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Although it is difficult to admit, I am a SCreddit reader. I found one of TB's IPL VoDs on youtube originally and from that found reddit.com/r/starcraft which has been my sole source of starcraft news for over a year. This is actually part of the reason why I was a latecomer to the mapping scene as there is very little discussion on maps, and none on the creation of maps, despite my interest in the subject.
The few recent threads on reddit that I have seen about map pools have displayed a disturbing lack of understanding on the subject of mapping and of the potential of new maps in freshening up the competitive scene.
Here is an example on the subject on TDA getting removed from ladder : http://www.reddit.com/r/starcraft/comments/ym0ag/when_will_taldarim_altar_le_be_cut_from_the_map/
Now luckily the reddit community at least seems to understand roughly which maps need removing the most; the top voted comments talk about the removal of TDA, Shakuras, Antiga and Condemned. However a bit more in depth look at the comments reveals a whole lot of misinformation and general confusion about the process of making and introducing new maps. I won't go in to detail about it because we have all seen it and know about the community's thoughts on new maps, that isn't what this thread is about.
This thread is about ways of informing the community as a whole that there are more maps out there than GSL maps, and that we as map makers want open discussions with the community so that not only do we receive more feedback and exposure but so we can clear up some of misinformation surrounding the subject.
So how do I propose we do this? We as map makers are quite insular. We have our own section of TL that we occasionally venture out from but which rarely gets visited from others. We have a few private chats here and there, we are not visible at all to the community at large. I propose we make ourselves more visible by focussing our efforts on one target : reddit.
At the moment ESVDiamond acts as a 1 man knowledge dropping machine, he is regularly the top comment on reddit threads, and has probably single handedly changed a lot of people's perceptions of mapping already, despite not being a mapper himself. This, however, should not be Diamond's burden alone. Any discussion on mapping on reddit needs to be upvoted and well informed comments really will help our cause. You'd be surprised how many people can be reached by a few well worded comments, only 1% of reddit viewers actually post comments.
However I know that posting comments is time consuming and can feel like fighting a losing battle some times. Therefore I feel that the main thing that we can do to help our cause is to actually post our maps on reddit. I recently ran a mini experiment by posting my map Uncanny Valley and the response was incredibly positive. It reached the top 5 with over 200 upvotes, which shows a desire from the reddit community to expose new maps and talk about the implications of introducing new maps. Icetoad posted his map Aradia the day after mine and it reached the front page with over 100 upvotes. I've seen terrible maps reach the front page by virtue of it being a bit of a slow news day. Reddit clearly has the appetite for such threads.
You can find my reddit thread here. You will notice that, although there were a lot of trolls and bronze leaguers, there was actually a decent amount of good, honest feedback, more than I even received here. However the main purpose of posting my map to reddit was not to receive feedback, it was to gain exposure. Exposure is what the mapping community desperately needs. Without the community (and guess what, screddit has a fair amount of clout in 'our industry') there is no pressure for tournaments to pick up new maps, there is no talk about new maps from a wider audience, there is no way for new maps to make it in to the map pool except through very specific channels (ESV/GSL).
So please, if you see a discussion on maps on r/starcraft; give it an upvote and, even better, a comment. If you make a new map, post it to reddit. It may seem daunting exposing your creation to the hoards but you will gain valuable feedback and the mapping community will gain much needed exposure.
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I did post my maps on reddit. The lack of actually useful comments made me stop it. One half call the map horrible because the 3rd was too easy, the other half called it horrible because it was too hard.
According to the exposure, I think there are plenty enough maps out there to be used in tournaments. Its up to the organizers to use them.
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On August 24 2012 23:30 Aunvilgod wrote:
I did post my maps on reddit. The lack of actually useful comments made me stop it. One half call the map horrible because the 3rd was too easy, the other half called it horrible because it was too hard.
According to the exposure, I think there are plenty enough maps out there to be used in tournaments. Its up to the organizers to use them.
I agree that reddit can be pretty bipolar in that way but you soon learn to reject the bad comments and embrace the good. No player will ever be impartial.
