Congratulations on moving on to the finals! Thanks a lot, but wait with your congrats for the hopeful victory in the finals
How did you think the series went? What were your thoughts when Nony left game 3? How were you feeling? I though "ufff...". The games were not as easy as the score could show. And of course I realized that 2000$ are already in my pocket with chances for 3000$ more.
What did you think of Nony in general? I was pretty dissapointed about his behaviour. He didn't say “gg” even once.
What did you think of Nony's play? He seems to be good in the early stage of the game. His builds were very solid, well practised and pretty hard to stop considering the fact that I wanted to play safe. I think the macro is one of my good features so I was expecting to be on a favoured position in the long term games.
Game 1 you were forced to cancel your Nexus, were you worried at all? I knew that he couldn't make these 2 reavers that fast without stoping probe production so in consequence his economy was still lower than mine. If I remember correctly at the moment when I canceled it my limit was still 20 higher than NonY's. I knew that the situation is pretty bad but I've remembered from the past even worse situations when I still managed to win so I didn't give up.
In Game 1 you managed to kill 3 shuttles with a total of 5 of Nony's reavers in them. Do you think this was luck, skill, or both? I don't really think that it was luck. I don't remember now how did it exactly look but in PvP I always try to see where the opponent’s shutle is with my observers and find the right moment when he doesn't expect me to bring it down. Another thing is that NonY decided to harass me in the wrong time when I was prepared to defend it. To make the best possible damage you should do it while you force your opponent to pay attention on the another side of the map.
In Game 2 you were also somewhat behind, you had to pull probes to kill his dragoons. Did you think of quitting at that point? The situation looked bad again but I had 3 gateways with finishing dragoons and reaver was going out from the robotics as well. Good probe/scv defense is always good against dragoons and sometimes if your opponent concentrate too much on another point of the map it may cost him the game, like in NonY's case.
In Game 2 when did you know you were ahead? When did you know you had won the game? After I killed his second expansion.
In Games 1 and 2 you played more of a passive style. Was this a choice? Why did you play this way? As I said before I knew that NonY's builds were good at the beginning but because of that his economy was weaker. Also my makro was probably better than his so with every single minute my chances to win the game were getting higher.
In Game 3 you both had a large army but you stormed better, even using some templar to suicide and storm Nony's army. Did you learn this in Korea? That's a common thing in PvP even outside of Korea. Maybe I learned how to do it better. I don't really know, because I've learned so many things there.
In all three games you managed the late game and big armies much better than your opponents. Why do you think this is? Because of my experience, game knowledge and army managment.
Many people were predicting Nony to win, but you advanced 3-0. Was it difficult? Even though it was 3-0 the games were not that easy.
You are the center of some controversy on the forums. Many fans feel you are disrespecting your opponents by saying you do not practice. Do you respect Nony, White-Ra, and Strelok? Of course I do respect them. That’s not my fault that you ask me about such a things in the interviews – I simply answer for the questions. I don’t see any point in lying anyone to show some pseudo “manner”. In my opinnion it has nothing to do with my attitude towards my opponents and with the real manner.
Can you tell us a little about your reasons for not practicing as hard as the others? You seem to want everyone to know that you do not practice with an ID like Retired_Draco. Why did you choose this id? I decided to make this id before the RO32 and before all these controversy going on the forums. If I would have to make my ID again I would surely not choose it. I didn’t think about that much, I simply thought that it would look funny but seems like it didn’t work out this way. I don’t find time for practice because I’m busy with my university duties and I try to spend the rest of time with my girlfriend.
Who do you think your greatest competitor in this tournament could have been (assuming anyone could make the finals). Who would you rather not face in the finals? I’m not sure but probably Dreiven. Sometimes he has really good days when he plays very well but sometimes he sucks like it was in a match against Brat_OK. Moreover I really don’t like PvP so that’s a next reason to not be willing to play against him.
How do you think the level of foreign Starcraft has changed from when you were active until now? Why do you think you can beat players who consistently practice more than you? Do you think your time in Korea was really that valuable? Or maybe do you think your opponents are playing badly under pressure? The level rised up a little bit. Foreigners started to pay more attention to proleagues so they watch more progamer’s games and learn from them. For example when I became a progamer the most common builds outside of Korea in PvZ were 1 gate tech or 2 gate zealot rush. Nowadays almost none plays it because people understood that double nexus is so much better.
Your finals opponent is Excello.IefNaij, what do you think of him? Even though JianFei is a good friend of mine I was hoping for PvT final. I think that he’s a little bit underrated and is for sure a very dangerous opponent.
Are you going to find time to practice this week? I’d better make no comments here, for my own good.
What are you going to do with your prize money ($2000 for 2nd, $5000 for first)? I’m gonna buy few gifts for my girlfriend, the rest is going to be transfered to my bank account.
PvP is known as a very volatile matchup, where it can be hard to come back if you use the wrong opening. How will you overcome this? I can’t agree with that statement. In PvP you can make a come back in so many ways if you manage to kill opponent’s probes with some reaver or templair drops. In my opinnion the most variable match ups are PvP and ZvZ.
What is your prediction for a score in the finals? I don’t make any predictions.
Brat_OK will now play Nony for third place. Who do you think will take that match? Who are you cheering for? I probably cheer for Brat_OK because Nony seemed to be a little bit rude in our match.
Have you been watching the coverage of the TSL? What do you think of it? I’ve seen the match between Dreiven and Brat_OK and I have to say that it has a specific style and atmoshpere. Made with balls.
Any thoughts for improving season 2's coverage or tournament format? I have no more wishes than simply seeing the second season.
Any last words to your old and new fans? No matter how the final will finish I hope I will bring you some nice games to watch. Enjoy~
Congratulations on reaching the finals of the Razer TSL! How do you feel? Good, very good! I knew it was going to be a tough series but I managed to pull through.
Overall, how well do you think you played in the semifinals? I think I played well in most of the games but made some minor mistakes in some games. But most importantly, I gave all that I had.
How do you think your opponent, Brat_OK, played? I knew he was a strong player from his games vs Dreiven. He displayed his skills in this series as well. I was not surprised when he rolled over me in game 2/4.
Did you tailor any builds specific to Brat_OK, or did you just play your own style? I just played how I normally play. I do not want to use specific builds against a player's "style" because he can easily change it and screw me over.
Game 1 took place on Wuthering Heights. How do you feel about this map for PvT? Many people can argue that PvT greatly favours toss, but in my opinion, it's even harder for the toss. Even in my practice games lose about half of my PvT games on Wuthering Heights, so I would definitely not say that Wuthering H. favoured me.
In game one you encountered Brat_OK's wallin and pressured hard with ranged Dragoons. Do you find a ranged Dragoon opening strong on Wuthering Heights, or did you do this because of his wallin? I do ranged goons on every map, regardless of a wall in or not. The fact that the Terran walls in can mean many things, 2fact, fast dropship, fast expo etc.. A terran walling in will not affect how I open. I think 2g goon rush is very effective against all terran BO's, so I chose this for all the games on wuthering.
The critical time of the game came when Brat_OK pushed to the high ground and moved toward 12 oclock. What made you decide to counter rather than defend? I knew defending would put me in a worse position since he had the upper grounds. I knew if I countered he would have two choices, 1 - counter my base while I rape his base or 2 - go save his main and let my expo live. Both would've benefited me.
Were you worried when Brat_OK returned to defend the attack in his main? Did you know you were ahead at that point? Not really, as I've said earlier, if he went to save his base, it means that my expo would live. I don't know if I was ahead, but if you can make a Terran move his army back and forth all game, you're doing the right thing, unless you're suiciding your entire army.
Did winning game 1 calm your nerves? A little, I wasn't nervous to begin with. ^^
Game 2 was on Blue Storm. How do you feel about PvT on Blue Storm? I feel PvT is tough on Blue Storm, hence me thumbing down Blue Storm as the 5th map. It gets extremely difficult when the terran camps and slowly pushes through the middle of the map. I think I should've gotten arbiters MUCH quicker or go fast carriers off 3-4 bases if I wanted a chance. BRAT played really well on this map and steam rolled me.
