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Hmm, Just like the name of the topic, I am here to discuss Nexus war strat.
+ Show Spoiler +I would like to open the topic with a simple question, how to counter "spawn block"?
Spawn Block is when somebody use a hold scv to block the creep spawn to make them go out at a larger number therefore has more kill.
2nd of all, between zealot, marine and lings, which one you choose 1st. My own thought was since each creep give you 1 mineral, zealots would be the best choice considering it only give ur enemy 1 mineral instead of 2 or 4 for marines and lings.
Now, lets start the discussion!!!
edit: add spoiler tag to hide old-not-viable-strat
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I've only played it like 3 times but I like going 3 rax then 1 gate.
At first you're sort of just eating it but then when the 1 gate kicks in the tide starts to turn
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Zealots are definitely the best unit at the VERY beginning. However it is almost always better to race switch to Terran after that. I find Protoss in general in Nexus Wars to be rather underpowered (I think it's due to long build time on the units and the inability to Chrono Boost them).
Mass marine/marauder is pretty tough to defeat in Nexus Wars. Especially since Marauders START with concussive and stim, and Marines can buy Combat Shield. No other unit in the map can get any upgrades at all. (This really needs to be changed IMO)
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I've been going double spawning pool and then baneling (if they're still building mass light units) or I go roach.
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I prefer to go 1 Zergling into quick Rouchs which are great tanks an pretty much instantly turn the tide.
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On June 05 2010 05:00 Uranium wrote:
Zealots are definitely the best unit at the VERY beginning. However it is almost always better to race switch to Terran after that. I find Protoss in general in Nexus Wars to be rather underpowered (I think it's due to long build time on the units and the inability to Chrono Boost them).
Mass marine/marauder is pretty tough to defeat in Nexus Wars. Especially since Marauders START with concussive and stim, and Marines can buy Combat Shield. No other unit in the map can get any upgrades at all. (This really needs to be changed IMO)
mostly agreed with this guy :D
only 1 thing to correct, at the latest version, stim is an upgrade for marauder 
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On June 05 2010 05:00 Uranium wrote:
Zealots are definitely the best unit at the VERY beginning. However it is almost always better to race switch to Terran after that. I find Protoss in general in Nexus Wars to be rather underpowered (I think it's due to long build time on the units and the inability to Chrono Boost them).
Mass marine/marauder is pretty tough to defeat in Nexus Wars. Especially since Marauders START with concussive and stim, and Marines can buy Combat Shield. No other unit in the map can get any upgrades at all. (This really needs to be changed IMO)
Zealots can research charge, lings can get speed (movement and attack), hellions can get preigniter i think
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Whatever you do, DON'T get high templars.
Especially when your opponent has broodlords. Unless you WANT to storm yourself, steer away from high templars.
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On June 05 2010 05:05 prototype. wrote:
Whatever you do, DON'T get high templars.
Especially when your opponent has broodlords. Unless you WANT to storm yourself, steer away from high templars.
dun know man, today got a very epic game and HT is not that bad, imcome of everyone on my team was >1200 when we done :O
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double cannon near nexus and pylon spam
you'll strangle their bounty and it will pay in dividends later
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Problem with zealots is that once you get past the very beginning they easily get overrun by marines; it's a lot easier to get a 3rd and 4th rax before a 2nd gateway.
1 gateway = 14 income
14 x 6 cycles [20 seconds each equals 120 seconds] of income = 84 minerals. You either need 16 kills early on (unlikely), wait for another income cycle or build lings/marines as your second building.
If you go for two marines/two zerglings:
1 gateway = 14 income
14 x 4 cycles [20 seconds each equals 80 seconds] = 56 minerals.
Then from that you have 16 x 2 cycles = 32 minerals for 88 minerals total.
So in income you only have 4 extra minerals, although by the next cycle you can add another building. Most of the time you'll have enough kills going marines only to add on another building by the 6th cycle, at which point the single zealot (which can't be chrono-boosted) will get mauled and you'll usually be pushing closer to the enemy nexus.
From that point on I like to go reaper -> hellion -> banshee, by which point the banshee usually counters the marauders that come out.
It's also worth mentioning that this works much better if your teammate goes for a zealot, which acts as a great meat shield. It also goes without saying that it's essential to sync up your buildings, otherwise the zealots will maul the shit out of you.
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On June 05 2010 05:15 BliptiX wrote:
double cannon near nexus and pylon spam
you'll strangle their bounty and it will pay in dividends later
Your strategy is very easily countered by observant players and only guarantees the game goes into an epic lag fest. Please do not do this.
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One player makes mass cannon on top, other 3 players go mass rax's on bottom.
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did they fix the bug where air units get stuck at the ramp? I got this I had literally 50 broodlords sitting at my ramp, his whole army just kept coming up and could never get past my ramp but I could not push because half my army would get stuck in the air, so the game eventually got so many units out it crashed lmao
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On June 05 2010 05:15 BliptiX wrote:
double cannon near nexus and pylon spam
you'll strangle their bounty and it will pay in dividends later
lololol, if i select all of my building and hold esc, u will be fucked since my income is >10 and urs is 10 constantly =)) => guess who will have the first pylon?
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I usually go 1 gate into mass terran infantry. The zealots make great tanks for your marines early game. I usually stick with mostly infantry, but ill add on some hellions w/ preigniter if they have lots of infantry themselves.
Also, pylons are really nice for economy, but are really dangerous to put up early game. I like to sneak one in while our troops are pushed forward.
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I like going 1 rax 1 zergling. I can either switch to Marauder or Roach easily. Then I usually go for Banshee because they rape. From then I spam Banshees unless he goes heavy AA, then I just spam MMM.
Terran seems overpowered and Protoss is underpowered. If you mass Marauder, nothing on ground can beat you...and when you get enough you could do mass marine or mass viking. Protoss has early game immortals which are really good but are very expensive and Colossus which get countered easily by vikings.
Also, Vikings are overpowered because as you push around the line, your vikings don't die because of their 9 range. By the time you get to their base, they are forced to nuke because you have so many.
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On June 05 2010 05:26 NB wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2010 05:15 BliptiX wrote:
double cannon near nexus and pylon spam
you'll strangle their bounty and it will pay in dividends later lololol, if i select all of my building and hold esc, u will be fucked since my income is >10 and urs is 10 constantly =)) => guess who will have the first pylon?
I think the agony of my opponent having to do that for a good portion of the game is more than enough victory for me.
On a side note I like doing the double terran worker block into releasing a mass of marines and I find zerg+ terran massing queens and reapers quite effective early game.
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I am more interested in why the heck I can't find this "Nexus Wars" on European servers... :S
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they dont have nexus wars on the EU? absurd
do you guys at least have battlecraft?
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Its the next castle fight, not dota.
Hopefully the creator will work on adding races other than the base 3 and add a few more game modes/options/items.
Pretty good time burner.
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This isn't anything like Dota. Dota is a micro game, this game has zero micro.
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my advice, never buy pylons, for 200 minerals you can buy units instead that increase your income.
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2 zergling, hold esc to send out at the same time
lol xD nets me lotta kills early
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On June 05 2010 09:26 Morayfire73 wrote:
my advice, never buy pylons, for 200 minerals you can buy units instead that increase your income.
but pylons give you so much income compare to the other building structure...
i think if you time it right when your army start pushing back it will be very significant
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Word of advice, Queens are incredibly powerful.
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On June 05 2010 08:28 The6357 wrote:
is this ums next dota?
Nowhere near, it's just an inferior version of Wc3's Castle Wars, which didn't get much love
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Build terran units ---> win. Nexus wars is so brainless...
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Despite the bounty logic with zealots>marines>zerglings, protoss are way underpowered. With the possible exception of marine blocking (which is very popular atm, but will probably get patched) it is pretty much always better to tech up than to mass tier 1. Stuff like banelings, roaches and reapers are incredibly powerful vs tier one units, as well as cannons shutting down any chance of pushing further. The problem here is that protoss need to spend so much more to get the units they want. zealots cost 100, sentries cost 125, immortals cost 250, phoenixes cost 150.
Protoss also have much more difficulty stopping tier one rushes, and are less able to punish an opponent's mistakes.
/end rant
In response to how to beat spawn blocked units, a single cannon will let you live long enough to out tech them and hard counter that cheap crap. This can be difficult if your ally is a weaker player, as he may not help repair/pick off units with scv.
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On June 05 2010 08:31 Tankbusta wrote:
they dont have nexus wars on the EU? absurd
do you guys at least have battlecraft?
Yeah, we do have Battlecraft. But no Nexus Wars, which is kinda aggravating as I'm getting tired of Battlecraft now that I've done it a few hundred times. (But if anyone wants to talk Battlecraft strats, I'm your man.)
Shouldn't be so hard to upload Nexus Wars to European servers, should it? With the idiotic regional server fixed divide that Blizz has implemented, maybe the creators need to have multiple accounts... >
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Pylons are helpful. My standard b uild would be 4 racks hellion medivac 4 banshees, but while building the banshees if they build vikings or mutas or phoenix get vikings yourself, 2 of them should be enough. After this your income should be fairly high but get pylons until income is at 185-200 then go BC's. If they have void rays or corruptors get a few more vikings unless your teammates can get void rays themselves. It depends on your bottom partner if its zerg tell them to get epic hydras since they bunch up well, if its toss just get them to go sentry void rays
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um went like 5 rax then added reaper helion maduders depenting on what I was vs eventally gettin thor tanks
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I can't find this map. Isn't it on EU yet?
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On June 05 2010 08:28 The6357 wrote:
is this ums next dota?
Sounds like the next zergling blood to me although I haven't played it.
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On June 07 2010 00:29 Munashiimaru wrote:Sounds like the next zergling blood to me although I haven't played it.
This game literally has ZERO micro unlike zergling blood where positioning and surrounds are quite important. In Nexus Wars you build unit producing structures and then the units automatically come out and a-move to the enemies base, you then cannot control them at all.
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On June 05 2010 08:28 The6357 wrote:
is this ums next dota?
Not even close lol.
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Could anyone please upload the map so we poor europeans could add it to our list?
Please *puppy eyes*
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4 Pool into Pump Roach
Counter spawnblocking with spawnblocking.
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Mass Terran ground with block into mass Brood Lords and Vikings. Used to lose to Banelings but they got nerfed.
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On June 05 2010 08:28 The6357 wrote:
is this ums next dota?
it's castle fight from wc3, it's like a 100% completely passive game where you sit there and watch whats going on, just a TD but with units instead of towers
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On June 06 2010 23:33 Dystisis wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2010 08:31 Tankbusta wrote:
they dont have nexus wars on the EU? absurd
do you guys at least have battlecraft? Yeah, we do have Battlecraft. But no Nexus Wars, which is kinda aggravating as I'm getting tired of Battlecraft now that I've done it a few hundred times. (But if anyone wants to talk Battlecraft strats, I'm your man.) Shouldn't be so hard to upload Nexus Wars to European servers, should it? With the idiotic regional server fixed divide that Blizz has implemented, maybe the creators need to have multiple accounts... >
if it was easy it would've been uploaded a long time ago, do a search, the map is nowhere to be found. there's several post made already requesting this map to be put on the EU but no luck as of yet.
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marines are OP in nexus wars for sure. Start throwing in thors and vikings into the mix and you will be well off.
I've also seen mass lings work as well.
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Hey,
dunno where to post elswhere, because it seems like i cannot open a thread.
But maybe someone can help me.
I played Nexus Wars alot. Solo and with a Mate.
Is it somehow possible to play with my Mate in the same Team? We tryed everything but always ended up in different teams.
Somone knows how to do it?
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On August 03 2010 17:21 lobolito wrote:
Hey,
dunno where to post elswhere, because it seems like i cannot open a thread.
But maybe someone can help me.
I played Nexus Wars alot. Solo and with a Mate.
Is it somehow possible to play with my Mate in the same Team? We tryed everything but always ended up in different teams.
Somone knows how to do it?
Start a private custom game and let him join, then make it public.
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Everyone talks about blocking units to mass them up, how the hell do you block them?
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This game is on the EU servers, it's pretty decent.
I agree that Protoss is completely underpowered, units take too long to build and are too expensive.
Could someone explain how the income system works in the game? It's not very clear at all.
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On August 03 2010 22:24 wristuzi wrote:
This game is on the EU servers, it's pretty decent.
I agree that Protoss is completely underpowered, units take too long to build and are too expensive.
Could someone explain how the income system works in the game? It's not very clear at all.
Every building you make gives you a little income, I believe for every 50 mins the building costs you get +1 income every 20 seconds or something. The exception is the pylon which gives you +4 income per 50 minerals.
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Good God, I fucking love this map.
For some reason my opponents go mass marines without care for whatever the hell is countering them. The result is a very entertaining slaughterfest.
http://www.mediafire.com/download.php?av598eli98195kv
Some thoughts:
Building up tanks (very cost effective) provides a very good front. Unseiged tank dps is pretty godly in this game--and air is mostly not worth it, unless its to get vikings to counter opponents' air units.
Also, if there's 4 to 5+ raxes total spawning on an opposing lane, investing in an HT or two does wonders. Since storm never hurts your own units anyways, having a few storms pop here and there can be really effective.
Protoss is pretty strong, but is also a huge early investment. Your killcount and income will be relatively low until you get colossus.
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On August 03 2010 17:21 lobolito wrote:
Hey,
dunno where to post elswhere, because it seems like i cannot open a thread.
But maybe someone can help me.
I played Nexus Wars alot. Solo and with a Mate.
Is it somehow possible to play with my Mate in the same Team? We tryed everything but always ended up in different teams.
Somone knows how to do it?
Both join a party, join the game as a party, real easy.
And best opening is zerglings, they beat every other opening (2 rines, 1 zlot, 1 reaper, 1 sentry) apart from banelings.
Best combo opening (if you work with your partner) is probably zlot + 2 rines, as zlots can tank alot of damage, and are the same speed as rines, so they won't run ahead like zerglings and die.
From there i'd just gauge on your opponents build and counter in, keep in mind that ranged units are better to mass than melee ones, so roaches/banelings/zerglings/zlots/DTs will only be useful in the beginning (i know roaches aren't melee but they get outranged by everything).
