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On April 24 2012 21:29 DYEAlabaster wrote:Show nested quote +On April 24 2012 21:22 bbm wrote:On April 24 2012 18:17 DYEAlabaster wrote:On April 23 2012 07:43 Diamond wrote:On April 23 2012 07:40 Random_Guy09 wrote:
Problem can be fixed as you guys will do at least someone found it. Your a human being sometimes you make a mistake. We're not robots that can be programmed to do everything perfectly. Shouldn't be a lot of flaming to come from it. At least now you can add that to your check list of things to do as a map tester. Hopefully you don't get discouraged about this one little bug that was found and keep making maps. :D I agree mistakes happen, but with our maps being used worldwide we need to implement stricter testing. It's pretty strong testing as is but some simple things like making sure wall offs work right were getting skipped. We will fix it, and we will learn from it  Given what happened with Vicious at Dreamhack, do you feel that this will hamper the validity of using 'non-tested' maps in major tournaments? It seemed more a liability than a boon to have these maps in the first place... It will, but the more important thing to take away from DH is that no pros like playing on maps they don't know. I watched a fair bit (not all of, tbf) the series, and saw about three maps on vicious and one on the snow one. I don't blame them for chosing maps they're familiar with, however, what can we do about it? Props to the ESV weekly for having a pool of fresh maps, if it wasn't for them we wouldn't have Cloud Kingdom rocking GSL, MLG, DH, ladder, et al. But it would be unfair to have, say, a large LAN on a small pool of only new and (comparatively) unestablished maps. Weeklys and longer seasons can adjust around changes better (eg: the swift removal of calm before storm from GSL), so I'd like to see more variation in things like playhem and go4sc2 The thing that bothers me most is the reaction that pros such as Sase and Naniwa has towards these maps. They outright scorned the organization for using new maps. I'll remind you that Cloud Kingdom didn't work through the ESV weekly- rather, Team Liquid helped make that map what it is (along with KC, and Ohana... all the 'tournament' ESV maps) So I'm not sure if ESV is successful, or if Team Liquid is good for marketing and quality control. Results at DreamHack speak to the latter, and I wanted to have Diamond's/ProdiG's thoughts on that. We can see from how Morrow/Sase got screwed because they felt they needed to veto different maps and instantly got gibbed on these maps, etc., or the above error. Just wondering about what ESV feels about their own validity after a slap in the face like this.
ESV's validity? As the only foreign organization still standing to make a dent in the terrible map pool by blizzard? As the admins of an immensely popular tournament in the Korean weekly? As the guys who are fighting to keep SC2 fresh and entertaining despite receiving no praise when they succeed and heaps of scorn when they have a slip-up?
The issue here is that without community support, new maps can't get tested. And pro players don't play on maps they don't have to. This means ESV has to supply in-house all the testing it can for a map, but when you've got a team of mappers churning out new map concepts, there's no way you can test everything. In this case, the mapper did double check the map, and a known graphical bug in the editor invalidated his check. To me, the mapper did practice due diligence. And if the community ever got behind mappers instead of alternating between ignoring them and dumping on them, this bug wouldn't have affected any games.
The only way to get pros to change maps is to force them. And the only way to have enough leverage to force them is to either pay them or withhold pay (in the form of enforced games on new maps). ESV has tried paying them, with the Korean Weekly, and its done well. You can see statistically that players who came up through the KW have an advantage over their Code A/S counterparts on these maps, because they've played them before. Non-GSL tournaments often leave map choice up to the players, and this causes new maps to always be ignored. Force the pros to play on new maps and they'll practice in advance, and any bugs would get caught in advance.
All that being said, of course Diamond is going to come out and accept full responsibility. He's a very upstanding guy and I'm sure he means it when he says testing will be even more rigorous than it already is.
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The best way to fix part of this problem and to get pros to train and play on these maps would be alot smaller map pools. The DH map pool had 9 maps, impossible to practice every map for every matchup and you also will basically always veto out the new maps.
With a 5 map map pool pros could focus a lot more on each map in preperation and practice map specific strategies and then you would see games played on new maps and also you'd probably see more variety and higher quality in regards to the strategies used.
