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I'm just a casual fan and I don't really play SC2 anymore, but I do enjoy watching it a lot. I like seeing new maps (which is why I visit this forum/thread to begin with) so I may be biased but I think you're pretty much spot on in the OP. As to your questions:
1) Partially, this is the design of both Blizzard's ingame UI as well as TL not giving enough love. I'll hold off on the Blizzard UI thing because the next patch is going to change it entirely, but TL could give a lot more attention to the mapmaking community (like spotlighting map of the month winners).
I also think a lot of tournaments ignore you as well. Every tournament organizer except Diamond in fact ^^.
2) Yes.
3) Doesn't apply to me since I don't play anymore really.
4) The people 'in charge' of the community need to give more attention to mapmakers. Like I mentioned before, this means tournaments need to change their map pools more (ESV does a great job at this from a fan POV, GSL/IPL as well but slightly less), as well as TL giving more love to map of the month winners. I'd suggest spotlighting the actual map thread that wins it instead of the contest thread to give it a bit of exposure. With a bit of luck you could get reddit behind the mapmakers' cause as well which would pressure tournament organisers a bit more.
Speaking of reddit, have you linked this thread on r/starcraft yet? Since you're asking questions for the community but the only people that will visit this thread are people interested in custom maps to begin with ^^;
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1) I think it's hard for some casual gamers to care about new maps. Why would I want to play Ohana before it's on ladder. I'm just low diamond. Sure my buddy and I might test out a new map just to give it a go. I even put together a few very poorly designed melee maps myself. But we aren't going to be playtesting it in a bo21 or anything, we dont' do that on any map. It's just hard overall to get a certain segment of gamers to go out and try something that will not directly benefit them (Ladder)
2) Short answer yes. But only if they are actually good maps. I could care less who created it. It comes down to the map itself, if blizzard makes the best maps (they don't, but if they did) i would want only blizz maps in ladder. I think also most of the community just doesn't have the exposure because frankly the only place I ever see new maps is the Custom map forum here on TL. I go there once in a while to simply see the new creations. Beyond that I don't play them until they pop up on ladder, or I might try it out if I see it in GSL (atlantis Spaceship)
3) Short answer yes, to an extent. The thing is new/change isn't always better/more fun. There is also the timeframe to think of. I would absolutely hate to be trying to figure out the flow of a map every week. I think every 2 months it'd be ok for blizz to rotate 1-2 new maps into the pool, but any sooner and I would feel overwhelmed. I dont think the blizz map pool is too big, but it certainly can't be bigger. Hopefully we can get a core set of great maps.
4) I think more show matches, and just getting the popular teams in general playing the maps. If people saw EGIdra vs EGHuk on some random map no one has seen, people would go test it out. They would have very little incentive to play on an unknown map, but I think this would be ideal.. This clearly doesn't help the whole "not enough playtesters" which is literally my issue when I create a map. But lets face it some maps just shouldn't be playtested because they are that poorly made. What if TL would make it more of a front page thing for MotM? I mean just to highlight it, and get more of the daily visitors to see it. The more top of mind awareness the better.
This really goes back to my point 1 one, is that most people don't care until it's established. and I feel like this thread is trying to get more maps recognized in the first place. Most people bronze-Plat dont even think about the map in terms of strategy. I'm in diamond and I barely do except on some really obvious ones like Daybreak.
I guess my question is. Where is the incentive for players to get into the mapping process early? Absolutely over the long wrong no one can argue it's not better for the community/scene overall. But that's like telling someone that paying their mortgage will help the neighborhood because values will stay high if you don't get foreclosed on. People only care about themselves in the short term. It's hard to get people to see the whole picture, let alone buy into it if it means no immediate reward for their investment (time/energy that could be simply playing maps that ARE in the current pool)
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The more feedback we get, the better, and the better info I can submit to Blizzard!
