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Helping Melee Maps Grow
Recently Blizzard Entertainment watched a live interview that involved Jojo (SC2News) and I (Vod Here), where we talked about Ohana, today's map-making, and the future of it all. Because they took notice, I felt like it was time for me to take my chances and start talking to Blizzard directly about the Map Community. I addressed some concerns that involved lack of map exposure, the difficulty of finding play testers, and just the overall lack of support and creativity.
Via e-mail, their response was simple:
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/EM9bB.jpg)
Over the last two years we've come to realize that battle.net 0.2 could be the primary cause for leaving community melee maps in the dark, as the system does not currently expose them the way they potentially could, or should.
Since the release of Wings of Liberty, the number of map makers has gone from dozens to just a handful. Why? Because the map community receives zero attention. About a year ago, the mapping community started to receive some spotlight when Mr.Bitter casted Map of the Month and even brought ESL into the picture. Unfortunately, this didn't last very long and it brought little to no attention to the bigger problems that we mappers still face today.
And then Blizzard finally stepped in and brought us a little announcement: The TeamLiquid Map Contest.
I won't go into details about it, but during the TLMC I had a chance to talk to Plexa, who helped host the TLMC, and this is what he said about the map community:
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/vDjTR.jpg)
...which made the TLMC all the more popular! The only reason maps like Cloud Kingdom, Korhal, or Ohana even became globally popular was because of the TLMC, which was hosted by Teamliquid. Map of the Month has gone nowhere because it's hosted by map-makers (I bet if it was hosted by TL, it would make a bigger difference). More or less, if you go back and read the numerous comments in the TLMC threads, you'll notice that most posters are implying that they had no idea these maps even existed, because there is no exposure! Nobody knows about them.
Monitor from ESV also states:
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/DDyYi.jpg)
And words from MorroW himself:
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/A1GnI.jpg)
(source: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=184052)
Here's a few more quotes to help explain the lack of exposure for map makers:
+ Show Spoiler +
I could go on but this doesn't need a massive explanation. This is more of a post to gather the community together and see what we can do to unify the relationship between Players, spectators, organizers and casters with the mapping community. The mapping community was popular in brood war (at least for a while), and it should be an important element in StarCraft II.
The TLMC was a clutch hit and opened the doors to new possibilities in map-making, but there is one problem: One TLMC is not enough! There needs to be more.
Community map exposure is necessary to not only encourage the current mappers to keep working, but to present the possibilities to the people who want to be a map maker themselves. As of right now, finding play testers is difficult, and getting a map anywhere is near impossible unless an e-sport personality can spotlight it (slim chance of this happening). Exposure is what we lack the most, and it frustrates us time and time again.
What I will do is gather as much feedback in this thread as possible and forward it to Blizzard Entertainment directly via e-mail, and see what they say. More or less, I feel we could do them a favor and help them out by providing our thoughts and opinions about how to help the mapping community grow more and how we can honor the work that they do, from new mappers to the veteran alike.
So, teamliquid community members, here are a few general questions I would appreciate answers to, and something I'm sure would help blizzard in some way, shape or form. Help us mappers give you a better gaming experience!
Questions for the community:
1) Why do you feel community melee maps are often being ignored or left in the dark?
2) Do you want to see more new community maps in competitive play?
3) Would playing on new maps make the game more fun for you?
(optional): 4) If you could present one idea to help the StarCraft community become more involved with the mapping community, what would it be? (ex: more map contests)
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On June 02 2012 09:07 IronManSC wrote:
1) Why do you feel community melee maps are often being ignored or left in the dark?
Very few people actually want to play on something new. I have a hard time even getting my own friends to test my maps. I know quite a few players who are high Masters, and they refuse to play on new maps because they feel it is beneath them. These are the kinds of players who could provide useful games on new maps, but they only play on ladder maps, as if another game on Antiga Shipyard will bring their play to a new level.
On June 02 2012 09:07 IronManSC wrote:
(optional): 4) If you could present one idea to help the StarCraft community become more involved with the mapping community, what would it be? (ex: more map contests)
I would like to see more tournaments that encourage play on new maps. Map contests are worthless unless you can actually run some real games on the maps.
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Glad you are bringing attention to this Ironman, its definitely an issue. I think it should be spotlighted to raise awareness as it affects the whole community!! Its the difference between mapmakers quitting or not~
1) Why do you feel community melee maps are often being ignored or left in the dark?
Firstly because the map scene has been controlled heavily by the koreans in the GSL up until now. Only recently have things started changing.
One strange paradox is that almost all of the maps until the past few months have been very very similar, and have thus lost the community's interest a little bit. However now its hard to make creative and new stuff because its so risky that no tournament wants to use it. And no, I'm not talking about something like Frigid Pass. I'm talking really innovative stuff that bring new dynamics to the game and change MUs drastically.
(optional): 4) If you could present one idea to help the StarCraft community become more involved with the mapping community, what would it be? (ex: more map contests)
-Tournament support for new maps
-More contests for getting maps into tournaments
-Publicity from TL, Blizzard, and other organizations
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1) Why do you feel community melee maps are often being ignored or left in the dark?
Many reasons. Lack of support from Blizzard, tournaments, e-sports celebrities, etc. Bad custom game system on Battle.net. The hyper-competitive nature of Starcraft and the limited amount of time people have to play/practice. More I can't think of right now.
2) Do you want to see more new community maps in competitive play?
Absolutely yes!
3) Would playing on new maps make the game more fun for you?
Yes. I play my own maps probably too much.
(optional): 4) If you could present one idea to help the StarCraft community become more involved with the mapping community, what would it be? (ex: more map contests)
Blizzard can create a "future map pool". They don't need to make any promises or commitments at first at the very least. Just post on their website a number of maps that have potential to become ladder maps. If people think there is a chance that a map will be introduced in the future they will play it. It plays to the hyper-competitive nature, people can get an edge if they are ahead on new maps first. When Blizzard announces new maps people jump all over them. Create polls, and perhaps get people to submit replays somehow to get gameplay data. All of this can be done "outside" the game i.e. no Battle.net changes.
Also, I think Blizzard is all for experimentation in maps. Have you seen some of the maps they put out? E.G. Arid Plateau.
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if pros feel like their time is too important to work with map makers, then map makers should just train and get a high skill/knowlage of sc2 themselfs. problem solved. exept the publicity thing, but atm with vetoes i can play mainly only community maps in the ladder so its not that bad.
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On June 02 2012 13:56 Sea_Food wrote:
if pros feel like their time is too important to work with map makers, then map makers should just train and get a high skill/knowlage of sc2 themselfs. problem solved. exept the publicity thing, but atm with vetoes i can play mainly only community maps in the ladder so its not that bad.
I think it's unrealistic to expect map makers to have enough time to both make maps and practice SC2 enough to achieve a high level of play.
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Blizzard really has most of the power when it comes to deciding what maps most SC2 players (ladder) will play on.
I think most competitive players are much more resistant to change (rightfully so, it takes time and practice to learn a new map) Therefore, the best way to get players more into community maps would be through the arcade system -
The feature I would most like to see would be a matchmaking system where players could play on random community maps, but still be matched using an MMR. This way, the system could choose a random map, then find two evenly matched players. It would be like ladder, but less competitive and with an enormous map pool. The system could even pick higher rated maps more often.
Since this is something the community doesn't have the power to do, contests would provide great motivation to mappers - winning maps being used in a tournament. I would also like to note that the 3v3, and 4v4 map pools on ladder have not been updated since season 3, and 2v2 has not been updated since season 4.
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On June 02 2012 09:07 IronManSC wrote:
1) Why do you feel community melee maps are often being ignored or left in the dark?
2) Do you want to see more new community maps in competitive play?
3) Would playing on new maps make the game more fun for you?
(optional): 4) If you could present one idea to help the StarCraft community become more involved with the mapping community, what would it be? (ex: more map contests)
1. I think that community melee maps are often left in the dark for a variety of reason including that there are basically tons of them. It may not seem like it to you, but it is hard it keep up with all of the maps that are posted on here, at least for me a casual player that loves new maps and designs. Also, the game and the maps are still evolving, so it is really hard to know what is good, not good, balanced or not, as if this time. We just have to see something, try it, and hope we enjoy it. I know IronMan that you and I have talked a bit about maps, also there is a bit of love from shows here and there, but overall I think it would be good to get a show or something going with mapmakers and talking maps, but also including a pro player, get another opinion and point of view on. I think something like that would help a mapper-type of show, not only in popularity, but also in discussion.
Add this all to the fact that most people are so intimidated by the Galaxy Editor in general that most people never even open the thing. When we get newer maps that might be interesting, but don't look that nice due to lack of editor experience, many people never even give them a chance and poo poo them from the first pic.
On top of all this...to the normal, casual player and TL user, we rarely see much that captures our attention in the maps that are coming out. This is one reason I am a huge fan of maps by Superouman. His maps always are interesting looking as well as in play. What this means though may be that people, mappers and the like, are just not thinking as outside the box or creatively as they could be. It is a problem though because when people build strange or new maps, it usually means that they are not going to get attention from the pro scene much at all, so it seems like a double-edged sword.
Also...cross-region posting is huge. I only have NA, so I hate it when I can't play on a map that is only posted in KR or EU. It is just frustrating and I tend to forget that map if I can't play it when I try.
Overall though, I think that part of the problem is just simply that mappers don't always understand players/fans and players/fans don't always understand mappers. It is like two completely separate halves of the community and neither side seems to know as much about the other. Yeah, there are a couple of players that cross-over into mapping and a couple of mappers that are high-level players, but to sum it all up, it seems like there is a divide between the two halves and we just don't understand what the other does most of the time. At least that is how it seems to me.
2. As for this question, I just want to see good maps and good games as a spectator. I personally don't give a rats ass as to who made them as long as they are interesting to play and/or to watch. That being said, if the maps are community made and end up with a ladder or Blizzard edition, I am more likely to use those in customs just because I want to support the community a bit, not that playing them really does a ton of help to that regard.
3. Yes, I love playing on new maps. I play a ton of customs with friends and against AIs or whatnot just for fun and practice, so I usually try to get at least one or two new maps played per session.
4. I have a couple of ideas, but I am not sure how plausible they might be. First of all, a show/podcast ideas like I mentioned above. Something like the mappers show you guys do, but also with more of a player personality on it as well. I would like someone with a different point of view on their to liven up the conversation and give a different point of view on the discussions.
Also, I have seen a few attempts by yourself and others at a Galaxy Editor tutorial type of thing, but I think there are a ton of places still to go with that. Maybe a cool interactive class/video type of thing so that instead of just watching, you are participating in learning how to make maps.
Some kind of newsletter maybe...something to compile the new maps, ideas, and changes into a simple, fun, easy to swallow pill for the casual reader/player to swallow. Like if once a week there was something like the "Pony Tales" type of download that would talk about things, showcase a few new maps to try out, talk about map features and whatnot. Maybe a "This Week in StarCraft 2: Mappers Edition."