If you don't force the pros, they will play the same shit on the same maps forever.
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I love the detail of these maps
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On April 24 2012 21:52 iGrok wrote:
the mapper did double check the map, and a known graphical bug in the editor invalidated his check.
To me, the mapper did practice due diligence.
While I agree with everything you say, if it's a known graphical bug in the editor, then before you release it to tournaments (especially large ones with lots of eyes watching such as DH) you NEED to put extenisve time into testing it in game. This isn't the first time this has happened iirc (the map where you could drop/blink on a supposedly non pathable beach area).
Obviously, mistakes have been made, will be rectified, and hopefully we won't see this happen in the future. But if it was a known bug that pathing is glitched sometimes in the editor, I wouldn't say that vicious' release cycle was subject to due diligence in testing.
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On April 24 2012 23:47 bbm wrote:Show nested quote +On April 24 2012 21:52 iGrok wrote:
the mapper did double check the map, and a known graphical bug in the editor invalidated his check. While I agree with everything you say, if it's a known graphical bug in the editor, then before you release it to tournaments (especially large ones with lots of eyes watching such as DH) you NEED to put extenisve time into testing it in game. This isn't the first time this has happened iirc (the map where you could drop/blink on a supposedly non pathable beach area). Obviously, mistakes have been made, will be rectified, and hopefully we won't see this happen in the future. But if it was a known bug that pathing is glitched sometimes in the editor, I wouldn't say that vicious' release cycle was subject to due diligence in testing.
It's a known graphical error. But extremely difficult to detect. Basically, its the equivalent of finding both Bubbles the Powerpuff Girl toys in the below picture:
+ Show Spoiler +
Except in this case you can only use your hands and feel through the toys, while your eyes are blind.
prodiG said that he (as most mappers do and should) used a Copy/Paste method to make this map, and then tested one of the entrances. This should be more than sufficient, and if you had asked any mapper prior to this, they would have agreed that it was sufficient. Going forward, they know that Copy/Paste has even more issues than previously known, and can deal with that.
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On April 23 2012 07:11 prodiG wrote:
That's probably the best straight-forward solution, yeah. Pathing paint has a great way of not showing up in the editor for me half the time either so I still think it's equally unreliable.
It happens to me a lot too ; it might not be the same problem, but I found painted pathing disappeared when I went from editor view to game view then switched back to editor view, in which it's supposed to appear but doesn't. The solution is to go back to another layer (terrain, units, doodads...) then back to pathing layer, where painted pathing should appear.
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WEll THorzain seems to think this map is bugged. What is the issue with this map? What is the bug?
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On April 24 2012 21:52 iGrok wrote:Show nested quote +On April 24 2012 21:29 DYEAlabaster wrote:On April 24 2012 21:22 bbm wrote:On April 24 2012 18:17 DYEAlabaster wrote:On April 23 2012 07:43 Diamond wrote:On April 23 2012 07:40 Random_Guy09 wrote:
Problem can be fixed as you guys will do at least someone found it. Your a human being sometimes you make a mistake. We're not robots that can be programmed to do everything perfectly. Shouldn't be a lot of flaming to come from it. At least now you can add that to your check list of things to do as a map tester. Hopefully you don't get discouraged about this one little bug that was found and keep making maps. :D I agree mistakes happen, but with our maps being used worldwide we need to implement stricter testing. It's pretty strong testing as is but some simple things like making sure wall offs work right were getting skipped. We will fix it, and we will learn from it Given what happened with Vicious at Dreamhack, do you feel that this will hamper the validity of using 'non-tested' maps in major tournaments? It seemed more a liability than a boon to have these maps in the first place... It will, but the more important thing to take away from DH is that no pros like playing on maps they don't know. I watched a fair bit (not all of, tbf) the series, and saw about three maps on vicious and one on the snow one. I don't blame them for chosing maps they're familiar with, however, what can we do about it? Props to the ESV weekly for having a pool of fresh maps, if it wasn't for them we wouldn't have Cloud Kingdom rocking GSL, MLG, DH, ladder, et al. But it would be unfair to have, say, a large LAN on a small pool of only new and (comparatively) unestablished maps. Weeklys and longer seasons can adjust around changes better (eg: the swift