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Is there a balance problem with Brood Lord + Infestor? - P…

Forum Index > Polls & Liquibet
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FlowerBunny
Profile Joined December 2010
Sweden187 Posts
November 08 2012 21:50 GMT
#21
How can Yes only have 47%? Freakin' zergs voting no...
I was a Terran player. I am a Terran player. I will always be a Terran player
Deimos0
Profile Blog Joined May 2008
Poland277 Posts
November 08 2012 22:07 GMT
#22
The thing is, that using Mothership is still very random when it comes to results, just like when P tries to land good vortex. Good recalls are somewhat similiar - of course you can outmanouver Zerg with this ability, but it doesn't change a fact that you have very little margin of possible mistake on when and where recall, so still Z is at advantage with less effort.
protect me from what I want
Sakkreth
Profile Joined February 2011
Lithuania1096 Posts
November 08 2012 22:11 GMT
#23
On November 09 2012 06:46 TranceNinjax wrote:
If they nerfed infestors too much. Zerg will lose.

There'is a reason why it's in the game. If there was a massive design flaw, it would have been fixed already..

Maybe just take off the energy thing. that's the only nerf it needs.

While we're at it, why dont we buff ultras too?


There is more than one massive design flaw and it's not fixed.

"Support" unit infestor is never a bad choice and is good against everything and can be massed.
Collosi makes pvp dumb when u get into collosi phase, imagine pvp without collosi.
Sentries, u have to make them to stay alive. Supposed to be defensive unit, used in strongest 2 base all-ins.

Etc. Etc.
WhiteRa, NaNiWa, Creator, sOs, Krr, ForGG, MMA, Zest ||
Madars
Profile Joined December 2011
Latvia166 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-11-08 22:31:55
November 08 2012 22:18 GMT
#24
On November 09 2012 05:19 Archile wrote:
MVP.finale's use of voidrays to deal with broodlords and infestors

Which game it was? Was it in games vs Lee, Jae-Dong?

I have seen players try to use voidrays vs BL+Infestor combination, but so far Voidrays instantly melt to fungals+infested terrans. Perhaps one needs 3 times as many voidrays as zerg has infestors?

I like the idea to make infestor take 3 supply
<3 Alexis Eusebio, Lee Shin Hyung, Choi Seong Hun, Joo Sung Wook, Jang Min Chul, Kim Yoo Jin, Lee Young Ho, Lee Shin Hyung, Yun Young Seo, Kim Joon Ho, Jeong Jong Hyeon, Eo Yoon Su, Johan Lucchesi, Ilyes Satouri
Destructicon
Profile Blog Joined September 2011
4713 Posts
November 08 2012 22:23 GMT
#25
The critical problem with Infestors is that, Zerg's are entirely reliant on them now, it feels like the entirety of the race is build from the ground up with infestors in mind.
A nerf to infestors would probably also require a redesign and re balance of zerg across the board. All the other nerfs that terran got, to ghosts, BFH, tanks etc, well it was never as far reaching and bad because terran has such a solid lineup of viable units, and if you nerf one it doesn't the entirety of the race.

However, I feel that, for the sake of SC2, for the better of the game, I believe that Blizzard needs to go for the hard way out, and just nerf infestors and rebuild the zerg race.

Also, how the infestors are nerfed is very important. Ghosts, HT and Ravens have one thing in common, they have diminishing returns, no one makes too many of them, because after a certain number they become less useful. Infested Terrans don't have any diminishing returns, as long as the spell remains the way it is now, it will never be a bad idea to get too many infestors. The other problem is that, fungal doesn't really have diminishing returns either. It is damage over time, but it keeps units in place so you can fungal them again.
WriterNever give up, never surrender! https://www.youtube.com/user/DestructiconSC
Sapp
Profile Joined March 2011
Poland173 Posts
November 08 2012 22:24 GMT
#26
On November 09 2012 05:53 pookums wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 09 2012 05:42 DMZ wrote:
On November 09 2012 05:19 Archile wrote:
I voted for Yes, but it's ok to wait for HotS

in response to CoR:
there are a few tools in the protoss arsenal that just aren't being used to full potential

for example:
KiWiKaKi's use of the mothership for recall vs Stephano in IPL3
MVP.finale's use of voidrays to deal with broodlords and infestors
use of double warp prism WITH DTS + ZEALOTS. I cannot make it clear enough how important it is to mix these

I am a high masters zerg and still lose to protoss in the lategame. Some know how to deal with it, some don't.

Those with mindsets like yours that you can just sit back and wait until it's balanced are wasting their time.


I voted the same, as I feel lots of people seem to forget that there are ways of dealing with infestor BL. and terran- viking splits, seeker missile, ghost emp, harass. Infestor BL can definitely be beaten if the right counters are executed well.