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1) Why do you feel community melee maps are often being ignored or left in the dark? Firstly, there so many mappers i think, and so many maps being made. Unless you're get a special opportunity (eg Team Crux, ESV (korean weekly), TLPD), you'll never get your map played at the highest level. I don't really mind that, but the mappers themselves should go around promoting and spaming the chats too i think.
2) Do you want to see more new community maps in competitive play? Blizzard should stop making maps, and let the community make them; do a competition every 2 months, pick one map per month basically to switch one of the ladder maps. If it's only one, it wouldnt be a big deal: if the map turns out to be good, you keep it, if not, you replace it! hurzzarh
3) Would playing on new maps make the game more fun for you? for me, yes, but pros are playing for money, so you need to make the perfect map, which is hard since there's no exposure .. this is the vicious circle. honestly i dunno how to break this. Perhaps along with the map competition, theres a pro competition based on it.
(optional): 4) If you could present one idea to help the StarCraft community become more involved with the mapping community, what would it be? (ex: more map contests) Already gave my answer.
So yeah.
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On June 05 2012 04:05 IronManSC wrote: The more feedback we get, the better, and the better info I can submit to Blizzard!
I had an idea which I posted on the battlenet forums, I was trying to gain some attention for the 2v2, 3v3, and 4v4 map pools.
Blizzard could easily hold a map making contest for those map pools, which haven't been updated since season 3.
Now, before I get shot down with "No one cares" "team games aren't supposed to be balanced" and "The current map pool is fine", I'd just like to make the point that there is nothing to lose from doing something like that. It would actually greatly invigorate the map making community and give us something to strive for. I feel like a lot of people don't make maps because they feel they'll probably never get played on - here is a way to give great map makers the opportunity to get their maps play time. It could also serve as a beta test for future contests.
Maybe I'm barking up the wrong tree by harping about the team maps, but I just don't see any downsides to my proposal aside from the time and effort put in to it. If it fails miserably, its not like the 1v1 map pool is on the line.
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On June 05 2012 07:45 TheFish7 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 04:05 IronManSC wrote: The more feedback we get, the better, and the better info I can submit to Blizzard! I had an idea which I posted on the battlenet forums, I was trying to gain some attention for the 2v2, 3v3, and 4v4 map pools. Blizzard could easily hold a map making contest for those map pools, which haven't been updated since season 3. Now, before I get shot down with "No one cares" "team games aren't supposed to be balanced" and "The current map pool is fine", I'd just like to make the point that there is nothing to lose from doing something like that. It would actually greatly invigorate the map making community and give us something to strive for. I feel like a lot of people don't make maps because they feel they'll probably never get played on - here is a way to give great map makers the opportunity to get their maps play time. It could also serve as a beta test for future contests. Maybe I'm barking up the wrong tree by harping about the team maps, but I just don't see any downsides to my proposal aside from the time and effort put in to it. If it fails miserably, its not like the 1v1 map pool is on the line. I agree with the notion completely, and I think it is perhaps time to delve into team-maps, if only as an on-the-side thing. A large contest with sections for 1v1, 2v2, 3v3, and 4v4 would be awesome, actually, as it would have the usual 1v1 slugfest of maps, but also some really clever team map ideas people have got. We saw some of these in the TLMC, but since that was primarily a 1v1 map contest they never really got anywhere. I definitely think a contest which caters to team maps as well as solo maps would be something to remember.
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Okay i have to say this.
Stop blaming battle net 2.0 for every single problem you got in SC2. It is getting Old. In terms of melee map making not much has changed really.
Battle 1.0 had no way of protecting maps at all. In WC3 once players played on a map all the players had it. So all the players in an online pro tournement would have acces to a map once they played on it once and could upload it to a Map-wepsite where everyone could then download and edit it.
Would you really go back to that and lose what little control over your maps you already got?
I feel like at this point it is the tournements time to make their move. Blizzard has been accepting towards you and have even bended their acceptance towards how much imbalance they accept(Cload kingdom was told to be 70% PvT on ladder). There will probably even come a time where they have to pull the worst balanced communtity maps and you need to be prepared for that.