removal of calm before storm from GSL), so I'd like to see more variation in things like playhem and go4sc2 The thing that bothers me most is the reaction that pros such as Sase and Naniwa has towards these maps. They outright scorned the organization for using new maps. I'll remind you that Cloud Kingdom didn't work through the ESV weekly- rather, Team Liquid helped make that map what it is (along with KC, and Ohana... all the 'tournament' ESV maps) So I'm not sure if ESV is successful, or if Team Liquid is good for marketing and quality control. Results at DreamHack speak to the latter, and I wanted to have Diamond's/ProdiG's thoughts on that. We can see from how Morrow/Sase got screwed because they felt they needed to veto different maps and instantly got gibbed on these maps, etc., or the above error. Just wondering about what ESV feels about their own validity after a slap in the face like this. ESV's validity? As the only foreign organization still standing to make a dent in the terrible map pool by blizzard? As the admins of an immensely popular tournament in the Korean weekly? As the guys who are fighting to keep SC2 fresh and entertaining despite receiving no praise when they succeed and heaps of scorn when they have a slip-up? The issue here is that without community support, new maps can't get tested. And pro players don't play on maps they don't have to. This means ESV has to supply in-house all the testing it can for a map, but when you've got a team of mappers churning out new map concepts, there's no way you can test everything. In this case, the mapper did double check the map, and a known graphical bug in the editor invalidated his check. To me, the mapper did practice due diligence. And if the community ever got behind mappers instead of alternating between ignoring them and dumping on them, this bug wouldn't have affected any games. The only way to get pros to change maps is to force them. And the only way to have enough leverage to force them is to either pay them or withhold pay (in the form of enforced games on new maps). ESV has tried paying them, with the Korean Weekly, and its done well. You can see statistically that players who came up through the KW have an advantage over their Code A/S counterparts on these maps, because they've played them before. Non-GSL tournaments often leave map choice up to the players, and this causes new maps to always be ignored. Force the pros to play on new maps and they'll practice in advance, and any bugs would get caught in advance. All that being said, of course Diamond is going to come out and accept full responsibility. He's a very upstanding guy and I'm sure he means it when he says testing will be even more rigorous than it already is.
I agree completely. The only way to get pros to play new maps is to force them. If you're a pro player where your ability to perform is your lifeblood, why would you NOT want to run people over with that same Metalopolis build you invented a year ago?
That being said, my testing policy here wasn't thorough enough and I should have caught this before DreamHack. It would have been great if a player reported it to me before the finals, but I can't count on that to happen. I've said it quite a few times before in this thread and I'll say it again, ESV's testing policies are much more strict after this event.
Stuff like this is bound to happen at some point. Every other day we're discovering something new and broken about the editor and/or balance that we need to watch out for in the future. Simply put, we don't have the same resources that Blizzard does to avoid things like this, whether it be a full staffed QA testing team (that still managed to missed the FPS issues on Metropolis mind you, they're not perfect either) or the vast amount of balance data from the ladder. What we do have is some incredibly creative and intelligent minds designing brilliant maps that give a better SC2 experience overall. You have to take the good with the bad - and if you don't want to, enjoy playing Metalopolis for the next five years. I won't be around if that's the case.
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It was a doodad causing the problem, right? The doodads aren't copy/paste, they are unique at each position.
The bug in the editor, I believe, is because the doodad footprint is different for pathing or building. Building footprints are displayed only on the build grid, in such a way that a 3x3 doodad always shows up as a 3x3 footprint when you turn the build grid on. However, the pathing footprint is on a grid 8x smaller than the build footprint. When the doodad loads in-game, it finds all the squares with are partially unpathable and makes them also unbuildable. The result is a 4x4 unbuildable area unless the doodad is centered on the build grid, which it always will be unless you ignore placement requirements.
When you look at the build grid, it only shows the unbuildable footprint provided by the doodad, and does not calculate buildability on squares based on the pathability painted onto them, whether painted by the doodad or by the mapper with the pathing brush tools. Maybe it should display that, as it would give a more game-accurate view.