Small daily tourneys, for non-pro players, like Z33k dailies or something like that, which would be set into seasons. each month it has a new map pool of 5 maps or whatever, all-community driven maps. This would give people some time to practice them and keep working with them, plus, since it is not aimed toward pro-players who just complain that they are not the maps they need to practice on, it may still go over well with amateurs that are just trying to play a bit competitively.
I would like to see more discussion about the gameplay value of maps, as opposed to balance or aesthetics. What I mean by this is that it seems to me, I might be wrong, that people complain too much in the map threads about features being slightly imba for a race or another instead and mappers seem to cater to that. I would like to see more discussions about setting up maps and bases to try to force certain situations in games or to add features with the thought of "Well, in certain late-game scenarios, this cliff right here could be used to drop tanks and zone with with..." That might be simplifying it a bit, but I think that a majority of the "community" are casual fans and players who love to watch the game as well as play the game. If we think about the spectator aspect more as well as pushing the players into certain things, it may add some attention.
Eh...maybe not the best ideas, but still some food for thought. Mind you, I made maps back in BW, but have only opened the SC2 GE once or twice, so I really am speaking only from my point of view that I see about the mappers, who I love and respect a ton. If I am completely off-base on something, I apologize and feel free to inform me.
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BTW, has anyone been watching Doa's show Cartographer, where he talks with pros about maps? I don't think that show gets enough attention, even from the map making community.
Will be back to post more in detail about all this, though.
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On June 02 2012 09:07 IronManSC wrote:
Questions for the community:
1) Why do you feel community melee maps are often being ignored or left in the dark?
2) Do you want to see more new community maps in competitive play?
3) Would playing on new maps make the game more fun for you?
(optional): 4) If you could present one idea to help the StarCraft community become more involved with the mapping community, what would it be? (ex: more map contests)
1) Oversaturation. I can understand players being pissed if they have to practise too many different maps. GSL and the money tournaments are not the place to go for new community maps. What I am looking for is unranked match making. Blizzard could implement a ton of stuff there, hardly anybody would complain.
2) Yes, of course, but that is not necessarily possible. The current system (GOM pretty much decides about what maps are to be used at the time) is fine to me. More maps would, like I said, be too much for the players.
What we could do is to make tournaments with unnkown, random maps. Players would have to have just basic skill. Fuck yeah I would watch that!
3) Yes. I am much faster tired of a map than the ladder changes. Again, here could the unranked matchmaking be helping a lot. Blizzard could just throw stuff in here.
4) The random, unknown map tournament I just fabulized (I hope that is a word) about. As a viewer I am incredibly tired of the already existing maps. I can´t see Antiga anymore. I HATE dual sight. Because I have seen so many different games on them they all mix up to an undefined mass. Mess.
If we could get any kind of SC "celebrity" (I am looking at you, Morrow) to cast a weekly tournament for 100$ and are able to provide the community with new content I am pretty sure we could attract a ton of viewers. If you analyze the map a little bit beforehand you have your exposure right there.
Honestly, I would even feel spoiled if I gained a lot of attention for my maps. Its a hobby, not work. I enjoy it, even if nobody ever looks at my maps.
On June 02 2012 17:41 Gfire wrote:
BTW, has anyone been watching Doa's show Cartographer, where he talks with pros about maps? I don't think that show gets enough attention, even from the map making community.
Will be back to post more in detail about all this, though.
No, never heard about it. When is it, where can I watch VODs?
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A major change that would be nice would be to let the author view all the games played on their map via server-side stored replays. I dont hold out much hope for this though. Perhaps if each replay was deleted after a week, giving you time to download it if you want
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1) Why do you feel community melee maps are often being ignored or left in the dark?
It's probably not really a high priority for leagues, since getting new maps and making sure they are good is a tough process, and requires a good system. Leagues are still figuring other stuff out, and map pool is just one piece. Typically, though, there are major problems with tournament map pools and even pressure from pros not to switch maps so much (I think the problem here is more about having so many different maps from all the different tournaments and not that learning a new map is too difficult, just perhaps not worth it for just one league.) It makes sense that there would be leaders of the map pool (GSL,) and other tournaments would mostly follow that with some delay. That's good for the consistency, but we don't have many opportunities to make maps for GSL, as they still use the maps from the same guys they always have. Getting a map onto ladder is the best thing anyway, as all the leagues can grab it easily and everyone can play it on ladder.
I think the TLMC was a great contest, and Blizzard took a good number of maps from it. The problem is that there hasn't been another one. It's okay that Blizzard took a long time to get the maps into the ladder, of course testing and giving a map time to have changes made is important, but that doesn't mean you can't get started looking for more maps before those ones are implemented, if it takes that long.
The other thing is that there just aren't that many times maps are switched out, so it's actually hard to say where everything is going. I want to see what maps Blizzard is adding in season 8. Maybe we need maps switched out more often. BW had a great system for implementing new maps in Korea, and I think we can use that as a benchmark. Recent years haven't had too many maps because they haven't had many tournaments, but for instance in 2008 they had around 30 maps in korean leagues. We could say that in SC2 we should be adding a new map, somewhere in big tournaments worldwide, on average every two weeks, which is more than we're doing right now, probably by quite a lot. Players probably shouldn't complain and we should implement more new maps.
But we can't just throw maps and tournaments and hope they use them. I mean, it would be bad if they did use them. There needs to be a good system for testing them.
2) Do you want to see more new community maps in competitive play?
Absolutely, yes.
3) Would playing on new maps make the game more fun for you?
Yes, it certainly would.
(optional): 4) If you could present one idea to help the StarCraft community become more involved with the mapping community, what would it be? (ex: more map contests)
More contests, for sure. The TLMC had a lot of importance, and I wish they did like 3-4 each year. Maybe on average 1 community map per month coming from contests like that. Maybe we should have %50 maps from contests and %50 maps by other means, like from the same mappers GSL uses or Blizzard maps (and I think Blizzard should continue to make maps sometimes, as Blizzard maps really do set a lot of standards and have a mostly positive impact on mapping, unless it's so bad people just throw it out at once.)
I also wonder what will happen to all the korean BW mappers who make the current BW maps, if they will switch to SC2.
On June 02 2012 18:53 Aunvilgod wrote:Show nested quote +On June 02 2012 17:41 Gfire wrote:
BTW, has anyone been watching Doa's show Cartographer, where he talks with pros about maps? I don't think that show gets enough attention, even from the map making community.
Will be back to post more in detail about all this, though. No, never heard about it. When is it, where can I watch VODs?
I only saw the latest Vod on IPL's youtube, not sure where the others are, and this episode he didn't have pros due to availability issues, so he just had some masters players. Hopefully that doesn't become standard.
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To skip straight to number 4:
Blizzard has MVPs on the Battlenet forums. They have shown they are willing to imbue people with special permissions. Even if it's nothing too special for an MVP. I think Blizzard needs to hand the reigns over to select members of the mapping community. Even if it means that this council (made up of at least 1 person from each mapping team, and a neutral party) only get to pick one map per season, they need to let mappers put maps into the ladder.
The maps picked should be highly scrutinized by the community, by the council, and by Blizzard. But at the end of the day, we would have the creative maps being used competitively. If something goes wrong, they could always pull the plug, but I think they really need to try it.
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On June 03 2012 00:57 Chargelot wrote:
To skip straight to number 4:
Blizzard has MVPs on the Battlenet forums. They have shown they are willing to imbue people with special permissions. Even if it's nothing too special for an MVP. I think Blizzard needs to hand the reigns over to select members of the mapping community. Even if it means that this council (made up of at least 1 person from each mapping team, and a neutral party) only get to pick one map per season, they need to let mappers put maps into the ladder.
The maps picked should be highly scrutinized by the community, by the council, and by Blizzard. But at the end of the day, we would have the creative maps being used competitively. If something goes wrong, they could always pull the plug, but I think they really need to try it.
Oh yeah, it would be cool to have like a mapper's council who can represent all the teams and work with Blizzard.
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1) Why do you feel community melee maps are often being ignored or left in the dark?
There's little exposure aside from the Custom Map forum here, and even there maps will be posted that you can't play on (haven't been published, or are only published on some servers).
2) Do you want to see more new community maps in competitive play?
yes!
3) Would playing on new maps make the game more fun for you?
100%, I love playing on new maps. It gives me ideas for builds, for new maps, it helps starcraft become the intellectual powerhouse that I want it to be.
(optional): 4) If you could present one idea to help the StarCraft community become more involved with the mapping community, what would it be? (ex: more map contests)
I think we should have several different custom games with varying map pool sizes. One that has 6-8 maps that rotate every month (TL Maps of the Month), another that has 2-3 that rotate every week (TL Maps of the Week), so that you could have one place where you would consistently go to play/test upcoming maps. These maps would have to be constantly updated by somebody to include maps that were being posted here. I would set it up so that every Tuesday you pick the 2-3 maps from the forums from the previous week that have gotten the most attention (views/discussions/etc) and don't worry that much about quality. For Maps of the Month I would encourage something similar to the current MotM contest and put the top several maps in this pool (voted on by a select few individuals from the community, rotated each week as they currently are).
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what it boils down to is how much incentive you are giving people to play on your maps. how much + Show Spoiler + are you willing to throw at players? esv is fortunate with their sponsorship, and can hold korean weekly, where players can win a good sum of cash, but have to play on esv maps. tpw also has an agreement with nasl but i am unsure what their sponsorship situation is, if any. that leaves the rest of us pretty much nowhere.
sc2 players are a unique bunch. while many, many other games couldn't exist without community content, sc2 players have this blind faith in everything blizzard. blizzard gave its blessing to tl for its contest and now we're playing on those maps. what if there were no blizzard consent? would TL even ever held a contest for mappers? would blizzard have picked those maps if so?
many questions, very little answers.
right now, as far as exposure. the easiest way i can think of is a rotating map-of-the-day on the front page.
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1) Why do you feel community melee maps are often being ignored or left in the dark?
Because very few people tryed to make a map. How can you get involved in something you don't like/do ?
2) Do you want to see more new community maps in competitive play?
I would love to but it needs to be tryed on daily/weekly cup before big tournaments ( boring maps ( or with balance issues should be banned from big tournaments )
3) Would playing on new maps make the game more fun for you?
I would love to too but it's hard to play on a new map in custom game because you never play against someone with your level. As a gold player , playing against a master or against a bronze is not interesting for me 
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On June 02 2012 09:07 IronManSC wrote:
Questions for the community:
1) Why do you feel community melee maps are often being ignored or left in the dark?
2) Do you want to see more new community maps in competitive play?
3) Would playing on new maps make the game more fun for you?
(optional): 4) If you could present one idea to help the StarCraft community become more involved with the mapping community, what would it be? (ex: more map contests)
1. I don't know how to find them mostly on BNET. Whenever I want to play customs I just search ESV.
2. Yes - if they play out differently then maps currently in the pool. I don't see the point of switching to new maps that are effectively the same as old maps. It's the point monitor brings up though - now there's no incentive to make a map like this as no one will play it.