Why did you decide to try a proxy Robotic Facility? I was trying to surprise him, but I guess it did not work.
You used your Shuttle much litke Mutalisks; keeping Brat in his main. Is this typical of your style? If a terran is cheap and refuses to build turrets and goliaths, I will definitely rub it in and punish him. It's not acceptable.
What made you move into Brat's main when you lost the Shuttle? Well I couldn't go south because his goliaths were there. I had a choice between going west or north, and I was sure he had turrets in the west, so my only choice was to go up ^^
BRAT_OK also did some Dropship harass from 6 oclock. Have you played against this style much? I see 1-2 dropship drops around expos quite often, but rarely do I see someone that puts tanks above the ledges and mass dropping on the lower ground at the same time, kinda reminds me of the old school Lost Temple 6v9. His strat definitely caught me off guard and I paid a great price, losing a large army and a bunch of gateways. I see 1-2 dropship aggressive style quite often**
Did losing game 2 affect your nerves or your build order going into game 3 on Othello? Nah, losing on game 2 didn't have any affect on game 3. New map, new bo, new chance. I try to forget my losses and focus on the present
Game 3 was on Othello. Drops seem to be good on this map, so do you feel this map suits your style? I tend to adapt to how my opponent plays. My style usually depends on my opponent's style, so I wouldn't say it suited 'my style'. If he went mass dropships, then I would mass shuttles or something to counter it, it all depends.
Brat_OK decided to open with a two Factory build on Othello, and you actually sent the Reaver to his main rather than using it on defense. You were confident you could hold your ramp against his units? I felt that to prevent a terran containment, the best way to fight it is to cut off his reinforcements. If I was able to kill his reinforcements or keep his units in his base, I knew my rallies would be able to break the containment. And that's exactly what happened.
When did you decide to press out of your natural? when I saw that he had about 5 vults and 1 tank in his main, I knew I cut off enough reinforcements, thus going out and securing my natural.
Moving on to game 4, there was some discussion about whether Zodiac is a Terran or Protoss map. What are you thoughts? I think Terrans have a slight advantage over protoss simply because of the structural components of the map. The 4 high grounds surrounding the center of the map gives terrans a very nice support when pushing. It gets even more frightening for protosses when the terran is past 150 supply because mass tanks + high grounds = melting toss army.
What made you open up with a daring 12 Nexus? Again, I wanted to surprise him and hopefully it'll tip him off his toes, but it seems he was prepared and played flawlessly.
Do you think his response of Mines and a quicker third base was correct? Yes, the mines denied my scouting which was exactly what he wanted.
Brat_OK landed his Barracks on your island to prevent an island expansion. How big of a deal was this: Did it distrupt your play or hardly affect you? Would the outcome of the game possibly changed had that Barracks not landed? I think the landed barrack on the island definitely affected my game. I was not able to get my 3rd expo up as fast as I wanted and he did a well job adapting to my 13nexus. If anything, I would say the landed barracks lost me the game.
Your 12 Nexus went up without problems but you eventually lost. How did Brat_OK get the advantage back? As I said for the question above, the landed barrack really tipped me off. I was confused as to where to expo next and he played extremely well and did the right moves to counter the 13 nexus build.
You missed your first chance closing the series by losing game 4. Did this affect your play or mindset going into game 5? I thought I was going to win when I was up 2-1 and zodiac being the next map. Losing game 4 definitely taught me to never underestimate my opponent and what my opponent is able to do, even if it's my favourite map.
You've said you didn't feel nervous during the series. Game 5 was the first time you could be eliminated. With a potential difference of $4,500 between first and fourth, did you feel any pressure starting this game up? I try ignoring the fact that there's a large sum of money on the line. I just try to play my best. Of course there is pressure, but the more pressure there is, the more focused I am.
Game 5 was also the first repeat map in the series. Having previously played Wuthering Heights did you fear that Brat_OK would respond to your build in game 1? My build on Wuthering Heights is relatively safe versus a large variety of terran BOs, so I felt it was the best BO to use. I really didn't think he was going to use such a risky BO for the last match of the series, I felt he would go FD build and play a long macro war.
BRAT_OK did a similar wall-in on cross positions, but opted for a two-Factory. When you did you first release the Joyo rush was coming. I noticed the rush when his tanks came out to kill my probe. He had about 5 marines and 3 tanks. A terran that fast expands never moves their tanks out of their choke in fear of being broken, thus I knew he was going to do some nasty rush.
The rush balanced on a razer's edge, but you managed to push Brat_OK back and sucessfully defend the rush. How did you do this and what was going through your mind during the rush? I actually thought I was going to lose at that point. I was left to about 12-15 probes and he kept the pressure on for so long The match was too important for me to give up so lightly, so I was determined to play until I had absolutely no chance. Luckily he stopped building scvs when he came to rush me, so I wasn't too far behind when the rush was destroyed.
Did you realize how far ahead you were once the rush was repulsed? No, I thought I was actually very far behind. Seems that I was wrong.
When did you know the game, and the series, was yours? Not until I saw the 'GG'. You never know, he might've been hiding 15 BCs in his base. =_-
How did you train for this series? Who did you practice with? Mostly with friends. I practiced with a large variety of players. But ALOT of thanks to the great Artosis[Media] himself and Excello.Oldy.
You are known mostly as a Zerg killer, how do you rank your matchups? I think my best is pvp/pvz, while my Pvt is a bit weaker.
You're really known as a Shuttle and Reaver master. What makes you favour these units and how do you control them so well? I just use them very often, and cannot play without them
What were your first thoughts after Brat_OK typed GG? :D :D
You are going up against Draco, the ex-pro. Any thoughts about him? I know he's a excellent player and arguably the most experienced player in the foreign scene, it will be a tough fight.
Have you seen Draco's games in the previous TSL rounds? I've seen a few.
Draco says he only plays a single game against the computer to practice. How do you feel about this? Not that surprising. If I remember correctly, when we met at PGL, Draco just came back from a long sc break, and he still managed to win that PGL Season. He's full of surprises and I do believe his words.
PvP is known as a very volatile matchup, where it can be hard to come back if you use the wrong opening. How will you overcome this? I don't know, we will see what happens
Brat_OK will now play Nony for third place. Who do you think will take that match? I think NonY should be able to take it. Maybe 3-2 or 3-1 for NonY.
What will you do with the money if you win the first prize of $5,000? I don't know. My friends will kill me if I don't buy them dinner, so that's a must. =[ I guess I will save the rest.
Have you been watching the coverage of the TSL? Yes, excellent coverage ^^
Any thoughts for improving season 2's coverage or tournament format? I don't know what can be changed, I seriously have no complaints.
You've agree to be a guest on Season Two of Teamliquid Attack. Was that really you against Xiaozi in Season One? NO COMMENT.
Your fanbase has been steadily growing with every victory. Many people on IRC using "Name_OK" instantly switched to writing their ID backwards like you. Any last words to your old and new fans? Hehe, I will do my best to take Razor TSL Champion title. So keep cheering! :D
You are the center of some controversy on the forums. Many fans feel you are disrespecting your opponents by saying you do not practice. Do you respect Nony, White-Ra, and Strelok?
Of course I do respect them. That’s not my fault that you ask me about such a things in the interviews – I simply answer for the questions. I don’t see any point in lying anyone to show some pseudo “manner”. In my opinnion it has nothing to do with my attitude towards my opponents and with the real manner.
Can you tell us a little about your reasons for not practicing as hard as the others? You seem to want everyone to know that you do not practice with an ID like Retired_Draco. Why did you choose this id?
I decided to make this id before the RO32 and before all these controversy going on the forums. If I would have to make my ID again I would surely not choose it. I didn’t think about that much, I simply thought that it would look funny but seems like it didn’t work out this way.
