Version 1.7 is now uploaded to EU & NA server. -need upload partner for SEA server!
Hello good TL people.
I have now completed my map: Varuna It´s my feeble atempt to create an epic 1v1 map, with a lot of strategic options and hopefully equal opportunities for all 3 races.
The playable map size is 130x152 Available on EU server.
Version 1.7: Added an extra ramp to gold expansions Widened bridges outside natural
Version 1.6: -Removed XN towers & LOS blockers on bridges and shortened the bridges -Redesigned and simplified central area -Redesigned gold expansion and removed XN-LOS highground -Added LOS refuges at natural and between 3rd, 4th and gold
The way the natural entrance is set up is so cool. the middle area seems a bit awkward in terms of getting to your opponents base but it might make for some interesting positioning battles. How many maps have you made so far?
The middle seems awkward for traveling through, as some paths are tighter than others and other paths are open. The quickest base to base paths should be more open than the tighter ones in my opinion for balance reasons. I can see the zig-zag structure of the mid, but having the XWTs and the high ground that they are on destroys the need for players to use the middle are for travel as much, and in late-game can give Terran a huge advantage and allow themselves to siege up on that high ground, giving them a LoS advantage with the XWT and a height advantage, and the fact that once the enemy units break the high ground ramp, there is little to no wiggle room for armies with limited range. Also, I think it would be very easy for a Terran player to shut down enemies due to the fact that two XWTs overlook the entrance to the natural and will see you when you leave, and that there is this little high ground area for tanks to chill (honestly I see no other use for it).
I like the double-width ramps to the mains and I think that those should stay, but it also depends on the changes made to the mid of the map. If rush distances are decreased, which they probably will be, you might want to consider changing the size of the ramps to the mains.
Cliff by the naturals... Meh, it's ok because it doesn't hit the building.
I don't think that you need two rows of LoSBs protecting the entrance to the "thirds". One row would be sufficient in my honest opinion.
Nice texture work on this, much better than I could do. Very good map overall, but the XWTs overlooking those fast paths to your enemy and the high ground that they are on need to be redesigned.
On November 03 2010 00:23 WniO wrote: The way the natural entrance is set up is so cool. the middle area seems a bit awkward in terms of getting to your opponents base but it might make for some interesting positioning battles. How many maps have you made so far?
I wanted to make a map without an obvious frontline and open up for several attack routes. I have done about 5 melee maps so far, added links in OP.
On November 03 2010 01:08 Superouman wrote: What justifies your double width entrance?
I have seen many replays where top players either don´t wall off or use 3 buildings which is possible here. I was getting a little tired of the standard narrow entrance routine, and thought I might stir it up a little. I added extra chokes just outside of the main and natural that should help defend. If there are good reasons to change it back to a narrow ramp, I will do that.
On November 03 2010 02:56 kXn wrote: I would like this map if the 3rd and gold expo would be just a little bit more accessible.
Anyways, I really like the layout on this map, and the texture usage.
Thanks. I have tried different layouts for 3rd, 4th and gold, and I´m not sure I have the best setup yet. But still; on a lot of maps the 3rd and gold really hard to defend, which is fun to watch IMO.
The middle seems awkward for traveling through, as some paths are tighter than others and other paths are open. The quickest base to base paths should be more open than the tighter ones in my opinion for balance reasons. I can see the zig-zag structure of the mid, but having the XWTs and the high ground that they are on destroys the need for players to use the middle are for travel as much, and in late-game can give Terran a huge advantage and allow themselves to siege up on that high ground, giving them a LoS advantage with the XWT and a height advantage, and the fact that once the enemy units break the high ground ramp, there is little to no wiggle room for armies with limited range. Also, I think it would be very easy for a Terran player to shut down enemies due to the fact that two XWTs overlook the entrance to the natural and will see you when you leave, and that there is this little high ground area for tanks to chill (honestly I see no other use for it).
I like the double-width ramps to the mains and I think that those should stay, but it also depends on the changes made to the mid of the map. If rush distances are decreased, which they probably will be, you might want to consider changing the size of the ramps to the mains.
Cliff by the naturals... Meh, it's ok because it doesn't hit the building.
I don't think that you need two rows of LoSBs protecting the entrance to the "thirds". One row would be sufficient in my honest opinion.
Nice texture work on this, much better than I could do. Very good map overall, but the XWTs overlooking those fast paths to your enemy and the high ground that they are on need to be redesigned.
Thanks for taking the time to do this detailed analysis; there´s a lot for me to digest. Great input with the "tank chill zone". I think I have enough feedback already to give this map an overhaul and take it to the next level.
i think maybe if you just added some space to the middle, it would make a more direct path to the opponents natural, and i would like that more than the current layout. keep the 4 watchtowers though where they are because i think they help split the map in late-game scenarios. as for your other maps i really dig asgard.
I might close up the gaps in the middle, but that's just a feeling from seeing the pictures. Tried to play the map, but B.net can't find the map (on EU)...
The map feels a little clogged as a result of higher density than necessary "interesting terrain". I know it would hurt to alter the precisely fitted structure, but it looks annoying to use a lot of these spaces. Were you trying to create a novel environment? If that's not paramount, you should simplify.
The mini platform with the small ramp outside the natural doesn't need to be there. What about LOS refuge instead? The gaps at the center which create the narrow direct route feel too constricting. I think the narrow route is okay, but I would knock down the octagon towers and pinch the hole up a bit so there is more space to swing around it. This would also create an useful ring-around-the-rosey spot. Lastly, the XWT near the gold seems excessive--high ground, LOS, and XWT. I would just have high ground, but it's your map.