3. Yes - if it was different and I had seen some pro's play it so I knew good strategies to use.
My opinion is that it's the viewers who really benefit from seeing new maps in tournaments, as seeing different play styles is always fun and it gets tiring to see the same maps over and over (again relating to all the games being the same). For a pro player, I'd assume if there was one very well balanced map, they'd prefer it never changed so there's less to practice. So to me, it seems the people who should really encourage new maps are tournaments, as they should look to please the viewers. Also, when a tournament switches it's map pool, it forces the pros to play the new maps too (while pros playing new maps has no immediate bearing on the tournament map pools). It also exposes the map to new players, again something that pros switching has no immediate effect on.
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On June 02 2012 09:07 IronManSC wrote:
Questions for the community:
1) Why do you feel community melee maps are often being ignored or left in the dark?
It's too hard for a map to become part of a high level map pool, mostly because of having to learn new maps.
2) Do you want to see more new community maps in competitive play?
I feel this is really the question that doesn't need answering. I would say almost invariably that we all would like to see new maps in competitive play. There is a caveat to this though - the new maps have to be moderated in their quantity of course, as it is competitive play. A constantly shuffling map pool can distort the level of play we see on current maps, making it hard to know who's really the best. That said, our worry never really has been that Blizz puts out too many new ladder maps, has it?
3) Would playing on new maps make the game more fun for you?
Absolutely. I love seeing new venues to duke our stuff out on. Not to mention seeing all sorts of new maps with unique features inspires me to no end.
(optional): 4) If you could present one idea to help the StarCraft community become more involved with the mapping community, what would it be? (ex: more map contests)
Now see, this is difficult, I really have 2 ideas. I guess technically it's one though, because the first is a sort of side note - more contests akin to the Team Liquid Map Contest are needed. Ideally, I think having one TLMC per ladder season would be a great way to regularly shuffle in new maps.
The second idea is sort of in the same vein, but goes more with Blizz's UI changes to the game - have a Map of the Week(or month, w/e), which is showcased in the game like all the other announcements, and at the end of each season hold a vote to see which map which was shown over the season was the best, which Blizzard would then consider adding to next season's ladder.
Also as another side note/idea, having a separate section for melee maps under custom games would help to showcase them a lot, since they get buried under every UMS ever made.
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1) Why do you feel community melee maps are often being ignored or left in the dark?
Quite simply because there is no organised testing community. I spoke to Barrin about this about a year ago and had some ideas of how to get this kind of active community together where feedback is structured and the mapmaking process starts to belong to everyone, not just one maker (which needs to be a perfect maker if he lacks proper feedback, and those people often spend their talent elsewhere).
However, because I was asked to take the full responsibility over this kind of community I decided to decline. My real life situation took and takes enough of my time already and if I would take this task on me I would want it to be professional and cost more time than I currently have.
2) Do you want to see more new community maps in competitive play?
Well, yes, thats the whole purpose of a mapmaking community in the first place. The best thing about it is that if the community is large enough (and a 'collective brain' as was said) that the quality of the maps will exceed that of Blizzard made or individual made maps.
This is what a mapmaking community is going to be contributing to the professional level of esports, which is an awesome and unexplored (marketing) concept. Imagine this: soccer players cannot vote on what field of grass their teams are playing, but you can get a community to make the battlefield and vote for it!
That is a level of interaction with the (e)sport you want to watch that is not offered anywhere else at the moment and I am sure some sponsors could be found for it.
3) Would playing on new maps make the game more fun for you?
Yes, it is my firm belief that every new ladder season at least half of the maps in each pool (1v1 and 2v2) needs to be replaced with fresh meat. This gives new players, or players that have not participated for several seasons a chance to fight because the maps are new to everyone, not just them.
Another big reason is that it is just fun to watch pro's explore the new terrain on high end level and see how they exploit aspects of a map not seen before. You get that massive 'wow' in barcrafts like that, which is absolutely awesome.
4) If you could present one idea to help the StarCraft community become more involved with the mapping community, what would it be? (ex: more map contests)
- Blizzard should award at least one map made by the community to become part of the new season. The glory of seeing your (voted upon, or created) map is quite an award on it's own.
- Blizzard should award a 'mapmaker' portrait or unique unit skin to a winning mapmaker each season.
- A sponsor should give away some (slightly more valuable) gaming tools to the top (3-5) contributers of the mapmaking community.
- A sponsor should randomly elect active testers for an additional set of prices (lets say ~50 dollars or 40 euros worth of game-store money (which can be blizzard store or game-store cards for hardware).
What do the sponsors get out of this?
Important question that should not be overlooked: Sponsors that sponsored the winning map would get their logo permanently assigned to the map (on the loading screen, on the 'search for map' UI and perhaps even in the game itself). I can understand that people may not enjoy this commercialisation of the mapmaking community, but unfortunately this is the only way to get sponsors in.
Blizzard will get their own reward by just making their product more popular and selling more in their store.
Why do we need sponsors?
To pay the people who take a (full-time or part-time) job on managing the testing community, electing maps and making maps.
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I'm just a casual fan and I don't really play SC2 anymore, but I do enjoy watching it a lot. I like seeing new maps (which is why I visit this forum/thread to begin with) so I may be biased but I think you're pretty much spot on in the OP. As to your questions:
1) Partially, this is the design of both Blizzard's ingame UI as well as TL not giving enough love. I'll hold off on the Blizzard UI thing because the next patch is going to change it entirely, but TL could give a lot more attention to the mapmaking community (like spotlighting map of the month winners).
I also think a lot of tournaments ignore you as well. Every tournament organizer except Diamond in fact ^^.
2) Yes.
3) Doesn't apply to me since I don't play anymore really.
4) The people 'in charge' of the community need to give more attention to mapmakers. Like I mentioned before, this means tournaments need to change their map pools more (ESV does a great job at this from a fan POV, GSL/IPL as well but slightly less), as well as TL giving more love to map of the month winners. I'd suggest spotlighting the actual map thread that wins it instead of the contest thread to give it a bit of exposure. With a bit of luck you could get reddit behind the mapmakers' cause as well which would pressure tournament organisers a bit more.
Speaking of reddit, have you linked this thread on r/starcraft yet? Since you're asking questions for the community but the only people that will visit this thread are people interested in custom maps to begin with ^^;
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1) I think it's hard for some casual gamers to care about new maps. Why would I want to play Ohana before it's on ladder. I'm just low diamond. Sure my buddy and I might test out a new map just to give it a go. I even put together a few very poorly designed melee maps myself. But we aren't going to be playtesting it in a bo21 or anything, we dont' do that on any map. It's just hard overall to get a certain segment of gamers to go out and try something that will not directly benefit them (Ladder)
2) Short answer yes. But only if they are actually good maps. I could care less who created it. It comes down to the map itself, if blizzard makes the best maps (they don't, but if they did) i would want only blizz maps in ladder.
I think also most of the community just doesn't have the exposure because frankly the only place I ever see new maps is the Custom map forum here on TL. I go there once in a while to simply see the new creations. Beyond that I don't play them until they pop up on ladder, or I might try it out if I see it in GSL (atlantis Spaceship)
3) Short answer yes, to an extent. The thing is new/change isn't always better/more fun. There is also the timeframe to think of. I would absolutely hate to be trying to figure out the flow of a map every week. I think every 2 months it'd be ok for blizz to rotate 1-2 new maps into the pool, but any sooner and I would feel overwhelmed. I dont think the blizz map pool is too big, but it certainly can't be bigger. Hopefully we can get a core set of great maps.
4) I think more show matches, and just getting the popular teams in general playing the maps. If people saw EGIdra vs EGHuk on some random map no one has seen, people would go test it out. They would have very little incentive to play on an unknown map, but I think this would be ideal.. This clearly doesn't help the whole "not enough playtesters" which is literally my issue when I create a map.
But lets face it some maps just shouldn't be playtested because they are that poorly made.
What if TL would make it more of a front page thing for MotM? I mean just to highlight it, and get more of the daily visitors to see it. The more top of mind awareness the better.
This really goes back to my point 1 one, is that most people don't care until it's established. and I feel like this thread is trying to get more maps recognized in the first place. Most people bronze-Plat dont even think about the map in terms of strategy. I'm in diamond and I barely do except on some really obvious ones like Daybreak.
I guess my question is. Where is the incentive for players to get into the mapping process early?
Absolutely over the long wrong no one can argue it's not better for the community/scene overall. But that's like telling someone that paying their mortgage will help the neighborhood because values will stay high if you don't get foreclosed on. People only care about themselves in the short term. It's hard to get people to see the whole picture, let alone buy into it if it means no immediate reward for their investment (time/energy that could be simply playing maps that ARE in the current pool)
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The more feedback we get, the better, and the better info I can submit to Blizzard!
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1) Why do you feel community melee maps are often being ignored or left in the dark?
Firstly, there so many mappers i think, and so many maps being made. Unless you're get a special opportunity (eg Team Crux, ESV (korean weekly), TLPD), you'll never get your map played at the highest level. I don't really mind that, but the mappers themselves should go around promoting and spaming the chats too i think.
2) Do you want to see more new community maps in competitive play?
Blizzard should stop making maps, and let the community make them; do a competition every 2 months, pick one map per month basically to switch one of the ladder maps. If it's only one, it wouldnt be a big deal: if the map turns out to be good, you keep it, if not, you replace it! hurzzarh
3) Would playing on new maps make the game more fun for you?
for me, yes, but pros are playing for money, so you need to make the perfect map, which is hard since there's no exposure .. this is the vicious circle. honestly i dunno how to break this. Perhaps along with the map competition, theres a pro competition based on it.
(optional): 4) If you could present one idea to help the StarCraft community become more involved with the mapping community, what would it be? (ex: more map contests)
Already gave my answer.
So yeah.
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On June 05 2012 04:05 IronManSC wrote:
The more feedback we get, the better, and the better info I can submit to Blizzard!
I had an idea which I posted on the battlenet forums, I was trying to gain some attention for the 2v2, 3v3, and 4v4 map pools.
Blizzard could easily hold a map making contest for those map pools, which haven't been updated since season 3.
Now, before I get shot down with "No one cares" "team games aren't supposed to be balanced" and "The current map pool is fine", I'd just like to make the point that there is nothing to lose from doing something like that. It would actually greatly invigorate the map making community and give us something to strive for. I feel like a lot of people don't make maps because they feel they'll probably never get played on - here is a way to give great map makers the opportunity to get their maps play time. It could also serve as a beta test for future contests.
Maybe I'm barking up the wrong tree by harping about the team maps, but I just don't see any downsides to my proposal aside from the time and effort put in to it. If it fails miserably, its not like the 1v1 map pool is on the line.