At this point it doesn't seem like S8 will have any community maps but then again we have seen some the last 2 seasons and Blizzard got some mapmakers themself. At this point i doupt we can see community maps every season. If 2 out of 3 Seasons coming forth will have at least one community map then it would be impressive on blizzards part.
You are going to need to put preassure on the tournements. The worst offender here is obviosly MLG who at this point seems to accept nothing from outside ladder. Dreamhack was brave and took in 2 new unknown maps. And then one of them turned out to be bugged in the finals. GSL brings in plenty of new maps but until recently they mostly relied on crux.
To answers your questions:
1) Not by Blizzard at this point. Still by many of the tournements.
2) Of course it is always fun to see new maps.
3)We already see new maps each seasson I supose this question is more for tournement players.
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A few more folks to answer some questions and i'll go ahead and forward this to blizzard via e-mail. The more feedback the better guys!
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1) Why do you feel community melee maps are often being ignored or left in the dark?
I think there are multiple coinciding factors that have lead to this particular issue. These are dominated by an overabundance of melee maps in comparison to the number of tournaments offering new maps in its pool. Broken down:
There are a TON of 1v1 melee maps out there right now. Perhaps not a lot considered worthy for high-level competition (as those maps must succeed in criteria involving playability, variability, strategic maneuverability, spectator aesthetic pleasure, etc. . .), but enough that it would be difficult for a tournament organizer to properly assess a list of maps. A solution to the first issue here would be to compile a list of maps released for SC2 (much akin to what we have here on TeamLiquid's Liquipedia for BroodWar).
Secondly, tournament organizers are reluctant to utilize newer melee maps that have less testing on them, unless larger tournaments have already begun to use those maps. This is understandable as tournament organizers and sponsors are putting their brands all over the tournament. They NEED to have good play, which cannot be limited by the maps, in order to make a good appearance and expand the scope of their marketability. As of right now, tournament organizers do not have a proper method of identifying maps that would be good for tournament use due to low numbers of testing that occurs outside of pre-existing major tournaments that are capable of producing test games (tournament games--bringing us back to the above point about a good identification/listing method of tournament ready maps). They are acting in a conservative business manner, as opposed to risking and attempting to expand this particular set of their audience with new maps.
This leads into a secondary further issue (in my opinion) of viewership decline (say in comparison to the ramping up of viewership of other eSports games such as League of Legends, etc. . . -- I don't know if this is true or not but I do know I have seen talk of it).
Be that as it may, I believe the solution to this secondary issue is the exact same as the first solution. A possible modification would be the creation of an overarching mapping organization (similar to MotM comprised of judges from the Mapping scene with alotted professional gamer input) that would rank maps based on their usefulness in tournaments. Rankings could be on a letter grade scale (A to D where A is "Professional" ready and D is "Amateur" with the inbetweens falling into categories such as "Ladder", etc. . .). These grades would be determinned on a weighted average system that weighs things like race win rates at the a certian play level or higher, etc. . . I believe the model for this already exists within the BroodWar Liquipedia system and can be re-tooled for Starcraft 2.
2) Do you want to see more new community maps in competitive play?
Absolutely! Why wouldn't I want to see more maps, especially those designed by community members (who will have a great understanding of what players and spectators alike want), put into competitive play?
3) Would playing on new maps make the game more fun for you?
Of course! I love seeing variety in maps, and I do grow bored of the same old maps over and over. If new maps are not introduced at a relatively constant rate, than the game will stagnate and I would have little reason aside to continue paying attention to the Starcraft 2 world. New maps are a necessity to increase the longevity of the game.
(optional): 4) If you could present one idea to help the StarCraft community become more involved with the mapping community, what would it be? (ex: more map contests)
See above in question 1 -- This idea can be expanded to include a popular opinion vote on the rating a map deserves. I believe a weighted average is definitely the way to go with it.