The vast majority of maps that get created never get any exposure beyond the TL Mapping forum. When you ask the average joe starcraft watcher which maps they would like to see in future tournaments they only ever reply with GSL maps because that's all they ever see. They have no idea of the breadth of maps out there and with no desire from the community, the tournaments don't have much incentive to pick new maps up.
Could we be doing more to push tournaments to use new maps? Yes, absolutely. But putting our maps up on reddit is a small thing that we can do that could help a lot. Lets not forget that a lot of tournament organisers browse reddit. How many browse the TL mapping forum?
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I think its cool that it gives the map more exposure, but the last things I would ever do when it comes to mapmaking are-
1) make changes based on what random people say (not you are insinuating this, necessarily)
2) Trust reddit users with the power to promote maps at all, because they know nothing and can't be reliable for picking good maps
I'll give it a try, but I would hate to see it actually gain any influence in tournaments. In all honestly I think Uncanny Valley has a ton of problems and should not be used in the playhem tournament without making changes- and these are balance changes, not just map design questions which can be argued.
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On August 25 2012 00:08 OxyGenesis wrote:Show nested quote +On August 24 2012 23:30 Aunvilgod wrote:
I did post my maps on reddit. The lack of actually useful comments made me stop it. One half call the map horrible because the 3rd was too easy, the other half called it horrible because it was too hard.
According to the exposure, I think there are plenty enough maps out there to be used in tournaments. Its up to the organizers to use them. I agree that reddit can be pretty bipolar in that way but you soon learn to reject the bad comments and embrace the good. No player will ever be impartial. The vast majority of maps that get created never get any exposure beyond the TL Mapping forum. When you ask the average joe starcraft watcher which maps they would like to see in future tournaments they only ever reply with GSL maps because that's all they ever see. They have no idea of the breadth of maps out there and with no desire from the community, the tournaments don't have much incentive to pick new maps up. Could we be doing more to push tournaments to use new maps? Yes, absolutely. But putting our maps up on reddit is a small thing that we can do that could help a lot. Lets not forget that a lot of tournament organisers browse reddit. How many browse the TL mapping forum?
If tournament organizers need new maps the first maps they look at are the ones of GSL and the ladder. Then they go to ESV. THEN they look into the forums and the last thing they do is to check reddit. You have to remember that they don´t randomly browse reddit, see a new map and be like "oh that looks nice, lets use it". The problem is NOT that our maps do not get enough exposure, the problem is that organizers do not WANT to use new maps.
On August 25 2012 00:33 monitor wrote:
I think its cool that it gives the map more exposure, but the last things I would ever do when it comes to mapmaking are-
1) make changes based on what random people say (not you are insinuating this, necessarily)
2) Trust reddit users with the power to promote maps at all, because they know nothing and can't be reliable for picking good maps
I'll give it a try, but I would hate to see it actually gain any influence in tournaments. In all honestly I think Uncanny Valley has a ton of problems and should not be used in the playhem tournament without making changes- and these are balance changes, not just map design questions which can be argued.
May I ask what these obvious balance flaws are?
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On August 25 2012 00:33 monitor wrote:
I think its cool that it gives the map more exposure, but the last things I would ever do when it comes to mapmaking are-
1) make changes based on what random people say (not you are insinuating this, necessarily)
2) Trust reddit users with the power to promote maps at all, because they know nothing and can't be reliable for picking good maps
I'll give it a try, but I would hate to see it actually gain any influence in tournaments. In all honestly I think Uncanny Valley has a ton of problems and should not be used in the playhem tournament without making changes- and these are balance changes, not just map design questions which can be argued.
I'm not suggesting for a second that we actually pay attention to what reddit users think of our maps. The more I learn about map making, the more I realise that a lot of the feedback I receive should be disregarded. I'm also not saying that reddit should be more involved with the picking of maps for tournaments, as with any large group of people they are largely influenced by external forces and cannot be trusted to make impartial decisions. I am proposing this mainly as an exercise in promotion and exposure, the community is clearly hungry for new maps and we are missing a trick if don't use that.
As for Uncanny Valley, I value your feedback monitor amongst the highest in the community. Your comments are always incredibly insightful and so would love to hear what you have to say either via PM/skype or on the Uncanny Valley thread.