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On June 05 2012 07:45 TheFish7 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 04:05 IronManSC wrote:
The more feedback we get, the better, and the better info I can submit to Blizzard! I had an idea which I posted on the battlenet forums, I was trying to gain some attention for the 2v2, 3v3, and 4v4 map pools. Blizzard could easily hold a map making contest for those map pools, which haven't been updated since season 3. Now, before I get shot down with "No one cares" "team games aren't supposed to be balanced" and "The current map pool is fine", I'd just like to make the point that there is nothing to lose from doing something like that. It would actually greatly invigorate the map making community and give us something to strive for. I feel like a lot of people don't make maps because they feel they'll probably never get played on - here is a way to give great map makers the opportunity to get their maps play time. It could also serve as a beta test for future contests. Maybe I'm barking up the wrong tree by harping about the team maps, but I just don't see any downsides to my proposal aside from the time and effort put in to it. If it fails miserably, its not like the 1v1 map pool is on the line.
I agree with the notion completely, and I think it is perhaps time to delve into team-maps, if only as an on-the-side thing. A large contest with sections for 1v1, 2v2, 3v3, and 4v4 would be awesome, actually, as it would have the usual 1v1 slugfest of maps, but also some really clever team map ideas people have got. We saw some of these in the TLMC, but since that was primarily a 1v1 map contest they never really got anywhere. I definitely think a contest which caters to team maps as well as solo maps would be something to remember.
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Okay i have to say this.
Stop blaming battle net 2.0 for every single problem you got in SC2. It is getting Old. In terms of melee map making not much has changed really.
Battle 1.0 had no way of protecting maps at all. In WC3 once players played on a map all the players had it. So all the players in an online pro tournement would have acces to a map once they played on it once and could upload it to a Map-wepsite where everyone could then download and edit it.
Would you really go back to that and lose what little control over your maps you already got?
I feel like at this point it is the tournements time to make their move. Blizzard has been accepting towards you and have even bended their acceptance towards how much imbalance they accept(Cload kingdom was told to be 70% PvT on ladder). There will probably even come a time where they have to pull the worst balanced communtity maps and you need to be prepared for that.
At this point it doesn't seem like S8 will have any community maps but then again we have seen some the last 2 seasons and Blizzard got some mapmakers themself. At this point i doupt we can see community maps every season. If 2 out of 3 Seasons coming forth will have at least one community map then it would be impressive on blizzards part.
You are going to need to put preassure on the tournements. The worst offender here is obviosly MLG who at this point seems to accept nothing from outside ladder. Dreamhack was brave and took in 2 new unknown maps. And then one of them turned out to be bugged in the finals. GSL brings in plenty of new maps but until recently they mostly relied on crux.
To answers your questions:
1) Not by Blizzard at this point. Still by many of the tournements.
2) Of course it is always fun to see new maps.
3)We already see new maps each seasson I supose this question is more for tournement players.
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A few more folks to answer some questions and i'll go ahead and forward this to blizzard via e-mail. The more feedback the better guys!
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1) Why do you feel community melee maps are often being ignored or left in the dark?
I think there are multiple coinciding factors that have lead to this particular issue. These are dominated by an overabundance of melee maps in comparison to the number of tournaments offering new maps in its pool. Broken down:
There are a TON of 1v1 melee maps out there right now. Perhaps not a lot considered worthy for high-level competition (as those maps must succeed in criteria involving playability, variability, strategic maneuverability, spectator aesthetic pleasure, etc. . .), but enough that it would be difficult for a tournament organizer to properly assess a list of maps. A solution to the first issue here would be to compile a list of maps released for SC2 (much akin to what we have here on TeamLiquid's Liquipedia for BroodWar).
Secondly, tournament organizers are reluctant to utilize newer melee maps that have less testing on them, unless larger tournaments have already begun to use those maps. This is understandable as tournament organizers and sponsors are putting their brands all over the tournament. They NEED to have good play, which cannot be limited by the maps, in order to make a good appearance and expand the scope of their marketability. As of right now, tournament organizers do not have a proper method of identifying maps that would be good for tournament use due to low numbers of testing that occurs outside of pre-existing major tournaments that are capable of producing test games (tournament games--bringing us back to the above point about a good identification/listing method of tournament ready maps). They are acting in a conservative business manner, as opposed to risking and attempting to expand this particular set of their audience with new maps.
This leads into a secondary further issue (in my opinion) of viewership decline (say in comparison to the ramping up of viewership of other eSports games such as League of Legends, etc. . . -- I don't know if this is true or not but I do know I have seen talk of it).
Be that as it may, I believe the solution to this secondary issue is the exact same as the first solution. A possible modification would be the creation of an overarching mapping organization (similar to MotM comprised of judges from the Mapping scene with alotted professional gamer input) that would rank maps based on their usefulness in tournaments. Rankings could be on a letter grade scale (A to D where A is "Professional" ready and D is "Amateur" with the inbetweens falling into categories such as "Ladder", etc. . .). These grades would be determinned on a weighted average system that weighs things like race win rates at the a certian play level or higher, etc. . . I believe the model for this already exists within the BroodWar Liquipedia system and can be re-tooled for Starcraft 2.
2) Do you want to see more new community maps in competitive play?
Absolutely! Why wouldn't I want to see more maps, especially those designed by community members (who will have a great understanding of what players and spectators alike want), put into competitive play?
3) Would playing on new maps make the game more fun for you?
Of course! I love seeing variety in maps, and I do grow bored of the same old maps over and over. If new maps are not introduced at a relatively constant rate, than the game will stagnate and I would have little reason aside to continue paying attention to the Starcraft 2 world. New maps are a necessity to increase the longevity of the game.
(optional): 4) If you could present one idea to help the StarCraft community become more involved with the mapping community, what would it be? (ex: more map contests)
See above in question 1 -- This idea can be expanded to include a popular opinion vote on the rating a map deserves. I believe a weighted average is definitely the way to go with it.
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1) Why do you feel community melee maps are often being ignored or left in the dark?
The main reason is the mapping community isn't big enough. If it was bigger you could have a lot of experimentation in maps and tournaments would get interested in the creative ones. Very few tournaments run new maps but since maps don't have a lot of success mappers mostly make maps similar to Blizzard ones (though claiming they suck). They believe if the map is similar to maps we have, tournaments will have more chance to pick them. Though unless maps have a big exposure thanks to Teamliquid mapping contest or were made for the GSL they will never be included in tournaments. Map of the month never had the chance to have a winning map included even though they had an agreement with ESL, except for Cloud Kingdom but it was already in the GSL and the ladder. It feels like a popularity contest and the mapping community isn't popular.
There's not much interaction between maps and players. The aim of Map of the month was to integrate maps into tournaments. So judges were conservative and picked safe maps that wouldn't differ too much from currently played maps. Motm's aim could have been to test maps or to ask players what features they liked but it wasn't. So as a result maps made for the contest weren't very original and players who were bored by standard ladder maps would look at community maps and only find similar maps to what they knew and found boring.
Another reason is because from times to times the community discredits itself. Like when mappers said the only balanced symmetry was the "VARS", the left-right symmetry. Or the FRB episode, maps with only 6 minerals and 1 gas. Or when every mapper was making 4 players rotational maps because positional imbalances were a good way to make games interesting. Or when mappers claimed the only way to balance maps were to have a big main, a small natural and a 3rd that would touch the main, and that it would promote epic games because players would only attack after reaching 200 food so battles would only be epic. Mappers often change their mind but it seems as if there's only 1 truth at a given time.
2) Do you want to see more new community maps in competitive play?
Yes but not standard maps like 4 player rotational symmetry or copies of Shakuras Plateau. I'd like to see maps that encourage meta-game. Maps with features but not an exploit. Maps where people won't do the same builds as other maps. Maps like http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=310399.
3) Would playing on new maps make the game more fun for you?
It'd only be more fun if maps are a bit different than Blizzard maps and encourage a specific meta-game. If it's a map where I can do the same builds I can just play ladder games.
4)If you could present one idea to help the StarCraft community become more involved with the mapping community, what would it be?
A mode to run a "sit-and-go" inside Starcraft 2 like in Quake 4. You'd pick a small pool of maps and as soon as you have 4 or 8 players the custom tournament would start and players would be matched in a single elimination tourney. This way you could have both fun and competitive custom games against people of the same level. And you could throw custom melee maps in the pool.
Another idea is to have the ESV team run tournaments with melee maps from the community, not just their own maps. They have the contacts, the organization skills and the interests in mapping, they're the ones who can run this kind of tournament. I've tried to run such tournaments and I had players like Seiplo, Empire ho8ot, Utopi but the last tournaments I ran I only had 1 or 2 people signed in. It's too big for 1 person outside of the pro scene run tournaments like this.
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Here is my solution:
"The Crazy Ladder" would be a second ladder with parallel leagues just like the main Blizzard ladder (i.e. you could be diamond on the main ladder, and masters on the crazy ladder.
The Crazy Ladder would have a giant map pool made up of entirely community made melee maps. After each game you would rate a map (like in the Blizz arcade beta). High ranked maps (and especially maps that receive high ranks from all three races) would appear more commonly in the crazy ladder, and maps that consistently ranked low would flush out and be replaced. Anyone could submit maps for inclusion, as long as the map followed basic melee map guidelines (re: symmetry, number of bases, etc.)
Every season, the top 5 most highly rated maps would be considered for inclusion in the main map pool, with maybe the one or two best balanced being included.
The reason this is a good solution is because it doesn't require additional staff or jobs or sponsors or other structural changes. It is democratic. It is non-mandatory--predominantly people interested in mapmaking will play on this ladder. It would be fun--people who play "by the seat of their pants" would have an advantage over people who have a meticulously created plan for each map--Catz would be the #1 GM.
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Since it seems there is going to be more separation between UMS maps and melee maps in the arcade update, Blizzard should have featured melee maps like they do custom games
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Well me Blazinghand and Seeker started this thing where hopefully we'll have notable TL members face off in a fun showmatch weekly, and all the maps we are using are community made maps (well, basically any new maps or maps that are good but not in ladder/tournaments).
So hopefully this will turn out successful and help grow the community mapmaking. Viewers can have fun watching their fellow TLers fight on new maps and thus see new (and potentially interesting) strategies/games. Mapmakers can see more people play games on their maps, and in a fun and social way. And the maps will get more exposure.
Thread:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=349308
Feedback will be taken of course lol. This is the first one, so we'll see how it goes ;O
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1. As mentioned before, there are a lot of them. Also people have a certain picture in mind what a good map needs and what not. now this is not necessarily a bad thing because you can't just do funky stuff all around and expect it to be playable.
BUT this sort of standart towards maps has led to maps that are similar to each other. Expantions, ramps, the middle of a map and other aspects of a map, all of them need to meet certain standard. Now if you put all those "standards" together, since you want to make a good map, it leads to certain similarities that all maps have. I'm aware that it's not as extreme as I described here (lack of english T.T) but if you combine this feeling that I have (and probably others share) and the fact that there are so many really really good maps out there, it feels kind of boring to someone not as passionate about mapmaking.
2. Do you even need to ask? 
3. It would certain strats that are strong on one map may be weaker on another, this leads to much diversity which is a cool thing :D. Especially as a spectator.