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1) Why do you feel community melee maps are often being ignored or left in the dark? The main reason is the mapping community isn't big enough. If it was bigger you could have a lot of experimentation in maps and tournaments would get interested in the creative ones. Very few tournaments run new maps but since maps don't have a lot of success mappers mostly make maps similar to Blizzard ones (though claiming they suck). They believe if the map is similar to maps we have, tournaments will have more chance to pick them. Though unless maps have a big exposure thanks to Teamliquid mapping contest or were made for the GSL they will never be included in tournaments. Map of the month never had the chance to have a winning map included even though they had an agreement with ESL, except for Cloud Kingdom but it was already in the GSL and the ladder. It feels like a popularity contest and the mapping community isn't popular.
There's not much interaction between maps and players. The aim of Map of the month was to integrate maps into tournaments. So judges were conservative and picked safe maps that wouldn't differ too much from currently played maps. Motm's aim could have been to test maps or to ask players what features they liked but it wasn't. So as a result maps made for the contest weren't very original and players who were bored by standard ladder maps would look at community maps and only find similar maps to what they knew and found boring.
Another reason is because from times to times the community discredits itself. Like when mappers said the only balanced symmetry was the "VARS", the left-right symmetry. Or the FRB episode, maps with only 6 minerals and 1 gas. Or when every mapper was making 4 players rotational maps because positional imbalances were a good way to make games interesting. Or when mappers claimed the only way to balance maps were to have a big main, a small natural and a 3rd that would touch the main, and that it would promote epic games because players would only attack after reaching 200 food so battles would only be epic. Mappers often change their mind but it seems as if there's only 1 truth at a given time.
2) Do you want to see more new community maps in competitive play? Yes but not standard maps like 4 player rotational symmetry or copies of Shakuras Plateau. I'd like to see maps that encourage meta-game. Maps with features but not an exploit. Maps where people won't do the same builds as other maps. Maps like http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=310399.
3) Would playing on new maps make the game more fun for you? It'd only be more fun if maps are a bit different than Blizzard maps and encourage a specific meta-game. If it's a map where I can do the same builds I can just play ladder games.
4)If you could present one idea to help the StarCraft community become more involved with the mapping community, what would it be? A mode to run a "sit-and-go" inside Starcraft 2 like in Quake 4. You'd pick a small pool of maps and as soon as you have 4 or 8 players the custom tournament would start and players would be matched in a single elimination tourney. This way you could have both fun and competitive custom games against people of the same level. And you could throw custom melee maps in the pool.
Another idea is to have the ESV team run tournaments with melee maps from the community, not just their own maps. They have the contacts, the organization skills and the interests in mapping, they're the ones who can run this kind of tournament. I've tried to run such tournaments and I had players like Seiplo, Empire ho8ot, Utopi but the last tournaments I ran I only had 1 or 2 people signed in. It's too big for 1 person outside of the pro scene run tournaments like this.
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Here is my solution:
"The Crazy Ladder" would be a second ladder with parallel leagues just like the main Blizzard ladder (i.e. you could be diamond on the main ladder, and masters on the crazy ladder. The Crazy Ladder would have a giant map pool made up of entirely community made melee maps. After each game you would rate a map (like in the Blizz arcade beta). High ranked maps (and especially maps that receive high ranks from all three races) would appear more commonly in the crazy ladder, and maps that consistently ranked low would flush out and be replaced. Anyone could submit maps for inclusion, as long as the map followed basic melee map guidelines (re: symmetry, number of bases, etc.)
Every season, the top 5 most highly rated maps would be considered for inclusion in the main map pool, with maybe the one or two best balanced being included.
The reason this is a good solution is because it doesn't require additional staff or jobs or sponsors or other structural changes. It is democratic. It is non-mandatory--predominantly people interested in mapmaking will play on this ladder. It would be fun--people who play "by the seat of their pants" would have an advantage over people who have a meticulously created plan for each map--Catz would be the #1 GM.
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Since it seems there is going to be more separation between UMS maps and melee maps in the arcade update, Blizzard should have featured melee maps like they do custom games
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Well me Blazinghand and Seeker started this thing where hopefully we'll have notable TL members face off in a fun showmatch weekly, and all the maps we are using are community made maps (well, basically any new maps or maps that are good but not in ladder/tournaments).
