote: Unlike every TL poster who are minimum high masters with several years experience in progaming and map-making I am actually high master on EU and have been playing since the game launched, can link my profile if you want proof, also I made quite a few maps, not as much as other map makers, but still enough to understand more about maps than most people. I am sorry but while I like your casting imo you really aren't at a sufficient level to talk about balance. | ||
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TotalBiscuit
United Kingdom5437 Posts
On September 21 2013 14:19 moskonia wrote: I am actually high master on EU and have been playing since the game launched, can link my profile if you want proof, also I made quite a few maps, not as much as other map makers, but still enough to understand more about maps than most people. I am sorry but while I like your casting imo you really aren't at a sufficient level to talk about balance. Here's the thing, because apparently casting thousands of matches is not adequate qualification to talk about fairly obvious map balance issues (I get it, I'm not too good at Starcraft, but I do know a thing or two), I also have access to the opinions of a lot of pros. I asked a few tonight and made sure they weren't from my team just so the "bias" accusation can't be thrown out. Here are the opinions of 3 pros. Taken their names out because if they wanna make an official statement on the map they're welcome to do so and I trust that people are not going to stoop as low as to accuse me of making these quotes up. I can get more if you like. yeah man super good map for terran i feel super chokey kind of feels good for toss too vs zerg >_< [9/20/2013 11:42:05 PM] I don't like it [12:05:37 AM] also I vetoed it right away so sorry I can't be any more insightful XD [12:05:45 AM] but its definetly not a good zerg map [12:05:46 AM] imo [12:05:51 AM] not for zvt or zvp [12:05:54 AM] too many chokes [12:05:59 AM] : vs p [9/20/2013 10:36:45 PM] TotalBiscuit: do you reckon Yeonsu is any good? That expansion with the cliffs seems awfully easy to exploit hard as Terran [9/20/2013 10:53:19 PM] : i agree and its happened to me before a few times [9/20/2013 10:53:26 PM] : terrans have set up marine drops with widow mines below the cliff [9/20/2013 10:53:37 PM] : the widow mines are also within range of the mineral line and its a pain in the ass to deal with [9/20/2013 10:53:41 PM] : but i like that map zvp and zvz [9/20/2013 10:53:49 PM] : its a really good swarm host map [9/20/2013 10:54:07 PM] : ZvT all comes down to getting ahead early and denying a 3rd, if you can do that its a good map for ZvT [9/20/2013 10:54:13 PM] : the game gets decided early thoguh imo [9/20/2013 10:54:20 PM] : if the terran is allowed to pressure and get ahead, ur fucked as zerg [9/20/2013 10:54:21 PM] : its hard to come back So next time, I'd appreciate it if people didn't immediately dismiss my argument just because I don't ladder much. Most casters don't ladder much, I'm part time, I got other things I have to do, sorry. I have however still cast thousands of professional games at the highest level and that has given me some idea of what's going on when it comes to maps and positioning. | ||
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Timetwister22
United States538 Posts
Instead, it's all about game knowledge, and knowing what pro players are capable of. One must understand what each race can and cannot do with their units and timings, and how terrain affects those. Then, one must be able to identify that a pro may be able to take advantage of a map much more than the average ladder player due to much higher apm and better decision making. It just comes down to understanding how the game works and how well one can theory craft, not how well one can play. Though, playing certainly helps one understand what it's like to be dropped in three places at once, or fight a Protoss through a tiny choke. But yeah, not all that important. It just so happens that the majority who commit to learning how the game works also commit to learning micro, macro, and mechanics. Between casting many games and being involved directly with pros, I think the opinion of TB certainly suffices as a worthy one to take note of. | ||
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eTcetRa
Australia822 Posts
Interested to hear from you. As to the quotes themselves if your question was "do you reckon Yeonsu is any good? That expansion with the cliffs seems awfully easy to exploit hard as Terran" then that's already pushing your opinion on them and skewing the answers. A better question to ask would have been "what do you think about Yeonsu in regards to balance?". But alas even asking that question to the same three players would be pointless considering that multiple pros of the same race can have vastly different views. As much as I'll respect your opinion and feel that it is worth considering (even if I believe in this case it is biased) complaining about it amounts to the same as complaining about drops being powerful on Akilon and Polar because of air space.. There are other factors that play a role in the map. Protoss have a lot of blink harrass power on Yeonsu and Zerg have a lot of flanking and run-by opportunities. Again, I would like to hear from you and have a discussion if you would like to pm me! Edit: probably a lot of fuck ups in this post. On phone..... | ||
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Semmo
Korea (South)627 Posts
 No Totalbiscuit Post on Frost... Please post on my map too. Thanks.Also, I mean obviously there are some map flaws to Yeonsu, which gives advantage to certain races. And I don't know if the map makes those map flaws in delibration or whatever. But the map is different from the rest of the map pool, which isn't so bad. And it's too late to change it, since Blizzard really didn't test it or consult anyone. My suggestions: - Remove towers: Makes hard for come back - Add another pathway on the sides of map: Gives more options for zerg, so that zerg feels less constricted. - Fix main ramp - Fix Main, make map bigger or something P.S. Also, Mr. Totalbiscuit, it'd be nice if you could have more talks like this for maps! Can lead to good discussion and also good suggestions. | ||
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