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I don't really like Nexus Wars that much (too long, too boring), but I've played a few times and encountered something that worked well (for a while, at least)
3 build on top, 1 bottom. Bottom doesn't build ANYTHING until they have enough money for a photon cannon. They cannon the second ramp to your base (you'll be able to build it right before first creeps get there, usually), then they start building on top. Any time they aren't building something, stand by the cannon and auto repair. By the time your opponents realize this, they've already wasted a lot of money on the bottom lane.
This worked in a version that was out during the beta. Not sure if it's valid now. I'm sure it has a lot of holes that you NW fans will pick out, but thought I'd share anyway.
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On August 03 2010 17:21 lobolito wrote:
Hey,
dunno where to post elswhere, because it seems like i cannot open a thread.
But maybe someone can help me.
I played Nexus Wars alot. Solo and with a Mate.
Is it somehow possible to play with my Mate in the same Team? We tryed everything but always ended up in different teams.
Somone knows how to do it?
join a party, make a game, open to public 
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So I found out you can use ghosts to nuke the whole map. So, which unit is broken again...?
€: Ah well, it's probably best if people don't know how 
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One build my friend and I have been using awhile is making one pool then saving for a fast roach. After that mass roaches and get a few sentries to take care of cloak and a few hydras to take care of air.
Also with using that I say that roaches are too cheap mostly because in using that build my friend and I forced them to nuke three times to stop our roaches a few times.
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There used to be a bug that let you cancel hellions and build siege tanks instead. I loved that bug and when it was patched I stopped playing
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I try to do a double zealot openner into fast dt. After that I normally have my patner go terran and I remain as protoss in case of mass infantry(colussi and immortals are a must against marine maruader). I know that the protoss aren't the best race but they have enough ways to hurt the terran early on that they often fail later on(they are also the best if you have to solo lane)
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I've had the most success with Protoss. I don't think I have ever lost a lane unless my partner sucks extreme crap. What I do is open zealot, and just go sentries. Early game, sentries are the best unit for pushing. It will force the opponent to either cannon or nuke. Once they do that, start spamming HTs. HTs are the best counter pushing unit. HTs will level your opponent's push before they get to your base. Your initial sentries should push back to the opponent and force them to nuke again, or just bounce off their cannon. If they cannon, get immortal colossi. Immortal colossi is probably the best anti ground, and it may force the opponent to go air. Once that happens, get phoenix, as they counter mutas, void rays, banshees, and corruptors, have a slight edge versus vikings, and they lift enemy units as well. After that get void rays since they are one of the best units for late game pushing.
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I usually get double rines to open, then depending on how well my lane is holding up, either build more marines, or marauders if they are building banelings. If we are pushing them, I build one hellion, then mass tanks. If they get mutas or banshees, some sentries for detection and shields and thors. If they go bcs, carriers, or voidrays, I build vikings.
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Ghosts, they are the early game changer and allow you to transition into pretty much anything you want. Snipe is seriously overpowered.
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I just go mass sentry with my friend who goes what ever he wants. Works almost every time haha.
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If one person goes mass banelings and get the hooks around his 4th or 5th nest, it is unstoppable. The person who is building with him just has to get antiair and its gg.
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On August 04 2010 14:18 Stretsful wrote:
I just go mass sentry with my friend who goes what ever he wants. Works almost every time haha.
i've noticed that if one person goes sentry/baneling and the other person goes mass roach it's gg
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So much bad advice in this thread....
Mass baneling? are you kidding?
you will push them back until they get enough ranged units (marine marauder) and then they will rape you so hard you won't be able to sit down for a week. I have beaten pure baneling so many times I cant even...
Mass sentry seems strong at first, but once they get anything other than marines out (or even alot of upped marines) the sentry's dps isn't enough and you will get rolled. Sentries are only strong vs marines.
For what its worth...my strategy for Nexus wars... I have played way too many games, I win probably 80% of them (lose because of retard allies)
Good Openings:
Double Rines: Marines are a very strong start, once you get 4-5 rax you will have great ranged critical mass. This is my standard start.
Zealot/Marines: one player starts zealot, other marines, after that you go mass rine....very strong in the early game if synced correctly, you can win in the first 5 minutes.
Sentry/Marines: good counter to 4 rax opening, sentry will give you a big advantage vs marines.
Workable openings:
Reaper/zealot: very strong if correctly synced, but nearly impossible to keep the reaper behind the zealot.
ONE ling into Roach: Lings blow ass, make only one, Roaches will be very strong until they get a decent amount of marauders.
My usual gameplan:
1. Open double rax/zealot
2. Transition into Mass rines 4-5 rax(add sentry if they go massrines, add reaper if you opened zealot rines after 2-3 rax)
3. Transition into marauder 2-4 bunker (after 4-5 rax or when they start going roach/4+baneling)
4. Once you get 2-4 marauders you should start pushing them with a nice lump, get a hellion and medivacs
5. Add more medivac/marauder to taste
6. Add on 2-4 banshee
7.Add 2 HT if they are pushing
8. Add more marauder/Viking (enough to keep air control)/BC+Thor later(mostly thor), ALOT of HT(they are the only thing that can stop a lategame push)
9. If they get HT then you can consider adding a carrier lategame, as their ht will waste a ton of storms on the interceptors.
GOOD UNITS:
Marines
Marauders
Banshee
Viking
Thor
Tanks are ok, but don't make them, marauders do the same thing better and cheaper and get healed.
Immortals
BC
Hydra (until storm)
HT
UNITS THAT ARE GOOD EARLY AND THEN BECOME USELESS:
Reaper
Hellion
Sentry
Roach
DON'T MAKE THESE UNLESS YOU ARE FUCKING AROUND:
Lings
Phoenix
DT (NEVER!)
Infestor
Queen
Muta
Stalker
Ultra
Baneling (they cant build up into a push---a marauder eats like 9)
BASIC IDEAS:
At the start of the game....melee units will be a bit stronger than ranged, after 3-5 structures, ranged units will begin achieving critical mass. After very early game all nonranged units become TRASH....do not make them. Marauders are the best ground units until late game...they rape roaches because of their longer range and can easily take down any melee and tanks/thor/ultra/hydra...then they get healed. Banshee can make breaking a push super hard because of their long range and dps/cloaking, they will kill all detectors and make counterpushing nearly impossible. Thor are great because their high HP makes them gather in huge numbers, they help you get air control with AOE attack. Viking are the ultimate air control fighter, massive range makes them gather in huge masses behind your army and requires nuking/massthor to clear out. Spam HT later game, they do MASSIVE damage to a pushing ball....if there is one tip I have for Nexus Wars noobs then it is to make a ton of these.
Don't bother making a cannon against high hp units (marauder and up), DO make a cannon if you have to vs massrines/ling/bane---it will kill 6980759086 of them.
Pylons are not enough income to bother with mostly...
RANGE IS KING
if you have any questions or want an explanation of why something just ask
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Pylons are great because income comes from 2 sources: Actual income based on your Buildings and killing enemy units. Pylons reduce the OPPOSITIONS income compared to what they would get had you build a production building.
Currently that doesn´t matter because the unit balance is godawful but maybe the author will eventually balance it above "Just spawn Multiplayer units and A-Move". It´s so bad that they can´t restrict Players to a "race", the balance needs the security net that anyone can beat a OP strategy by using the same OP strategy...
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@ sob3k
Why did you ignore ghosts? They kill an infinite number of marines if they're not targeted. Since soooo many people go for mass marine, it's not unusual to have ghosts on the field with +30 kills, snipe is so underestimated.
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On August 04 2010 20:23 LeDuck wrote:
@ sob3k
Why did you ignore ghosts? They kill an infinite number of marines if they're not targeted. Since soooo many people go for mass marine, it's not unusual to have ghosts on the field with +30 kills, snipe is so underestimated.
They cost too much...by the time they will be coming out a decent player will already be moving well into marauder or another sturdy unit composition. Pure Marine is a very poor strategy that can be beaten by any number of things.
They can be a good pile-on unit to make reversing a push very difficult....but in a normal gameplay environment I would rather transition into marauders/medivac (which are strong vs ghost), or spend the 150 on an HT (which will also brutalize massrine pushes)
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On August 04 2010 22:18 sob3k wrote:
They cost too much...by the time they will be coming out a decent player will already be moving well into marauder or another sturdy unit composition. Pure Marine is a very poor strategy that can be beaten by any number of things.
It's true that they take too long in the early game, but as soon as you established a decent lineup, they are a great addition. Though the actual question was, why did you leave them out in your classification? You don't seem to be big fan of them, but you can still add them to "crappy units"
It's not about pure marines being a poor strategy, it's more about: Almost every player has several Barracks and sticks to them for a long time and one thing's fore sure, they are a beastly against light units. I wonder, have you really tried ghosts many times, or did you just stick to your usual composition? Because for me, the game is not about always winning the same way, but winning in a different way everytime
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On August 04 2010 00:04 killa_robot wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2010 17:21 lobolito wrote:
Hey,
dunno where to post elswhere, because it seems like i cannot open a thread.
But maybe someone can help me.
I played Nexus Wars alot. Solo and with a Mate.
Is it somehow possible to play with my Mate in the same Team? We tryed everything but always ended up in different teams.
Somone knows how to do it? Both join a party, join the game as a party, real easy.
Does not work!!
Doesn even work, if you open a privat game and make it public.
Any other suggestions or a confirm, that it works with your mates?
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On August 04 2010 23:34 LeDuck wrote:Show nested quote +On August 04 2010 22:18 sob3k wrote:
They cost too much...by the time they will be coming out a decent player will already be moving well into marauder or another sturdy unit composition. Pure Marine is a very poor strategy that can be beaten by any number of things.
It's true that they take too long in the early game, but as soon as you established a decent lineup, they are a great addition. Though the actual question was, why did you leave them out in your classification? You don't seem to be big fan of them, but you can still add them to "crappy units" It's not about pure marines being a poor strategy, it's more about: Almost every player has several Barracks and sticks to them for a long time and one thing's fore sure, they are a beastly against light units. I wonder, have you really tried ghosts many times, or did you just stick to your usual composition? Because for me, the game is not about always winning the same way, but winning in a different way everytime
ehh..I just forgot them. I left out a couple units.
When I'm just doing something odd I like to open P or Z...T is too standard...and If I can squeeze out a win with pure toss thats baller.
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You could also add Colossi, they're hard to get, but with the range upgrade, they can be a real game changer. Though the creator really should work a bit on the balance, terran units are dominating the whole game =/
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It's not that terran is over powerred from my point of view, it's because the protoss are weak and many people have been programmed to think of the zerg as weak. In reality the zerg roaches and hydra's are some of the best units currently as they ruin most terran and the protoss don't have anything that destroys them both outright(not like banelings in your marines at least)
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Ehh...I played about 100 more games and figured out some legit strats with P and Z....I don't think they are as strong as my normal T build a few posts up...but if you are playing against someone atleast one step from MLG they are very effective.
Protoss: Heavy immortal build
1. Open zealot
2. 2-4 sentry
3. 4-6 Immortal, these are the bread and butter...incredibly good units
5. Mix in HT and sentry/pheonix depending on whether or not they are going ground or air.
6. Finish with mass immortal and a few carriers.
Immortals are just beast...Make sure you mix a ton of HT if they are going mass marine or hydra, you should clean up. Watch out for mass muta, HT are good against these too combined with sentry/pheonix (the lifting is a nice bonus). You should have nothing to fear on the ground once you get 4-6 immortals...BC's and Carriers can be hard...more pheonixes.
Zerg: MASSQUEEN
This is a very funny strat...can be a little tricky to get going but once you do it is actually rape.
Opening is a bit freeform...basically you just want to survive until you can begin spamming queens.
1. Open 3 baneling
2. one ling
4. One roach if you need it to survive
5. If not then start spamming (SYNCED) queens...you want 8-15 eventually
6. Finish with broodlords
This is hilarious....mass queen is actually is nearly invincible because they all use infuse on each other (and the broodlords), they can handle any air units and they are detectors. The only things that give this trouble are high hp heavy hitting units like ultras (Queens weakness is bad dps). You can get an ally to make a few immortals to help. Once the queen mass gets to ridiculous size even a nuke wont kill it for some reason...I guess they use infuse to save themselves or something.
If you can get your ally to do the Mass Queen build too it is even stronger...almost broken.
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sob3k, how do you synch your units, especially with an ally?
Do you tell them to start holding esc at an announced time A and then to release at an announced time B over VOIP?
Is the production time wasted from canceling production and letting it automatically restart an issue?
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My build works every time for me when I have a partner that's actually building stuff and not just cannon(people who thinks making cannon will help and not realize the 10 mineral screws them up several minutes later).
Make 1 baneling nest at the beginning(enjoy getting the kills from mass marines, if they make zealots it's fine since they're not getting minerals because your baneling suicide into them)
Make another baneling nest when you get 75 minerals(time it with your first one)
(optional)Make another baneling nest if it's too much marines and zergling on the other side(nice resource from killing them)
Make a gateway when you have 100 minerals(don't worry if your opponent cross the bridge, you want them to cross the bridge)
Make Immortal when at 175(watches as your immortal slowly stack up and force your opponent to make use nuke)
Make Colossus in the middle when at 300(rally them to help your opponent if they need help plus less units for them to nuke and get money later)
After that just mass pylon, colossus, or void rays.
You have to be constantly looking at what your opponent is making, like if they go dts you can make a sentry or something that can detect(or your partner can) and if they go banshee then make stalkers(phoenix are stupid and go for medivacs as first priority). But they won't have banshee before you can get your immortal out(once the immortal is out then you're most likely to force them to nuke first so you're winning in have one more nuke for late game). The point of the first 2 baneling building is get minerals from killing without giving minerals back to your opponent and to let your opponent cross the bridge so you can stack up your troops once the immortal is out(also immortal tanks for your baneling so you can get very easy kills(easy minerals).
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On August 07 2010 23:48 haveblue wrote:
sob3k, how do you synch your units, especially with an ally?
Do you tell them to start holding esc at an announced time A and then to release at an announced time B over VOIP?