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i am not saying that mappers get too much attention, but i feel like there is an overproduction already in the standard to sub-standard range. If the overproduction now feeds into an "over-promotion", we might assume that there will be even more low quality discussion on maps. Sub-standard attention for standard maps does not help map making at all.
I do not want to sound elitist our talk down any maps or chances that they get played/seen/discussed. Just an observation.
What I would like to see is in depth reviews from all kind of experts. For me an expert is not necessarily a mapper or (pro)player, but someone (where ever he/she comes from) who puts a lot of work in trying to communicate his thoughts on a map, explain the reasoning behind liking a map or not and so on.
put more work in fewer maps, throw away more ideas, discuss and play stuff thoroughly and hope some more people are into quality and support your ideas. They are not only out there, they are also here, I assume.
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On August 25 2012 00:35 Aunvilgod wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2012 00:08 OxyGenesis wrote:On August 24 2012 23:30 Aunvilgod wrote:
I did post my maps on reddit. The lack of actually useful comments made me stop it. One half call the map horrible because the 3rd was too easy, the other half called it horrible because it was too hard.
According to the exposure, I think there are plenty enough maps out there to be used in tournaments. Its up to the organizers to use them. I agree that reddit can be pretty bipolar in that way but you soon learn to reject the bad comments and embrace the good. No player will ever be impartial. The vast majority of maps that get created never get any exposure beyond the TL Mapping forum. When you ask the average joe starcraft watcher which maps they would like to see in future tournaments they only ever reply with GSL maps because that's all they ever see. They have no idea of the breadth of maps out there and with no desire from the community, the tournaments don't have much incentive to pick new maps up. Could we be doing more to push tournaments to use new maps? Yes, absolutely. But putting our maps up on reddit is a small thing that we can do that could help a lot. Lets not forget that a lot of tournament organisers browse reddit. How many browse the TL mapping forum? If tournament organizers need new maps the first maps they look at are the ones of GSL and the ladder. Then they go to ESV. THEN they look into the forums and the last thing they do is to check reddit. You have to remember that they don´t randomly browse reddit, see a new map and be like "oh that looks nice, lets use it". The problem is NOT that our maps do not get enough exposure, the problem is that organizers do not WANT to use new maps. Show nested quote +On August 25 2012 00:33 monitor wrote:
I think its cool that it gives the map more exposure, but the last things I would ever do when it comes to mapmaking are-
1) make changes based on what random people say (not you are insinuating this, necessarily)
2) Trust reddit users with the power to promote maps at all, because they know nothing and can't be reliable for picking good maps
I'll give it a try, but I would hate to see it actually gain any influence in tournaments. In all honestly I think Uncanny Valley has a ton of problems and should not be used in the playhem tournament without making changes- and these are balance changes, not just map design questions which can be argued. May I ask what these obvious balance flaws are?
I guess I exaggerated that there were "tons", but there are a few (and btw I didn't say obvious). Anyway, I'll comment on the thread.
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We need to show we exist.
Also please post pretty maps ; it'll probably be the only thing looked at. (I think I win at this gameplay/aethetics ratio thing  )
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Reddit posts' popularity can have a snowball effect due to mob mentality or "group think".
If the first few commenters on the thread make negative remarks, there's a much stronger chance of that thread "failing" than if those first few comments are positive.
@ posting the maps on reddit, I think it could be a good idea. They may get a little annoyed at us if we are posting every map there as it will get a tad spammy, but that's probably better than getting ignored which is basically the current situation. And even if they are annoyed at us, all that really matters is if a tournament organizer sees the maps and starts using them.
