EPTI really think it's a great idea to have more map analysis from replays. Great initiative.
[Feedback] Unifying The SC2 Map Community - Page 4
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Gfire
United States1699 Posts
I really think it's a great idea to have more map analysis from replays. Great initiative. | ||
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BreakfastBurrito
United States893 Posts
2: No, not if they are like Cloud Kingdom, korhal, etc 3: yes if they were good/interesting | ||
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IronManSC
United States2119 Posts
On July 17 2012 16:43 BreakfastBurrito wrote: 1: IMO all ESV maps I've played so far are buggy and bad, such as wall-offs being impossible and costing progamers the series. Prime team makes good maps though. (Of course this is subjective) lol? What maps? What bugs? What's bad about each ESV map you've played? More importantly, which maps have you actually played? What "discoveries" have you made that e-sports hasn't figured out yet? To me it sounds like the only encounter you had with an ESV map was when you, perhaps, spectated the 'ESV Vicious' game where thorzain discovered a bug on the wall-off ramp, because your entire argument is based on that one single game, so to say all the ESV maps are buggy and bad is extremely laughable. Details please. | ||
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nojok
France15845 Posts
2)&3) Yes I really want new maps, the map cycle of Bnet is too slow. 4) I spent 10 mins thinking about it and I can't think about something except a low level league like plat diamond. There is a lack of teams in SC2. | ||
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fenX
France127 Posts
Because there a gap between mapmaking community and pro gamers, so most of maps end up nor being tested enough, not being balanced for high level play, and ultimately not being picked up by big tournaments and leagues. 2) Do you want to see more new community maps in competitive play? Absolutely not, I want only Blizzard maps (sarcasm). Yeah more community maps, of course. 3) Would playing on new maps make the game more fun for you? Yes. 4) If you could present one idea to help the StarCraft community become more involved with the mapping community, what would it be? Some kind of joint mapmaking and gaming league, where players play on a bunch of new maps and rate them, at the end of the season not only the players advance to the finals but also the best maps (based on ratings and downvotes and map picks). | ||
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BreakfastBurrito
United States893 Posts
On July 17 2012 17:07 IronManSC wrote: lol? What maps? What bugs? What's bad about each ESV map you've played? More importantly, which maps have you actually played? What "discoveries" have you made that e-sports hasn't figured out yet? To me it sounds like the only encounter you had with an ESV map was when you, perhaps, spectated the 'ESV Vicious' game where thorzain discovered a bug on the wall-off ramp, because your entire argument is based on that one single game, so to say all the ESV maps are buggy and bad is extremely laughable. Details please. No, not if you are gonna be so impolite and elitist and assume that's what my entire thought process was based off of~ the ESV viscious is just one of several times when I've seen a walloff fail in a pro game. You ask for criticism and then are so shocked when you hear something that's not a suggestion that mapmakers should have a gold statue with their name on it in the middle of every map. I went out of my way to be polite and respectfully say that I prefer prime maps to ESV maps instead of just being a troll/flamer about it, would be nice if you could show some respect. One thing I'll concede is that when i said "bad" I didn't explain that relative to Blizzard maps. "bad" is still pretty good. I'm sad when I get Cloud Kingdom on ladder but not as sad as I would be if Shakuras wasn't vetoed. Anyway, despite you thinking I'm second class because I don't dick around in the galaxy editor, I'll try to explain why I like prime more. (I don't like every prime map either, atlantis spaceship is too big, zerg can macro away) Metropolis, Bel'Shir (in its current state, before it was too open) and Daybreak are, to me, the most fun maps to watch (and play) It's the least amount of "frustration" as far as annoying siege tank/elevator spots or the chance to get gimmickd out by some BS cheese that is map specific. I think the rocks at the nat of metropolis make for some interesting situations. The entrance to the nat on CK is so narrow that every protoss can wall it off incredibly quickly and easily. FFE and 2 base allins are that much easier. Ohana's attack paths are so skinny. Deathballs galore. Korhal had that awful siege situation and by the time it was fixed it was out of circulation. Ironically that was one of my fav ESV maps. As for the prime maps, I think the rocks at the nat of metropolis make for some interesting situations. Daybreak's setup on the nat is cool. Prime maps just more fun and balanced to me. You have to pick a third strategically, not just move your army so that it covers 2 bases. And I never said I made discoveries E-Sports hadn't made, you downright made that up yourself. | ||