Is the production time wasted from canceling production and letting it automatically restart an issue?
2 ways of syncing
basic is what you are talking about...select all buildings and hold escape, the problem with this is that you waste alot of production runs and have to communicate with your ally.
ADVANCED:
Once you have your second building down, select it and wait until your first building is almost done with its production run. Hold escape to clear it just before the second building finishes making its unit. If done correctly the two buildings should be synced. Do this with each additional building to keep them all synced. You can do this with your allies buildings too. Just wait until they are almost done building their unit, then clear your building right before it finishes, should sync them.
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Tried the mass queens. Didn't work. Their range and dps are too low. A sentry cuts its ground damage to 2x2. Units with any base armor render them completely useless. Couldn't even push back after a nuke. I got 3 baneling nests and then made about 10 queens before we lost.
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i like 2 make ling marine
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On August 09 2010 16:51 haveblue wrote:
Tried the mass queens. Didn't work. Their range and dps are too low. A sentry cuts its ground damage to 2x2. Units with any base armor render them completely useless. Couldn't even push back after a nuke. I got 3 baneling nests and then made about 10 queens before we lost.
Queens have recently been changed, I haven't tried them and I don't know what exactly they did other than making them smaller (which should be a buff except vs nukes). I guarantee that I won many many games with mass queen before the latest patch, vs marauder, vs immortal. They are definitely viable if difficult to set up. Try massing them later in the game...open baneling into sentry/immortal....then later game add on 8-10, they are great for preventing counter pushes due to their unkillability in a group. I wouldn't recommend going 3 baneling into queen, you are pushing tech too fast and your income will be crap slow. Also keep in mind that massqueen is literally 4x as powerful when you and your lane partner contribute.
also if you queens aren't all synced you are wasting your time.
If you are attempting to get massqueen going and your lane partner isn't at least competent you will get your ass raped, they have to be able to atleast keep the opponent off of your doorstep during your weak early-midgame until you get going. They should also ideally be mixing something like immortal/tank/thor to help your queens vs big targets.
Then again queens could have been nerfed recently, I don't know what stat changes they made.
also remember that your income is dependant on your structures....any time you are saving up you are losing money.
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The biggest failure that people make is not cancelling production.
If you're losing the tide you should STOP EVERYTHING!
Why are you giving the opponent money as he walks across the map killing all ur stuff instantly?
Also the food cap needs to be 100 not 300.
If the game goes late it just becomes a massive lagfest at which point I just leave.
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yeah i agree they need to do something about the food cap. I liked the sand castle wars game in BW where if you had 100 of the same unit type on the field, they would become a hero.
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i find firebats to be incredibly good against people who build a lot of "strong vs light" units in the beginning. If i see too many reapers, banelings, hellions, or even sentries, i usually get 1 or 2 firebats asap and it tends to own them pretty hard, since firebats are the only "strong vs light" units that arent light themselves. The AOE doesnt hurt either
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tried it 3 times, 3 times it came down to a 1 fps game, mass units, no1 was winning... bad luck?
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too many terran players on this map
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just tired the mass-queen build. It does not work anymore since they removed the transfusion. Now queens are pretty useless because you sacrifice so much income for a unit that does not enough dmg.
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On August 09 2010 21:36 Bloodash wrote:
tried it 3 times, 3 times it came down to a 1 fps game, mass units, no1 was winning... bad luck?
Nope that's pretty much what happens every game.
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On August 04 2010 17:02 sob3k wrote:. Spam HT later game, they do MASSIVE damage to a pushing ball....if there is one tip I have for Nexus Wars noobs then it is to make a ton of these.
Have you ever used high templar vs broodlords. You will lose automatically. All the high templar will storm your own units. I don't get these for this reason. I think it might even be better to destory your ht buildings if they get broodlords.
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What I usually do is open marine/ling or marine/zealot depending on what race my ally is
Then I tech up and hold off whatever they have until I get viking/broodlords or viking/collossus which rapes both ground and air
Edit: Yeah, they need to fix the lag.
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I hate those assholes that go mass Baneling + Marauder...I can't for the life of me figure out how to beat it.
The one guy built 1 rax at the beginning, the other guy build blings, the other guy spammed blings while the terran built mass marauder then hellion, then thor, while the zerg guy started adding zerglings to kill Immortals that I'd been pumping.
Banelings seriously just need to be removed from Nexus wars, you can't balance them when there's no micro involved.
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On August 09 2010 18:02 sob3k wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2010 16:51 haveblue wrote:
Tried the mass queens. Didn't work. Their range and dps are too low. A sentry cuts its ground damage to 2x2. Units with any base armor render them completely useless. Couldn't even push back after a nuke. I got 3 baneling nests and then made about 10 queens before we lost. Queens have recently been changed, I haven't tried them and I don't know what exactly they did other than making them smaller (which should be a buff except vs nukes). I guarantee that I won many many games with mass queen before the latest patch, vs marauder, vs immortal. They are definitely viable if difficult to set up. Try massing them later in the game...open baneling into sentry/immortal....then later game add on 8-10, they are great for preventing counter pushes due to their unkillability in a group. I wouldn't recommend going 3 baneling into queen, you are pushing tech too fast and your income will be crap slow. Also keep in mind that massqueen is literally 4x as powerful when you and your lane partner contribute. also if you queens aren't all synced you are wasting your time. If you are attempting to get massqueen going and your lane partner isn't at least competent you will get your ass raped, they have to be able to atleast keep the opponent off of your doorstep during your weak early-midgame until you get going. They should also ideally be mixing something like immortal/tank/thor to help your queens vs big targets. Then again queens could have been nerfed recently, I don't know what stat changes they made. also remember that your income is dependant on your structures....any time you are saving up you are losing money.
-Queen:
-Transfusion now heals targets only when they are lower than 50% hp
-25 second cd on transfusion
-Queen model and radius made smaller
-Movement speed reduced to 2
-No longer biological so can't be healed with transfusion
Now I know why my mass queens failed to do anything, and why as soon as I popped broodlords my lane turned into a stalemate despite the other team having a massive push.
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On August 10 2010 06:09 iamke55 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2010 18:02 sob3k wrote:On August 09 2010 16:51 haveblue wrote:
Tried the mass queens. Didn't work. Their range and dps are too low. A sentry cuts its ground damage to 2x2. Units with any base armor render them completely useless. Couldn't even push back after a nuke. I got 3 baneling nests and then made about 10 queens before we lost. Queens have recently been changed, I haven't tried them and I don't know what exactly they did other than making them smaller (which should be a buff except vs nukes). I guarantee that I won many many games with mass queen before the latest patch, vs marauder, vs immortal. They are definitely viable if difficult to set up. Try massing them later in the game...open baneling into sentry/immortal....then later game add on 8-10, they are great for preventing counter pushes due to their unkillability in a group. I wouldn't recommend going 3 baneling into queen, you are pushing tech too fast and your income will be crap slow. Also keep in mind that massqueen is literally 4x as powerful when you and your lane partner contribute. also if you queens aren't all synced you are wasting your time. If you are attempting to get massqueen going and your lane partner isn't at least competent you will get your ass raped, they have to be able to atleast keep the opponent off of your doorstep during your weak early-midgame until you get going. They should also ideally be mixing something like immortal/tank/thor to help your queens vs big targets. Then again queens could have been nerfed recently, I don't know what stat changes they made. also remember that your income is dependant on your structures....any time you are saving up you are losing money. -Queen: -Transfusion now heals targets only when they are lower than 50% hp -25 second cd on transfusion -Queen model and radius made smaller -Movement speed reduced to 2 -No longer biological so can't be healed with transfusion Now I know why my mass queens failed to do anything, and why as soon as I popped broodlords my lane turned into a stalemate despite the other team having a massive push.
Where did you find that information? I've been looking for the patch notes with no such luck.
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Queens now suck Just when I was getting used to the build order. The Mutalisk seems stronger now though, not sure why...
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Hey guys.
Is there any possibility to download the map or to donate a guestkey for the map maker to get him to release the newest versions on Europe ? Europe has only old custom maps its disgusting. The most played map is Nexus Wars Version 0.2 ..
The version is way behind all the versions i played in beta >.< It doesnt even have building descriptions, newbs dont know wich building brings wich units and that pylons give income.
The custom/fungamemap system is totally messed up right now. I Love good funmaps and hate to see whats happening right now :/
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On August 10 2010 00:27 TheFinalWord wrote:Show nested quote +On August 04 2010 17:02 sob3k wrote:. Spam HT later game, they do MASSIVE damage to a pushing ball....if there is one tip I have for Nexus Wars noobs then it is to make a ton of these.
Have you ever used high templar vs broodlords. You will lose automatically. All the high templar will storm your own units. I don't get these for this reason. I think it might even be better to destory your ht buildings if they get broodlords.
Please don't give advice until you have played more, HT do not damage friendly units with storm.
Mixing carrier/broodlord/a few lings is a good counter to storm though because their spawned units will take the brunt of the damage.
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as mentioned zealots are my first option as they are the strongest. As the op mentioned creep blocking was used quite often in war3 - ahh good times. Though I just timed the build times of the units so they would come out at roughly a similar time.
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I find banelings extremely strange at the moment, since they basically deny any money from kills to the other team. I have lost quite badly yesterday to two guys who literally only spammed banelings in the beginning, and then, after having about 5 baneling buildings each, switched to zerglings + tanks with much more income than i had, which in combination with the banelings than proceeded to destroy the few marauders i was able to get out with my sole income being those small amounts of minerals you get from having your buildings exist. Also, is it just me, or dont zerglings give any money to you when you kill them, too? Might all be relicts of an old version of the game on the EU servers, though.
This system of map distribution feels like it is really not working at all, and also seems to be way more complicated then necessary for everything except playing some random game from time to time.
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On August 10 2010 13:16 Simberto wrote:
I find banelings extremely strange at the moment, since they basically deny any money from kills to the other team. I have lost quite badly yesterday to two guys who literally only spammed banelings in the beginning, and then, after having about 5 baneling buildings each, switched to zerglings + tanks with much more income than i had, which in combination with the banelings than proceeded to destroy the few marauders i was able to get out with my sole income being those small amounts of minerals you get from having your buildings exist. Also, is it just me, or dont zerglings give any money to you when you kill them, too? Might all be relicts of an old version of the game on the EU servers, though.
This system of map distribution feels like it is really not working at all, and also seems to be way more complicated then necessary for everything except playing some random game from time to time.
I don't think ling give any money when killed, or banelings.
I do agree that banelings seem a bit overpowered as an opening...they should be changed to make it less of an obvious choice...I'm pretty sure they are by a large amount the best opening because of the sheer fact that they don't give the enemy any income and can hold off any other opening with relative ease (except maybe fast roach...but roaches are sooooo bad once anyone gets antiarmor).
I think banelings should be nerfed
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Has anyone tried to exploit scouts yet? The scout building is invincible, meaning that you can wall in a side, and either go air, or push the other lane.
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On August 10 2010 13:43 Chairman Ray wrote:
Has anyone tried to exploit scouts yet? The scout building is invincible, meaning that you can wall in a side, and either go air, or push the other lane.
can you still wall? I thought that was impossible now...
invincible building though....thats interesting...
seems like late game you could salvage everything and fill your whole plateau with scouts...impossible for the enemy to win....
I will go try it...if I can convince my tard ally...
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On August 10 2010 13:39 sob3k wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2010 13:16 Simberto wrote:
I find banelings extremely strange at the moment, since they basically deny any money from kills to the other team. I have lost quite badly yesterday to two guys who literally only spammed banelings in the beginning, and then, after having about 5 baneling buildings each, switched to zerglings + tanks with much more income than i had, which in combination with the banelings than proceeded to destroy the few marauders i was able to get out with my sole income being those small amounts of minerals you get from having your buildings exist. Also, is it just me, or dont zerglings give any money to you when you kill them, too? Might all be relicts of an old version of the game on the EU servers, though.
This system of map distribution feels like it is really not working at all, and also seems to be way more complicated then necessary for everything except playing some random game from time to time. I don't think ling give any money when killed, or banelings. I do agree that banelings seem a bit overpowered as an opening...they should be changed to make it less of an obvious choice...I'm pretty sure they are by a large amount the best opening because of the sheer fact that they don't give the enemy any income and can hold off any other opening with relative ease (except maybe fast roach...but roaches are sooooo bad once anyone gets antiarmor). I think banelings should be nerfed
Zerglings give zero bounty upon being killed. Which makes them a great opener to stagnant the opposing team and move to quick Roaches covered by Sentrys. Of course, never build more then 1-2 Roaches. What you want is to encourage them to build Marauders or Immortals and then pump out something to combat that.
As to Banelings, they give zero bounty when they explode. However, they give +3 minerals for a bounty if you can shoot them down before they reach you. Time a double Reaper with your teammate and you can pick them off before they reach you easily.
I've found myself doing 1 Ling, 1 Roach, 1 Sentry, 6 Hydra. Mixing in Reaper if they go Banelings. 2 Roach if they invest in Anti-Light units even after seeing the first Roaches. Lurkers if they lack stealth detection. Range upgrade on the Hydras after six sync'd spawns. I'll either finish with pure Hydra, Hydra/Lurker, or Hydra/Broodlord. Roach/Sentry is extremely debilitating to any attacking ranged force that isn't Marauder or Immortal. Roaches absorb a ridiculous amount of Banelings. The theme is that as soon as they would counter Roach/Sentry you have accumulated enough money to do mass Hydra. Generally they eventually push back the Roach/Sentry and manage to slowly creep their way back to your own base. By that time, the Hydras are coming out well in sync and slowly start dissolving their wave. Without nuking, you should be able to push them back. Hydras spawn so often if they don't nuke early the mass of them gets to be too large. The AoE counters are hampered by Zerg Air.
Of course, every strategy works best with your teammate working together on Syncs. Countering the opponents is key. Generally a strategy that implies a "counter or die" (such as Roach/Sentry) is not the winning strategy in itself. It's the fact that you know they are going to counter it with specific key units. Knowing which units counter the opposing units is key. So far, I've yet to leave the Zerg tech tree.
On a side note, double sync'd Zerglings with your teammate is hilarious. It will often push them back into their base and nearly kill them. Even if they become worthless later on.