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honestly everyone from TL should go start posting stuff on reddit and set the standards for good posting, becuz a few of us posting good stuff is not really enough to change the shittiness of most of reddit atm
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On August 25 2012 01:18 ArcticRaven wrote:We need to show we exist. Also please post pretty maps ; it'll probably be the only thing looked at. (I think I win at this gameplay/aethetics ratio thing )
As superficial as this might be I think this really needs to be stressed. Though mappers are naturally more concerned with how the map plays, many people will simply ignore a map if it doesn't have good aesthetics. It can have all the personality, but if it isn't attractive people won't give it a second look. If you look at all the maps made by the Crux team, not only do they play well, but they are all stunningly beautiful. I don't think it's a coincidence that this is the case. And if you look at the one foreign map that made it into the GSL, Cloud Kingdom, it shares the same pattern. Perhaps the big map teams could take requests for decent maps to have their aesthetics improved. Or maybe there could be a separate set of mapmakers who focus on aesthetics more so than map layouts (the two roles are after all quite strikingly different). I think it would be terribly unfortunate if the best maps were never played or appreciated, simply because they lacked aesthetics.
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On August 25 2012 18:12 XenoX101 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2012 01:18 ArcticRaven wrote:We need to show we exist. Also please post pretty maps ; it'll probably be the only thing looked at. (I think I win at this gameplay/aethetics ratio thing ) As superficial as this might be I think this really needs to be stressed. Though mappers are naturally more concerned with how the map plays, many people will simply ignore a map if it doesn't have good aesthetics. It can have all the personality, but if it isn't attractive people won't give it a second look. If you look at all the maps made by the Crux team, not only do they play well, but they are all stunningly beautiful. I don't think it's a coincidence that this is the case. And if you look at the one foreign map that made it into the GSL, Cloud Kingdom, it shares the same pattern. Perhaps the big map teams could take requests for decent maps to have their aesthetics improved. Or maybe there could be a separate set of mapmakers who focus on aesthetics more so than map layouts (the two roles are after all quite strikingly different). I think it would be terribly unfortunate if the best maps were never played or appreciated, simply because they lacked aesthetics.
From what I have seen maps with decent aesthetics have not had a worse response than not-so-pretty ones. After all you usually only look at the overview of the map on reddit and random people are not that good at judging how "pretty" a map is at the first glimpse. They care more about the colours and brightness.
From what I can tell the really good maps usually have great aesthetics as well.
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If you put things on reddit, you might as well put them on 4chan.
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The number of retarded comments in that reddit thead is really hurting my eyes... and my soul
on the other hand, its not a bad way to get some exposure
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On August 25 2012 18:12 XenoX101 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2012 01:18 ArcticRaven wrote:We need to show we exist. Also please post pretty maps ; it'll probably be the only thing looked at. (I think I win at this gameplay/aethetics ratio thing ) As superficial as this might be I think this really needs to be stressed. Though mappers are naturally more concerned with how the map plays, many people will simply ignore a map if it doesn't have good aesthetics. It can have all the personality, but if it isn't attractive people won't give it a second look. If you look at all the maps made by the Crux team, not only do they play well, but they are all stunningly beautiful. I don't think it's a coincidence that this is the case. And if you look at the one foreign map that made it into the GSL, Cloud Kingdom, it shares the same pattern. Perhaps the big map teams could take requests for decent maps to have their aesthetics improved. Or maybe there could be a separate set of mapmakers who focus on aesthetics more so than map layouts (the two roles are after all quite strikingly different). I think it would be terribly unfortunate if the best maps were never played or appreciated, simply because they lacked aesthetics.
Actually... most people thing Atlantis Spaceship looks terrible and Cloud Kingdom is dark and somewhat messy in areas- I wouldn't say people think they are "stunningly beautiful". Ohana is also a foreign map in the GSL. What is a map that is stunningly beautiful? BelShir Beach. But it sucked so bad. Never prioritize aesthetics over gameplay, regardless of whether or not people will ignore it or not. I wouldn't mind a dedicated person doing aesthetics though :p
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I agree w/ monitor, Atlantis Spaceship and Cloud Kingdom are pretty middle-of-the-road aesthetics-wise (not saying my maps' aesthetics are good at all, I think they are also mediocre, but I have seen lots of maps that look better than those 2). CK has a great color scheme and lighting, and the doodads are solid, but the texturing is kind of bad/doesn't make sense tbh (you have zul'kadas tiles (or w/e the name is) for 2 feet, then a different kind of tile for another 2 feet, then cracked ground for 2 feet, and it's like what?). As far as AS goes, a lot of people would argue that it isn't a good map period (I know Artosis says it's imbalanced, and he's certainly not the first person of clout to say so).