So long as you check the pathing mesh, it shouldn't be too hard to detect, though. But in this case, it's right around the edge of a thick cliff which covers up the terrain, so it's understandable it was overlooked, although it's still inexcusable. Generally it's probably best to disable the footprint of most doodads and paint it by hand.
It really shouldn't be a matter of catching these things in testing after-the-fact, though, should it? I mean, that sort of testing is important before going to a big tournament, of course, but I think it would make more sense to be a little more thoughtful with each individual doodad placement so that these issues don't even get to the testing phase? Maybe that's just me, though, and it's more of an OCD kind of thing.
Anyway, I hope you guys get things worked out in the future, whether it's better testing, more care in placement or a better understanding of how doodad footprints work (whichever caused the issue,) and I'll look forward to more ESV maps.
Of course as a mapper and a spectator I'm in agreement about the mapping situation. The fact that a map got to a big tournament like this without anyone playing games on it ever before is a bit disturbing. There needs to be a better way of getting new maps in and making it worth it for players to practice them, because right now it seems hard for any map to be a success without being in GSL or ladder. Maybe kespa will start introducing maps with SC2 and they'll have a good system, but that probably wouldn't help foreign map makers very much.
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On April 24 2012 22:22 Ragoo wrote:
The best way to fix part of this problem and to get pros to train and play on these maps would be alot smaller map pools. The DH map pool had 9 maps, impossible to practice every map for every matchup and you also will basically always veto out the new maps.
With a 5 map map pool pros could focus a lot more on each map in preperation and practice map specific strategies and then you would see games played on new maps and also you'd probably see more variety and higher quality in regards to the strategies used.
If you don't force the pros, they will play the same shit on the same maps forever.
I agree, but I don't understand why these big tournament orginizers don't stop using old and proven to be horrible out of their map pools like metalopalis for instance. It's not like it costas them money to do so.
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On April 24 2012 23:55 iGrok wrote:Show nested quote +On April 24 2012 23:47 bbm wrote:On April 24 2012 21:52 iGrok wrote:
the mapper did double check the map, and a known graphical bug in the editor invalidated his check. To me, the mapper did practice due diligence. While I agree with everything you say, if it's a known graphical bug in the editor, then before you release it to tournaments (especially large ones with lots of eyes watching such as DH) you NEED to put extenisve time into testing it in game. This isn't the first time this has happened iirc (the map where you could drop/blink on a supposedly non pathable beach area). Obviously, mistakes have been made, will be rectified, and hopefully we won't see this happen in the future. But if it was a known bug that pathing is glitched sometimes in the editor, I wouldn't say that vicious' release cycle was subject to due diligence in testing. It's a known graphical error. But extremely difficult to detect. Basically, its the equivalent of finding both Bubbles the Powerpuff Girl toys in the below picture: + Show Spoiler +
Testing each ramp ingame to see if it can be walled off normally should not take much time at all.
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It is pretty much impossible to 100% prevent things like that from happening. Blizzard maps are the best proof of this. Several Blizzard maps are bugged/faulty and have been until today, like naturals on Antiga Shipyard.
The only difference is that a community map can get fixed within half an hour of noticing it. So  to ESV for offering best possible map support.
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I can actually see the antiga base, and i must say this map looks really really cool. I like the dynamic that the sim city can provide in this map, and how it actually makes building placement even more NB, if i'm reading it right.
Sadly, i'm not a pro map maker, nor a pro, but just want to say this map is awesome
Can't wait to play it.
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This bug was actually already noticed in the game FXO.GuMiho vs. oGs.jookTo, but I guess Gumiho didn't report it.
At least I assume that game was played before Dreamhack. I'm watching the rebroadcast of that match right now on ESV TV.
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On April 25 2012 05:18 S1eth wrote:
This bug was actually already noticed in the game FXO.GuMiho vs. oGs.jookTo, but I guess Gumiho didn't report it.
At least I assume that game was played before Dreamhack. I'm watching the rebroadcast of that match right now on ESV TV.
Those matches were played before the fix was made and you're right, I guess they just didn't say anything.