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Are you absolutely sure that banelings give you money when killed? Because i am pretty convinced of the opposite, since i can not recall ever having seen a money number pop up when i killed a Baneling. Also, aren´t banelings not light, and thus the reapers are not very good against them? I am a bit lazy at the moment, but i will look these thinks up lateron.
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The very premise of this thread makes me giggle inside.
Anyway, banelings are NOT light units, which is what makes them potentially useful against hellions, once upgraded and on creep. I'm talking about melee games of course.
Strategy for Nexus Wars basically goes along the lines of, wait and see what units come walking down the lane, then make what you think "counters" it best. Try to mass many of the same DPS units when possible so that you can get the upgrade for them later if feasible. When choosing counters, think of in WoW terms of having tanks and DPS. Oh, and pray your teammates aren't idiots. lol
Take it for what you will, but my opinion of Nexus Wars is something mindless and easy to can play when on the phone or need to take a break from a losing streak that's evoked nerd rage in my Zergy heart.
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this game is so effing easy... (assuming you have competent partners)
my build is simple:
zel -> rine -> rine -> marauder -> marauder (or reaper if need detection) -> pylon -> income advantage over everyone else and start massing whatever you want... -> another pylon -> start up other tech trees -> more pylons -> 250+ income easily if you haven't won already
throw in a baeling for splash or some anit air in places if your team isnt doing it
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Pylons only are worth it after 10 incomes, which is more than 3 minutes (if you do not count bounty)
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Zerglings do give money when killed, but its 0.5 minerals for each, if you keep watching the minerals while you kill them you can confirm it, but it does not show up on the body when you kill them because its half a mineral.
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they need to update this map x1000
Castle fight was incredible in wc3 and this version is just missing sooooo many features
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Is it possible for anyone to upload the latest version to some site and then post the link here?
This map is awsome and i would love to play a later version than v0.2 wich is on the European servers atm.
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what is the best late game unit these days?
for T it should be thor BC with a curve of Thors shotting up
For P smhow carriers didnt do much as i thought
For Z i have no freaking clue@ mass hydra muta?
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*for the endgame*
Terran can do pretty much whatever they want. Mass marauder, thor and battle cruiser seems to be the best.
Protoss tend to use immortals or colussi backed by high templar and a crazy large air force.
Zerg:Ultralisk broodlords and hydra's plenty of hydra's
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Nexus Wars as it existed in beta and early release is essentially dead with the inclusion of Fog of War, which is voted on in the vast majority of games. Nexus Wars gameplay was about counters under a condition of perfect information, what we're seeing now is a completely new map. Since it's a map I have no interest in playing, I leave every game where the option gets voted on (after warning them I'd do so in the lobby), which all but dooms whatever team I was assigned to. Hardly ideal for anyone involved.
Thanks, Bnet 2.0, for making it impossible to advertise game modes!
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Or now it is possible to actually use invisible units and have some sort of strategy. Fog on is 10x better.
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All this talk about composition? You need to time your units so they come out in big balls rather than limbo lines.
I had a friend teach me this technique and its golden. You do it by canceling units so everything comes out at exactly the same time. With decent composition this will increase your power by 9000. Promise.
Exact. Timing.
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Did a quick search through the thread, and didn't really notice anybody mentioning abusing center building. Basically, if you build in the middle strip of your base (the one thats slightly different color), you can choose to rally on either top or bottom. The benefit of this is that it gives you great map control and can compensate for weaker allies. This effectively gives you the power to force the win with random teammates; in a normal situation where top and bottom each have two, you have limited power to help your team win.
In addition, this is particularly effective to force an early 3v2 on one side while other side is 1v2. The 3v2 should be powerful enough to force an early nuke; on the 1v2 side, once the enemy gets close, use SCVs to defend and re-rally your troops to defend (making it 2v2 effectively, again).
The route I tend to take is mass rines in the middle (they're the best support unit early on), then switch to sentries or marauders in the middle. If they have particularly weak anti air, I might go banshees in the middle instead of sentry/marauder. Here's a sample replay of it:
http://rapidshare.com/files/413154087/Nexus_Wars__21_.SC2Replay
They arguably had a better starting race/unit composition than we did, but I think effective use of rallied marine support from the middle turned the wave over several times. Plus, we forced 2 early nukes by the time one of our partners left which minimized the impact of him leaving. We're the team on the right.
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What's up with the new version? Seems that the lobby is 5v3 and everyone is placed on a random team. That means we can't get an arranged 4-man stomp anymore. When is he going to fix it so that the teams are predetermined?
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On August 10 2010 10:34 sob3k wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2010 00:27 TheFinalWord wrote:On August 04 2010 17:02 sob3k wrote:. Spam HT later game, they do MASSIVE damage to a pushing ball....if there is one tip I have for Nexus Wars noobs then it is to make a ton of these.
Have you ever used high templar vs broodlords. You will lose automatically. All the high templar will storm your own units. I don't get these for this reason. I think it might even be better to destory your ht buildings if they get broodlords. Please don't give advice until you have played more, HT do not damage friendly units with storm. Mixing carrier/broodlord/a few lings is a good counter to storm though because their spawned units will take the brunt of the damage.
I thought they did, maybe only in the SEA version.
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What's up with the new version? Seems that the lobby is 5v3 and everyone is placed on a random team. That means we can't get an arranged 4-man stomp anymore. When is he going to fix it so that the teams are predetermined?
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Zealot->Marine seems to be the best opener that I've found. Marines are too squishy in small numbers and Zealots too expensive. Everything else get beaten to a critical mass by marines.
Then add in hellions/tanks/marauders depending on what your opponent is building. Hydras rock too, but you have to tech through zerglings (crap) and they are pricy compared to marines.
HTs are AWESOME if you are behind and need to catch up. Sentries are very handy in marine vs marine games.
Usually though Terran is the way to go. Late game Carriers are very powerful however, especially with Battlecruisers (aka Tanks of the sky) in front to soak damage/kill ground units.
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Does anyone know if it is possible for you and a friend to play against the AI on the same team? I've tried all kinds of stuff and can't seem to get it to work, it will always split you up.
edit: nvm, the party then public game made it work. Just too bad the computer is so horrible, they can't stay alive at all
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What's the best strat if people turtle, like mass baneling with cannons behind a wall of baneling nests ? My teammates did that in their lane and totally owned last game, eventually teching to mass dingle+BC (their lane was covered in like 500 point defense drones at every single point).
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On August 19 2010 16:18 haveblue wrote:
What's up with the new version? Seems that the lobby is 5v3 and everyone is placed on a random team. That means we can't get an arranged 4-man stomp anymore. When is he going to fix it so that the teams are predetermined?
You have to scroll down a little bit the one with 5v3 random teams is actually Custom Custom game type look for the one that says Nexus Wars Nexus Wars.
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On August 19 2010 16:18 haveblue wrote:
What's up with the new version? Seems that the lobby is 5v3 and everyone is placed on a random team. That means we can't get an arranged 4-man stomp anymore. When is he going to fix it so that the teams are predetermined?
It's not that way on purpose. During the last Bnet update, all of the maps seemed to be wiped from the server and needed to be uploaded. Two different people uploaded the map. One of them uploaded it properly so that it played as a 4v4. The other (idiot) uploaded it improperly, so it ended up being a 5v3. And unfortunately, an even bigger number of idiots (the overwhelming majority of SC2 players, it seems) continued to join the wrong version of the game, thereby dwindling the popularity of the version that was correctly uploaded.
tl;dr: it's not his fault; it's your fault.
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Has anyone seen the exploit where 2 people build buildings in a corner to box all their units in, allowing them to mass units and then they destroy a barracks to let the massed units out? I had this happen to me in a game by Kriegsherr and SirV.
My teammate and I both zergling spammed and then went mass roaches/ hydras. They had to nuke twice and throw a cannon up. They returned with momentum, we put a cannon up and nuked. We were coming back for the win and then suddenly there was a huge mass of enemy at their choke point.. WTF? We nuked again and gained momentum and were going in for the win again.. and suddenly the same bullshit.
Beginning to hate this retarded crap. I could of sworn that in another game I was in, the enemy players had excessive amounts of minerals like they were using a trainer. I watched a replay and they didn't build a single pylon. But somehow their income was MUCH higher then my teams and we DID have pylons.
/rant off
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On August 21 2010 21:18 Thengine wrote:
Has anyone seen the exploit where 2 people build buildings in a corner to box all their units in, allowing them to mass units and then they destroy a barracks to let the massed units out? I had this happen to me in a game by Kriegsherr and SirV.
My teammate and I both zergling spammed and then went mass roaches/ hydras. They had to nuke twice and throw a cannon up. They returned with momentum, we put a cannon up and nuked. We were coming back for the win and then suddenly there was a huge mass of enemy at their choke point.. WTF? We nuked again and gained momentum and were going in for the win again.. and suddenly the same bullshit.
Beginning to hate this retarded crap. I could of sworn that in another game I was in, the enemy players had excessive amounts of minerals like they were using a trainer. I watched a replay and they didn't build a single pylon. But somehow their income was MUCH higher then my teams and we DID have pylons.
/rant off
I do a similar build with rines but for some reason lately it's bugging like hell. Say I cornered them solid and I wanna send them out after 3 spawns or so so I salvage a rax but they don't move out; they're frozen for the rest of the game. :s
That sucks, cause not only did the lane push back to us we won't be able to counter it soon.
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I usually start with a single pool and have a partner get a zealot. I then either get a roach or a hydra. Generally once the hydra/zealot start coming in together, we quickily get a push. I might put another den or two down then. I've had people need to nuke like 6 hydras in the first 5 minutes of the game.
Then I switch to terran. Get marauders/rines, banshees, vikings, and eventually cruisers. all that jazz.
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On August 22 2010 00:16 Therickz wrote:Here is how to win nexus war, always + Show Spoiler +just keep on making dem
Have fun when you get bane/stormed...
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On August 21 2010 21:18 Thengine wrote:
Has anyone seen the exploit where 2 people build buildings in a corner to box all their units in, allowing them to mass units and then they destroy a barracks to let the massed units out? I had this happen to me in a game by Kriegsherr and SirV.
My teammate and I both zergling spammed and then went mass roaches/ hydras. They had to nuke twice and throw a cannon up. They returned with momentum, we put a cannon up and nuked. We were coming back for the win and then suddenly there was a huge mass of enemy at their choke point.. WTF? We nuked again and gained momentum and were going in for the win again.. and suddenly the same bullshit.
Beginning to hate this retarded crap. I could of sworn that in another game I was in, the enemy players had excessive amounts of minerals like they were using a trainer. I watched a replay and they didn't build a single pylon. But somehow their income was MUCH higher then my teams and we DID have pylons.
/rant off
This is known as caging. It should have been fixed in the newest version of the game. According to the map maker's notes, any units caged will automatically blink outside the cage.
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On August 24 2010 00:29 HungShark wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2010 21:18 Thengine wrote:
Has anyone seen the exploit where 2 people build buildings in a corner to box all their units in, allowing them to mass units and then they destroy a barracks to let the massed units out? I had this happen to me in a game by Kriegsherr and SirV.
My teammate and I both zergling spammed and then went mass roaches/ hydras. They had to nuke twice and throw a cannon up. They returned with momentum, we put a cannon up and nuked. We were coming back for the win and then suddenly there was a huge mass of enemy at their choke point.. WTF? We nuked again and gained momentum and were going in for the win again.. and suddenly the same bullshit.
Beginning to hate this retarded crap. I could of sworn that in another game I was in, the enemy players had excessive amounts of minerals like they were using a trainer. I watched a replay and they didn't build a single pylon. But somehow their income was MUCH higher then my teams and we DID have pylons.
/rant off This is known as caging. It should have been fixed in the newest version of the game. According to the map maker's notes, any units caged will automatically blink outside the cage.
Yeah, caging wasn't very effective and it was pretty simple to deal with but it really was a great example of creativity and I am quite sad to see it go... Its very much like the creativity that lead to muta stacking in BW. All things considered though, Nexus Wars is by far the best UMS right now. I should know cuz I've played over 500 games so far Would love to see a ladder though cuz playing with pubs on your team really sucks if you happen to get noobs who double rax and the like...
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[QUOTE]On August 20 2010 12:15 NoobieOne wrote:
[QUOTE]On August 19 2010 16:18 haveblue wrote:
What's up with the new version? Seems that the lobby is 5v3 and everyone is placed on a random team. That means we can't get an arranged 4-man stomp anymore. When is he going to fix it so that the teams are predetermined?[/QUOTE]
And what the hell is up with the 30 second countdown timer?
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I've noticed that more lately, these people would just nuke at the beginning of the game and kill off the nexus...
It's really pissing me off
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In my opinion if you get your part to open 3-5 pools, while you open 5 reaperes you'll force the opponents to use the first nuke. Reason being, reapers eat all early units but are a fairly weak tanking unit so throw lings in and walla
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Is there an irc or sc2 channel where it is possible to organize in-house nexus wars games? Hell even 2v2 in-house would be awesome as long as enough people are willing to play with each other consistently.
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I would like there to be a ladder so that i dont spend every other game coaching my lane-mate through his first game ever. Not that i mind losing (its a custom game, as long as i dont spend like 30 minutes to lose i dont give a damn), but i cannot concentrate on teaching AND analyzing.
One other thing that sucks it when a person leaves because the settings werent the way he wanted them. They need to make a way to keep people from playing Nexus Wars while the game they left is still in progress, that way people think twice about rage-quitting from settings.
AFKs. You hate 'em, I hate 'em, we all have to deal with 'em. After one or two minutes of inactivity, the game needs to boot AFKs and replace them with bots. They will suck and do their own thing, but they will make units, which is better than the AFK would be doing.
Is there a website for the game? Im sure there is, but I cant remember the site name that is in the loading screen, and i sure as hell start a game just to write that down when someone could tell me on this thread.
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Australia2 Posts
Hi all please excuse my super noob question.
I was playing on Taiwan server when it was public beta and got hooked on the Nexus War.
Yesterday my Australian copy finally arrived and I played for the 1st time on the SEA server, horrified the Nexus War to be a very very old version, which leads me to the question: how does the map management works in Starcraft 2?