I think a dedicated aesthetics person(s) would be great. Which is basically one of the benefits you get from being in a mapmaking team. Hell, why don't some of us just start another map team or two? It's not like you need money or anything special to do it other than a few decent mapmakers whose strengths balance each other. Combining our efforts together we would probably be a lot more likely to get something into a major tourney.
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On August 26 2012 20:26 Fatam wrote:
I agree w/ monitor, Atlantis Spaceship and Cloud Kingdom are pretty middle-of-the-road aesthetics-wise (not saying my maps' aesthetics are good at all, I think they are also mediocre, but I have seen lots of maps that look better than those 2). CK has a great color scheme and lighting, and the doodads are solid, but the texturing is kind of bad/doesn't make sense tbh (you have zul'kadas tiles (or w/e the name is) for 2 feet, then a different kind of tile for another 2 feet, then cracked ground for 2 feet, and it's like what?).
I think a dedicated aesthetics person(s) would be great. Which is basically one of the benefits you get from being in a mapmaking team. Hell, why don't some of us just start another map team or two? It's not like you need money or anything special to do it other than a few decent mapmakers whose strengths balance each other. Combining our efforts together we would probably be a lot more likely to get something into a major tourney.
Cloud Kingdom is fucking awesome but people don´t like dark maps. The usage of some of the doodads is really stunning.
I would actually not mind to do only aesthetics. If you have good maps and don´t want or cant do the texturing I might do the aesthetics. Don´t expect deadlines or anything like that though.
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On August 26 2012 20:30 Aunvilgod wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2012 20:26 Fatam wrote:
I agree w/ monitor, Atlantis Spaceship and Cloud Kingdom are pretty middle-of-the-road aesthetics-wise (not saying my maps' aesthetics are good at all, I think they are also mediocre, but I have seen lots of maps that look better than those 2). CK has a great color scheme and lighting, and the doodads are solid, but the texturing is kind of bad/doesn't make sense tbh (you have zul'kadas tiles (or w/e the name is) for 2 feet, then a different kind of tile for another 2 feet, then cracked ground for 2 feet, and it's like what?).
I think a dedicated aesthetics person(s) would be great. Which is basically one of the benefits you get from being in a mapmaking team. Hell, why don't some of us just start another map team or two? It's not like you need money or anything special to do it other than a few decent mapmakers whose strengths balance each other. Combining our efforts together we would probably be a lot more likely to get something into a major tourney. Cloud Kingdom is fucking awesome but people don´t like dark maps. The usage of some of the doodads is really stunning. I would actually not mind to do only aesthetics. If you have good maps and don´t want or cant do the texturing I might do the aesthetics. Don´t expect deadlines or anything like that though.
As much as I love CK, look at the texturing and you will see what they mean. The tiles just don't make much sense
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On August 26 2012 20:57 ArcticRaven wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2012 20:30 Aunvilgod wrote:On August 26 2012 20:26 Fatam wrote:
I agree w/ monitor, Atlantis Spaceship and Cloud Kingdom are pretty middle-of-the-road aesthetics-wise (not saying my maps' aesthetics are good at all, I think they are also mediocre, but I have seen lots of maps that look better than those 2). CK has a great color scheme and lighting, and the doodads are solid, but the texturing is kind of bad/doesn't make sense tbh (you have zul'kadas tiles (or w/e the name is) for 2 feet, then a different kind of tile for another 2 feet, then cracked ground for 2 feet, and it's like what?).
I think a dedicated aesthetics person(s) would be great. Which is basically one of the benefits you get from being in a mapmaking team. Hell, why don't some of us just start another map team or two? It's not like you need money or anything special to do it other than a few decent mapmakers whose strengths balance each other. Combining our efforts together we would probably be a lot more likely to get something into a major tourney. Cloud Kingdom is fucking awesome but people don´t like dark maps. The usage of some of the doodads is really stunning. I would actually not mind to do only aesthetics. If you have good maps and don´t want or cant do the texturing I might do the aesthetics. Don´t expect deadlines or anything like that though. As much as I love CK, look at the texturing and you will see what they mean. The tiles just don't make much sense
That does not interfere with the overall quality, in my eyes. It is rather a matter of taste.