On May 29 2008 01:19 Hot_Bid wrote: [Draco, a]re you going to find time to practice this week? I’d better make no comments here, for my own good.
[IefNaij, y]ou used your Shuttle much like Mutalisks; keeping Brat in his main. Is this typical of your style? If a terran is cheap and refuses to build turrets and goliaths, I will definitely rub it in and punish him. It's not acceptable.
You've agree to be a guest on Season Two of Teamliquid Attack. Was that really you against Xiaozi in Season One? NO COMMENT.
"Have you been watching the coverage of the TSL? What do you think of it? I’ve seen the match between Dreiven and Brat_OK and I have to say that it has a specific style and atmoshpere. Made with balls."
This made me cheer for Draco in the finals. Thanks
Great interviews. Also, glad to hear Draco say what should have been obvious, that he respects people and his nick is funny. It's stupid that he had to say it, but maybe this will finally shut people up. (Not a huge Draco fan or anything. Just tired of people whining about him all the time.)
Woot. Both players deserve it, but I'm voting Draco. Practice time or no practice time, I think the ladder part of the TSL was enough "practice" to get him back into form.
Best interviews I've read so far! Props to whoever made the questions, because I was wondering the answers for many of them as well. I'm glad that Draco matter is finally cleared up, even if it should've been a nonissue in the first place.
On May 29 2008 02:41 Vasoline73 wrote: Woot. Both players deserve it, but I'm voting Draco. Practice time or no practice time, I think the ladder part of the TSL was enough "practice" to get him back into form.
Exactly. For a former progamer, playing SC has got to be like riding a bike. 100+ ladder matches could be enough to get back to the level of being able to defeat other top foreigners. The only thing he might need to practice would be player-specific builds, but instead he is using generic macro-oriented builds that obviously aren't designed to counter a specific player's style, so there isn't much of a need to train for each upcoming match.
Nice interview. As well good selected questions as good answers from the players. I think the point about this Draco controversy was from the begining that it was a bit offensive when you imagine you are in the place of the other participants and are taking everything serious. This liar / none liar discussion sucked from the beginning and leads to nowhere anyway.
With this little bit of more insight there is less area that players feel offended or spectators do not believe. Thanks for this and GL to both players.
On May 29 2008 06:54 likeaboss wrote: nony didnt say gg once? what a whiney little bitch
Again with the e-drama. Honestly, who cares? Since when did it become an obligation to say "good game" to your opponent. What if you're not happy with how the game went--you have to say it anyway? This reminds me of everyone getting upset at Draco for answering honestly about whether he practices--like it would be more manner to lie? If you have to say gg no matter what, then it is nothing more than an empty formality, and that is just a waste of words.
No one has made an "E-drama" out of this, don't be ridiculous. It's a widely accepted standard to say GG when you surrender (actually it is even part of the TSL rules). Not really anything to get pissed about, but I find it noteworthy nonetheless.
Yeah... gg has become sort of a standard practice now - not only do you see it after matches but in many sports and things they will do the same procedure regardless of whether they enjoyed / felt the game was good or not. Therefore (well, I already was anyways) I'm rooting for Brat_OK for 3rd, voting Draco for 1st place just because I feel he has a slight technical advantage but nonetheless, as it was noted several times, PvP is a very back and forth matchup so it can go either way! Good luck JF and Draco, hope to see some entertaining games :D (hopefully build suspense up to 5th game with scored tied at 2-2, that would be really exciting hehe)
well I know it's become standard, but I never liked the idea of having to say something that you don't mean just to be "polite". Then again, what do I know about etiquette--I still put my elbows on the table.
On May 29 2008 08:59 qrs wrote: well I know it's become standard, but I never liked the idea of having to say something that you don't mean just to be "polite". Then again, what do I know about etiquette--I still put my elbows on the table.
You're a bit hypocritic. Don't you ever say "hello", "goodbye", "how are you", "thank you", etc. just because it's the expected behavior, and not because you really mean it?
"gg" is just a matter of showing respect to your opponent, a salute, and thus constitutes a graceful acceptance of defeat, as opposed to hysterically hitting the reset button or alt-f4, which is what leaving without "gg" looks like.
On May 29 2008 08:59 qrs wrote: well I know it's become standard, but I never liked the idea of having to say something that you don't mean just to be "polite". Then again, what do I know about etiquette--I still put my elbows on the table.
You're a bit hypocritic. Don't you ever say "hello", "goodbye", "how are you", "thank you", etc. just because it's the expected behavior, and not because you really mean it?
"gg" is just a matter of showing respect to your opponent, a salute, and thus constitutes a graceful acceptance of defeat, as opposed to hysterically hitting the reset button or alt-f4, which is what leaving without "gg" looks like.
How do you know I'm hypocritic? I think when that when I say these things I usually mean them. But in any case, it's the whole idea of the expected behavior being to say polite things that you don't mean which I don't especially like.
Look, of course I don't have a problem with someone saying "gg" whether he means it or not. Just if someone doesn't, I don't think that that makes him a hysterical whiny bitch.
On May 29 2008 08:59 qrs wrote: well I know it's become standard, but I never liked the idea of having to say something that you don't mean just to be "polite". Then again, what do I know about etiquette--I still put my elbows on the table.
You're a bit hypocritic. Don't you ever say "hello", "goodbye", "how are you", "thank you", etc. just because it's the expected behavior, and not because you really mean it?
"gg" is just a matter of showing respect to your opponent, a salute, and thus constitutes a graceful acceptance of defeat, as opposed to hysterically hitting the reset button or alt-f4, which is what leaving without "gg" looks like.
But in any case, it's the whole idea of the expected behavior being to say polite things that you don't mean which I don't especially like.
You don't like manners? I wonder how you function in society.
Yea the no gg thing confused me as well, not starting any drama but this league is supposed to mimic korean leagues. The rule like carnac or something did state to not talk during games and end it with "gg" ...
GJ everyone for these interviews. It is always nice to have some insight about the games. And both these guys seem to make honest, straightforward answers and I like it. I hate it when guys say "oh, raping that guy was just pure luck. Practising like mad all these years was not a factor. My observers just moved on their own will and happened to scout that hidden expo. Oh yeah, and my finger slipped, so dropping that reaver that killed 50+ probes was a mere accident. See? I really did not deserve to win this." Anyway, GL to both, and please give us insane games. Games MADE WITH BALLS.
iirc nony already stated somewhere that he doesn't automatically say gg , and that it didn't mean disrespect from him.
Btw I love TSL with a bit of drama , I mean korean players are not all good mannered ( hi fbh ) some probably hate others , are pissed when losing. Thank god ours do not act like they were happy all the time , they are not fucking teletubbies they have their own personallity and emotions , and it's pretty cool we can get a bit of it without seeing the players.
I'm pissed of reading everyone jumping about nony , of course he is pissed losing 3-0 when he absolutely didn't deserve that score , and what can he think now reading all those comments after all he did for this site? We are quite lucky to have one of the top foreigners making fpvods, replay packs , giving advice on the strategy forum, taking off his time to watch replays of D players , he could just not care. I doubt other top foreigners are doing the same on other sites.
Draco ftw 4EVER and EVER!!! You deserve this! and i do believe you when you say you had a little training ... 8 months in Korean worth more than any last minute training!
Not saying gg is pretty bm. Saying gg is admitting defeat, and thus that you were outplayed. Not saying gg is refusing to give your opponent the respect he deserves for outplaying you. It implies it wasn't a good game, that it was somehow unfair or that you were unlucky. To me gg represents the concept that there is no luck in Starcraft, that the winner made better strategic decisions and this should be respected by the loser. I've taken this to other games I play too, always ending games of squash with a "good game" and a handshake. The winner played better and the loser should be able to acknowledge this and act respectfully.