I tried to find the folder that contains the maps but couldn't find it. So I couldn't check what's the version of the Nexus War that I was playing last night. Where to find the latest map and how to make it spread on SEA server? Or did I miss something?
Thanks very much for help!
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I usually go zealot first, then depending on what my teammate and other side are doing either banelings or sentry next. I then usually try get about 4-6 roach dens asap. Usually this lets me get a good push at first. What I get next depends on what opponent is getting. Eventually when my income is close to 100, I tech to void rays and just go void rays till I hit food cap. ]
Void rays are op in this game. I usually ask my partner to go mass thors, and with mass thors+void rays I've never seen it lose. Even with a nuke, if you have 20 or more void ray spawners and set it to spawn simultaenously, it usually is still enough to continue pushing forward. Once you obtain a critical mass of void rays they literally just disintegrate everything almost instantaneously. Only times I've lost using mass void rays was when mass void rays was used against me lol.
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What I have learned through pubstomping with pretty much a 100% win ratio with 4 friends in skype:
1. Even with perfect unit composition and perfect unit synchronization, if your enemy builds the right amount of pylons at the right time for a faster 90/90, they WILL BEAT YOU assuming that they have the slightest idea what they're doing.
2. Early game (<30 income) mass high temps will push ANYTHING back. While sending a line of units into their death into an opponent's wave, the unit will get one or two hits off before dying, while a templar will cast storm and deal his full damage potential to a huge clump of units instantly, regardless of how quickly it does.
3. AOE units OWN. Ultras and HT OWN. Firebats and hellions and lurkers don't hit enough at a time so they don't count.
Here's a strat that I both advise you to try and attempt to counter in the current state of balance.
Player 1 starts out with maybe 6 banelings (zerglings are worthless) and masses nothing but queens the rest of the game.
Player 2 starts with a few sentries (zealots are worthless), then 8 or so HT's, goes ultralisk until maybe 75/90, then medivac until 90/90. Upgrade ultralisk armor after you have around 5 of them.
At around 50 or so income, make 3 or so pylons each while your force is pushing to gain a huge income advantage and reach 90/90 the quickest. We typically reach 90/90 at 25 minutes, 5 minutes faster than you can achieve this without pylons. The game typically ends right about 30mins. This is especially awesome if you see them going cannon, which essentially guarantees the game as you'll have double their income after a few pylons.
Queens are useless against ground, but provide you with a guaranteed counter to any air they build. Queens with their current 10 range destroy air. Even mass BCs and carriers/VR. HT's and banelings are enough to counter any early-mid ground army before you get Ultralisks. Once Ultras are out, with transfuse they destroy everything ground. Not even immortals can touch them. The first ultralisk timed with a bunch of synched queens is hilarious. It'll get transfused like 10 times and will literally get 30 kills and tank 2000dmg before it dies. Take note that the ultralisk won't die immediately since the enemy push will be cut down drastically by the HT's.
You can spare to built pylons because:
1) You no longer require extra forces to prolong the push and force the enemy nuke.
2) By the time they push near your base after the nuke, those 3-4 pylons would have provided a large enough income and production advantage to push pretty much any wave back, especially with the storms and transfusions. An instant heal is much much better than a constant slow heal from medivacs and SVs.
We've also won terribly with no nukes or cannons used with mass queens, sentries, infestors, HTs, ghosts, and medivacs. The enemy is forced to nuke, then nuke again a minute later, and then leave.
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I've been opening 2rine then 1maraduer, 1 reaper, 1 maraduer, 1 reaper, 1 maraduer, 1 maraduer.
Then I switch to zerg, where I go 1 ling, 1 hydra, 1 muta, 4 queens, 4 brood lords, upgrades, and then as I get to the first ramp I make 6-8 banelings with hooks.
After this I just make units to counter their builds since i'm not yet capped.
I'm approx 20-3 using this.
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hello! have tried to find any information about this but did not find any so I am asking: is there a version of nexus wars 2v2 out yet? or is it possible to make a 2v2 by creating the lobby yourself?
Nexus wars 2v2 would be so sweet =) also hard to get 4 mates at the same team in this game, cuz the "teamup" is like p1, p3, p5 and p7 will get on the same team and vica verca
so anyone have any answers? would really like to play nexus wars 2v2 :D it must be great.
thx
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GUYS... I need to know; I'm playing $400/game against this guy, he was stuck $3200 but now he's crushing me with mass Mutas. First I loss $1600, then we did double or nothing, and now we're EVEN.
I've been doing the 5marine/4marauder --> hellion-->medivac --> banshee strat.. but by the time I start hellions, he's got his first spire up. From there, he just masses spires. Getting vikings at this point is extremely slow. Should I transition into more marines? DOES MASS MARINES JUST RAPE MASS MUTAS? tytyty, really need this answer quick, going to play more.
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Thors. Mutas will clumb together = they get destroyed.
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The trick of the game is to build a lot of HTs.
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2 Spawning Pool, Roach, into infester and muta = win
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Since this is a team game, I've been focusing on team strategies. Even though everyone loves to hate Toss, Mass carriers are effective against pretty much everything. My partner is a Terran who play very complementary to my style. I've even got a BO:
Zealot
Stalker
*(See Below)
Phoenix
Carrier (repeated)
Banpei (when comfortable)
The carrier comes out incredibly fast and dominates everything early on. I take a big hit econ wise, but I build a Banpei as soon as we're pushing, and I usually catch back up pretty quickly.
* This point in the build is entirely dependent on the game. If they'r egoing heavy marine or ling/bling, I make a HT. If I see Marauder/Stalker/Roach, I get an immortal. If we're doing fine, I skip this step altogether and go straight into Phoenix.
What do you think?
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zeal + double marine is probably the strongest lane to begin with
if you are pushed back to a cannon or two, put a couple cheap raxes or something in font to shield your cannon so it doesn't get focus fired and to block melee units
pure mass baneling is lulz
late-late game, if maxed, make pylon walls everywhere to block enemy units, control the paths of your own units, and narrow chokes
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On November 13 2010 13:14 iGrok wrote:
Since this is a team game, I've been focusing on team strategies. Even though everyone loves to hate Toss, Mass carriers are effective against pretty much everything. My partner is a Terran who play very complementary to my style. I've even got a BO:
Zealot
Stalker
*(See Below)
Phoenix
Carrier (repeated)
Banpei (when comfortable)
The carrier comes out incredibly fast and dominates everything early on. I take a big hit econ wise, but I build a Banpei as soon as we're pushing, and I usually catch back up pretty quickly.
* This point in the build is entirely dependent on the game. If they'r egoing heavy marine or ling/bling, I make a HT. If I see Marauder/Stalker/Roach, I get an immortal. If we're doing fine, I skip this step altogether and go straight into Phoenix.
What do you think?
BCs and Carriers are quite bad in this game, to be honest.
Your early game is also bad, because despite the fact that Zealot and Stalker have the same building time, they have different speed so you can't actually sync them. Any mix of units will beat a Zealot and a Stalker, which will definitely force you to get cannons or use nukes in early game.
I'd say ditch Carriers altogether. But if you have to, start with at least one Zealot and some Sentries/HTs until you are comfortable enough to tech. It is absolutely essential that you have a good economy before getting capital units because they build way too slow and having them sent to the opponent in piecemeal will get you owned.
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I like to either do a zergling into fast roach, or one marine into fast marauders, into 3 marauders + 3 firebats. This will anihilate any sort of infantry units. Zealot into Stalker or Immortal works well also.
It's all situational though. You've got to observe and counter.
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On November 14 2010 05:46 Sufficiency wrote:Show nested quote +On November 13 2010 13:14 iGrok wrote:
Since this is a team game, I've been focusing on team strategies. Even though everyone loves to hate Toss, Mass carriers are effective against pretty much everything. My partner is a Terran who play very complementary to my style. I've even got a BO:
Zealot
Stalker
*(See Below)
Phoenix
Carrier (repeated)
Banpei (when comfortable)
The carrier comes out incredibly fast and dominates everything early on. I take a big hit econ wise, but I build a Banpei as soon as we're pushing, and I usually catch back up pretty quickly.
* This point in the build is entirely dependent on the game. If they're going heavy marine or ling/bling, I make a HT. If I see Marauder/Stalker/Roach, I get an immortal. If we're doing fine, I skip this step altogether and go straight into Phoenix.
What do you think? BCs and Carriers are quite bad in this game, to be honest. Your early game is also bad, because despite the fact that Zealot and Stalker have the same building time, they have different speed so you can't actually sync them. Any mix of units will beat a Zealot and a Stalker, which will definitely force you to get cannons or use nukes in early game. I'd say ditch Carriers altogether. But if you have to, start with at least one Zealot and some Sentries/HTs until you are comfortable enough to tech. It is absolutely essential that you have a good economy before getting capital units because they build way too slow and having them sent to the opponent in piecemeal will get you owned.
Well this is kind of the equivalent of an all-in. Carriers are very good against most early compositions. With an ally who can hold off, a quick carrier gives a strong, fast push. Usually my opponents throw up massive numbers of vikings or mutas, at which point i laugh as my terran buddy's thors wipe them from the sky. But it's certainly an all-in, if this doesn't work we tend to lose in short order. I'm managing a ~70% win ratio with it though
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On November 14 2010 11:03 iGrok wrote:Show nested quote +On November 14 2010 05:46 Sufficiency wrote:On November 13 2010 13:14 iGrok wrote:
Since this is a team game, I've been focusing on team strategies. Even though everyone loves to hate Toss, Mass carriers are effective against pretty much everything. My partner is a Terran who play very complementary to my style. I've even got a BO:
Zealot
Stalker
*(See Below)
Phoenix
Carrier (repeated)
Banpei (when comfortable)
The carrier comes out incredibly fast and dominates everything early on. I take a big hit econ wise, but I build a Banpei as soon as we're pushing, and I usually catch back up pretty quickly.
* This point in the build is entirely dependent on the game. If they're going heavy marine or ling/bling, I make a HT. If I see Marauder/Stalker/Roach, I get an immortal. If we're doing fine, I skip this step altogether and go straight into Phoenix.
What do you think? BCs and Carriers are quite bad in this game, to be honest. Your early game is also bad, because despite the fact that Zealot and Stalker have the same building time, they have different speed so you can't actually sync them. Any mix of units will beat a Zealot and a Stalker, which will definitely force you to get cannons or use nukes in early game. I'd say ditch Carriers altogether. But if you have to, start with at least one Zealot and some Sentries/HTs until you are comfortable enough to tech. It is absolutely essential that you have a good economy before getting capital units because they build way too slow and having them sent to the opponent in piecemeal will get you owned. Well this is kind of the equivalent of an all-in. Carriers are very good against most early compositions. With an ally who can hold off, a quick carrier gives a strong, fast push. Usually my opponents throw up massive numbers of vikings or mutas, at which point i laugh as my terran buddy's thors wipe them from the sky. But it's certainly an all-in, if this doesn't work we tend to lose in short order. I'm managing a ~70% win ratio with it though
I doubt all-in works. Nukes will break any kinds of strategic play.
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actually, if you build carriers and heavy units on the line you can effectively all-in even with nukes. You can force a double nuke by sending a pair of carriers to the other track so they hit right after their nuke lands. I mean, you have to guess when they'll nuke, but with practice, predicting it isn't all that hard.
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On November 14 2010 14:10 iGrok wrote:
actually, if you build carriers and heavy units on the line you can effectively all-in even with nukes. You can force a double nuke by sending a pair of carriers to the other track so they hit right after their nuke lands. I mean, you have to guess when they'll nuke, but with practice, predicting it isn't all that hard.
Actually, I just played someone who went fast carriers today. It was extremely easy to beat.
Because Carriers's build time is so long, I just ignored it while my ally on my lane made 3 Stalker Spawns. That was enough to stop the Carrier because Stalkers build almost twice as fast as Carriers and cost less than half of Carriers and 4-5 Stalkers pwn a Carrier with ease.
Near the end of the game we had ~15 Stalker Spawns and that was enough to beat his 6 Carrier Spawns with ease. We were on a winning battle the whole time.
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As a team I have been liking zerg, zerg a lot because of mass hydras. Hydras will always spread out to get good conclaves and then when they push they will force a double nuke. So even if you end up nukeing first (which you shouldn't with well placed cannons and chalupas) you will still have the nuke advantage.
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Anyone notice how strong a roach opening has been since the new patch? You can't push them back without roaches of your own.
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1 zergling into roach is extremely broken right now. No other opening touches it for power and quickness.
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On November 15 2010 12:38 AndAgain wrote:
Anyone notice how strong a roach opening has been since the new patch? You can't push them back without roaches of your own.
On November 15 2010 13:04 Bac wrote:
1 zergling into roach is extremely broken right now. No other opening touches it for power and quickness.
I agree completely. My most common BO is ling-roach-roach, and after syncing the roaches, and with an ally that makes pretty much anything really, it's enough to push into their base, and unless the other team handles it very well, it results in an easy win. Meanwhile, I'm safe to tech hydra-muta-broodlord, and go broodlord/corruptor in the middle lane. But the followup isn't important really. It's just that ling-roach-roach, especially done with an ally, is extremely powerful.
If I don't go ling-roach opening, I usually do an opening specifically catered to stop ling-roach. I open 1 marine, and check my opponents and their income. If I see an opponent in my lane with just a pair of lings coming out, and 12 or 15 income, I can expect roaches, and I've got almost enough saved up for a marauder already. But in practice, that hasn't even worked, because the marauders will usually target lings or marines or sentries instead of roaches, and get killed for nothing. So the best I've been able to do against ling-roach is to open marine-firebat actually. It's a bit counter-intuitive, but the firebat will roast lings, marines, sentries, etc. and tank quite a bit of damage, giving time for my marines and SCVs to kill the roaches.
That said, the roach in Nexus Wars is basically a cheaper zealot with range right now. While the zealot technically has higher dps than a roach, the roach has range while the zealot becomes wasteful as the game progresses. Also the roach is cheaper by a significant amount when it comes to early game.
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I have never had problems with ling to 2xRoach. It's comparable to Zealot + Sentry, actually. Besides, early advantages mean nothing.