4. I think Map of the month is a great thing! Acually It motivates me to make maps that are worthy of participating (sadly I'm still faaaaaaaaaaaaaar away from doing maps like those I see in the contest). Things like that keep the mapmaking
community running! A solution I see would be a priced tournament (a few hundred bucks as pricepool maybe) featuring submissions of the contest or maybe the last x winners of the contest. This would attract a lot of pros and just good players to play as they can win some $$ while the best mapmakers get some great information about how balanced their map is. Also this tournament could be a determing factor about what map gets the win, so those with the most epic games or the most balanced winratios. Sadly I can hardly see sponsors interested in such a tournament as the standard format probably attracts more viewers so we need to ask for it loudly  .
Also I think that there is a lack of communication between mapmakers and the community. How many people actually know or even regularily visit mapster? I've once seen a show with superouman, Ironmansc (sorry I forgot the other 2 it's been a while T.T) they talked alot about mapmaking, also things that are mentioned in this threat. And there was a stream (by ESV I think) where they streamed the making of a map, sadly they had rather few viewers so the show got cancelled after a while.
So I'd say the attempts are there but mapmaking doesn't get enough exposure (yes I know this stands already in the OP...). But people need to value the process of mapmaking. So I thought of maybe a documentary of a famous mapmaker
making a map in a fast and enjoyable pace. Sort of "how I made cloud kingdom" in 20min. I think that the other attemps, such as talking for a few hours about maps or showing the hourlong process of making a decent map as done before is
just to dry for someone that is just dabbling in mapmaking.
On June 02 2012 10:49 MarcusRife wrote:
Blizzard can create a "future map pool". They don't need to make any promises or commitments at first at the very least. Just post on their website a number of maps that have potential to become ladder maps. If people think there is a chance that a map will be introduced in the future they will play it. It plays to the hyper-competitive nature, people can get an edge if they are ahead on new maps first. When Blizzard announces new maps people jump all over them. Create polls, and perhaps get people to submit replays somehow to get gameplay data. All of this can be done "outside" the game i.e. no Battle.net changes.
Also, I think Blizzard is all for experimentation in maps. Have you seen some of the maps they put out? E.G. Arid Plateau.
At last I think this idea is super duper awesome! It's not costy and it only requires the responsible people to agree on doing it! :D
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On July 03 2012 01:41 Bobnoble wrote:
I've once seen a show with superouman, Ironmansc (sorry I forgot the other 2 it's been a while T.T) they talked alot about mapmaking, also things that are mentioned in this threat. And there was a stream (by ESV I think) where they streamed the making of a map, sadly they had rather few viewers so the show got cancelled after a while.
You're talking about the Mappers Show, which hasn't been aired in a month because Nerski (host) recently moved and has been very busy lately. It's not cancelled, just too busy. The 4th guy on the show is prodiG by the way.
And I think the stream you're talking about, where a map is being made live, is what I occasionally do on ESVTV (i'm the only mapper who map streams). I haven't gotten around to doing this because 1) the korean weekly is always on as well as the lame 24/7 rebroadcasts which soaks up every second of every day on that stream until the next live broadcast, and 2) I don't have a new map to work on.
I do what i can though.
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On July 03 2012 01:48 IronManSC wrote:Show nested quote +On July 03 2012 01:41 Bobnoble wrote:
I've once seen a show with superouman, Ironmansc (sorry I forgot the other 2 it's been a while T.T) they talked alot about mapmaking, also things that are mentioned in this threat. And there was a stream (by ESV I think) where they streamed the making of a map, sadly they had rather few viewers so the show got cancelled after a while.
You're talking about the Mappers Show, which hasn't been aired in a month because Nerski (host) recently moved and has been very busy lately. It's not cancelled, just too busy. The 4th guy on the show is prodiG by the way. And I think the stream you're talking about, where a map is being made live, is what I occasionally do on ESVTV (i'm the only mapper who map streams). I haven't gotten around to doing this because 1) the korean weekly is always on as well as the lame 24/7 rebroadcasts which soaks up every second of every day on that stream until the next live broadcast, and 2) I don't have a new map to work on. I do what i can though.
I didn't realize that it was you making the show! Shame on me! And thanks for the update
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Just as a friendly reminder, when are you planning on forwarding the posts in this thread to Blizzard, IronMan? It seems to me that for us this is one of the most important conversations that can be had, and it looks like it's on the verge of falling flat before it's ever started. I'd love to be wrong though.
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On July 03 2012 03:15 NewSunshine wrote:
Just as a friendly reminder, when are you planning on forwarding the posts in this thread to Blizzard, IronMan? It seems to me that for us this is one of the most important conversations that can be had, and it looks like it's on the verge of falling flat before it's ever started. I'd love to be wrong though.
I forwarded it to them a week ago. No response. So just expect the worst and hope for the best.
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On July 03 2012 04:11 IronManSC wrote:Show nested quote +On July 03 2012 03:15 NewSunshine wrote:
Just as a friendly reminder, when are you planning on forwarding the posts in this thread to Blizzard, IronMan? It seems to me that for us this is one of the most important conversations that can be had, and it looks like it's on the verge of falling flat before it's ever started. I'd love to be wrong though. I forwarded it to them a week ago. No response. So just expect the worst and hope for the best.
Oh I see. In that case, I can do nothing but echo that notion. Thanks for taking the initiative though
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1) Why do you feel community melee maps are often being ignored or left in the dark?
Just a guess - too many maps, not good enough filters to weed out the bad ones.
2) Do you want to see more new community maps in competitive play?
From spectator point of view i only want maps as good as possible - some of them are bound to come from community tho - so yes.
3) Would playing on new maps make the game more fun for you?
For someone with under 100 league wins, there are too many maps in my custom game menus already - so cant really tell.
(optional): 4) If you could present one idea to help the StarCraft community become more involved with the mapping Last edit: 2012-06-03 08:37:22
community, what would it be? (ex: more map contests)
Some sort of easy system for trying out new maps
1) Small-medium sized pool of maps ( 8-16 ) , chosen by admins who can filter out the obviously bad ones.
2) Each week 2-6 maps get added, 2-6 get removed ( based on number of votes, rating and weeks-in-pool )
3) Players rate the maps.
This could be a initial filter that more players might want to participate in, next step would be get the maps that get good feedback to something like TLMC
Whole thing being 100% ingame, with (maybe even mmr based) matchmaking, and random maps - would get more feedback by order of magnitude - but perhaps a website-only with weekly TL/Reddit threads would work too. ( without matchmaking smaller map-pool is essential, to get enough people to play the same maps at the same time )
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Why not have 1-2 ladder map each season decided by a mapmaking contest?
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On July 06 2012 11:10 MajorityofOne wrote:
Why not have 1-2 ladder map each season decided by a mapmaking contest?
Could result in maps of a lesser quality unintentionally making it to the pool.
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Why not have a team which scouts out the best community maps, and then make a seperate ladder w/ a crapton of certified quality community maps in the pool?
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1) Why do you feel community melee maps are often being ignored or left in the dark?
No exposure and 'homemade' maps are usually viewed by the normal playerbase as imbalanced, ugly or bad. Even if they arent.
2) Do you want to see more new community maps in competitive play?
Yes please, but they have to be good, polished and PLAYTESTED!
3) Would playing on new maps make the game more fun for you?
Playing on maps by people from these forums, sure. I dont play alot tho
4) If you could present one idea to help the StarCraft community become more involved with the mapping community, what would it be?
Have atleast 1 big TLMC per season (can even mirror that to the GSL/MLG/etc)
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To Question 4: Mappers unite!
I've thought of this recently: Maybe the new HotS Clansystem will give mapmaking some new drive. Imagine a dozen or two mappers together in a clan:
I have a feeling that many clans (appart from my mappers clan idea) will focus much more on custom games to train and private tournaments. I haven't played WC3 but from what I read, it happened alot in this clan system. So correct me if I'm wrong and it was only a marginal phenomenon.
So a mappers clan will be focusing on CG on their own maps gathering much more testing and because of that will achieve alot better balance for their maps. This will lead to better maps and, if a clan reaches a certain level of fame, much more exposure to community maps.
I'm already dreaming of a perfect world where there are people saying: " oh maps from SuperUberMappers are waaay cooler than those from MegaHyperMappers clan." And lively discussions around them.
I'll be sure to join such a clan if it happens :D.
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I will for once try to remain short....
1) Why do you feel community melee maps are often being ignored or left in the dark?
Mostly because players and mapping community in it self is seperately isolated from each other in many ways.
And that even good maps remains relatively not interesting.. because they dont have a future where they might be used in ranked matches.. and therefore would for most of the ones who plays SC2 seem like a waste of time compared to their practice on already used maps for ranking play.
2) Do you want to see more new community maps in competitive play?
Personally i would like it, as mentioned in question 1.. i think that would improve the odds of more good maps.. and a further development of different game styles and experiences.
3) Would playing on new maps make the game more fun for you?
More options for playing would undoubtably atleast increase the chances for making it funnier.. and i think my self having the extra options would be good.
(optional): 4) If you could present one idea to help the StarCraft community become more involved with the mapping community, what would it be? (ex: more map contests)
Bring in a new function ingame that really highlights maps.. to be noticed by the public.. where of theres enough commercial content about events on the "frontpage" it would definately improve map attention to make a column there for news around map making and new maps.
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I just went on battle.net to find some cool maps to play, and none of the ones that are here show up!
I think that a simple first step-solution would be to create a chat channel for playtesting new melee maps, especially if there was a bot that gave a list of all maps from the past 2 months with some number of views/replies here every 15 minutes or so.
Or a stickied thread maintained by a bot that just collects maps that garner attention here, so we have one place to go to look for new maps to play.
Something like
Maps adopted by any significant tournament
+ Show Spoiler +
Map competition winners
+ Show Spoiler +
Highest threshold of views/replies
+ Show Spoiler +
2nd threshold of views/replies
+ Show Spoiler +
and you could even have polls on how much players liked each map aesthetically and for gameplay
and even links to games that have been casted or just replays from each map
A single well maintained TL thread with enough people pointing at it would get a lot of attention.
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On July 12 2012 01:05 RFDaemoniac wrote:I just went on battle.net to find some cool maps to play, and none of the ones that are here show up! I think that a simple first step-solution would be to create a chat channel for playtesting new melee maps, especially if there was a bot that gave a list of all maps from the past 2 months with some number of views/replies here every 15 minutes or so. Or a stickied thread maintained by a bot that just collects maps that garner attention here, so we have one place to go to look for new maps to play. Something like Maps adopted by any significant tournament + Show Spoiler +Map competition winners + Show Spoiler +Highest threshold of views/replies + Show Spoiler +2nd threshold of views/replies + Show Spoiler +and you could even have polls on how much players liked each map aesthetically and for gameplay and even links to games that have been casted or just replays from each map A single well maintained TL thread with enough people pointing at it would get a lot of attention.