This is kind of funny cause all those people in the WCG USA thread were bitching for 40 pages about how you have to stick to the rules no matter how dumb or wrong they are because they're the rules (of course, this was in support of their friends). Nobody is here saying that though.
On May 30 2008 02:55 kiendudu wrote: when I know the game will end soon, and I am the winner, I say "gg", then few seconds later, he quit.
That's actually pretty bm, and I hate when people do that to me.
Actually, I was just playing a pvp for fun on iccup, and after my 2 gate zeal rush failed, my opponent ran in my base with about 6-8 goons and I only had about 2 goons. When his goons got in my base, he said "gg" thinking he won, but luckily I fended it off with some probes and my few goons, and later went on to win the game.
So yea, don't say gg prematurely, even if you're 100% sure you can win, you should wait till the loser admits defeat and says gg first
no matter how bad you played thats like not shaking hands after a tennis match it doesnt matter how weak you played this particular game its just a question of sportmen ship and behaviour
saying gg when you think you're winning is terribly bad mannered
not saying gg when you lose isn't; sometimes you play terribly and don't feel you played a good game, other times the skill levels are so unmatched that a good game couldn't possibly have taken place
On May 30 2008 05:42 stacker wrote: not saying gg when you lose isn't; sometimes you play terribly and don't feel you played a good game, other times the skill levels are so unmatched that a good game couldn't possibly have taken place
Nobody plays everytime his best. Your opponents suffer the same problems. Only replying gg when you are winning and felt like you played good while say nothing when your opponent might had the better hand this time is egocentric. When you feel like you could do better you can keep it by yourself and better luck next time. No need to diminish the fun and preformance of the ones who went out luckier against you this time.
If gg wouldnt be part of the broodwar etiquette I would also more define goodgame like a close and long exciting game and not by who played his best and who not.
I dont make a big deal out of it and respect Nony also cause of the good parts of him like the care for the community with the fpvods, TL Attack and some helpful posts. I just dicuss this gg thing for itself and therefore imo I have to disagree that it isnt bm or kind of professional.
On May 29 2008 20:07 Kwark wrote: Not saying gg is pretty bm. Saying gg is admitting defeat, and thus that you were outplayed. Not saying gg is refusing to give your opponent the respect he deserves for outplaying you. It implies it wasn't a good game, that it was somehow unfair or that you were unlucky. To me gg represents the concept that there is no luck in Starcraft, that the winner made better strategic decisions and this should be respected by the loser. I've taken this to other games I play too, always ending games of squash with a "good game" and a handshake. The winner played better and the loser should be able to acknowledge this and act respectfully.
QFT. I dont think it could have been put better. Not saying gg is disrespectful. I like Nony, but this is making me think twice about him.
Did you tailor any builds specific to Brat_OK, or did you just play your own style? I just played how I normally play. I do not want to use specific builds against a player's "style" because he can easily change it and screw me over.
and
Game 3 was on Othello. Drops seem to be good on this map, so do you feel this map suits your style? I tend to adapt to how my opponent plays. My style usually depends on my opponent's style, so I wouldn't say it suited 'my style'. If he went mass dropships, then I would mass shuttles or something to counter it, it all depends.
I'm sure that there is a distinction I'm missing =)
The first quote refers counting on a specific play of style of your opponent and preparing for it beforehand. The second refers to adapting to an opponent while the game is already running (as the example of mass dropship vs. mass shuttle shows). So the overall picture would be a "normal" style of play that gets adapted to how the opponent plays in a specific situation - nothing spectacular.
I don't understand how people can have such strongly formed opinions on saying gg at the end of a match. There is no official rule and there is no unofficial consensus. I think it ridiculous to draw conclusions about a person based on the presence or absence of saying gg without knowing what it means to that person. To me it means nothing. I feel absolutely the same whether my opponent says gg or not. Barring any knowledge of what gg means to my opponent, I likewise feel absolutely the same whether I say gg or not. If I know that the presence and absence of gg communicate two distinct things to my opponent and/or spectators, then I'll make my decision based upon what I wish to communicate (which is why I've said that I'll always say gg for live broadcasts since spectators like to see it and I'm happy to oblige).
In retrospect, I guess to Draco it is reassurance that he is respected by his opponent. I find it silly that he needs such reassurance after every game he wins, but if that's what I must do to be respectful to him, then I'd do it. I think it's bad manner to be winning 2-0 and call your opponent bad manner before the third game starts, which is what Draco did to me. It would have been much nicer if he had just asked "do you respect me?" if that's what he truly sought. He was definitely being hostile, perhaps only because he thought I was being hostile, but there was no mistaking his disrespect to me at that point. I suppose he already decided that I was bad manner beyond repair and so he was satisfied to just judge and condemn me rather than utilize patience and tolerance to reach the truth.
The absence of gg in my match against Draco has communicated a sentiment which I never had and so I apologize for that miscommunication. I respect all the TSL participants, including Draco. I wish all the spectators to simply enjoy the games and I wish to do nothing that would obstruct that enjoyment. If Draco became hostile only because he thought I was hostile, then it was simply a misunderstanding and I happily forgive him.
For practical use, I despise indirect communication such as the symbolic act of saying gg. So if you want to know something of me, please ask directly and spare us both the effort of attempting communication through confusing, impractical and often faulty means. It is unsettling to see misinterpretations of my communications lead to bad opinions of me and I imagine it is just as uncomfortable for you all to have to draw conclusions with insufficient perspective. I hope my post will rid us of these troubles.
Thank you for such an articulate reply, though it's a bit sad that you have to resort to such.
On May 30 2008 06:35 sasal wrote: Nobody plays everytime his best. Your opponents suffer the same problems. Only replying gg when you are winning and felt like you played good while say nothing when your opponent might had the better hand this time is egocentric. When you feel like you could do better you can keep it by yourself and better luck next time. No need to diminish the fun and preformance of the ones who went out luckier against you this time.
There is very little luck involved in this game. Skill is what defines each player. I stand by my opinion that saying gg is customary but not obligatory. You won, go ahead and relish in your victory. There is no need in toiling in the fact that your opponent didn't 'honor' your win.
I understand what you are saying Nony. However, you must understand that saying gg when you lose has always been good gaming etiquette, and a player who doesn't say gg when he loses usually doesn't do so because he disrespects the other player, thinks the other player was lucky or something similar, which is why it is considered "bm".
Perhaps it is because you are a relatively "new" player that you don't quite understand this?
Anyway it is good that you explain your thoughts on it. People will hopefully understand that you didn't mean to be disrespectful or anything.
If theres no "official" rule or consensus on saying gg after a game, then there isnt one on deserving a rematch after losing either. Yet you made a really big deal when cloud refused to rematch you because he was tired, and I believe you accused him of helping mondragon because they were friends. Similarly, after a bgh tourney recently, you became extremely bm after losing to koolams team simply because he did "^^" (I was in the channel when that happened). It seems very hypocritical that you seem so sensitive about bnet manners, yet act in a way that you yourself wouldn't find pleasing.
You generally strike me as a nice guy, but you seem to let yourself down occasionally by acting like this.
Nice post by Nony to clear up his position and it shows that he cares about his fans and TL.
@stalker: Yeah its your opinion. I can respect it and also understand it to a certain point. But what is customary has just great influence and is a crucial point. Since humans are no collective beeings like the Zerg or Borg and you dont know what exacly is going on in the head of the other one, the communities and socities are based on common behavior patterns and etiquettes with which people manage to live together and interpret the behavior of others.
If people are used to that it is common to say gg at the end to show respect and give a positive feedback about the game and experienced that the exceptions in the past were mostly people who went mad or hated them for their victory they will interpret the behaviour of unknown people in future based on all this background.
The same thing for example when I dont mind to say good morning after I woke up because personally for me it is nothing special and a empty phrase. But when I visit somebody in a community where it is normal and I would just go in the kitchen without minding the others on my way they would also think whats wrong with this guy. Thats all about manners.