So hopefully this will turn out successful and help grow the community mapmaking. Viewers can have fun watching their fellow TLers fight on new maps and thus see new (and potentially interesting) strategies/games. Mapmakers can see more people play games on their maps, and in a fun and social way. And the maps will get more exposure.
Thread: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=349308
Feedback will be taken of course lol. This is the first one, so we'll see how it goes ;O
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1. As mentioned before, there are a lot of them. Also people have a certain picture in mind what a good map needs and what not. now this is not necessarily a bad thing because you can't just do funky stuff all around and expect it to be playable. BUT this sort of standart towards maps has led to maps that are similar to each other. Expantions, ramps, the middle of a map and other aspects of a map, all of them need to meet certain standard. Now if you put all those "standards" together, since you want to make a good map, it leads to certain similarities that all maps have. I'm aware that it's not as extreme as I described here (lack of english T.T) but if you combine this feeling that I have (and probably others share) and the fact that there are so many really really good maps out there, it feels kind of boring to someone not as passionate about mapmaking.
2. Do you even need to ask?
3. It would certain strats that are strong on one map may be weaker on another, this leads to much diversity which is a cool thing :D. Especially as a spectator.
4. I think Map of the month is a great thing! Acually It motivates me to make maps that are worthy of participating (sadly I'm still faaaaaaaaaaaaaar away from doing maps like those I see in the contest). Things like that keep the mapmaking community running! A solution I see would be a priced tournament (a few hundred bucks as pricepool maybe) featuring submissions of the contest or maybe the last x winners of the contest. This would attract a lot of pros and just good players to play as they can win some $$ while the best mapmakers get some great information about how balanced their map is. Also this tournament could be a determing factor about what map gets the win, so those with the most epic games or the most balanced winratios. Sadly I can hardly see sponsors interested in such a tournament as the standard format probably attracts more viewers so we need to ask for it loudly .
Also I think that there is a lack of communication between mapmakers and the community. How many people actually know or even regularily visit mapster? I've once seen a show with superouman, Ironmansc (sorry I forgot the other 2 it's been a while T.T) they talked alot about mapmaking, also things that are mentioned in this threat. And there was a stream (by ESV I think) where they streamed the making of a map, sadly they had rather few viewers so the show got cancelled after a while. So I'd say the attempts are there but mapmaking doesn't get enough exposure (yes I know this stands already in the OP...). But people need to value the process of mapmaking. So I thought of maybe a documentary of a famous mapmaker making a map in a fast and enjoyable pace. Sort of "how I made cloud kingdom" in 20min. I think that the other attemps, such as talking for a few hours about maps or showing the hourlong process of making a decent map as done before is just to dry for someone that is just dabbling in mapmaking.
On June 02 2012 10:49 MarcusRife wrote:
Blizzard can create a "future map pool". They don't need to make any promises or commitments at first at the very least. Just post on their website a number of maps that have potential to become ladder maps. If people think there is a chance that a map will be introduced in the future they will play it. It plays to the hyper-competitive nature, people can get an edge if they are ahead on new maps first. When Blizzard announces new maps people jump all over them. Create polls, and perhaps get people to submit replays somehow to get gameplay data. All of this can be done "outside" the game i.e. no Battle.net changes.
Also, I think Blizzard is all for experimentation in maps. Have you seen some of the maps they put out? E.G. Arid Plateau.
At last I think this idea is super duper awesome! It's not costy and it only requires the responsible people to agree on doing it! :D
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On July 03 2012 01:41 Bobnoble wrote:
I've once seen a show with superouman, Ironmansc (sorry I forgot the other 2 it's been a while T.T) they talked alot about mapmaking, also things that are mentioned in this threat. And there was a stream (by ESV I think) where they streamed the making of a map, sadly they had rather few viewers so the show got cancelled after a while.