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The best way to get your maps out there and have real discussion [imo] is to encourage Team Liquid to do another TLMC. The last one ended around December IIRC, and the ladder pool and most tournaments map pools haven't really changed since adding maps like Cloud Kingdom/Ohana, other than the GSL throwing in some of the newer ESV maps.
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On August 25 2012 01:04 Samro225am wrote:
i am not saying that mappers get too much attention, but i feel like there is an overproduction already in the standard to sub-standard range. If the overproduction now feeds into an "over-promotion", we might assume that there will be even more low quality discussion on maps. Sub-standard attention for standard maps does not help map making at all.
I do not want to sound elitist our talk down any maps or chances that they get played/seen/discussed. Just an observation.
What I would like to see is in depth reviews from all kind of experts. For me an expert is not necessarily a mapper or (pro)player, but someone (where ever he/she comes from) who puts a lot of work in trying to communicate his thoughts on a map, explain the reasoning behind liking a map or not and so on.
put more work in fewer maps, throw away more ideas, discuss and play stuff thoroughly and hope some more people are into quality and support your ideas. They are not only out there, they are also here, I assume.
I agree with this completely, from the standpoint of how we, as mappers, should feel about ourselves, and what we should aspire to.
However.
Exposure by force of numbers can only be a good thing for awareness, which is really what we're talking about at this stage. I can see two easy possibilities resulting from an influx of mapping awareness on reddit.
1. (indistinct) A lot of people will begin wanting map rotations and custom map exposure in a concrete way. "There are these cool maps that could replace ladder maps right now!" Whether this translates into a movement that gets heard, who knows, but at least there will be more people serious about the idea of community mapping.
2. You will have a lot of testers at your disposal. This never took of on TL because all our masters players are a bunch of sheep who want to win on ladder, not investigate the potential of maps, and we are eclipsed by streams and tournaments and all the other content. It seems like the "can do" community spirit of reddit would be perfect -- if it caught on -- to provide that testing group we never kindled here.
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On August 30 2012 00:33 EatThePath wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2012 01:04 Samro225am wrote:
i am not saying that mappers get too much attention, but i feel like there is an overproduction already in the standard to sub-standard range. If the overproduction now feeds into an "over-promotion", we might assume that there will be even more low quality discussion on maps. Sub-standard attention for standard maps does not help map making at all.
I do not want to sound elitist our talk down any maps or chances that they get played/seen/discussed. Just an observation.
What I would like to see is in depth reviews from all kind of experts. For me an expert is not necessarily a mapper or (pro)player, but someone (where ever he/she comes from) who puts a lot of work in trying to communicate his thoughts on a map, explain the reasoning behind liking a map or not and so on.
put more work in fewer maps, throw away more ideas, discuss and play stuff thoroughly and hope some more people are into quality and support your ideas. They are not only out there, they are also here, I assume. I agree with this completely, from the standpoint of how we, as mappers, should feel about ourselves, and what we should aspire to. However. Exposure by force of numbers can only be a good thing for awareness, which is really what we're talking about at this stage. I can see two easy possibilities resulting from an influx of mapping awareness on reddit. 1. (indistinct) A lot of people will begin wanting map rotations and custom map exposure in a concrete way. "There are these cool maps that could replace ladder maps right now!" Whether this translates into a movement that gets heard, who knows, but at least there will be more people serious about the idea of community mapping. 2. You will have a lot of testers at your disposal. This never took of on TL because all our masters players are a bunch of sheep who want to win on ladder, not investigate the potential of maps, and we are eclipsed by streams and tournaments and all the other content. It seems like the "can do" community spirit of reddit would be perfect -- if it caught on -- to provide that testing group we never kindled here.
picking up on your attempt finding something positive in this format, I want to put forward an idea. Everybody choose his "best" map for testing and provide one overview and one aesthetic image (if really needed) and then do a group post that promotes the idea of testing. Maybe one could get a number of people who would agree to play such a "pool" of maps.
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Glad to see you active, samro
I'd be glad to participate in it.
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EPT