So if people know Nony and know he doesnt say gg to anybody in this situations they maybe just begin to dont care anymore. Atleast I would do from now on. But if they dont and are used to that it is part of the Starcraft etiquette they will take it more as disrespect or hating.
I think there definitely is an 'unofficial consensus' that considers saying 'gg' after games part of mannered gaming etiquette.
Edit: That being said, I understand where Nony's coming from. The only issue for me is that saying 'gg' is part of our TSL rules so perhaps it would have been better to say it.
lol its funny people consider nony a "new" player. Ive known of nony ever since i started getting really into sc back in 2004 2005? Of course he wasnt as dominant as today, but i did know of him.
Saying gg is like etiquette... if you do something at a fancy dinner that defies etiquette, like burp really loud or something, people are going to get offended. Just because "it means nothing to you" doesn't make it right for you to do it, socially speaking. It's the same with saying gg.
Sorry but you really can't compare this to table manners.
I would dare say that 99% of the people in here who are arguing that not saying gg is not bad mannered would also say that refusing to shake hands after a chess match is terribly bad mannered. You can try to prove me wrong on this. But a simple 'gg' is just....not the same, if you will.
I think it is, explain how it's not... saying "its not the same" isn't proving anything .. :O
Can you explain why ANYONE would say 'gg' in a situation where the game isn't actually good?? What percentage of games anybody plays are actually good. I'm sure a huge portion of games are one sided either way, and yet still people say 'gg' . Why do they do it? Obviously, because it's good manners to do so. Why do you shake someone's hand after a chess match? Because it's good manners to do so. What if the guy you played just embarassed you horribly, you'd still shake hands. If you don't it is considered extremely rude. If you eat a meal at someone's house and don't express some kind of gratitude, it's considered rude. Even if the meal wasn't great, you still do it.
Saying 'gg' at the end of games is exactly the same. If you spend any amount of time on this game and value your reputation at all, then it's logical to assume that all three of the activities I've stated are the same.
On May 31 2008 07:03 NonY - wrote: I hope my post will rid us of these troubles.
Not happening, especially when I don't even agree with most of what you wrote. A much easier way of ridding this "trouble" would be just to type gg at the end of each game. It's not that hard.
If you don't say gg after a match in a Korean league, you are punished severely. It should be the same in TSL, especially considering it's one of the official rules.
Draco, I think you have a certain class that is lacking in alot of today's youth- not to mention gamers. Genuine honesty is hard to find and such a thing is appreciated by all of us. Don't mind the neighsayers.
------------------------------------------------------------------------ On April 04 2008 10:40 FirstProbe wrote: Hide nested quote - On April 04 2008 10:30 1t2t3t4t5taw wrote: On April 04 2008 02:42 NonY[rC] wrote: keke i really played poorly that game and mondi did not let up
Your opponent complimented you and he's the best Zerg foreigner. Do you ever lose when you're not "playing really badly?" I guess that Mondragon, playing his "ass off," can only win when you're playing badly.
I don't think any foreigner has ever been able to just say that they lost without any superfluous information.
I've lost a lot of respect for Nony. He makes similar comments every time he loses. Like you said, these comments detract from the (good) play of the opponent, and tries to suggest that he would've won if he played remotely well. Even if that is the case, so what, it didn't happen. ------------------------------------------------------------------------
Thats the type of person he is. Egotistical, self-centred, and probably a bad loser.
Thats not to say he's a bad person. Just the above.
Saying gg is just etiquette, and everyone knows it. Everyone feels like they played a bad game to some extent when they lost, Nony is no exception. If you're frustrated and angry, of course you don't feel like it was a good game, but no one takes it to actually mean that.
Being proud and self-centered like he is, it makes sense that he wouldn't gg, especially knowing the chat isn't broadcast.
On May 31 2008 09:44 CultureMisfits wrote: lol its funny people consider nony a "new" player. Ive known of nony ever since i started getting really into sc back in 2004 2005? Of course he wasnt as dominant as today, but i did know of him.
I would consider 2004/2005 relatively new actually.
Well... at least Nony don't say shit like "LOL YOU FUKIN NEWB YOU ARE SO LUCKY, this is seriously the worst fucking game of my life, you are a lucky son of a bitch, you suck ass, yet you somehow pull some fukin miracle outta your ass. i hope you realize how much you SUCK newbie"
I guess it's fine that he doesn't wanna say gg after games. It's strange, it bothers me a lot that a player so dominant like him would not bother to press 4 keys, two of which are the same...Certainly it was in the rules to say so... (I cannot believe TSL staffs added this rule :D)... If this were in korea, he would be fined I'm sure... (just like how july got fined 500 dollars for coming late... and also chalrenge for saying fuck on chat that everyone could see..)
but anyway, now the whole bw scene knows nony as the guy who doesn't type gg at the end :D maybe he loves the attention, maybe he's just a sore loser. o_Oa
On May 31 2008 17:08 stalife wrote: Well... at least Nony don't say shit like "LOL YOU FUKIN NEWB YOU ARE SO LUCKY, this is seriously the worst fucking game of my life, you are a lucky son of a bitch, you suck ass, yet you somehow pull some fukin miracle outta your ass. i hope you realize how much you SUCK newbie"
He does say it, but its packed in with other words like the one someone said he posted in the him vs mondragon rep comments. Some would actually go as far as saying that not saying gg can be interpreted as the sentence you quoted. There are tons of "mannered" nonkoreans who make excuses nearly every loss they get, claims to never practice etc both in present time and in the past. Its not a phenomenon, and I dont find it bad mannered, but a perhaps a sign of lack of confidence.
Personally I dont care. These are the two reactions most common if someone doesnt say gg
1.) You might be offended by not "getting respect" like in Dracos case. In this case the winner will most likely turn down a rematch-request from the loser because he feels the loser doesnt respect him.
2.) You get amused because you know your opponent is madly pissed off and probably slamming his keyboard or something like that. In this case the winner will probably accept a rematch-request, but turn it down at first, both to see the reaction from the loser to get some more amusement, but also to get a psychological adventage in the rematch(you want to have your opponent boiling over with anger as the rematch starts, and get him in the "I have to win now" "Fuck if I lose another time vs this newb" mindset)
I would pick option 2, but in this case I would also understand the loser not only due to the stakes(much $), but also how he got 0-3ed by someone who doesnt practice at all but yet somehow has superior mechanics.
Obviously the rematch issue in 1.) and 2.) doesnt apply in a Bo5 in a tournament as in this case.
yeah nony is a huge arrogant asshat. maybe next time you should just oblige to the widely accepted standard of saying "gg". You'd have to type so much less than not typing it and writing a big post on TL explaining why u dont type it. Nobody cares that you think it isn't necessary. The world doesnt revolve around you. The scene widely accepted it as a standard fair play move, so u have to too. Damn, u would be one of those completely ignorant fucktards who walk into a mosque without taking off their shoes first, cus well, having on shoes doesnt mean anything for you, does it?
Nony has always been a little crybaby after he lost. I beat him once very badly when he picked offrace vs me zvp. Afterwords I asked him for re PvP since i obviously showed him my skill by so easily defeating his offrace. After i asked this, he proceeded to tell me, "YOU KNOW HOW BAD MANNERED IT IS TO ASK FOR RE WHEN YOU WIN?" all in caps. This was pretty disappointing, but still thinking he was just a little upset and not a bad person, i continued. I simply told him, "Hey I just study some of your reps and I am a fan and i just would love the chance to pvp you." After I said this, the only thing the idiot could muster up was, "Well your not a real fan, I stole nonys ID, SOME FAN YOU ARE!!." Realizing the poor fucking idiot was out of his mind i left it at that only to see nony on the id two days later. Once a bitch always a bitch.