You're talking about the Mappers Show, which hasn't been aired in a month because Nerski (host) recently moved and has been very busy lately. It's not cancelled, just too busy. The 4th guy on the show is prodiG by the way.
And I think the stream you're talking about, where a map is being made live, is what I occasionally do on ESVTV (i'm the only mapper who map streams). I haven't gotten around to doing this because 1) the korean weekly is always on as well as the lame 24/7 rebroadcasts which soaks up every second of every day on that stream until the next live broadcast, and 2) I don't have a new map to work on.
I do what i can though.
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On July 03 2012 01:48 IronManSC wrote:Show nested quote +On July 03 2012 01:41 Bobnoble wrote:
I've once seen a show with superouman, Ironmansc (sorry I forgot the other 2 it's been a while T.T) they talked alot about mapmaking, also things that are mentioned in this threat. And there was a stream (by ESV I think) where they streamed the making of a map, sadly they had rather few viewers so the show got cancelled after a while.
You're talking about the Mappers Show, which hasn't been aired in a month because Nerski (host) recently moved and has been very busy lately. It's not cancelled, just too busy. The 4th guy on the show is prodiG by the way. And I think the stream you're talking about, where a map is being made live, is what I occasionally do on ESVTV (i'm the only mapper who map streams). I haven't gotten around to doing this because 1) the korean weekly is always on as well as the lame 24/7 rebroadcasts which soaks up every second of every day on that stream until the next live broadcast, and 2) I don't have a new map to work on. I do what i can though.
I didn't realize that it was you making the show! Shame on me! And thanks for the update
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Just as a friendly reminder, when are you planning on forwarding the posts in this thread to Blizzard, IronMan? It seems to me that for us this is one of the most important conversations that can be had, and it looks like it's on the verge of falling flat before it's ever started. I'd love to be wrong though.
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On July 03 2012 03:15 NewSunshine wrote: Just as a friendly reminder, when are you planning on forwarding the posts in this thread to Blizzard, IronMan? It seems to me that for us this is one of the most important conversations that can be had, and it looks like it's on the verge of falling flat before it's ever started. I'd love to be wrong though.
I forwarded it to them a week ago. No response. So just expect the worst and hope for the best.
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On July 03 2012 04:11 IronManSC wrote:Show nested quote +On July 03 2012 03:15 NewSunshine wrote: Just as a friendly reminder, when are you planning on forwarding the posts in this thread to Blizzard, IronMan? It seems to me that for us this is one of the most important conversations that can be had, and it looks like it's on the verge of falling flat before it's ever started. I'd love to be wrong though. I forwarded it to them a week ago. No response. So just expect the worst and hope for the best. Oh I see. In that case, I can do nothing but echo that notion. Thanks for taking the initiative though
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1) Why do you feel community melee maps are often being ignored or left in the dark? Just a guess - too many maps, not good enough filters to weed out the bad ones.
2) Do you want to see more new community maps in competitive play? From spectator point of view i only want maps as good as possible - some of them are bound to come from community tho - so yes.
3) Would playing on new maps make the game more fun for you? For someone with under 100 league wins, there are too many maps in my custom game menus already - so cant really tell.
(optional): 4) If you could present one idea to help the StarCraft community become more involved with the mapping Last edit: 2012-06-03 08:37:22 community, what would it be? (ex: more map contests)
Some sort of easy system for trying out new maps 1) Small-medium sized pool of maps ( 8-16 ) , chosen by admins who can filter out the obviously bad ones. 2) Each week 2-6 maps get added, 2-6 get removed ( based on number of votes, rating and weeks-in-pool ) 3) Players rate the maps.
This could be a initial filter that more players might want to participate in, next step would be get the maps that get good feedback to something like TLMC
Whole thing being 100% ingame, with (maybe even mmr based) matchmaking, and random maps - would get more feedback by order of magnitude - but perhaps a website-only with weekly TL/Reddit threads would work too. ( without matchmaking smaller map-pool is essential, to get enough people to play the same maps at the same time )
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