You know what else would be cool is if they set up map clan on bnet. When you go to create a custom game, you can auto-select Blizzard maps, but it would be cool if you could auto-select ESV or other map making clan's maps. When you search ESV you get ESV maps, but you also get a bunch of garbage and it is sometimes annoying to sort through. I think it would be neat also if in the spotlight section Blizz spotlighted a "Map of the Week" like they used to do WAAAYYYY back in the SC2 vanilla days.
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United States10094 Posts
i'd love to play on maps that i helped give feedback on, and who knows, maybe even took an idea of mine into play
Blizzard should support us. We make WAY better maps that they do, or ever will. I think half the ladder should be the maps from MotM and from Blizzard. I mean seriously, the ENTIRE BW map pool is ALWAYS made from pro-map makers. Not Blizzard (Lost Temple imba anyone). Same here.
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But I don't think that we can count on Blizzard being willing to change how they do the ladder map pool. If we create a large map pool and make it easy to find (even if it's just a stickied thread) I think it would go a long way to improving the melee map culture
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You know what I would like to see is a sticky thread of something also like a "TL Map Pool" that get's updated every so often (couple of months...) and will only have listed maps that are heavily time tested or new ones by well-respected makers. Really the TL map Pool would not have any real bearing except influence, but it could be a good example of what the ladder and tourneys should strive for.
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@RFDaemonic you are aware that maps posted in different regions are not available if your not in that region right?
If you already knew that, i apologize for stating the obvious.
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On June 02 2012 10:49 MarcusRife wrote:+ Show Spoiler +1) Why do you feel community melee maps are often being ignored or left in the dark? Many reasons. Lack of support from Blizzard, tournaments, e-sports celebrities, etc. Bad custom game system on Battle.net. The hyper-competitive nature of Starcraft and the limited amount of time people have to play/practice. More I can't think of right now. 2) Do you want to see more new community maps in competitive play? Absolutely yes! 3) Would playing on new maps make the game more fun for you? Yes. I play my own maps probably too much. (optional): 4) If you could present one idea to help the StarCraft community become more involved with the mapping community, what would it be? (ex: more map contests) Blizzard can create a "future map pool". They don't need to make any promises or commitments at first at the very least. Just post on their website a number of maps that have potential to become ladder maps. If people think there is a chance that a map will be introduced in the future they will play it. It plays to the hyper-competitive nature, people can get an edge if they are ahead on new maps first. When Blizzard announces new maps people jump all over them. Create polls, and perhaps get people to submit replays somehow to get gameplay data. All of this can be done "outside" the game i.e. no Battle.net changes. Also, I think Blizzard is all for experimentation in maps. Have you seen some of the maps they put out? E.G. Arid Plateau.
That suggestion's the one I think best so far.
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I personally don't care about the SC map community until SC2 is where I want it to be game-design wise. It's vain to make all these nice maps with a mediocre game to play on them.
That said, I definitely agree that the map community should be unified. But I'd like better visibility with the GSL and OGN map makers and with top players.
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On July 12 2012 12:08 0neder wrote:
I personally don't care about the SC map community until SC2 is where I want it to be game-design wise. It's vain to make all these nice maps with a mediocre game to play on them.
A huge part of the reason SC2 is as bad as it is is because Blizzard used terrible maps when they were making it. The parts of the game support each other. Player skill needs to improve, game needs to improves, and maps need to improve, all at once. If you try to do one without the other, you'll probably start heading in the wrong direction.
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Yes, I completely agree. But there are other issues beyond maps like spacing and unit control that maps can't fix.
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One thing that may or may not have been touched on here (I sort of skimmed) that I think could change mapmaking a bit in the future - with the current metagame protoss has to be able to FFE vs Z so any map pretty much has to allow that (although on Dual Sight FFE'ing can be dubious). Zergs generally need to be able to take a third without too much trouble. etc. etc.
Once HOTS hits a lot of the changes (such as mothership core) may allow mapmakers to make a much wider variety of maps. This may seem irrelevant to the thread but where I'm going with this is: with the current state of the game mapmakers are so funneled into making very similar maps that anyone that has a decent grasp of the game and really dots their i's and playtests their maps (uses mapanalyzer, makes sure there's no unintended highgrounds, makes sure to put a neutral supply depot at ramp etc.) can make a map that is probably 90-95% as good as a map from one of the very best mapmakers (and probably plays similarly to an existing map), and the difference between those two maps just won't affect the outcome of the game very often. So when all maps are fairly similar, who really cares about the person that made it, right? Without as many restrictions, creative mapmakers can impact the scene more with a wider scope of creative yet balanced maps and thus get more attention. I don't know if I worded that perfectly but maybe someone gets what I'm saying.
p.s. - Yes I think battle-tested user maps that have gone under the microscope of an expert to ensure no problems should absolutely be used more in tournaments/on the ladder. You just have to limit it as people don't want to have to learn new maps too often.
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Is this still happening, or already happend?
Any response from blizz?
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I have been mulling over an idea for improving mapmaking that also helps Blizzard and tournaments feel like including new maps is less of a risk.
It's basically a fusion of the map analyzer with sc2gears to gather tons and tons of data to evaluate a map's incentives. (before I finished this post I realize that I haven't opened sc2gears in maybe a year now, so if it can already grab this stuff then we're closer than I thought.)
What to gather?
-Make a heat map of which bases players actually take in games. For example, if you gathered this over a huge number of games on Antiga Shipyard, I don't think anyone would be surprised if bases 1-2-3 are all really hot and every base beyond that is cold. Which is fine, I'm not saying that is bad, but my gut feeling is a map pool only needs one map with that kind of expansion profile. But there's something really strong you can do with this data: for each race separately, can you distribute which bases players take after the natural (even out the heat because players see value in different options)? We can theory craft about whether a map has interesting expansion options, but you need data to prove it.
-Make a heat map of which bases players take that the opponent kills. One really important thing I think what this will tell you is what kind of natural and what kind of nat+third configurations are too strong. Like if you made a main with two in-base expos and a watchtower then 99% of games on that map might be longer than an hour. But what more reasonable-looking maps don't seem to have enough base killing? I don't know, but this would tell us.
-Make a heat map of where workers died and where non-workers died. These sort of tell you where harass is happening and where skirmishes, busts and battles are happening. I think what you want to do here is try to find maps where battles happen in places other than just nats (early game), between nats and thirds (on lots of maps there is a comfortable max-army rally point that protects all the bases) and center watchtowers. Those are natural engagement areas, and everything you can do to make other places on the map interesting is good. My guess is very few maps have an unusual profile in this regard. Off the top of my head I would hazard that Xel Naga Caverns had an unusual engagement profile--that chasm in the middle was big, but not too big; I recall many games where players maneuvered big armies slowly back and forth around the center because your main, the gold bases and watchtowers were distributed around it. And then tangent to that path there was the low-ground expo with rocks, and you had this cool incentive to break off parts of your army to go around the far side and harass that base and the high ground base at the edge. Even if the map is too small for the current metagame, I think that map had some solid features.
So someone with a little time and know-how could write a little replay reader or maybe an extension to sc2gears to gather this stuff. When we've got that far I think the next step is a massive replay database. You of course want games at the highest level you can get (tournament games), but if you ever want Blizzard to include it in the map pool then I think you have to make a great song disguised as pop and grab data at lower levels too just to spot serious disasters.
What's the overall gameplan?
1. Gather this data for current map pool/tournament maps.
2. Identify maps that promote diverse play and maps that definitely do not. Win/loss data per map is just too coarse.
3. Catalogue it. For naturals with ramps, does the ramp width have a huge impact on its vulnerability? How about the placement of gases for bases? What types of base vulnerabilities beyond the natural are a good balance of tenable with impregnable? How far from the main is a given base that appears too safe/too open? How far from the main attack path between mains is a given good/bad base? There are a lot of observations you can make after you gather just the few easy metrics I mentioned.
4. Try to make new maps that use proven features that also try to open up the game where current maps seem to be lacking.
So yeah, it is definitely hard to get players and tournaments to adopt new maps, but I think we can reduce the risk involved by collecting a database of quality replays and extracting the right metrics from it. Otherwise we're kind of shooting in the dark.
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I think there was a program which created heatmaps of these sorts of things already. Just from a single game, I think, more as a visual aid for spectators, but it was basically just a simpler version of what you're talking about.
I really think it's a great idea to have more map analysis from replays. Great initiative.
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1: IMO all ESV maps I've played so far are buggy and bad, such as wall-offs being impossible and costing progamers the series. Prime team makes good maps though. (Of course this is subjective)
2: No, not if they are like Cloud Kingdom, korhal, etc
3: yes if they were good/interesting
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On July 17 2012 16:43 BreakfastBurrito wrote:
1: IMO all ESV maps I've played so far are buggy and bad, such as wall-offs being impossible and costing progamers the series. Prime team makes good maps though. (Of course this is subjective)
lol?
What maps?
What bugs?
What's bad about each ESV map you've played? More importantly, which maps have you actually played?
What "discoveries" have you made that e-sports hasn't figured out yet?
To me it sounds like the only encounter you had with an ESV map was when you, perhaps, spectated the 'ESV Vicious' game where thorzain discovered a bug on the wall-off ramp, because your entire argument is based on that one single game, so to say all the ESV maps are buggy and bad is extremely laughable.
Details please.
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1) I just play ladder, therefore the maps are ignored. It needs a big tourney to make the maps well known, as Kespa used to promote maps.
2)&3) Yes I really want new maps, the map cycle of Bnet is too slow.
4) I spent 10 mins thinking about it and I can't think about something except a low level league like plat diamond. There is a lack of teams in SC2.
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1) Why do you feel community melee maps are often being ignored or left in the dark?
Because there a gap between mapmaking community and pro gamers, so most of maps end up nor being tested enough, not being balanced for high level play, and ultimately not being picked up by big tournaments and leagues.
2) Do you want to see more new community maps in competitive play?
Absolutely not, I want only Blizzard maps (sarcasm).
Yeah more community maps, of course.
3) Would playing on new maps make the game more fun for you?
Yes.
4) If you could present one idea to help the StarCraft community become more involved with the mapping community, what would it be?
Some kind of joint mapmaking and gaming league, where players play on a bunch of new maps and rate them, at the end of the season not only the players advance to the finals but also the best maps (based on ratings and downvotes and map picks).
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On July 17 2012 17:07 IronManSC wrote:Show nested quote +On July 17 2012 16:43 BreakfastBurrito wrote:
1: IMO all ESV maps I've played so far are buggy and bad, such as wall-offs being impossible and costing progamers the series. Prime team makes good maps though. (Of course this is subjective) lol? What maps? What bugs? What's bad about each ESV map you've played? More importantly, which maps have you actually played?What "discoveries" have you made that e-sports hasn't figured out yet? To me it sounds like the only encounter you had with an ESV map was when you, perhaps, spectated the 'ESV Vicious' game where thorzain discovered a bug on the wall-off ramp, because your entire argument is based on that one single game, so to say all the ESV maps are buggy and bad is extremely laughable. Details please.
No, not if you are gonna be so impolite and elitist and assume that's what my entire thought process was based off of~
the ESV viscious is just one of several times when I've seen a walloff fail in a pro game. You ask for criticism and then are so shocked when you hear something that's not a suggestion that mapmakers should have a gold statue with their name on it in the middle of every map.