Who cares if ppl don't say gg... "gg" strictly means "good game" and if I play a bad game I wouldn't say gg. I would say stuff like fdasfeakfjdlsa; or Bah! or Oh well
Saying gg is like shaking hands after a tennis game. There would be alot of irritation if federer refused to shake hands with nadal after losing in the finals. Nony is right there is no rule saying you have to say gg, but noone said there was such a rule anyway. And everything isn't about written rules. 50% of how we live our daily lives are about unwritten rules and ettiquette (spelling?).
i'm sure nony doesn't say gg for a reason, and it's cause he hates losing, he just fabricates a theory here that really makes anyone think..why bother giving it so much thought and just say gg like everyone else.
It's not law or anything, but there is in fact a(n unofficial) consensus that gg marks the end of the game, and that gg shows that you're just as happy loosing, or that you at least had a fun time. The intrinsic aspect of showing respect for your opponent is of the same when it comes to saying gg: You just shared 15-30 minutes with, presumably, a complete stranger. In some situations, that's enough to get you laid, heh. If your opponent made the game bore you to shit, just leave, but if you had fun with that completely unknown person; give him an "i_had_fun = true". It also makes the end of the game unambiguous: gg == game over and one has given up. It's pretty basic stuff, and as long as a piece of etiquette has a function (as they seldom do), I'm in.
in korean pro gaming leagues i believe it is a kespa sanctioned rule to type GG before you leave the game. if not you are penalized in some manner.
if the goal of TSL is to emulate the korean leagues, such basic rules need to be upheld. everyone knows that at the end of a game you're supposed to type gg, there is really no excuse not to.
Honestly Nony this really makes me lose all respect I had for you. Saying gg IS the equivalent of shaking hands after matches in other sports, if you don't do it you're basically letting everyone know what a sore loser you are.
There is no official rule and there is no unofficial consensus.
Ofcourse not, respecting your opponent is not required at all, that's why it's so important that you say gg to show it. Don't do it? Fine but don't count on anyone respecting you after it for being immature.
In retrospect, I guess to Draco it is reassurance that he is respected by his opponent. I find it silly that he needs such reassurance after every game he wins,
You're trying to turn the whole thing around into Draco feeling insecure if someone doesn't say gg to him? Jesus christ just STOP.
I always thought you were a cool guy, you should've just admitted you lost your cool and didn't gg, not come up with some bullshit story telling us that somehow this makes Draco seem like the lesser player, you don't honestly believe that do you.
On May 31 2008 11:24 Xeris wrote: Saying gg is like etiquette... if you do something at a fancy dinner that defies etiquette, like burp really loud or something, people are going to get offended. Just because "it means nothing to you" doesn't make it right for you to do it, socially speaking. It's the same with saying gg.
I didn't know it was an official rule in the TSL. Well, you should type GG next time regardless of how negatively you feel about it as long as you participate in this league.
On May 31 2008 20:21 evanthebouncy! wrote: Who cares if ppl don't say gg... "gg" strictly means "good game" and if I play a bad game I wouldn't say gg. I would say stuff like fdasfeakfjdlsa; or Bah! or Oh well
I say it again, it's bad mannered to demand a gg from Nony.
Yes, his post doesn't make any sense. He is just rationalizing. He should just say: "I was pissed off. I played like crap. I didn't want to say 'gg'. I don't like saying 'gg' when I lose. Draco has all my respect. He played well."
Attack him on that point. Not on the 'gg' one. That's so superficial.
I think it's bad mannered for Draco to have brought it up. I thought it was nonsense people called him arrogant or bm when Draco said he didn't practice. If they don't want to believe that, fine. But that also went too far.
Now all this drama It's all so straight forward...
It's been said that he never says gg =/ It's not a random story he's just making up right now. I agree that it's hard to believe anyone wouldn't make the connection between athletes shaking hands (and saying "good game") after a game, and StarCraft players saying "gg," but it doesn't mean NonY is purposefully being disrespectful. Haven't you heard his commentaries? iirc he even admitted he wasn't much of a people person (in so many words). That's just how he is, so learning to mechanically say "gg" after his matches is good enough for me.
PS: If you still think NonY is a BM jerk making shit up, you should look at what he's done for the community. NonY is obviously a great community person, and it's the reason I was cheering for him to take the whole TSL in the first place. Commentaries and FPVODs are things he never had to do, but he wanted to be a nice guy so he released them.
On May 31 2008 21:14 ret wrote: i'm sure nony doesn't say gg for a reason, and it's cause he hates losing, he just fabricates a theory here that really makes anyone think..why bother giving it so much thought and just say gg like everyone else.
On May 31 2008 09:21 Last Romantic wrote: I think there definitely is an 'unofficial consensus' that considers saying 'gg' after games part of mannered gaming etiquette.
Edit: That being said, I understand where Nony's coming from. The only issue for me is that saying 'gg' is part of our TSL rules so perhaps it would have been better to say it.
end of discussion. nony was wrong and obviously didn't read the rules seeing as how saying "gg" is part of the tsl rules. so no more of this "unofficial" crap.. it's official. also, why are people bashing draco for bringing up that nony didn't say gg? ever since sc started people have always said gg in order to proclaim "good game" whether it was one or not. take korean leagues for example, it is mandatory for the gamer to type out "gg" before leaving or else they are penalized. why is that? because it's a show of manner and respect, both areas in which nony lacks in. why do you have to come up with some shit explaining why you don't say "gg" and fill it with words that a good amount of tl.net users wont understand? you're doing nothing but making yourself look like an imbecile. just admit your wrong and apologize for it.. that's all you had to do.
lol this really reminds me of that scene in reservoir dogs where this one guy doesn't want to tip
TL.net dude #1: Okay, everybody cough up the gg's for the draco.
TL.net dude #1: C'mon, throw in a gg.
Nony: Uh-uh. I don't say gg.
TL.net dude #1: Whaddaya mean you don't say gg?
Nony: I don't believe in it.
TL.net dude #1: You don't believe in saying gg?
TL.net dude #2: I love this kid, he's a madman, this guy.
TL.net dude #3: Do you have any idea how many gg's Draco gets? He gets shit.
Nony: Don't give me that. He don't make enough gg's, he can quit.
TL.net dude #1: I don't even know an USEast-player who'd have the balls to say that. So let's get this straight. You never ever say gg?
Nony: I don't say gg because society says I gotta. I gg when somebody deserves a gg. When somebody really puts forth an effort, they deserve a little something extra. But this gg'ing automatically, that shit's for the birds. As far as I'm concerned, they're just doin their job.
TL.net dude #4: Draco was nice.
Nony: Draco was okay. He didn't do anything special.
TL.net dude #2: What's something special, dark templar rush followed up by mass mind control and finish up with mass scout?
TL.net dude #1: I'd go over twelve percent for that.
Nony: Look, I ordered some harsh ownage. Now we've been here a long fuckin time, and he's only owned my ass three times. When I ask for ownage, I want to be owned six times.
TL.net dude #2: What if he's too busy?
Nony: The words "too busy" shouldn't be in Draco's vocabulary.
TL.net dude #1: Excuse me, Nony, but the last thing you need is another case of ownage.
Nony: Draco isn't starvin to death. He makes the minimum amount of gg's. When I worked for gg's, I wasn't lucky enough to have a job that society deemed ggworthy.
On May 31 2008 21:14 ret wrote: i'm sure nony doesn't say gg for a reason, and it's cause he hates losing, he just fabricates a theory here that really makes anyone think..why bother giving it so much thought and just say gg like everyone else.