I think one of the main problems is that yes, Infestor BL may be countered. But the level of skill required to pull off Infestor BL seems to be far lower than what is required to counter it from protoss and especially from terran. There might be something within the current confines of the game from the other races that is roughly the same amount of skill and power as late game zerg but it remains hidden as of yet.



ya, but look at the midgame. How many timeings terran or protoss can preform? countless. Zerg? not so much. how hard it is to play terran or protoss midgame? compared to zerg, not THAT hard at all.
It's easy to say "nerf the shit out of something" but ask yourself how the game would look like without bl/inf.
Quote? O.o?
Sapp
Profile Joined March 2011
Poland173 Posts
November 08 2012 22:28 GMT
#27
On November 09 2012 07:23 Destructicon wrote:
The critical problem with Infestors is that, Zerg's are entirely reliant on them now, it feels like the entirety of the race is build from the ground up with infestors in mind.


and that is because ANYTHING else, doesn't work
Quote? O.o?
Conny Duck
Profile Joined June 2011
Austria90 Posts
November 08 2012 22:33 GMT
#28
If they fix (nerf into olivion) infestors they also need to fix the other things like the immortal allin. In opposition to the immortal allin its actually quite hard to get to an good Broodlord-Infestor composition. (Zerg player here obv.)
QuietFrank
Profile Joined August 2012
United States6 Posts
November 08 2012 22:46 GMT
#29
On November 09 2012 05:16 CaptainPlatypus wrote:
I wouldn't say that there's a balance problem, I'd say that there's a design problem. A fix is necessary, but it isn't going to be as "simple" as tweaking the balance of the game.

I think most people miss this distinction, and the wording of the poll doesn't go a long way toward helping this.

Zerg late game is badly designed, but zerg isn't particularly unbalanced. So I voted no.
To be quiet frank...
mhael
Profile Joined January 2012
United States102 Posts
November 08 2012 22:47 GMT
#30
It needs to be fixed right away because we put so much stock not so much in our personal ladders, but in the GSL, OSL, MLG winners and it makes the games/tournaments boring.

I play SC2 when I can fit it in my busy schedule; but I never miss GSL. I want good games in GSL and I am tired of the zergs just ROLLING over everyone.

Toss needs a air splash unit like a corsair from BW. Zerg needs the cost of BL to go up and the spell energy cost on infestor spells to go up. Chain fungal and infested terran with a 200/200 army = about a 260/200 army + broodlings from the BL. Too many units to block someone from getting under BL and shooting the real units - not the free ones.

FIX THIS!!!!
TerrabeaSt
Profile Joined September 2012
Germany1 Post
November 08 2012 22:56 GMT
#31
ghost need more dmg
that is ok so i think that
snively
Profile Blog Joined August 2011
United States1159 Posts
November 08 2012 22:58 GMT
#32
On November 09 2012 05:16 CaptainPlatypus wrote:
I wouldn't say that there's a balance problem, I'd say that there's a design problem. A fix is necessary, but it isn't going to be as "simple" as tweaking the balance of the game.


yeah, thats a really good way to put it.


i voted for waiting for hots
My religion is Starcraft
Interstellar
Profile Joined May 2012
Mexico67 Posts
November 08 2012 23:18 GMT
#33
The Temptest should help balance the problem with Broodlords in HOTS for the complainers, but the thing is, also, if you LET a Zerg player get to tier 3 units then it's really more your lack of skill than the spell being OP. I've lost and won against Zerg playing BL/Infestor and it all depended on how well I harrassed and delayed their tier 3 units.
El que es chingon, es chingon.
Repomies
Profile Joined October 2011
Finland73 Posts
November 08 2012 23:20 GMT
#34
Yes, it needs to be fixed. There's roughly a bit over half a year time before HotS comes out so the wait is too long. I don't think any huge changes should be made. Bliz could experiment with supply costs or energy consumption. Just making it a little bit less advantageous for start would be okay
Saigon2246
Profile Joined October 2012
Hungary23 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-11-08 23:27:51
November 08 2012 23:26 GMT
#35
There'is a reason why it's in the game. If there was a massive design flaw, it would have been fixed already..


People, it's not just Inf-BL, the real problem is the GAME-DESIGN, you should have realized that by now.

If someone hasn't noticed yet, the entire game is a MASSIVE DESIGN FLAW, not just Infestor-Brood Lord.