As you say there's a lot of criticism to digest. It's a cool concept; I'm anxious to see your revised execution.
Thanks for all your feedback. I have done a lot of changes with your comments in mind. Please have a look, and let me know what you think.
Version 1.6: -Removed XN towers & LOS blockers on bridges and shortened the bridges -Redesigned and simplified central area -Redesigned gold expansion and removed XN-LOS highground -Added LOS refuges at natural and between 3rd, 4th and gold
Looks like a good map, here are my two small proposed changes.
The first (red), is a move of the ramps of the golds to provide a better army path between the natural/main and the third. What I'm seeing is that at the 3 base stage of the game, armies are going to be positioned around the entrance of the natural and the watchtower. With your current positioning, this makes moving to intercept an attack on the 3rd very difficult, as you have to go back through the 3rd itself or go through the gold, then back considerably to get there. The rocks will help slightly, but at the time you have a third taken they will delay an army for a very small period of time. The move to the red position would, I feel, make for a more natural army flow between defending the natural/main complex and defending the 3rd expansion.
The only other suggestion I have is a slight widening of the blue lanes, as they are currently a bit too cramped.
I'm liking the textures, and overall feel, but i feel like it is almost easier to hold your opponent's fourth as opposed to your own gold and fourth, I'd say maybe remove the outward facing ramp from the golds, and also remove the rocks at the thirds, that way the gold is essentially a third, and there are two angles of attack if your enemy decides to take your fourth
The question as to where to go for 3rd / 4th makes the map interesting... why would you change that.
Really good job with the adjustments. Even though I miss the narrow direct path, this is better. At first I felt like the watchtowers are too easy, but I realized that lategame they're necessary so the game isn't just an army position dice roll. I can't think of any possible improvements; this looks solid. Any idea if it will make it to other servers? NA?
Looks like a good map, here are my two small proposed changes.
The first (red), is a move of the ramps of the golds to provide a better army path between the natural/main and the third. What I'm seeing is that at the 3 base stage of the game, armies are going to be positioned around the entrance of the natural and the watchtower. With your current positioning, this makes moving to intercept an attack on the 3rd very difficult, as you have to go back through the 3rd itself or go through the gold, then back considerably to get there. The rocks will help slightly, but at the time you have a third taken they will delay an army for a very small period of time. The move to the red position would, I feel, make for a more natural army flow between defending the natural/main complex and defending the 3rd expansion.
The only other suggestion I have is a slight widening of the blue lanes, as they are currently a bit too cramped.
I did a version with your proposed changes (thanks for taking the time): + Show Spoiler +
I will try a few test games with my friends to compare. The question is: isn´t it supposed to be difficult to defend a 3rd, and the gold even more so?
On November 06 2010 01:41 EatThePath wrote: The question as to where to go for 3rd / 4th makes the map interesting... why would you change that.
Really good job with the adjustments. Even though I miss the narrow direct path, this is better. At first I felt like the watchtowers are too easy, but I realized that lategame they're necessary so the game isn't just an army position dice roll. I can't think of any possible improvements; this looks solid. Any idea if it will make it to other servers? NA?
Thanks. I need an upload partner on the other servers. A guy volunteered to upload my maps but it seems he wasn´t really motivated to keep up with my frequent revisions and such. Also, I have lots yet to learn, and my previous maps could be better. That being said, I have a true passion for creating melee maps and I am dedicated to creating the best maps I possibly can. My ultimate goal is to have Blizzard include on of my maps in the official ladder map pool ;-) (I know, naïve/borderline stupid, never gonna happen, LOL).
Aim high! At the least, dedicated mappers should present creative ideas so everyone has a chance to examine the possibilities. Even if you never create a hit, you help further the state of the art.
Added 3rd ramp to the gold expo and widened the bridge outside the natural
Also, I have polished the map a lot and placed doodads and decals, and I think it´s coming together as a pretty good melee map. I played about 10 matches against my friends, but unfortunately we´re all semi-newbs so there might be minor balance issues remaining. I hope to see more accomplished people try it out soon.
On November 09 2010 03:57 2-_-n wrote: Can't find it up on EU when serching for "Varuna"
That´s weird. I have played it multiple times with friends without any issues. I heard that the search function on EU server is bugged hope it will be fixed soon. I hope it´s not something I did.
Idk about the high ground by the natural, it just seems like terran can drop tanks there and harass while Zerg would have no good use for it, and protoss would maybe be able to use it as a proxy spot but not much more. Also if your going to have that large of a main ramp then I suggest making the natural a bit easier to defend.
On November 10 2010 02:45 Whiplash wrote: Idk about the high ground by the natural, it just seems like terran can drop tanks there and harass while Zerg would have no good use for it, and protoss would maybe be able to use it as a proxy spot but not much more. Also if your going to have that large of a main ramp then I suggest making the natural a bit easier to defend.
As a Zerg player (albeit very low-level) I like those high grounds to put an overlord, but I guess youre right that it may give some advantage to terran, but I was hoping the wider entrance could compensate for that. Tank range from there only covers the one gas an 2-3 mineral patches. On Lost Temple the high ground outside the natural enables tanks to completely annihilate both natural and gold expos. The natural should be easier to defend than the ones on Xel´Naga caverns or Metalopolis.
I think this map looks fantastic and I'd love to play it all of the time. Once my friend gets his computer working, I'd play him at this and send you a replay if you wanted.
Now that you´re doing a 5 months bump I might as well post a banshee rush tutorial done on this map. It´s from the final in a custom map cup. Caster is LokiStarcraft. Sorry about the aspect ratio.
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