I'm a total newbie, but while playing DoW for a while, I've always gg'ed no matter I sucked, or we both sucked - if I lost, this meant my opponent outplayed me(even if he didn't show anything special) so it was good game from him. So I agree with everyone who criticized NonY for not gg'ing Draco.
one consideration you could take in is what previous posters have said about nonys contributions to the foreign sc scene in general. i for one, appreciate his fpvods - as humorous and helpful as they are. he's a great player, and he has his ways and opinions, just like everyone else ( this thread shows everyone can have an opinion ). i just personally think its wrong to crucify him for leaving private rated matches without saying gg.
he didn't damn anyone to hell. he didn't spit on dracos game play. and he took the time out to write a 3-4 paragraph post to explain himself. which in my opinion ( everyone can have one! watch out! ) - is disrespecting nony. shuving him to the defensive for just not wanting to say gg? i've played sc-scBW since December of '98. i've seen thousands of end game sayings and ways people express themselves for a loss or win. and yes 'gg' is the universal way to end a game. but heres another opinion - saying gg, doesn't define the player. and from my solid 10 years of playing sc i can say one thing for sure. everyone has left a game without saying a bloody thing. upset and overheated to the lack of their mechanics in the last 45 minutes - you just (we all just), shut the computer off period. does that take away all you've contributed to the sc scene? does that take away all your hard work and practice towards the game? well, (imo) no.
so please before hammering nails in someone, take a second to analyze everything you've done in the past, and realize nobody's perfect and we all have our ways. this was in no way intended to bash anyone, not even the harshest of commentors on this forum taking direct punches at nony. please realize that ripping someone apart over personal opinion would of led to the end of the world before you any of us inhabited it.
but you can make your own judgment on the situation.
draco and nony, and everyone else in the tsl thus far - gg's really. gg tonight nony and brat. just play the game good and well, keep the community alive. this game means alot.
On June 01 2008 04:18 lowchi wrote: one consideration you could take in is what previous posters have said about nonys contributions to the foreign sc scene in general. i for one, appreciate his fpvods - as humorous and helpful as they are. he's a great player, and he has his ways and opinions, just like everyone else ( this thread shows everyone can have an opinion ). i just personally think its wrong to crucify him for leaving private rated matches without saying gg.
he didn't damn anyone to hell. he didn't spit on dracos game play. and he took the time out to write a 3-4 paragraph post to explain himself. which in my opinion ( everyone can have one! watch out! ) - is disrespecting nony. shuving him to the defensive for just not wanting to say gg? i've played sc-scBW since December of '98. i've seen thousands of end game sayings and ways people express themselves for a loss or win. and yes 'gg' is the universal way to end a game. but heres another opinion - saying gg, doesn't define the player. and from my solid 10 years of playing sc i can say one thing for sure. everyone has left a game without saying a bloody thing. upset and overheated to the lack of their mechanics in the last 45 minutes - you just (we all just), shut the computer off period. does that take away all you've contributed to the sc scene? does that take away all your hard work and practice towards the game? well, (imo) no.
so please before hammering nails in someone, take a second to analyze everything you've done in the past, and realize nobody's perfect and we all have our ways. this was in no way intended to bash anyone, not even the harshest of commentors on this forum taking direct punches at nony. please realize that ripping someone apart over personal opinion would of led to the end of the world before you any of us inhabited it.
but you can make your own judgment on the situation.
draco and nony, and everyone else in the tsl thus far - gg's really. gg tonight nony and brat. just play the game good and well, keep the community alive. this game means alot.
there's a difference between every-day bw games and the semi-final matches from one of the most prestigious tournaments outside of korea.
On June 01 2008 04:18 lowchi wrote: one consideration you could take in is what previous posters have said about nonys contributions to the foreign sc scene in general. i for one, appreciate his fpvods - as humorous and helpful as they are. he's a great player, and he has his ways and opinions, just like everyone else ( this thread shows everyone can have an opinion ). i just personally think its wrong to crucify him for leaving private rated matches without saying gg.
he didn't damn anyone to hell. he didn't spit on dracos game play. and he took the time out to write a 3-4 paragraph post to explain himself. which in my opinion ( everyone can have one! watch out! ) - is disrespecting nony. shuving him to the defensive for just not wanting to say gg? i've played sc-scBW since December of '98. i've seen thousands of end game sayings and ways people express themselves for a loss or win. and yes 'gg' is the universal way to end a game. but heres another opinion - saying gg, doesn't define the player. and from my solid 10 years of playing sc i can say one thing for sure. everyone has left a game without saying a bloody thing. upset and overheated to the lack of their mechanics in the last 45 minutes - you just (we all just), shut the computer off period. does that take away all you've contributed to the sc scene? does that take away all your hard work and practice towards the game? well, (imo) no.
so please before hammering nails in someone, take a second to analyze everything you've done in the past, and realize nobody's perfect and we all have our ways. this was in no way intended to bash anyone, not even the harshest of commentors on this forum taking direct punches at nony. please realize that ripping someone apart over personal opinion would of led to the end of the world before you any of us inhabited it.
but you can make your own judgment on the situation.
draco and nony, and everyone else in the tsl thus far - gg's really. gg tonight nony and brat. just play the game good and well, keep the community alive. this game means alot.
there's a difference between every-day bw games and the semi-final matches from one of the most prestigious tournaments outside of korea.
yep, sure everyone has done it, but i am sure 90% dont do it on league matches or stuff like that... let alone the tsl semifinals....
On May 31 2008 11:52 Xeris wrote: I think it is, explain how it's not... saying "its not the same" isn't proving anything .. :O
Can you explain why ANYONE would say 'gg' in a situation where the game isn't actually good?? What percentage of games anybody plays are actually good. I'm sure a huge portion of games are one sided either way, and yet still people say 'gg' . Why do they do it? Obviously, because it's good manners to do so. Why do you shake someone's hand after a chess match? Because it's good manners to do so. What if the guy you played just embarassed you horribly, you'd still shake hands. If you don't it is considered extremely rude. If you eat a meal at someone's house and don't express some kind of gratitude, it's considered rude. Even if the meal wasn't great, you still do it.
Saying 'gg' at the end of games is exactly the same. If you spend any amount of time on this game and value your reputation at all, then it's logical to assume that all three of the activities I've stated are the same.
exactly right. i'm not surprised nobody reacted to this post though, but that's another story.
saying gg is not about honoring your opponent or implying to be playing worse than your opponent. it just shows that you can lose in style. and just like shaking hands after a chess match, it is absolutely necessary in order to be regarded as an honorful player.
of course, having an attitude like "i'm only saying gg when i really think it was a 'good game'" is everyones free choice to make. but please, don't be whining when people truthfully state a lack of fair sportsmanship in such cases.
on the other hand i don't know why draco is complaining about this, results speak for themselves after all. whatever.
I agree with Nony. I barely ever say GG either, and I barely ever get GG's. If you think hes meaning to be disrespectful, just ask. All in all though people kinda jumped on Nony unfairly, hes not a bad guy. Even if he didn't say gg because he was angry [which was not the case] its still understandable. Its a heated, stressful event. If any perceived disrespect occurs, you can clear it up when the situation is more calm.
On May 31 2008 21:14 ret wrote: i'm sure nony doesn't say gg for a reason, and it's cause he hates losing, he just fabricates a theory here that really makes anyone think..why bother giving it so much thought and just say gg like everyone else.
On June 01 2008 08:32 ScarFace wrote: I agree with Nony. I barely ever say GG either, and I barely ever get GG's. If you think hes meaning to be disrespectful, just ask. All in all though people kinda jumped on Nony unfairly, hes not a bad guy. Even if he didn't say gg because he was angry [which was not the case] its still understandable. Its a heated, stressful event. If any perceived disrespect occurs, you can clear it up when the situation is more calm.
why do people have such needs to be different? just type the 2 letters it has been the symbol for defeat at the end of a starcraft game for 10 years now?
On June 01 2008 08:32 ScarFace wrote: I agree with Nony. I barely ever say GG either, and I barely ever get GG's. If you think hes meaning to be disrespectful, just ask. All in all though people kinda jumped on Nony unfairly, hes not a bad guy. Even if he didn't say gg because he was angry [which was not the case] its still understandable. Its a heated, stressful event. If any perceived disrespect occurs, you can clear it up when the situation is more calm.
why do people have such needs to be different? just type the 2 letters it has been the symbol for defeat at the end of a starcraft game for 10 years now?