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Fatam
1986 Posts
No comment on the ESV maps being 100% perfect every-single-time but afaik they have a decently tough testing regiment for them before they are released (has to have several sets of expert eyes see it, lots of games played on it, etc.). I'm sure there have been prime maps that have had bugs as well if you looked hard enough. You could try to claim that one team -always- has better maps than the other.. but really the more accurate thing to say would be that both mapmaking sources have some really great maps and some that aren't as good. Saying that either team isn't capable of making great maps would be a bit of a stretch given the history. | ||
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Stow.Wif
France67 Posts
1) Why do you feel community melee maps are often being ignored or left in the dark? Because most of the play is done via ladder matchmaking. As simple as that. Also because the social aspect of bnet is so poor. 2) Do you want to see more new community maps in competitive play? Yes, yes and yes. 3) Would playing on new maps make the game more fun for you? Yes, and to a great amount. (optional): 4) If you could present one idea to help the StarCraft community become more involved with the mapping community, what would it be? (ex: more map contests) I would like Blizzard to propose a 2nd map pool for ladder, composed of community maps (from contests for example). The idea would be that players would have as many vetos as there are maps for this pool, maybe all maps being vetoed by default. But when two players are matched with such a map unvetoed, the map would be taken in this pool. This would open the possibility to discover new maps while hitting the matchmaking button. | ||
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Gfire
United States1699 Posts
On July 17 2012 20:07 BreakfastBurrito wrote: No, not if you are gonna be so impolite and elitist and assume that's what my entire thought process was based off of~ the ESV viscious is just one of several times when I've seen a walloff fail in a pro game. You ask for criticism and then are so shocked when you hear something that's not a suggestion that mapmakers should have a gold statue with their name on it in the middle of every map. I went out of my way to be polite and respectfully say that I prefer prime maps to ESV maps instead of just being a troll/flamer about it, would be nice if you could show some respect. One thing I'll concede is that when i said "bad" I didn't explain that relative to Blizzard maps. "bad" is still pretty good. I'm sad when I get Cloud Kingdom on ladder but not as sad as I would be if Shakuras wasn't vetoed. Anyway, despite you thinking I'm second class because I don't dick around in the galaxy editor, I'll try to explain why I like prime more. (I don't like every prime map either, atlantis spaceship is too big, zerg can macro away) Metropolis, Bel'Shir (in its current state, before it was too open) and Daybreak are, to me, the most fun maps to watch (and play) It's the least amount of "frustration" as far as annoying siege tank/elevator spots or the chance to get gimmickd out by some BS cheese that is map specific. I think the rocks at the nat of metropolis make for some interesting situations. The entrance to the nat on CK is so narrow that every protoss can wall it off incredibly quickly and easily. FFE and 2 base allins are that much easier. Ohana's attack paths are so skinny. Deathballs galore. Korhal had that awful siege situation and by the time it was fixed it was out of circulation. Ironically that was one of my fav ESV maps. As for the prime maps, I think the rocks at the nat of metropolis make for some interesting situations. Daybreak's setup on the nat is cool. Prime maps just more fun and balanced to me. You have to pick a third strategically, not just move your army so that it covers 2 bases. And I never said I made discoveries E-Sports hadn't made, you downright made that up yourself. Balance concerns and preferences are one thing. We get tons of those telling us to go in all different directions. You of course have a right to your opinion on that. However, some elaboration on the bugs would be nice. | ||
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lawol
91 Posts
On July 17 2012 17:07 IronManSC wrote: lol? What maps? What bugs? What's bad about each ESV map you've played? More importantly, which maps have you actually played? What "discoveries" have you made that e-sports hasn't figured out yet? To me it sounds like the only encounter you had with an ESV map was when you, perhaps, spectated the 'ESV Vicious' game where thorzain discovered a bug on the wall-off ramp, because your entire argument is based on that one single game, so to say all the ESV maps are buggy and bad is extremely laughable. Details please. Ironman - until people like you leave, the community is fucked. You and people like you are just that high above everyone else that you mask the fact you just want YOUR maps exposed. You mask it under the whole "expose the community" bs; when, lets be honest, all youre really saying is "give more exposure to the 2-3 established map making teams like esv". just look at how you reply to that guy. and im not even commenting on the maps you guys make. its the personalities behind them that are the problem. | ||