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Just fyi Vicious was in 2 weeks of the Korean Weekly prior to DH without the bug being reported. It was played on just this one issue was missed. Again I have implemented better QA to make sure this issue (or any issue we know exists) does not happen in the future.
Remember everyone we would like to have 500 pro games on each before a major tourney uses it, with both the map climate and the fact that mapmakers make $0, this is not possible. While I feel we could have done better, you can only expect so much from people that have to work full time jobs to support themselves and just do map making in all their spare time.
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I just played this map a couple of times because it's currently 1v1 obs map of the day on europe and I have noticed some pretty frustrating things.
First off 1 of the gasses in the main is a lot farther away than the other one (there is actually 1 probe not in the assimilator when mining with 3). This made about a 7-15 gas difference in my build on the first 100 gas mined. There is a similar issue with a lot of maps but as far as I can judge it is the most extreme on this one.
Secondly, it seems like every natural entrance has a different wallin requirement. It varies from 3 gateways to 1 gateway 2 pylons. Now this may be due to walling at a different point but with the doodas it is extremely hard to judge exactly where your wall will be smallest.
All the other issues with the map aside (the close 3rd is not only extremely wide open but it can also be cliff-harrassed, really?) this just makes it infuriating to play. When you notice you just chronoboosted an empty gateway because you still need 10 gas for that stalker or that your wall is not tight it has a big psychological effect.
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On April 25 2012 07:11 lazyo wrote:
I just played this map a couple of times because it's currently 1v1 obs map of the day on europe and I have noticed some pretty frustrating things.
First off 1 of the gasses in the main is a lot farther away than the other one (there is actually 1 probe not in the assimilator when mining with 3). This made about a 7-15 gas difference in my build on the first 100 gas mined. There is a similar issue with a lot of maps but as far as I can judge it is the most extreme on this one.
Secondly, it seems like every natural entrance has a different wallin requirement. It varies from 3 gateways to 1 gateway 2 pylons. Now this may be due to walling at a different point but with the doodas it is extremely hard to judge exactly where your wall will be smallest.
All the other issues with the map aside (the close 3rd is not only extremely wide open but it can also be cliff-harrassed, really?) this just makes it infuriating to play. When you notice you just chronoboosted an empty gateway because you still need 10 gas for that stalker or that your wall is not tight it has a big psychological effect.
You are taking the wrong 3rd then.
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On April 25 2012 07:11 lazyo wrote:
I just played this map a couple of times because it's currently 1v1 obs map of the day on europe and I have noticed some pretty frustrating things.
First off 1 of the gasses in the main is a lot farther away than the other one (there is actually 1 probe not in the assimilator when mining with 3). This made about a 7-15 gas difference in my build on the first 100 gas mined. There is a similar issue with a lot of maps but as far as I can judge it is the most extreme on this one.
Secondly, it seems like every natural entrance has a different wallin requirement. It varies from 3 gateways to 1 gateway 2 pylons. Now this may be due to walling at a different point but with the doodas it is extremely hard to judge exactly where your wall will be smallest.
All the other issues with the map aside (the close 3rd is not only extremely wide open but it can also be cliff-harrassed, really?) this just makes it infuriating to play. When you notice you just chronoboosted an empty gateway because you still need 10 gas for that stalker or that your wall is not tight it has a big psychological effect.
I can re-arrange the geysers a little bit if this is the case, I'll look into it more thoroughly this evening.
All natural expansion chokes are 10 tiles wide. They can be blocked by gate gate forge, leaving a one tile wide lane for you to put your zealot. See the spoiler below and turn on the building placement guide in SC2.
What you described on the third is intentional. In order to safely hold a third, you need to be active in controlling the middle. The map is designed so that if your game plan is to sit back on 3 bases and turtle, you'll lose to anyone actively controlling the map. This is to entice constant conflict once players secure their natural expansions and 2-base economies.
+ Show Spoiler [protoss wallins] +
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EPT![[image loading]](http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2057/2487631402_a8e5602961.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/cQyw7.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/v5uQB.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/lxSQV.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/2FzyX.jpg)