It's not a matter of being different, its just the way you are. Personally, I don't say gg because im an emotional player. I get pissed off and I storm out of the game. Though when I reflect on the game I wish I had congratulated the person who beat me. I don't mean disrespect to the person who beat me, its not a snip against him. I'm just angry and quickly want to leave. Other people just don't think of saying gg, and want to move on to the next game. It's not a want to be a different, its just the way you are.
Take professions of other kinds. Music, or Cooking (i think of Iron Chef or something) MMA, the fighters generally hug or shake hands after the fight. its a ceremony. It has an importance to these individuals. Now, playing online and then later being broadcasted may not be as "epic" or as public,or LIVE, but the money is there still, and so that level of play. Theres a reward you are getting that the thousands of others couldnt get.
I think a little "gg" doesnt do anyone harm, but keep in mind the talent the top players worked hard for, or may have been blessed and endowed with a little more than others. I think the respect for the other players should be taken into consideration. I admit I have left a game or so without saying GG, but it doesnt mean I have to always look down on it. The Razer TSL is one of the most exciting ladders I have watched. It almost took the place of the Korean Leagues for me, but it was still as competitive. I think for something that garnered THAT much attention, should be treated as such to preserve that professional and competitive nature of the game is in korea. I wouldnt want to see that changed for anything. (even though the spectators just watch replays, but still)
In boxing, I like to tap the opponents glove after a flurry, it is a break in the fight to keep the competition friendly. But also recognizes their skill. Being in the heat of battle like that, I dont think of it as "another empty ceremony" Its something I love doing. And especially music.
Whenever I jam or something, its just nice to compliment the other players and give them a turn to solo or something. Its just fun and I love doing it. The pride even. I am not widely known or anything, but I watch my words and deeds because it may bite back at me if Im not careful, I think if I do get more and more known. I still will be myself, but I would like to be also known as being well mannered, along with being a guitar player.
Nony is a great starcraft player. Thats still gonna be for darn sure. Just keep in mind we like watching the games that you and many others made pretty exciting.
Being an "emotional" player or "just the way you are" is not an acceptable excuse for refusing to say gg after a match in the quarter finals of the TL Star League.
What would people think if Federer refused to shake hands with Nadal after losing a match? Look what happened when Savior simply took off his headphones before saying gg. He got punished for it. Basic etiquette matters in a competitive environment.
I don't understand how people can have such strongly formed opinions on saying "LOL U LOSE NUB" at the end of a match when I beat nubs. There is no official rule and there is no unofficial consensus. I think it ridiculous to draw conclusions about a person based on the presence or absence of saying "LOL U LOSE NUB" without knowing what it means to that person. To me it means nothing. I feel absolutely the same whether my opponent says "LOL U LOSE NUB" or not.
The presence of "LOL U LOSE NUB" in my match against D- nubs has communicated a sentiment which I never had and so I apologize for that miscommunication. I respect all the bw nubs, including D- ones. I wish all the spectators to simply enjoy the games and I wish to do nothing that would obstruct that enjoyment. If D- nubs became hostile only because they thought I was hostile, then it was simply a misunderstanding and I happily forgive them.
On June 01 2008 16:18 VIB wrote: I don't understand how people can have such strongly formed opinions on saying "LOL U LOSE NUB" at the end of a match when I beat nubs. There is no official rule and there is no unofficial consensus. I think it ridiculous to draw conclusions about a person based on the presence or absence of saying "LOL U LOSE NUB" without knowing what it means to that person. To me it means nothing. I feel absolutely the same whether my opponent says "LOL U LOSE NUB" or not.
The presence of "LOL U LOSE NUB" in my match against D- nubs has communicated a sentiment which I never had and so I apologize for that miscommunication. I respect all the bw nubs, including D- ones. I wish all the spectators to simply enjoy the games and I wish to do nothing that would obstruct that enjoyment. If D- nubs became hostile only because they thought I was hostile, then it was simply a misunderstanding and I happily forgive them.
On June 01 2008 08:32 ScarFace wrote: I agree with Nony. I barely ever say GG either, and I barely ever get GG's. If you think hes meaning to be disrespectful, just ask. All in all though people kinda jumped on Nony unfairly, hes not a bad guy. Even if he didn't say gg because he was angry [which was not the case] its still understandable. Its a heated, stressful event. If any perceived disrespect occurs, you can clear it up when the situation is more calm.
why do people have such needs to be different? just type the 2 letters it has been the symbol for defeat at the end of a starcraft game for 10 years now?
It's not a matter of being different, its just the way you are. Personally, I don't say gg because im an emotional player. I get pissed off and I storm out of the game. Though when I reflect on the game I wish I had congratulated the person who beat me. I don't mean disrespect to the person who beat me, its not a snip against him. I'm just angry and quickly want to leave. Other people just don't think of saying gg, and want to move on to the next game. It's not a want to be a different, its just the way you are.
Do you know what you just described? A sore loser...
For example, in sports like tennis, people usually shake hands after a match. If one player loses and then storms off he IS a sore loser. Its the same thing.
On June 01 2008 08:32 ScarFace wrote: I agree with Nony. I barely ever say GG either, and I barely ever get GG's. If you think hes meaning to be disrespectful, just ask. All in all though people kinda jumped on Nony unfairly, hes not a bad guy. Even if he didn't say gg because he was angry [which was not the case] its still understandable. Its a heated, stressful event. If any perceived disrespect occurs, you can clear it up when the situation is more calm.
why do people have such needs to be different? just type the 2 letters it has been the symbol for defeat at the end of a starcraft game for 10 years now?
It's not a matter of being different, its just the way you are. Personally, I don't say gg because im an emotional player. I get pissed off and I storm out of the game. Though when I reflect on the game I wish I had congratulated the person who beat me. I don't mean disrespect to the person who beat me, its not a snip against him. I'm just angry and quickly want to leave. Other people just don't think of saying gg, and want to move on to the next game. It's not a want to be a different, its just the way you are.
Do you know what you just described? A sore loser...
For example, in sports like tennis, people usually shake hands after a match. If one player loses and then storms off he IS a sore loser. Its the same thing.
yeah really funny how he says "im angry and wanna leave" and at the same time come up with the theory that other people like nony dont gg for other reasons.... newsflash: everybody, including nony, leaves the game without GGing cus they are angry and just wanna leave quickly. Making up a huge ass theory so you dont even have to admit to yourself that u have a problem with losing just shows how much of an inflated ego you have. After reading Idras Interviews and now reading nonys posts and seeing his behavior in TSL I am starting to wonder why the newer US top players have to be such huge immature and ignorant douchebags.
Not saying GG in a live streaming game in a large tournament is the same as throwing a temper tantrum. You're basically stomping your feet and crying in the middle of the supermarket because you're angry you didn't get your way. Nony is a child. He knew it's rude and did it anyways because he has no respect for TSL and his opponent. He's out now, who cares what happens. That's the way children think. Maybe you could take out your frustration on another stripper with your lacrosse buddies at Duke, Nony.
On June 01 2008 16:18 VIB wrote: I don't understand how people can have such strongly formed opinions on saying "LOL U LOSE NUB" at the end of a match when I beat nubs. There is no official rule and there is no unofficial consensus. I think it ridiculous to draw conclusions about a person based on the presence or absence of saying "LOL U LOSE NUB" without knowing what it means to that person. To me it means nothing. I feel absolutely the same whether my opponent says "LOL U LOSE NUB" or not.
The presence of "LOL U LOSE NUB" in my match against D- nubs has communicated a sentiment which I never had and so I apologize for that miscommunication. I respect all the bw nubs, including D- ones. I wish all the spectators to simply enjoy the games and I wish to do nothing that would obstruct that enjoyment. If D- nubs became hostile only because they thought I was hostile, then it was simply a misunderstanding and I happily forgive them.
EPT
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