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Gfire
United States1699 Posts
On July 18 2012 01:48 lawol wrote: Ironman - until people like you leave, the community is fucked. You and people like you are just that high above everyone else that you mask the fact you just want YOUR maps exposed. You mask it under the whole "expose the community" bs; when, lets be honest, all youre really saying is "give more exposure to the 2-3 established map making teams like esv". just look at how you reply to that guy. and im not even commenting on the maps you guys make. its the personalities behind them that are the problem. Woah, dude, chill. Ironman can come across a jerk in times of conflict (as can many of the "powerful" people in the community, sadly) but there's really nothing to say he doesn't care about the community or only wants his own maps exposed. I generally think that it's a much larger problem with the community as a whole, that big names or people with high post counts kind of walk all over anyone who makes them mad or says something wrong. Doesn't mean they don't care about the community, they just kind of exclude anyone who misbehaves or disrespects them, or, in some cases, even just says something they find questionable or don't like. | ||
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NewSunshine
United States5938 Posts
On July 17 2012 20:07 BreakfastBurrito wrote: + Show Spoiler + No, not if you are gonna be so impolite and elitist and assume that's what my entire thought process was based off of~ the ESV viscious is just one of several times when I've seen a walloff fail in a pro game. You ask for criticism and then are so shocked when you hear something that's not a suggestion that mapmakers should have a gold statue with their name on it in the middle of every map. I went out of my way to be polite and respectfully say that I prefer prime maps to ESV maps instead of just being a troll/flamer about it, would be nice if you could show some respect. One thing I'll concede is that when i said "bad" I didn't explain that relative to Blizzard maps. "bad" is still pretty good. I'm sad when I get Cloud Kingdom on ladder but not as sad as I would be if Shakuras wasn't vetoed. Anyway, despite you thinking I'm second class because I don't dick around in the galaxy editor, I'll try to explain why I like prime more. (I don't like every prime map either, atlantis spaceship is too big, zerg can macro away) Metropolis, Bel'Shir (in its current state, before it was too open) and Daybreak are, to me, the most fun maps to watch (and play) It's the least amount of "frustration" as far as annoying siege tank/elevator spots or the chance to get gimmickd out by some BS cheese that is map specific. I think the rocks at the nat of metropolis make for some interesting situations. The entrance to the nat on CK is so narrow that every protoss can wall it off incredibly quickly and easily. FFE and 2 base allins are that much easier. Ohana's attack paths are so skinny. Deathballs galore. Korhal had that awful siege situation and by the time it was fixed it was out of circulation. Ironically that was one of my fav ESV maps. As for the prime maps, I think the rocks at the nat of metropolis make for some interesting situations. Daybreak's setup on the nat is cool. Prime maps just more fun and balanced to me. You have to pick a third strategically, not just move your army so that it covers 2 bases. And I never said I made discoveries E-Sports hadn't made, you downright made that up yourself. IronMan's post could have used more tact, but you're not making yourself look any better either. As for these "discoveries", he's referring to the bugs you claim are in all of ESV's maps, that somehow the Korean Weekly, as well as any other tournament, somehow didn't find. To be fair, you haven't actually listed these bugs, you've seen probably 1 bug report(the walloff on Vicious), and from there ran on to say that all of their maps were bugged. Yes, Vicious had a bug, but since then the testing phase for their maps has become much longer and much more rigorous, to assure the quality of the maps as much as possible. You are free to prefer CruX's maps all you want, nobody's shoving ESV down your throat, but honestly, your argument doesn't appear to have much substance. Let that come from me, and not IronMan, ignore the personalities. | ||
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IronManSC
United States2119 Posts