I went out of my way to be polite and respectfully say that I prefer prime maps to ESV maps instead of just being a troll/flamer about it, would be nice if you could show some respect.
One thing I'll concede is that when i said "bad" I didn't explain that relative to Blizzard maps. "bad" is still pretty good. I'm sad when I get Cloud Kingdom on ladder but not as sad as I would be if Shakuras wasn't vetoed.
Anyway, despite you thinking I'm second class because I don't dick around in the galaxy editor, I'll try to explain why I like prime more. (I don't like every prime map either, atlantis spaceship is too big, zerg can macro away)
Metropolis, Bel'Shir (in its current state, before it was too open) and Daybreak are, to me, the most fun maps to watch (and play) It's the least amount of "frustration" as far as annoying siege tank/elevator spots or the chance to get gimmickd out by some BS cheese that is map specific.
I think the rocks at the nat of metropolis make for some interesting situations.
The entrance to the nat on CK is so narrow that every protoss can wall it off incredibly quickly and easily. FFE and 2 base allins are that much easier.
Ohana's attack paths are so skinny. Deathballs galore.
Korhal had that awful siege situation and by the time it was fixed it was out of circulation. Ironically that was one of my fav ESV maps.
As for the prime maps,
I think the rocks at the nat of metropolis make for some interesting situations.
Daybreak's setup on the nat is cool.
Prime maps just more fun and balanced to me. You have to pick a third strategically, not just move your army so that it covers 2 bases.
And I never said I made discoveries E-Sports hadn't made, you downright made that up yourself.
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I like those maps you listed for the most part. But no main ramp on Belshir is kind of lulzy and Daybreak, while cool and soo widely-used, actually favors zerg a bit too heavily. Metropolis is pretty great though.
No comment on the ESV maps being 100% perfect every-single-time but afaik they have a decently tough testing regiment for them before they are released (has to have several sets of expert eyes see it, lots of games played on it, etc.). I'm sure there have been prime maps that have had bugs as well if you looked hard enough. You could try to claim that one team -always- has better maps than the other.. but really the more accurate thing to say would be that both mapmaking sources have some really great maps and some that aren't as good. Saying that either team isn't capable of making great maps would be a bit of a stretch given the history.
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1) Why do you feel community melee maps are often being ignored or left in the dark?
Because most of the play is done via ladder matchmaking. As simple as that. Also because the social aspect of bnet is so poor.
2) Do you want to see more new community maps in competitive play?
Yes, yes and yes.
3) Would playing on new maps make the game more fun for you?
Yes, and to a great amount.
(optional): 4) If you could present one idea to help the StarCraft community become more involved with the mapping community, what would it be? (ex: more map contests)
I would like Blizzard to propose a 2nd map pool for ladder, composed of community maps (from contests for example). The idea would be that players would have as many vetos as there are maps for this pool, maybe all maps being vetoed by default. But when two players are matched with such a map unvetoed, the map would be taken in this pool. This would open the possibility to discover new maps while hitting the matchmaking button.
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On July 17 2012 20:07 BreakfastBurrito wrote:Show nested quote +On July 17 2012 17:07 IronManSC wrote:On July 17 2012 16:43 BreakfastBurrito wrote:
1: IMO all ESV maps I've played so far are buggy and bad, such as wall-offs being impossible and costing progamers the series. Prime team makes good maps though. (Of course this is subjective) lol? What maps? What bugs? What's bad about each ESV map you've played? More importantly, which maps have you actually played?What "discoveries" have you made that e-sports hasn't figured out yet? To me it sounds like the only encounter you had with an ESV map was when you, perhaps, spectated the 'ESV Vicious' game where thorzain discovered a bug on the wall-off ramp, because your entire argument is based on that one single game, so to say all the ESV maps are buggy and bad is extremely laughable. Details please. No, not if you are gonna be so impolite and elitist and assume that's what my entire thought process was based off of~ the ESV viscious is just one of several times when I've seen a walloff fail in a pro game. You ask for criticism and then are so shocked when you hear something that's not a suggestion that mapmakers should have a gold statue with their name on it in the middle of every map. I went out of my way to be polite and respectfully say that I prefer prime maps to ESV maps instead of just being a troll/flamer about it, would be nice if you could show some respect. One thing I'll concede is that when i said "bad" I didn't explain that relative to Blizzard maps. "bad" is still pretty good. I'm sad when I get Cloud Kingdom on ladder but not as sad as I would be if Shakuras wasn't vetoed. Anyway, despite you thinking I'm second class because I don't dick around in the galaxy editor, I'll try to explain why I like prime more. (I don't like every prime map either, atlantis spaceship is too big, zerg can macro away) Metropolis, Bel'Shir (in its current state, before it was too open) and Daybreak are, to me, the most fun maps to watch (and play) It's the least amount of "frustration" as far as annoying siege tank/elevator spots or the chance to get gimmickd out by some BS cheese that is map specific. I think the rocks at the nat of metropolis make for some interesting situations. The entrance to the nat on CK is so narrow that every protoss can wall it off incredibly quickly and easily. FFE and 2 base allins are that much easier. Ohana's attack paths are so skinny. Deathballs galore. Korhal had that awful siege situation and by the time it was fixed it was out of circulation. Ironically that was one of my fav ESV maps. As for the prime maps, I think the rocks at the nat of metropolis make for some interesting situations. Daybreak's setup on the nat is cool. Prime maps just more fun and balanced to me. You have to pick a third strategically, not just move your army so that it covers 2 bases. And I never said I made discoveries E-Sports hadn't made, you downright made that up yourself.
Balance concerns and preferences are one thing. We get tons of those telling us to go in all different directions. You of course have a right to your opinion on that. However, some elaboration on the bugs would be nice.
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On July 17 2012 17:07 IronManSC wrote:Show nested quote +On July 17 2012 16:43 BreakfastBurrito wrote:
1: IMO all ESV maps I've played so far are buggy and bad, such as wall-offs being impossible and costing progamers the series. Prime team makes good maps though. (Of course this is subjective) lol? What maps? What bugs? What's bad about each ESV map you've played? More importantly, which maps have you actually played?What "discoveries" have you made that e-sports hasn't figured out yet? To me it sounds like the only encounter you had with an ESV map was when you, perhaps, spectated the 'ESV Vicious' game where thorzain discovered a bug on the wall-off ramp, because your entire argument is based on that one single game, so to say all the ESV maps are buggy and bad is extremely laughable. Details please.
Ironman - until people like you leave, the community is fucked. You and people like you are just that high above everyone else that you mask the fact you just want YOUR maps exposed. You mask it under the whole "expose the community" bs; when, lets be honest, all youre really saying is "give more exposure to the 2-3 established map making teams like esv".
just look at how you reply to that guy. and im not even commenting on the maps you guys make. its the personalities behind them that are the problem.
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On July 18 2012 01:48 lawol wrote:Show nested quote +On July 17 2012 17:07 IronManSC wrote:On July 17 2012 16:43 BreakfastBurrito wrote:
1: IMO all ESV maps I've played so far are buggy and bad, such as wall-offs being impossible and costing progamers the series. Prime team makes good maps though. (Of course this is subjective) lol? What maps? What bugs? What's bad about each ESV map you've played? More importantly, which maps have you actually played?What "discoveries" have you made that e-sports hasn't figured out yet? To me it sounds like the only encounter you had with an ESV map was when you, perhaps, spectated the 'ESV Vicious' game where thorzain discovered a bug on the wall-off ramp, because your entire argument is based on that one single game, so to say all the ESV maps are buggy and bad is extremely laughable. Details please. Ironman - until people like you leave, the community is fucked. You and people like you are just that high above everyone else that you mask the fact you just want YOUR maps exposed. You mask it under the whole "expose the community" bs; when, lets be honest, all youre really saying is "give more exposure to the 2-3 established map making teams like esv". just look at how you reply to that guy. and im not even commenting on the maps you guys make. its the personalities behind them that are the problem.
Woah, dude, chill. Ironman can come across a jerk in times of conflict (as can many of the "powerful" people in the community, sadly) but there's really nothing to say he doesn't care about the community or only wants his own maps exposed.
I generally think that it's a much larger problem with the community as a whole, that big names or people with high post counts kind of walk all over anyone who makes them mad or says something wrong. Doesn't mean they don't care about the community, they just kind of exclude anyone who misbehaves or disrespects them, or, in some cases, even just says something they find questionable or don't like.
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On July 17 2012 20:07 BreakfastBurrito wrote:Show nested quote +On July 17 2012 17:07 IronManSC wrote:On July 17 2012 16:43 BreakfastBurrito wrote:
1: IMO all ESV maps I've played so far are buggy and bad, such as wall-offs being impossible and costing progamers the series. Prime team makes good maps though. (Of course this is subjective) lol? What maps? What bugs? What's bad about each ESV map you've played? More importantly, which maps have you actually played?What "discoveries" have you made that e-sports hasn't figured out yet? To me it sounds like the only encounter you had with an ESV map was when you, perhaps, spectated the 'ESV Vicious' game where thorzain discovered a bug on the wall-off ramp, because your entire argument is based on that one single game, so to say all the ESV maps are buggy and bad is extremely laughable. Details please. + Show Spoiler +
No, not if you are gonna be so impolite and elitist and assume that's what my entire thought process was based off of~
the ESV viscious is just one of several times when I've seen a walloff fail in a pro game. You ask for criticism and then are so shocked when you hear something that's not a suggestion that mapmakers should have a gold statue with their name on it in the middle of every map.
I went out of my way to be polite and respectfully say that I prefer prime maps to ESV maps instead of just being a troll/flamer about it, would be nice if you could show some respect.
One thing I'll concede is that when i said "bad" I didn't explain that relative to Blizzard maps. "bad" is still pretty good. I'm sad when I get Cloud Kingdom on ladder but not as sad as I would be if Shakuras wasn't vetoed.
Anyway, despite you thinking I'm second class because I don't dick around in the galaxy editor, I'll try to explain why I like prime more. (I don't like every prime map either, atlantis spaceship is too big, zerg can macro away)
Metropolis, Bel'Shir (in its current state, before it was too open) and Daybreak are, to me, the most fun maps to watch (and play) It's the least amount of "frustration" as far as annoying siege tank/elevator spots or the chance to get gimmickd out by some BS cheese that is map specific.
I think the rocks at the nat of metropolis make for some interesting situations.
The entrance to the nat on CK is so narrow that every protoss can wall it off incredibly quickly and easily. FFE and 2 base allins are that much easier.
Ohana's attack paths are so skinny. Deathballs galore.
Korhal had that awful siege situation and by the time it was fixed it was out of circulation. Ironically that was one of my fav ESV maps.
As for the prime maps,
I think the rocks at the nat of metropolis make for some interesting situations.
Daybreak's setup on the nat is cool.
Prime maps just more fun and balanced to me. You have to pick a third strategically, not just move your army so that it covers 2 bases.