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I am going to ruin a few lives and share some secrets.
The correct opening per side is 2 Rax and 1 gateway (there are 2 of you afterall). This unit combination do best vs the normal openings; Ling/Baneling, double Gateway, mass Marines, as well as all the oddball fast Reaper, mass Sentry, randomness. It opens up players to the best 2 tech trees and means that you can access the best units fastest with the most resiliency.
From there, the Terran player will either immediately get Hellions or get quick Firebat vs. heavy Lings and Zealots. Hellions should be for a few Lings, Zealots, but are strictly inferior to Firebats if they are pushing you.
The Protoss player is going to be our endgame champ. He is going to cover getting Sentries vs mass Marine or any other ranged base strat, but basically start saving for an Immortal vs Marauders/Roaches/Stalkers or going for a SUPER fast Pylon. Yes that is right. if you can hold them steady, going Immortal->Pylon or Sentry->Pylon, ends up paying huge as long as you dont have to nuke.
PRO TIP: It is best to get pushed early when the added firepower of your worker is worth more. Later, you will have to throw down a nuke, but I have played very slowly a ton and used my worker to fend off fast rushes.
Basically the game plan will be to use as few Marines as possible to safely get 5-6 Banshees for Terran while Protoss will be playing as greedy as possible to start massing on Pylons and relying on Zealots, Sentries, and Immortals. Colossi are rarely worth the investment. Templar are a complete waste ALWAYS.
Your endgame goal is going to be Mass Thors and Mass Carriers/Void Rays. Using Banshees to force a ton of bad anti-air stuff is GREAT because when you start massing on Thors, they will have a lot of stuff to be splashed. Carriers are stupid good when they are facing not-Mutas, basically, and the Thors solve that because Mutas clump in this game.
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are upgrades worth the money, do you think?
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On November 15 2010 17:02 gilligan156 wrote:
are upgrades worth the money, do you think?
they are worth the money once you hit unit cap, besides a few select ones. Stimpack is the of the few pre food cap ones.
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4 rax
2 sentries
(1 banes nest if alot of lings)
2 marauders
1 hellion
1 medivac
1 banshee
1 zealot
mass immortals from then on, mix in a few sentries here and there
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Seems like when it gets to late-game, Thor/Science Vessel is pretty dominant. Though, maybe I just got Immortals too late.
Edit:
Errr, sorry for the pseudo-necropost.
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> Nexus Wars
> Strategy
dohohoho
But in all seriousness, I always pick Zerg and when I play a game, I will ALWAYS try to make as much zerglings as I can before I tech up to Roaches or hydras. So I've been wondering, if anyone else does this, what do you think is the best time to cut off zerglings and tech up?
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Actually, I've found a pretty effective strategy with which I have not lost once.
5 banelings(as banelings do not give your opponents money, they are very effective early on)
1 ling nest
Now, depending on if the enemy has gone armored or not(I.e getting immortals/marauders),
If not:
10 roaches
10 zerglings
Bane speed
zergling speed
If yes:
10 zerglings
10 roaches
Bane speed
Zergling speed
Now, get
10 hydras
Hydra range
5 queens(detection and a.a)
3 ultras
ultra armor
After this, the enemy is pretty much dead. You should now get a pylon and fully upgrade it, then get upgrades(start with ground armor) and continue to get upgrades until you win.
If the enemy goes air:
10 infestors
20 mutas
15 corrupters
As I said before, I have never lost with this strategy and had even found time to help the side I'm not working on.
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I'm having a lot of sucsess with going 4 rax then either 3 murader if they are going hard early armored or hellion if they are going for a lot of light.
I've had a lot of wins from a great timeing with hellions and bansee's aloneside my marines bansee's just go behind the lines when your ground force dies or when they go air and it really really effects the enemy armies. not to mention its a hard counter to immos wearing them down so much as they reinforce.
Its a really fun and basic map good for thinking and making decisions. All Air is a bit op though in late game with protoss having the best of it in void rays massed up.
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I normally go 3 rax, then either a reaper or a marauder, then hellion -> medivac -> mass banshee viking
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I stopped playing this couple months ago (on EU) when you could just mass infestors and win.
ling -> hydra -> mass infestors then corruptor or w.e
Or you get those idiots that build structures to block a lane so it diverts all monster one lane. That's when I stopped playing. Plus it seems EU version hardly gets updated
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I saw this get necro'ed the other day and just wanted to say that a lot of the unit composition strategies are not nearly as important as midding. I play this quite a bit and most of the old ways to build up a rediculously sized army besides winning a slow push have been patched. You used to be able to contain all of your units inside a ring of buildings and then salvage the buildings to release the wave -- that was fixed. You used to be able to create a wall and have everything rally to one side (and switch the rally point to the front of the buildings to send back to the same side) -- that appears to be fixed as well. The only thing left now is building on the mid-line and switching rallys up and down.
There are actually a few nuances to doing this really well. The best way to do this is with a team who shares control and syncs all of the units. Then you get waves of 4v2 on each lane -- guess who wins. It forces cannons and nukes really quickly and often ends the game before the 15 minute mark.
Midding is not new but it seems to be more powerful now. You used to be able to only mid exactly on the center line, but now you can build with one half of your building on the centerline and still rally to either side. This allows you to build more buidlings on mid. When you do this though, you need to leave space horizontally between buildings, otherwise there will be no exit for the units on the other side of the mid line. So this means you need to learn which units require only one space between buildings, and which units require two (like thor & ultra). You also need to determine whether you want to "micro" your rally points and spawn timings in order to gain an additional advantage by building buildings in blocks of four.
Building in blocks of four means you will be able to fit more ground units on the mid line, but it means you cannot just simply hotkey all your buildings and right click all the rally points up or down and forward. You will have to go back and select the rear two of each block and rally it up or down and back. If you have everything of the same timing snyced like this some units (like marauders and roaches) will not have enough room to both spawn across the mid line, so a few might wind up going to the opposite lane, this is not completely bad, but it disallows your entire army from sticking together in one lane. To fix this you will have to make the sync slightly off so that the front buildings and rear buildings spawn just a few seconds off from each other.
Air buildings do not require any spaces to be rallied to either lane.
Basically midding works because you force an imablance that the other team cannot match at that point of the game. Early on, you can deal with most threats on the non-rushed lane with just SCV attacking. However, the other lane will be hard pressed to hold off with just SCVs because the number and type of units used in the push are generally more than SCVs can handle. This forces cannons (or straight nukes), which unless really lucky will go down. And if they go down, they will have to nuke. Not only does this use up a nuke, but it causes economic damage. While this goes on, your team builds freely while scv attacking to fill in the missing dps in the early game. You get your pylons faster, you get a bigger army faster, and you have the flexibility of sending most of your entire force to one lane. It is really the only "strategy" element left in the game. Some call it cheese, and in a sense they are right, but while the rest of the game is essenitally trying to build blind counters, it fills in the void of control you can take over the flow of the game. And both sides have equal opportunity to abuse it.
Anyway, the compositions I've found to be fairly effective at midding are:
Protoss (I've found it best to get the pylon after the first or second immortal is out):
Just you -- Zealot (in front of nexus), sentry (behind nexus), stalker (in front of zealot, leave a space), Immortal x4 (in front of stalker, leave a space), phoenix (next to sentry), Void ray x6 (beside buildings in front of nexus), Carrier til cap (on low ground, all clumped).
You and one partner -- Same build, only your partner builds on one side of mid and you on the other, voids start on low ground, carriers finish mid, you should have 12 supply left so you and your partner can pick a side a choose what to build, I go with colussus or carrier usually.
You and whole team -- Zealot (in front of nexus, all four do this, it is a very strong start), sentry (behind nexus, only two do this), Immortals x2 each (the two who do not sentry save for immortals, then the other two will catch up and build immortals), at some point the two who did not sentry may want to make one on their lane just to have some permenant detection, then all get stalker and pheonix on their side, then all Void ray x2 on low ground (can go up to x4), then carriers low until done and then on a side to finish, other stuff can be mixed in as needed when mid is done (it finishes much faster with 4 peeps building) but this should pretty easily win the game, and often does at the immortal stage.
Zerg (plyon somewhere around the hydra):
Just you -- zergling (pick somewhere off mid), x4-x6 roaches, 2 sentry behind (g shield & detection, queens are not usually fast enough, though if you want to be purist, queens here), finish up to x8 roaches in front (space between each pair), x2-x4 hydra (2 if did sentry, 4 if queens, fill in last 2 spots with queens if did sentry), low ground, x4 lurker (boxed), x4 infestor (boxed), 2x ultra (skip two spaces), mutalisk (on high ground), x4 broodlords in front of ultra (I usually finish out with banelings on the sid ewe are pushing for the win to help take down cannons/buildings.
You and one partner -- Basically the same build but now both sides can build banelings or corruptors or race switch or whatever, really, roach rush often wins with a team doing it before 15 minute mark. With two poeple each builds one half of the above and then has PLENTY of supply left to do whatever.
You and whole team -- Again, basically the same build, although, you will probably wind up filling the high ground with roaches and then win. That many roaches that fast is really powerful.
Terran (pylon somewhere around the first thor, before of after, terran is hardest to be successful with when midding just as a fair warning):
Just you -- reaper (behind), marine (behind next to reaper), x8 maraduer (front, x2, the box, then x2 -- you will want to micro your spawn/rallies to make this work, you will also want to get both upgrades either before or after first thor), hellion (off mid, pick a side), x2 thor (finish box with last two maraduers) x4 thors (boxed, finishes high ground), medivac (off mid, pick a side), x2 science vessle ("dingle", one on each side off mid or on mid, u pick), battlecruisers (low ground until cap)
You and one partner -- Basically the same build, but you will either decide to put reapers or marines on back mid before hand and the other off mid each on one side, then everything else is built half amounts so more thors and BCs can be built low ground mid.
You and a team -- Basically the same build, but two reapers will be in the back mid and all other reaper/marine will be split evenly on both sides off mid. Lost of thor BC will ensue. After mid is covered, there should be supply left to build whatever else is needed.
Always remember to upgrade pylons when you can, the income boost can be the difference between success and failure, even with midding if it gets past the early game. Also remember upgrades and heros in the late game. Often you will hear not to get upgrades before you are maxed, but I think once you hit 60 supply and have a decent number of endgame units, you can begin some upgrades, though not past level 3/4 before maxing. I think a good rule of thumb is to have 3/3, lvl 4 pylon, and a kerrigan around the time you are about to max. Then after getting a kerrigan, and are at max supply, finish pylon upgrade then finish attack/armor upgrades.
Anyway, I'm sure you can mid with other compositions, but these are the ones that have worked for me (again, terran is still somewhat iffy, especially alone). Once you start midding, it is really hard to go back. If you thought this was a boring game where you just build up, let your SCV sit around, and hope that no one yells "REPAIR TOP CANON PLZ!!!" until the end of the game, I urge you to try midding. Learn midding. Teach midding. I think there is a lot of untapped potential in this game that would be fleshed out with a good team midding on both sides.
The only downside to midding that I can see, is that a team with shared control, while the most efficient for the pruposes of syncing and re-rallying (switching), is that the other players do not get to do as much once the lane switching has commenced. Sure, everyone is still building their own buildings, and upgrading their own upgrades, and nuking their own nukes, and microing their own heros, but the team captain has to do that and keep up the syncing and switching. That might not seem like a lot more, but it is actually quite a bit more because that person really is the carry for the team. His decision could make the game a win or a loss. That said, the game isn't really much different for the other players than if you hadn't midded, accept that you will have some extra SCV attack micro at the beginning instead of sitting around. Plus there's the increase in win rate... so all things considered, midding's pluses outweight the minuses in my eyes.
Oh, and for anyone wondering about putting cannons for the lane that is not being pushed when the whole team is pushing one side.... AVOID THIS AT ALL COSTS. You really do not need cannons until maybe the late game if you need them at all. You should be up on nukes, and your mid spawns will eventually crush the attackers from the the lane once they reach your mid line. The spawn will pop, the enemies dies, and goes down the rallied lane. You have plenty of time to attack with SCVs and repair buildings without hurting your economy with cannons 99% of the time. Concentrate on building army and econ.
What would be cool is if there were some other roles that could be added to the game like the syncer/switcher so that everyone on a shared control team could do something extra to help out the win, but I'm not sure what could be done in this regard. Ideas?
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This is a late post but i was wondering if anyone knows where i might contact the creator of nexus wars.
Whenever a game goes past 40 minutes it just becomes unbalanced and unplayable. I've had a bunch of games where we would be up 4 nukes to zero and come the 40 minute mark they push us somehow some way and we lose even with 4 nukes. I've used ghosts HT's everything basically and we still lose.
This one game went into the 40 minute mark and the other guys had the exact same things as we did, they didn't even have a kerrigan or odin and we still lost. I even used zeratul before the 40 mark and got 2 pylons down so i mean whats up?
If anyone cares to shed some insight id be very grateful.
Thanks
Element
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@Element -- part of the point of sudden death is that it is just that. The game has to end at some point, so you better start preparing for sudden death when it comes. Some units are definately better than others when sudden death hits (cough, carriers/ht/immortal, cough) which is not very fair, but the game has to end at some point. That said, I think I have not one but two replays somewhere of games going longer than an hour which is 20+ minutes into overtime. There was quite a bit of hero micro for a long time there.
Anyway, as for why the other team might beat your exact same units? It's the upgrade war, better have maxed your top units by the time sudden death rolls around.
Also, see my post above about midding. This is extremely powerful tool to use in a sudden death scenario as well (though it is designed to end the game way before that is even a thought). If the other team is ending out larger waves that can withstand two of your smaller waves on each lane you are just screwed.
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You know, I'm rather conflicted on the "Middling" strategy. Frankly, I'm typically more annoyed than anything when one of my teammates do it and can be relatively content when my opponents do it.
Middling seems to be much stronger against teams without coordination or any particular abundance of skill and/or familiarity with Nexus Wars. They simply lack the experience to handle a 3 man push on one lane. Middling simply has a huge number of weaknesses that an intelligent player can exploit.