On July 18 2012 01:48 lawol wrote: Ironman - until people like you leave, the community is fucked. You and people like you are just that high above everyone else that you mask the fact you just want YOUR maps exposed. You mask it under the whole "expose the community" bs; when, lets be honest, all youre really saying is "give more exposure to the 2-3 established map making teams like esv". just look at how you reply to that guy. and im not even commenting on the maps you guys make. its the personalities behind them that are the problem. Ok, now look at how you responded to me. ?? Anyways, this has been explained before. On a live episode of 'mappers', I stated that in these current times, the only way to be more successful in map-making is to get on a map team, like Crux, ESV, or TPW, otherwise you don't have a very high chance. Why? Because map teams have more resources to getting their maps out into the public (I.e. TPW and NASL, ESV and the Korean Weekly, etc). Other mappers have agreed to that. In fact, any mapmaker will tell you this. That's just the way things are today - for now anyways. Why? Because the community does not have enough exposure as a whole, which was the whole point in creating this thread. So, according to your implication, me saying "give more exposure to the 2-3 established map making teams like esv" is not being biased because I am merely including every map team, hence the obvious "2-3 map teams." All said and done, it personally does not make any sense why I would be self-centered and yet include as many mappers as possible into this. I think deep down in every mapmaker's soul, he wants his own maps to get exposed, spotlighted, played on by pros, and so forth. This is nothing new and out of the ordinary. If you honestly believe that I'm trying to make it all about me, and if you want to use the argument that I am getting all these interviews about my maps because I want to get my name out there, then go for it, but I assure you that I never went looking for these things. I never asked to get interviewed. I never asked Blizzard to make a blog about jojosc2news interviewing me. They came to me. I honestly don't know why people keep wanting to interview me anyways. I made one good map for sc2, big woopi. In general, from time to time, some of us might express that 'want' more than others, but we all have it whether you or another mapmaker wants to admit it or not. But, retracing the first paragraph of this response, I am not concerned about MY maps. This is a community-thing, not a self-indulging scam. I don't know where you're getting all this from, or why you think I am "masking" anything because I am trying to gather community mapmaking feedback and forward it to blizzard. Lastly, you are responding to my previous response that was directed at the breakfast dude, where nothing in my response reflects a "me myself and I" attitude. When someone says all ESV maps are bugged and bad, anyone should have a right to step in and ask why, especially when ESV maps have become more popular as of lately and are amongst the best, according to the majority of the community. You are right, I can be harsh though, and usually I try to be with good reason. For a couple real examples: 1) Some people keep showing the wrong Ohana stats, and I kindly tell them about it. Then it happens again. Sorry, but now i'm angry. (example- red bull battlegrounds displayed the most lopsided statistics for ohana, and even the wrong map image. They said Ohana was imba for PvT, with a record of something like 14-24, when in reality it was 39-39). Again, it angered me, and rightfully so. If you create something, you'd expect it to be accurate and right for the public. 2) Tournaments like MLG removing the islands from Metropolis without the consent of LSPrime. Now all of us are offended that our work gets played with and we're not even told about it. I don't feel like typing anymore. I hope you understand more clearly that this is not about me. Just because I am asking some guy in a random corner of the world why he thinks all the ESV maps are bugged and bad, does not somehow conclude that I am self-centered. | ||
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BreakfastBurrito
United States893 Posts
On July 18 2012 04:52 IronManSC wrote: Ok, now look at how you responded to me. ?? Anyways, this has been explained before. On a live episode of 'mappers', I stated that in these current times, the only way to be more successful in map-making is to get on a map team, like Crux, ESV, or TPW, otherwise you don't have a very high chance. Why? Because map teams have more resources to getting their maps out into the public (I.e. TPW and NASL, ESV and the Korean Weekly, etc). Other mappers have agreed to that. In fact, any mapmaker will tell you this. That's just the way things are today - for now anyways. Why? Because the community does not have enough exposure as a whole, which was the whole point in creating this thread. So, according to your implication, me saying "give more exposure to the 2-3 established map making teams like esv" is not being biased because I am merely including every map team, hence the obvious "2-3 map teams." All said and done, it personally does not make any sense why I would be self-centered and yet include as many mappers as possible into this. I think deep down in every mapmaker's soul, he wants his own maps to get exposed, spotlighted, played on by pros, and so forth. This is nothing new and out of the ordinary. If you honestly believe that I'm trying to make it all about me, and if you want to use