And I never said I made discoveries E-Sports hadn't made, you downright made that up yourself.
IronMan's post could have used more tact, but you're not making yourself look any better either. As for these "discoveries", he's referring to the bugs you claim are in all of ESV's maps, that somehow the Korean Weekly, as well as any other tournament, somehow didn't find. To be fair, you haven't actually listed these bugs, you've seen probably 1 bug report(the walloff on Vicious), and from there ran on to say that all of their maps were bugged. Yes, Vicious had a bug, but since then the testing phase for their maps has become much longer and much more rigorous, to assure the quality of the maps as much as possible. You are free to prefer CruX's maps all you want, nobody's shoving ESV down your throat, but honestly, your argument doesn't appear to have much substance. Let that come from me, and not IronMan, ignore the personalities.
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On July 18 2012 01:48 lawol wrote:Show nested quote +On July 17 2012 17:07 IronManSC wrote:On July 17 2012 16:43 BreakfastBurrito wrote:
1: IMO all ESV maps I've played so far are buggy and bad, such as wall-offs being impossible and costing progamers the series. Prime team makes good maps though. (Of course this is subjective) lol? What maps? What bugs? What's bad about each ESV map you've played? More importantly, which maps have you actually played?What "discoveries" have you made that e-sports hasn't figured out yet? To me it sounds like the only encounter you had with an ESV map was when you, perhaps, spectated the 'ESV Vicious' game where thorzain discovered a bug on the wall-off ramp, because your entire argument is based on that one single game, so to say all the ESV maps are buggy and bad is extremely laughable. Details please. Ironman - until people like you leave, the community is fucked. You and people like you are just that high above everyone else that you mask the fact you just want YOUR maps exposed. You mask it under the whole "expose the community" bs; when, lets be honest, all youre really saying is "give more exposure to the 2-3 established map making teams like esv". just look at how you reply to that guy. and im not even commenting on the maps you guys make. its the personalities behind them that are the problem.
Ok, now look at how you responded to me. ??
Anyways, this has been explained before. On a live episode of 'mappers', I stated that in these current times, the only way to be more successful in map-making is to get on a map team, like Crux, ESV, or TPW, otherwise you don't have a very high chance. Why? Because map teams have more resources to getting their maps out into the public (I.e. TPW and NASL, ESV and the Korean Weekly, etc). Other mappers have agreed to that. In fact, any mapmaker will tell you this.
That's just the way things are today - for now anyways. Why? Because the community does not have enough exposure as a whole, which was the whole point in creating this thread. So, according to your implication, me saying "give more exposure to the 2-3 established map making teams like esv" is not being biased because I am merely including every map team, hence the obvious "2-3 map teams." All said and done, it personally does not make any sense why I would be self-centered and yet include as many mappers as possible into this.
I think deep down in every mapmaker's soul, he wants his own maps to get exposed, spotlighted, played on by pros, and so forth. This is nothing new and out of the ordinary. If you honestly believe that I'm trying to make it all about me, and if you want to use the argument that I am getting all these interviews about my maps because I want to get my name out there, then go for it, but I assure you that I never went looking for these things. I never asked to get interviewed. I never asked Blizzard to make a blog about jojosc2news interviewing me. They came to me. I honestly don't know why people keep wanting to interview me anyways. I made one good map for sc2, big woopi.
In general, from time to time, some of us might express that 'want' more than others, but we all have it whether you or another mapmaker wants to admit it or not. But, retracing the first paragraph of this response, I am not concerned about MY maps. This is a community-thing, not a self-indulging scam. I don't know where you're getting all this from, or why you think I am "masking" anything because I am trying to gather community mapmaking feedback and forward it to blizzard.
Lastly, you are responding to my previous response that was directed at the breakfast dude, where nothing in my response reflects a "me myself and I" attitude. When someone says all ESV maps are bugged and bad, anyone should have a right to step in and ask why, especially when ESV maps have become more popular as of lately and are amongst the best, according to the majority of the community.
You are right, I can be harsh though, and usually I try to be with good reason. For a couple real examples:
1) Some people keep showing the wrong Ohana stats, and I kindly tell them about it. Then it happens again. Sorry, but now i'm angry. (example- red bull battlegrounds displayed the most lopsided statistics for ohana, and even the wrong map image. They said Ohana was imba for PvT, with a record of something like 14-24, when in reality it was 39-39). Again, it angered me, and rightfully so. If you create something, you'd expect it to be accurate and right for the public.
2) Tournaments like MLG removing the islands from Metropolis without the consent of LSPrime. Now all of us are offended that our work gets played with and we're not even told about it.
I don't feel like typing anymore. I hope you understand more clearly that this is not about me. Just because I am asking some guy in a random corner of the world why he thinks all the ESV maps are bugged and bad, does not somehow conclude that I am self-centered.
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On July 18 2012 04:52 IronManSC wrote:Show nested quote +On July 18 2012 01:48 lawol wrote:On July 17 2012 17:07 IronManSC wrote:On July 17 2012 16:43 BreakfastBurrito wrote:
1: IMO all ESV maps I've played so far are buggy and bad, such as wall-offs being impossible and costing progamers the series. Prime team makes good maps though. (Of course this is subjective) lol? What maps? What bugs? What's bad about each ESV map you've played? More importantly, which maps have you actually played?What "discoveries" have you made that e-sports hasn't figured out yet? To me it sounds like the only encounter you had with an ESV map was when you, perhaps, spectated the 'ESV Vicious' game where thorzain discovered a bug on the wall-off ramp, because your entire argument is based on that one single game, so to say all the ESV maps are buggy and bad is extremely laughable. Details please. Ironman - until people like you leave, the community is fucked. You and people like you are just that high above everyone else that you mask the fact you just want YOUR maps exposed. You mask it under the whole "expose the community" bs; when, lets be honest, all youre really saying is "give more exposure to the 2-3 established map making teams like esv". just look at how you reply to that guy. and im not even commenting on the maps you guys make. its the personalities behind them that are the problem. Ok, now look at how you responded to me. ?? Anyways, this has been explained before. On a live episode of 'mappers', I stated that in these current times, the only way to be more successful in map-making is to get on a map team, like Crux, ESV, or TPW, otherwise you don't have a very high chance. Why? Because map teams have more resources to getting their maps out into the public (I.e. TPW and NASL, ESV and the Korean Weekly, etc). Other mappers have agreed to that. In fact, any mapmaker will tell you this. That's just the way things are today - for now anyways. Why? Because the community does not have enough exposure as a whole, which was the whole point in creating this thread. So, according to your implication, me saying "give more exposure to the 2-3 established map making teams like esv" is not being biased because I am merely including every map team, hence the obvious "2-3 map teams." All said and done, it personally does not make any sense why I would be self-centered and yet include as many mappers as possible into this. I think deep down in every mapmaker's soul, he wants his own maps to get exposed, spotlighted, played on by pros, and so forth. This is nothing new and out of the ordinary. If you honestly believe that I'm trying to make it all about me, and if you want to use the argument that I am getting all these interviews about my maps because I want to get my name out there, then go for it, but I assure you that I never went looking for these things. I never asked to get interviewed. I never asked Blizzard to make a blog about jojosc2news interviewing me. They came to me. I honestly don't know why people keep wanting to interview me anyways. I made one good map for sc2, big woopi. In general, from time to time, some of us might express that 'want' more than others, but we all have it whether you or another mapmaker wants to admit it or not. But, retracing the first paragraph of this response, I am not concerned about MY maps. This is a community-thing, not a self-indulging scam. I don't know where you're getting all this from, or why you think I am "masking" anything because I am trying to gather community mapmaking feedback and forward it to blizzard. Lastly, you are responding to my previous response that was directed at the breakfast dude, where nothing in my response reflects a "me myself and I" attitude. When someone says all ESV maps are bugged and bad, anyone should have a right to step in and ask why, especially when ESV maps have become more popular as of lately and are amongst the best, according to the majority of the community. You are right, I can be harsh though, and usually I try to be with good reason. For a couple real examples: 1) Some people keep showing the wrong Ohana stats, and I kindly tell them about it. Then it happens again. Sorry, but now i'm angry. (example- red bull battlegrounds displayed the most lopsided statistics for ohana, and even the wrong map image. They said Ohana was imba for PvT, with a record of something like 14-24, when in reality it was 39-39). Again, it angered me, and rightfully so. If you create something, you'd expect it to be accurate and right for the public. 2) Tournaments like MLG removing the islands from Metropolis without the consent of LSPrime. Now all of us are offended that our work gets played with and we're not even told about it. I don't feel like typing anymore. I hope you understand more clearly that this is not about me. Just because I am asking some guy in a random corner of the world why he thinks all the ESV maps are bugged and bad, does not somehow conclude that I am self-centered.
Fine, since I can't find any evidence I'll take back that they are bugged. I'll change my statement to that I simply prefer prime maps to ESV maps most of the time. So, you're right, and what I said was wrong.
Yeah I kept stats out of it because people think a small inequality is proof that a map is imbalanced, and it must be irritating for them to say that.
When I posted yesterday I suppose I didn't consider that you mapmakers put a lot of effort into the maps and for me to dismiss them ALL was unfair and cause for anger. Still think you were a little harsh TT
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On July 18 2012 09:21 kim9067 wrote:
friendship <3
<3 <3
Let's all hold hands and sing around the campfire.
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On July 18 2012 10:03 Gfire wrote:<3 <3 Let's all hold hands and sing around the campfire.
But I don't like singing D:
I'll take friendship though.
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The reality is that you melee mapmakers are your own base. UMS players don't care about what you guys make. Hardcore players are content with official maps. Whose left that wants to play your maps?
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On July 18 2012 13:08 Karawasa wrote:
The reality is that you melee mapmakers are your own base. UMS players don't care about what you guys make. Hardcore players are content with official maps. Whose left that wants to play what your maps?
Pro players being content doesn't matter. If the community wants new maps, Blizzard and the tournaments will want to change them, and the pro players will play on them.
We are sort of our own base, but if you go to the community with maps they will be interested. The main problem is actually just that very few people visit the mapping forum.
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On July 18 2012 13:08 Karawasa wrote:
The reality is that you melee mapmakers are your own base. UMS players don't care about what you guys make. Hardcore players are content with official maps. Whose left that wants to play what your maps?
What would you use to define "official"? I hardly think Pro players would be content to be stuck with maps like Shattered Temple and Metalopolis still, in fact most Blizzard maps are proclaimed to be terrible by the player base. I realize that most of the people who play on a serious level don't complain as much, but merely being content with maps that most people dislike is not enough, honestly. It's the mapmaking teams, ESV, CruX, and to an extent TPW, that have improved the map pools of nearly every event dramatically, and in turn the quality of the games. We're nowhere near the point where the status quo is acceptable, quite frankly.
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Why doesn't anything from the map forum (except for the TLMC) get posted on the front page of TL? Announcing MotM results or Mapper's Monthly or anything at all would be huge exposure for maps.
EDIT: I accidentally a word
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