1) With middling, your unit composition is a tad more limited both early and late game. Early because middling is awful without syncing and a "blob" effect of all your units hitting the enemy force at the same time. This is difficult to achieve without using the same units (Which is why Roach and Marauder Middling seems to be the two biggest norms). Late game simply because the strongest Land units are 2 square movers and you lack space.
This lack of composition forces your teammates to fix any problems that might arise. Middlers often rely on teammates to handle Air units, stealth units, long range units and simply counters to whatever they're middling with. Middlers simply -cannot- build the proper counter to both lanes (Unless, again, the opposing team is simply not very good.) which means some of their teammates are actually doing all the work for the team.
Ex. In a recent game, a teammate of mine middled roaches. He did it well, as this strategy goes, but my lane was running plenty of Immortals relatively early to handle my Stalkers (And by extension his Roaches). So I tech'd away from Heavy Armor (Templars, for the record) but the Middler obviously couldn't/didn't. Just like that, it was like I was having to 1v2 my lane because his surges of Roaches simply disappeared when they hit the line of mainly Protoss Immortal/stalker. He spent more and more time going to the other lane until is was basically a 3v1 setup. Harsh for me to play like that and we would have almost certainly lost if I hadn't been as strong a Nexus Wars player as I was (Not really bragging. I simply know how the game works.) You could argue I simply shouldn't have went Stalkers early on, but then is his strategy actually good or is it only good because I allow it to be by understanding what he's going for? That mindset is fine for teams, but it's not so good at random team set ups.
2) Middling also forces one of your lanes to be weaker. The moment you rally your units to the 2 man lane, you've weakened the one man lane for the opponent. This means it will typically get pushed over and over throughout the game. And no matter what you do, you can't make that weak lane strong again. It'll never be stronger than a typical 2 man lane. And will normally be weaker even when you're sending units there because the enemy is already balled up and pushing for your base. Middling puts a ton of pressure on the solo player to handle superior forces (And, often times, you're doing this to him without asking or communication. You're forcing a stranger to do something they didn't sign up to do, so to speak.)
I'm sorry. The strategy is sound for having fun and winning games. But I typically beat middlers with straight up 2 and 2 lane pushes. This is especially true if I have a teammate and we're on the weak lane.
A side note, though. Or I should say a clarification: Solo middling is generally bad and will only let you beat teams (in general) that you'd have beaten by classic play. And may even occasionally cost you games to decent players you might have otherwise won. But, and this is a huge but, a full team playing with the idea of two players middling is incredibly powerful. You gain the teamwork the strategy needs to succeed and you completely fix every problem with middling. (It's actually completely overpowered as the only counter to it is to be doing it yourself. You rarely see this, but when it happens it's frustrating.)
(PS: Your note about cannons on the weak lane is almost certainly not true. I can't even imagine solo middling without using cannons on the weaker lane. Someone is going to have to cannon the weak lane unless your opponents are just really, really, really bad. I typically go so far as to ask Middlers on my team to cannon the weak lane. They chose the strategy, they should really be the ones trying to help the weak lane player, not getting upset when the solo player gets crushed as they so often do.)
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i've found some pretty decent timings.
i open 3 marine. hellion. marauder. tank. banpei. banpei upgrade. then 3 thor. banpei upgrade. BC(or thor depending on their composition. this point on i'm almost ALWAYS at a huge income lead. i tend to max out thor/BC before getting the last banpei upgrade. seems the most efficient. i like my end game army to be a 50/50 thor/bc pure army. obviously castering to either thor or bcs depending on opponent composition. after maxxed 90/90. grab the last banpei upgrade. then i prefer to go for max upgrades over kerrigan. kerrigan first at this point might actually be a better fit. not sure. still tinkering with it.
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On February 10 2011 19:33 VashTS wrote:
Seems like when it gets to late-game, Thor/Science Vessel is pretty dominant. Though, maybe I just got Immortals too late.
Edit:
Errr, sorry for the pseudo-necropost.
i find units like medivacs and science vessels to actually be better early on. as they heal pretty slow. late game most units get gibbed reeeeeally quickly. even if a science vessel or medivac is on it.
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your Country52797 Posts
Edit: I know nothing about nexus wars, why am I here?
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On October 11 2011 07:26 Far.771 wrote:
i've found some pretty decent timings.
i open 3 marine. hellion. marauder. tank. banpei. banpei upgrade. then 3 thor. banpei upgrade. BC(or thor depending on their composition. this point on i'm almost ALWAYS at a huge income lead. i tend to max out thor/BC before getting the last banpei upgrade. seems the most efficient. i like my end game army to be a 50/50 thor/bc pure army. obviously castering to either thor or bcs depending on opponent composition. after maxxed 90/90. grab the last banpei upgrade. then i prefer to go for max upgrades over kerrigan. kerrigan first at this point might actually be a better fit. not sure. still tinkering with it.
I'd say Kerry first. One game, I had 6 of them... Over an hour long game. Lol
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To be upfront, I agree with the logic of hypertonichydroponic of middling, some of the finer aspects of unit composition I don't think are optimal. I play mostly random games.
I read your post Banaritaz, and do not agree with your conclusions, and think your perspective is a result of lack of experience and understanding of Nexus War games.
On October 06 2011 17:40 Banaritaz wrote:
You know, I'm rather conflicted on the "Middling" strategy. Frankly, I'm typically more annoyed than anything when one of my teammates do it and can be relatively content when my opponents do it.
Middling seems to be much stronger against teams without coordination or any particular abundance of skill and/or familiarity with Nexus Wars. They simply lack the experience to handle a 3 man push on one lane. Middling simply has a huge number of weaknesses that an intelligent player can exploit.
First, lolll, what are you trying to say because your first sentence, second paragraph, doesn't say anything. You can insert any strategy or game plan in for middling in the second paragraph and it will hold true. And that you think the only point of middling is a 3 man push really shows the lack of your understanding of the game.
1) With middling, your unit composition is a tad more limited both early and late game. Early because middling is awful without syncing and a "blob" effect of all your units hitting the enemy force at the same time. This is difficult to achieve without using the same units (Which is why Roach and Marauder Middling seems to be the two biggest norms). Late game simply because the strongest Land units are 2 square movers and you lack space.
This lack of composition forces your teammates to fix any problems that might arise. Middlers often rely on teammates to handle Air units, stealth units, long range units and simply counters to whatever they're middling with. Middlers simply -cannot- build the proper counter to both lanes (Unless, again, the opposing team is simply not very good.) which means some of their teammates are actually doing all the work for the team.
Ex. In a recent game, a teammate of mine middled roaches. He did it well, as this strategy goes, but my lane was running plenty of Immortals relatively early to handle my Stalkers (And by extension his Roaches). So I tech'd away from Heavy Armor (Templars, for the record) but the Middler obviously couldn't/didn't. Just like that, it was like I was having to 1v2 my lane because his surges of Roaches simply disappeared when they hit the line of mainly Protoss Immortal/stalker. He spent more and more time going to the other lane until is was basically a 3v1 setup. Harsh for me to play like that and we would have almost certainly lost if I hadn't been as strong a Nexus Wars player as I was (Not really bragging. I simply know how the game works.) You could argue I simply shouldn't have went Stalkers early on, but then is his strategy actually good or is it only good because I allow it to be by understanding what he's going for? That mindset is fine for teams, but it's not so good at random team set ups.
This is your first claim of I suppose two claims (amid, lol, a "huge number") that middling is weak. I will not discuss your example as it is not about the strategy of middling but about you and your teammate's choice of unit composition, and that later on he was just bad middler.
Lack of unit composition:
I do not see why the unit composition is more limited if you're middling than if you're not. Disregarding specific strategies, middling players and "classic" players can build the same units. You state that middlers must mass a single unit to be effective, and that's not true. By that logic, every player, even "classic" players should be massing a single unit, or units with the same build time, because that is most effective in creating a "blob". Middling units are much stronger when they can be synced to come out at the same time (including units of different build times), but they are still effective even if two different types of units (roach and hydra for ex.) come out at different times. Why? Because when the opposing team pushes your lane to your side, their push is weak because they have been pushing fast against a single player. Their "blob" as you call it, is weaker than if they were pushing against "classic" players. The middling player switching to the 1v2 lane should be able to overcome the small push they started. It should work because they should be close to your ramp, or even past the first ramp, and weak side now has a 2v2 lane with much faster reinforcements, if you are the solo player and an experienced player, then that should be enough to push back.
Middlers can build other units, why you and I see a majority of them mass roach or marauder or something else is completely personal preference of the player. I think they simply mistake lopsided wins against bad players as evidence that their unit composition is good (and normally their syncing and building placement efficiency is also bad). As you should know, flexibility is key to getting advantages early game, and that applies to middlers as well.
Finally to go with flexibility, in a random game where 1 player middles, that player should be countering what's on the solo side, not the strong side, even as they are sending units to the strong side. Early game strong lane pushes should be fast and brutal, but it cannot be at the sake of losing the weak lane, or forcing a premature, defensive cannon.
2) Middling also forces one of your lanes to be weaker. The moment you rally your units to the 2 man lane, you've weakened the one man lane for the opponent. This means it will typically get pushed over and over throughout the game. And no matter what you do, you can't make that weak lane strong again. It'll never be stronger than a typical 2 man lane. And will normally be weaker even when you're sending units there because the enemy is already balled up and pushing for your base. Middling puts a ton of pressure on the solo player to handle superior forces (And, often times, you're doing this to him without asking or communication. You're forcing a stranger to do something they didn't sign up to do, so to speak.)
This second claim is where you have mistaken the side effect of middling as the purpose and completely missed why it is the best strategy to win in a random game. The point is not to make the strong lane unbelievably overwhelming (although it can be effective and works against bad teams); the point of middling is to start pushes on your weak lane, although it should be called your original lane but I will call it the weak lane for clarity, and to dissipate opposing pushes without nukes and minimal cannon support. To think of it in another way, when the opposing side starts to push from their side and getting to make a "blob", wouldn't it be nice if that you could fight those units pre-blob on your side of the map. That is the secret to middling. Allowing the opposing side to push fast and end up on your side with a weak push, then pushing back with your mid units to create a standard, "classic" push on the weak lane.
I'm sorry. The strategy is sound for having fun and winning games. But I typically beat middlers with straight up 2 and 2 lane pushes. This is especially true if I have a teammate and we're on the weak lane.
This is the beginning of where it becomes apparent you're mixing your personal feelings and disguising them as an objective analysis. I do not know why you are sorry, and I do not know why you state the strategy is sound for "winning games" when you try your hardest to use selective examples and bad middlers to support a personal argument.
A side note, though. Or I should say a clarification: Solo middling is generally bad and will only let you beat teams (in general) that you'd have beaten by classic play. And may even occasionally cost you games to decent players you might have otherwise won. But, and this is a huge but, a full team playing with the idea of two players middling is incredibly powerful. You gain the teamwork the strategy needs to succeed and you completely fix every problem with middling. (It's actually completely overpowered as the only counter to it is to be doing it yourself. You rarely see this, but when it happens it's frustrating.)
And this is just laughable in the context of your post. You spend the whole time damning a strategy in one version but state that in a different version (2 players) that it is "completely overpowered". Whether one player does it or four players do it, it is still the same strategy, the exact same core principles guide successful middlers in all versions. It's just too outrageous and humorous to see you spend your whole post providing "objective" arguments to a strategy, and then acquiesce to it in your final paragraph. Your ignorance of your lack of understanding of the game and misplaced faith in your arrogance at your perceived skill level is what compelled me to write this post. And for the record, four middling is obviously the best, not two and one on each side. Lol, just think about it, if two is good, why isn't four better.
(PS: Your note about cannons on the weak lane is almost certainly not true. I can't even imagine solo middling without using cannons on the weaker lane. Someone is going to have to cannon the weak lane unless your opponents are just really, really, really bad. I typically go so far as to ask Middlers on my team to cannon the weak lane. They chose the strategy, they should really be the ones trying to help the weak lane player, not getting upset when the solo player gets crushed as they so often do.)
It is most definitely true. A successful middler will rarely need cannons on the weak side, even in random games. There is no necessary criteria of really, really, really bad players needed, the criteria is how good is your middler.
Middling gives more control of the flow of the game to a single player, and as long as that player is good, middling is the best strategy. Educate yourself, lol.
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I didn't realize I had a reply for this long -- apologies for the semi-necro.
On October 06 2011 17:40 Banaritaz wrote:
You know, I'm rather conflicted on the "Middling" strategy. Frankly, I'm typically more annoyed than anything when one of my teammates do it and can be relatively content when my opponents do it.
Middling seems to be much stronger against teams without coordination or any particular abundance of skill and/or familiarity with Nexus Wars. They simply lack the experience to handle a 3 man push on one lane. Middling simply has a huge number of weaknesses that an intelligent player can exploit.
1) With middling, your unit composition is a tad more limited both early and late game. Early because middling is awful without syncing and a "blob" effect of all your units hitting the enemy force at the same time. This is difficult to achieve without using the same units (Which is why Roach and Marauder Middling seems to be the two biggest norms). Late game simply because the strongest Land units are 2 square movers and you lack space.
This lack of composition forces your teammates to fix any problems that might arise. Middlers often rely on teammates to handle Air units, stealth units, long range units and simply counters to whatever they're middling with. Middlers simply -cannot- build the proper counter to both lanes (Unless, again, the opposing team is simply not very good.) which means some of their teammates are actually doing all the work for the team.
Ex. In a recent game, a teammate of mine middled roaches. He did it well, as this strategy goes, but my lane was running plenty of Immortals relatively early to handle my Stalkers (And by extension his Roaches). So I tech'd away from Heavy Armor (Templars, for the record) but the Middler obviously couldn't/didn't. Just like that, it was like I was having to 1v2 my lane because his surges of Roaches simply disappeared when they hit the line of mainly Protoss Immortal/stalker. He spent more and more time going to the other lane until is was basically a 3v1 setup. Harsh for me to play like that and we would have almost certainly lost if I hadn't been as strong a Nexus Wars player as I was (Not really bragging. I simply know how the game works.) You could argue I simply shouldn't have went Stalkers early on, but then is his strategy actually good or is it only good because I allow it to be by understanding what he's going for? That mindset is fine for teams, but it's not so good at random team set ups.
