EPTDamage-dealing hazards are going to be pretty tricky to implement in order to prevent them from being a massive swing factor while still being relevant. Lava as implemented by Blizzard on Burning Tide is an instant-kill and the shredder from the previews appears to do too much damage too fast to be neutral. Toning down the damage output might work.
[D] Stage Hazards - Page 2
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dangthatsright
1160 Posts
Damage-dealing hazards are going to be pretty tricky to implement in order to prevent them from being a massive swing factor while still being relevant. Lava as implemented by Blizzard on Burning Tide is an instant-kill and the shredder from the previews appears to do too much damage too fast to be neutral. Toning down the damage output might work. | ||
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DarkPlasmaBall
United States45341 Posts
Seriously? | ||
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shizaep
Canada2920 Posts
I'd like to see some good mapmakers make a melee map in the editor to utilize some of these features and throw it out there to see how people react to it. And while we're here, I have to mention that I'm a little bit underwhelmed with how conservative the SC2 melee maps are. I understand that balance is the biggest factor, but I definitely think that at least some cool things could be added that don't wreck the balance. (Like mineral patches blocking a path to an expansion like they had in Brood War sometimes, ect) You know, just something that you don't really see everyday, that changes the gameplay of the map ever so slightly and is unique to just that one specific map. You may have to build your strategy around it, similar to how you tailor certain builds to certain maps. Don't know if I'm getting off-topic or not, but it's just something I'll throw into the discussion pot. Like, I just had an idea while typing this, say that in the center of the map there was a lava river that had low-tide and high tide. At all points in the game, there would be bridges(ie. standard attack paths) that the players can use, but at regular intervals additional flank paths would be revealed. I think some really cool tactics could be built around that. Like some people in this thread have already said, I definitely think that this should at least be tested by mapmakers/good players to see if it could ever be a playable idea, instead of just knocking it right away. | ||
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Cokefreak
Finland8095 Posts
On May 29 2012 06:29 opisska wrote: Is is really necessary to reitarte the negative opinions so many times in every single thread about somthing funky? There are people that are against anything non-corservative, they are quite numerous. We get it. I do not see the need to hear from every single of you! Anyway, I think that a particularly good idea is the "neutral shredder" part - because I have thought about it already a lot. It does not have to be shredder, it can be siege tanks, cannons, whatever causes damage. The point is, exactly, to make army movement more difficult. They don't even need to control a significant part of the map. It is enough if they control the shortest path to your enemy. They don't have to be particularly strong in DPS, neither (but could be very well invincible). This way, if you simply a-move or blindly rally reinforcements on such a map, it could be a very bad idea, if they go in a single file around a couple of siege tanks. It is probably not something that SC2 really desperately needs right now, but it could add a little bit of extra skill required. So you don't want to hear any ideas/opinions opposed to the one you hold? How are we going to have a discussion then (hint: this thread is tagged as [D] as in discussion. | ||
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DifuntO
Greece2376 Posts
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DoubleReed
United States4130 Posts
Randomness: What randomness? The lava would be timed. There's nothing random about lava or shredders. If you're chilling in a lava spot when it goes up, that's obviously your fault. The big flashing red lights should warn you. Sheesh. Balance: What Balance problems? If you're going to say something like this, could you please clarify? You can't just shout "BALANCE!" and have that be a post. This is TeamLiquid, guys. Noncompetitive: Again, could you clarify? Why are stage hazards not allowed in an competitive environment? Any pro that would be caught would either be an idiot or be forced into bad positions, which would be cool. | ||
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Targe
United Kingdom14103 Posts
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PlacidPanda
United States246 Posts
Just look at SSBB, great fighting game, loads of fun, but the biggest problem with the game is that the maps are too gimmicky which makes competitive play very random and frustrating. EDIT: also lava would greatly favor terran because of the synergy of medivacs and the fact that they can lift their buildings up/salvage them. | ||
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DoubleReed
United States4130 Posts
On May 29 2012 06:46 PlacidPanda wrote: Starcraft 2 is a competitive game, Diablo single player is not. Albeit there may be a time when pvp becomes relevant, but i guarantee you there wont be any "stage hazards" in those games. Just look at SSBB, great fighting game, loads of fun, but the biggest problem with the game is that the maps are too gimmicky which makes competitive play very random and frustrating. ... SSBB's biggest problem was not that the maps were too gimmicky. Anyone who knows about SSBB knows that. | ||
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S_SienZ
1878 Posts
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GhandiEAGLE
United States20754 Posts
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MuteZephyr
Lithuania448 Posts
EDIT: A few simple examples of how balance can go awry: -What happens to creep in the lava area, does it die? Zerg mobility is severely reduced. -Terran sometimes relies on siege tanks and creating fortified positions. Having lava rise could force Terran to move far more often then they want, exposing them for attack at clearly announced intervals without the opponent even having to scout. These are very superficial too, the issues get deeper when you start talking about certain timings no longer being possible, etc. Lava rising sounds a bit extreme to me, but maybe regions of the map where units move slower (maps with traversable water come to mind) so that holding on to critical regions is more difficult, encouraging different gameplay styles would be fun to try. Don't know if it would work, but I'd be willing to give it a shot as long as the focus was still on traditional maps. | ||
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Talin
Montenegro10532 Posts
I'd love to see more of this stuff in a different classic / skill-based RTS though. | ||
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PlacidPanda
United States246 Posts
On May 29 2012 06:47 DoubleReed wrote: ... SSBB's biggest problem was not that the maps were too gimmicky. Anyone who knows about SSBB knows that. For competitive play? Yes it was, it caused problems because of different maps being legal in different parts of the world and the fact that almost all of the maps were banned because they were too gimmicky. | ||
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dangthatsright
1160 Posts
On May 29 2012 06:45 Targe wrote: Maybe bring it into a custom map, but leave it out of competitive play and ladder, doesnt really fit. Nobody really knows until it's tested, either the specific things the OP mentioned or other stage hazards (doesn't even have to be stage hazards). I would agree up to that the testing probably should not be done in major tournaments or ladder. Maybe MotM? | ||
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c0ldwinter
United States238 Posts
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DoubleReed
United States4130 Posts
On May 29 2012 06:51 PlacidPanda wrote: For competitive play? Yes it was, it caused problems because of different maps being legal in different parts of the world and the fact that almost all of the maps were banned because they were too gimmicky. And even after that it still had awful issues in competitive play. | ||
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Talin
Montenegro10532 Posts
But it's just not Starcraft. | ||
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Nokshalees
United States120 Posts
Would force rerouting of armies and have map controk Or force crazy stuff like air t/v/z As cool as it sounds I doubt this would be good in the competitive aspect | ||
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BrosephBrostar
United States445 Posts
Another idea that's not a hazard but still might be cool is a watchtower that gives vision of a different area of the map. I'm sure something like this would be easy to make with the map editor. I think people are imagining a map where lava would randomly kill all your units. Realistically it would be something like a map where there's a path between the 3rd and the 4th expos that becomes unpathable every 5 minutes. There's an in game clock that you can see so there would be no excuse for you losing units by surprise. | ||
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