the argument that I am getting all these interviews about my maps because I want to get my name out there, then go for it, but I assure you that I never went looking for these things. I never asked to get interviewed. I never asked Blizzard to make a blog about jojosc2news interviewing me. They came to me. I honestly don't know why people keep wanting to interview me anyways. I made one good map for sc2, big woopi. In general, from time to time, some of us might express that 'want' more than others, but we all have it whether you or another mapmaker wants to admit it or not. But, retracing the first paragraph of this response, I am not concerned about MY maps. This is a community-thing, not a self-indulging scam. I don't know where you're getting all this from, or why you think I am "masking" anything because I am trying to gather community mapmaking feedback and forward it to blizzard. Lastly, you are responding to my previous response that was directed at the breakfast dude, where nothing in my response reflects a "me myself and I" attitude. When someone says all ESV maps are bugged and bad, anyone should have a right to step in and ask why, especially when ESV maps have become more popular as of lately and are amongst the best, according to the majority of the community. You are right, I can be harsh though, and usually I try to be with good reason. For a couple real examples: 1) Some people keep showing the wrong Ohana stats, and I kindly tell them about it. Then it happens again. Sorry, but now i'm angry. (example- red bull battlegrounds displayed the most lopsided statistics for ohana, and even the wrong map image. They said Ohana was imba for PvT, with a record of something like 14-24, when in reality it was 39-39). Again, it angered me, and rightfully so. If you create something, you'd expect it to be accurate and right for the public. 2) Tournaments like MLG removing the islands from Metropolis without the consent of LSPrime. Now all of us are offended that our work gets played with and we're not even told about it. I don't feel like typing anymore. I hope you understand more clearly that this is not about me. Just because I am asking some guy in a random corner of the world why he thinks all the ESV maps are bugged and bad, does not somehow conclude that I am self-centered. Fine, since I can't find any evidence I'll take back that they are bugged. I'll change my statement to that I simply prefer prime maps to ESV maps most of the time. So, you're right, and what I said was wrong. Yeah I kept stats out of it because people think a small inequality is proof that a map is imbalanced, and it must be irritating for them to say that. When I posted yesterday I suppose I didn't consider that you mapmakers put a lot of effort into the maps and for me to dismiss them ALL was unfair and cause for anger. Still think you were a little harsh TT | ||
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Semmo
Korea (South)627 Posts
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Gfire
United States1699 Posts
On July 18 2012 09:21 kim9067 wrote: friendship <3 <3 <3 Let's all hold hands and sing around the campfire. | ||
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NewSunshine
United States5938 Posts
On July 18 2012 10:03 Gfire wrote: <3 <3 Let's all hold hands and sing around the campfire. But I don't like singing D: I'll take friendship though.  | ||
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Karawasa
United States58 Posts
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Gfire
United States1699 Posts
On July 18 2012 13:08 Karawasa wrote: The reality is that you melee mapmakers are your own base. UMS players don't care about what you guys make. Hardcore players are content with official maps. Whose left that wants to play what your maps? Pro players being content doesn't matter. If the community wants new maps, Blizzard and the tournaments will want to change them, and the pro players will play on them. We are sort of our own base, but if you go to the community with maps they will be interested. The main problem is actually just that very few people visit the mapping forum. | ||
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NewSunshine
United States5938 Posts
On July 18 2012 13:08 Karawasa wrote: The reality is that you melee mapmakers are your own base. UMS players don't care about what you guys make. Hardcore players are content with official maps. Whose left that wants to play what your maps? What would you use to define "official"? I hardly think Pro players would be content to be stuck with maps like Shattered Temple and Metalopolis still, in fact most Blizzard maps are proclaimed to be terrible by the player base. I realize that most of the people who play on a serious level don't complain as much, but merely being content with maps that most people dislike is not enough, honestly. It's the mapmaking teams, ESV, CruX, and to an extent TPW, that have improved the map pools of nearly every event dramatically, and in turn the quality of the games. We're nowhere near the point where the status quo is acceptable, quite frankly. | ||
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