2) Middling also forces one of your lanes to be weaker. The moment you rally your units to the 2 man lane, you've weakened the one man lane for the opponent. This means it will typically get pushed over and over throughout the game. And no matter what you do, you can't make that weak lane strong again. It'll never be stronger than a typical 2 man lane. And will normally be weaker even when you're sending units there because the enemy is already balled up and pushing for your base. Middling puts a ton of pressure on the solo player to handle superior forces (And, often times, you're doing this to him without asking or communication. You're forcing a stranger to do something they didn't sign up to do, so to speak.)
I'm sorry. The strategy is sound for having fun and winning games. But I typically beat middlers with straight up 2 and 2 lane pushes. This is especially true if I have a teammate and we're on the weak lane.
A side note, though. Or I should say a clarification: Solo middling is generally bad and will only let you beat teams (in general) that you'd have beaten by classic play. And may even occasionally cost you games to decent players you might have otherwise won. But, and this is a huge but, a full team playing with the idea of two players middling is incredibly powerful. You gain the teamwork the strategy needs to succeed and you completely fix every problem with middling. (It's actually completely overpowered as the only counter to it is to be doing it yourself. You rarely see this, but when it happens it's frustrating.)
(PS: Your note about cannons on the weak lane is almost certainly not true. I can't even imagine solo middling without using cannons on the weaker lane. Someone is going to have to cannon the weak lane unless your opponents are just really, really, really bad. I typically go so far as to ask Middlers on my team to cannon the weak lane. They chose the strategy, they should really be the ones trying to help the weak lane player, not getting upset when the solo player gets crushed as they so often do.)
First of all I find it funny that your reaction to the strategy is that you are annoyed. From the sound of it you are either being partnered with midders who are rude or ineffective, which may be annoying, but should not be the the driving force behind your arguments. You need to argue from critical thought, not emotion.
Please do not misunderstand me: I appreciate the fact that you put a lot of time into responding to my post in an attempt to bring counterpoint to my arguments in favor of "midding"; however, the arguments you bring to the table are ineffectual in that almost none of them are actually arguments against the strategy of midding, but rather are arguments about how to mid effectively.
Now, I'm going to start a little backwards here and address this first:
A side note, though. Or I should say a clarification: Solo middling is generally bad and will only let you beat teams (in general) that you'd have beaten by classic play. And may even occasionally cost you games to decent players you might have otherwise won. But, and this is a huge but, a full team playing with the idea of two players middling is incredibly powerful. You gain the teamwork the strategy needs to succeed and you completely fix every problem with middling. (It's actually completely overpowered as the only counter to it is to be doing it yourself. You rarely see this, but when it happens it's frustrating.)
So you are against the strategy if done by only one person but agree it is viable if done by two or more people. Fair enough, now we have a foundation from which we can start the discussion. I agree that midding is much more effective when done as a team, whether with two, three, or four people (and I think it is stronger as you add more people to it). However, I disagree that a solo midder is ineffective per se (although I agree that a solo midder could obviously 'F' it up).
I think that to get to the heart of the matter though, I am going to have to establish better the principles behind why I think midding works. I think you might understand this to a degree, but your objections combined with your disclaimer about midding working for a team says to me that you do not quite fully understand how it works.
Obviously, with a team you will always have one overpowered lane and one underpowered lane (against a standard 2-up 2-down team). In this scenario, you are betting that your overpowered lane can do its damage (push to the end, force/kill canons, force nuke) before needing to switch to help the underpowered lane to turn it around. I think this is the understanding that you have with the strategy. What you do not seem to understand is how midding solo could be effective since when switching back to the weak side you are not creating an overpowering force (3v2 or 4v2) to overcome the ball that is heading toward you.
So, how does midding as a concept work? It works on two main principles really: abusing defenders advantage and creating an economic lead. As a team, you also add the potential for the shear overpowering of your opponent, but this is *not* the core reason of how the strategy works.
So how does this abuse defenders advantage? Well, for my illustration we are going to make everyone a roacher. Roaches, roaches, and more roaches; for all eight players; as soon as possible. So everyone makes their lings, and everyone makes their first roach. One team has a solo midder and one team is standard 2-up 2-down. For the sake of argument, we won't even consider the lings and just assume that they all cancel out (generally the lings are not part of the units placed on the mid-line so we can just put them on the weak lane for the example). So why is the 3v2 lane going to reach a critical mass strong enough to force a nuke? Why wont the 2v1 lane do the same? In the first engagement in the middle of the map, the 3v2 side is only 50% as powerful on offense whereas the 2v1 side is 100% weaker. Why should that matter? The 3v2 side is going to win its first engagement more slowly than the 2v1 side, which mean the 2v1 side will actually reach the midder's team's base faster! But this is a good thing. The reason this is a good thing is that the ball will not be very big and is easily handled with the combination of SCV attack and faster reinforcement distance. By the time the first few roaches reach a point where the SCVs can help out on the 2v1 side, the threat can be neutralized before it becomes a problem. This allows all money to be spent on army (and/or econ) as opposed to static defenses which yields no army power or increased economy. But what about the 3v2 side? Why wouldn't this suffer a similar fate to the hands of SCVs? With the 3v2 side only 50% more powerful, the first engagement is going to take longer, and with luck on the '2' side, may even net a kill. This means that the very next engagement may be on equalish footing and will take longer. This delay allows the next wave to catch up to it much sooner and makes the ball much bigger before it can reach a point where SCV attacks can enter the equation. In general, by the time this happens, it is too much for SCVs to make a real impact on the oncoming forces, hence why a canon would be forced. In terms of roaches, economically speaking, this means that the opposing team is now down two roaches. Not only is their total army now weaker, but also their income is also weaker by 6. Furthermore, this whole time, bounty from kills, in general is lopsided in your favor since they are only getting one sure kill on the weak side whereas you are getting at least two on the strong side. Then, even if at this point the midder decides to stop and solely reinforce the weak side for the rest of the game, your team is ahead because of midding. You may not be ahead by much, but as a game of exponential growth, that little seed can become a profound advantage.
This is the reason why midding works as a strategy. This is the point you must contend with when arguing against the strategy. Unit composition will always be an issue. Good/bad players on either team will always be an issue. Playing well as a team, communication, coordinating your units with those of others... you will always have to do these things, none of these are issues that are the sole problem of midding. Does midding exaggerate the effect or require more emphasis on addressing these issues? Perhaps. But that does not speak to whether the strategy itself is sound or flawed. To draw an analogy from the standard multiplayer game, midding is an attempt to "macro better", if you are going to say that the strategy does not work you are going to have to prove that it will not allow you to macro better.
And just to keep going with the example, lest you think that the advantage that can be gotten from midding ends there. Let's say that the money for the canon was pooled from the two players on the strong side and that the two players from the weak side have been building roaches at a constant rate and are not themselves affected economically. How does this yield a further economic advantage when the midder switches back to the weak side? Wouldn't this just make that side a draw? Well yes and no. Let's say that the weak side has been taking pressure but with SCV attack and repair they have been holding without any danger of losing a building. Now the midder switches to the weak lane. So now you have an even number of roaches to an even number of roaches, but you now have the defender's advantage working in your favor, plus SCV attack to help out. What usually happens when an evenly matched army nukes? Defender's advantage kicks in and the army begins to ball up in the opposite direction. So since the SCV's have been working your weak lane to essentially the point where it is always nuked, you will start to gain the momentum on the weak lane, *even though* you are at an equal army strength technically. And what happens as this momentum reaches the other side? That's right, more canons, and possibly a(nother) nuke. More economic damage.
While this is happening, the same has been occuring on the other lane. However, that lane is economically behind by two roaches, remember? So army wise, even though they have been balling up and winning due to their defenders advantage (and perhaps the canon if it was not killed), technically, they still have a weaker army, so their push is just slightly slower. By the time they make it to the midder's team's base, the weak side should also have made it to the other base. So even if they trade nukes/canons, the midder's team is still ahead by those two roaches (exponentially). However, this is where midding can really shine, if, instead of nuking (or maybe even canoning!) the midder were to switch back to the strong lane just before the oncoming ball hits, the strong lane now has the potential to avoid economic damage whereas the weak lane is still most likely going to cause economic damage.
Now this is where the strategy gets really nifty. Let's just assume that the weak lane does some damage which it most likely will. The cost of the canons needed to defend is going to be pretty steep if a nuke is not used. Whereas at home, with three full armies attacking the ball (which is still exponentially two roaches weaker), the cost to turn around the army in canons is going to be less and will most likely not need a nuke. So now we are back in the position of the early game where the ball coming toward the weak side is going to get there faster than the ball gaining momentum on the strong side. However, because of this the ball on the weak side is going to be smaller (and now has to take into account whatever economic damage it took in canons). So let's say the whole time from the beginning of the push to until the first ramp, the midder adds his army to the strong side and then once the ball hits the ramp the midder switches back to the weak side; what happens then? Well, in doing this, the midder has pretty well ensured that the strong side will do damage once again, and also will potentially stop any economic damage from occuring on the weakside once again. Even though there is a ball this time unlike at the very beginning the ball has not had much time to get very big, only a few waves worth, and it is suffering in strength from however many canons were used in defending worth of roaches (4-6? more?). So even though there is a ball, it is not a full ball, and two full armies worth of units should be enough to minimize or even prevent any economic damage on the weak side.
So now for three whole pushes we have most likely caused economic damage, caused nukes, and avoided economic damage. And it is possible to rinse/repeat this once you get it going. Now once you get to this point can the other team still win with superior unit combinations, team work, and early hero units? Sure. Is it likely? No. Again, this is the point of midding: to macro better. Does the better macro player always win? No. But is he more likely to win? Yes. This is the point of the strategy. This is what you must prove to be false/inaccurate to say that it is not a good strategy.
(A quick side note, not only does midding cause a general economic advantage for a given *team*, *but* it *also* give a particularly nice advantage to the midding *player*. Why is this? Because the midding player is *always* going to be getting kills, because the midding player is *always* going to be on the winning side. So not only is the midder going to be helping to create a situation that makes it easier for the team to win (the economic damage to the other team), the midder is also going to make his army/economy more effective more quickly which can help to deal with opposing tech switches that much more easily. It can also help to get upgrades, econ, heros, faster, each of which help the team in general.)
@kyunghwan -- thanks for having my back, but as you can see it is both the strong push *and* the reversal that I think makes midding effective. Basically, it's having control over the yo-yo in such a way that playing standard does not allow you to have in general. Also I have tweaked my unit compositions slightly and do make changes as needed on the fly if the situation warrants, but I did find those to be generally effective and safe against most builds.
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Mass high templar.
you are going to be breaking even the whole game until the "30 minute" mark, then you have this unstoppable blob of psi storm that kills everything in half a second.
its hilarious.
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On December 07 2011 07:43 Cryosin wrote:
Mass high templar.
you are going to be breaking even the whole game until the "30 minute" mark, then you have this unstoppable blob of psi storm that kills everything in half a second.
its hilarious.
If by the "30 minute" mark you mean the 400% damage, sudden death at the 40 minute mark, yes, psi storm is increadibly strong. However, before sudden death, total psi storm with no other support is not the best idea since each storm does not stack and often times storm will be cast at the same time or on the same group of units, and any of the massive units are going to fair pretty well against them (until sudden death). But as you have to make it to sudden death for mass high templar to be effective, you will want to strategy that will keep you alive until then. Midding can do that, if not even avoid the need for sudden death strats to be an issue.
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The Ultimate Nexus Wars BUILD
This is a Terran build, because I find that Terran are very op atm. This build is currently unbeatable.
This is how I execute it:
1. Reaper
2. Marine
3. Hellion
4. 2X Siege Tank
5. Pylon
6. Medivac
7. Dingle
8. 2X Viking
9. Pylon Upgrade
10. 3X Siege Tank
11. Pylon Upgrade
12. 4X Thors
13. 2X Siege Tank
14. 2X Viking
15. Pylon Upgrade
16. 4X Battlecruiser
17. 2X Viking
18. Build 2 Upgrade buildings
Upgrade from now onward. I always upgrade the plating first, rather than the weapons.
If you know there is a push coming then build 2 Chelupa Canons. NEVER nuke in the early game unless its a 'do or die' situation.
The ONLY way you can loose by doing this build is if you have NOOB team mates or you get cheesed.
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Does any1 even talk about 1v1 in Nexus Wars? I think its great, and this build order works fine for me.
Note: If you see in the income tab that he does not build pylons but that he builds agressive buildings, go ahead and place one cannon, if the agression increases alot, upgrade your cannon instead of building more of them, chrono boost if needed.
Building, Income,
Pylon - 26
Pylon - 42
Pylon Upgrade - 74
Pylon - 90
Pylon Upgrade - 122
Pylon - 138
Pylon Upgrade - 170
Pylon Upgrade2 - 234
Pylon Upgrade2 - 298
Then after that you have alot of income to do powerful endgame units right away, this will easily break any cannon in a matter of a few minutes and it forces the other player to start playing and not keep upgrading.
There is some special boxing tricks that i might show later.
Im not the best at 1v1 tho, ive only played 20 games, i have 15 wins and 5 losses so far.
On February 11 2011 23:49 DoomGuy wrote:
> Nexus Wars
> Strategy
I whould really like to see you beat me 1v1, you got my tactic right here, but that dosent matter does it?
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OMG a Nexus Wars TL Thread :D
Man I play NW a lot, especially during ladder breaks and it's addictive as hell. Glad to see some discussion here.
Right now I am trying some rushes, especially 30 sec units rush, like this:
Zealot
Zergling
Roach
Sentry
Roach
Sentry
Hydra x5
Stalker.
Very strong, especially if you are synced with your teammate.
BTW, NW community is growing a lot. There are some clans dedicated exclusively to NW. Arcade is in good health I guess.
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What's the unit that can do a gigantic storm. I think it's the twilight archon, but I can't seem to get that unit. I make regular archon and then I click the twilight archon but then nothing happens.
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EPT![[image loading]](http://img580.imageshack.us/img580/6015/howtowin.jpg)