I. Clump up/death ball effect
which leads to
-AoE insanely powerful and 200/200 battles taking less than a minute
which leads to
-the slightest mistakes to be punished very hard, very few epic comebacks
which leads to
-boring gameplay for viewers

II. Spells that deny movement and micro (force field, fungal and vortex)
which leads to
-spells are gamedeciding thus the game needs to balanced around spells
-even maps are forced to be designed around ffield to allow protoss taking a third

III.Hard counter design
which leads to
-whole game balanced around key units/spells that prevent an other unit being op (marine-colossus/infestor)
which leads to
-very strong units, which need very strong counter-units, that will render the countered units almost useless
which leads to
-game very unforgiving thus annoying to play against certain compositions because the skill required to pull of a strategy and to defend against that certain strategy is vastly different (BL-Infestor, PvT templar-colossus deathball lategame, then after battle instant remax on chargelots)
which leads to
-no real midgame
which leads to
-games turning into snoozefests as people rather just sit on their bases until they reach 200/200 armies because doing anything else is just suboptimal.

Now I ask you, do you really think that these issues are fixed.
Myles
Profile Blog Joined March 2010
United States5162 Posts
November 09 2012 00:00 GMT
#36
I'm not positive there's a balance problem, but there's certainly a design problem. It's boring as fuck to watch and not much better to play.
Moderator
Sajaki
Profile Joined June 2011
Canada1135 Posts
November 09 2012 00:23 GMT
#37
I voted that it's a problem, but to wait till hots. "standard play" will be so jumbled by then any changes made now to current units would make things more complicated. Although I would LOVE a minor infestor nerf and a hydralisk buff ...
The broodlord itself isnt the problem IMO. Just the infestor.
Inno pls...
forsakeNXE
Profile Joined October 2011
Germany539 Posts
November 09 2012 00:44 GMT
#38
Fungal should slow like 90% 80% Movement speed and/or infestors shoul cost 3 supply and/or fungal should not be able to stack up so you have a narrow window which allows movement. At least my openipn on that one. As Terran.
Let's learn together!
Nothing-
Profile Joined May 2012
United States5 Posts
November 09 2012 00:47 GMT
#39
On November 09 2012 07:24 Sapp wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 09 2012 05:53 pookums wrote:
On November 09 2012 05:42 DMZ wrote:
On November 09 2012 05:19 Archile wrote:
I voted for Yes, but it's ok to wait for HotS

in response to CoR:
there are a few tools in the protoss arsenal that just aren't being used to full potential

for example:
KiWiKaKi's use of the mothership for recall vs Stephano in IPL3
MVP.finale's use of voidrays to deal with broodlords and infestors
use of double warp prism WITH DTS + ZEALOTS. I cannot make it clear enough how important it is to mix these

I am a high masters zerg and still lose to protoss in the lategame. Some know how to deal with it, some don't.

Those with mindsets like yours that you can just sit back and wait until it's balanced are wasting their time.


I voted the same, as I feel lots of people seem to forget that there are ways of dealing with infestor BL. and terran- viking splits, seeker missile, ghost emp, harass. Infestor BL can definitely be beaten if the right counters are executed well.


I think one of the main problems is that yes, Infestor BL may be countered. But the level of skill required to pull off Infestor BL seems to be far lower than what is required to counter it from protoss and especially from terran. There might be something within the current confines of the game from the other races that is roughly the same amount of skill and power as late game zerg but it remains hidden as of yet.



ya, but look at the midgame. How many timeings terran or protoss can preform? countless. Zerg? not so much. how hard it is to play terran or protoss midgame? compared to zerg, not THAT hard at all.
It's easy to say "nerf the shit out of something" but ask yourself how the game would look like without bl/inf.


Really? Are you stuck in pre queen patch land? What countless mid game timings are you talking about? Lately the only midgame timing you see in TvZ is BF hellion. Otherwise, it's harass, go full-on macro and try to do something before BLs. In fact, it seems that zerg has the upper hand when it comes to midgame timings nowadays (just look at how Life and Leenock have been winning so many of their games).
DavoS
Profile Blog Joined October 2012
United States4605 Posts
November 09 2012 01:03 GMT
#40
On November 09 2012 05:42 DMZ wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 09 2012 05:19 Archile wrote:
I voted for Yes, but it's ok to wait for HotS

in response to CoR:
there are a few tools in the protoss arsenal that just aren't being used to full potential

for example:
KiWiKaKi's use of the mothership for recall vs Stephano in IPL3
MVP.finale's use of voidrays to deal with broodlords and infestors
use of double warp prism WITH DTS + ZEALOTS. I cannot make it clear enough how important it is to mix these

I am a high masters zerg and still lose to protoss in the lategame. Some know how to deal with it, some don't.

Those with mindsets like yours that you can just sit back and wait until it's balanced are wasting their time.


I voted the same, as I feel lots of people seem to forget that there are ways of dealing with infestor BL. and terran- viking splits, seeker missile, ghost emp, harass. Infestor BL can definitely be beaten if the right counters are executed well.


TvZ is still good since Vikings can deal with Brood/corruptor unless they turtle way too hard on too few bases. PvZ is the problem here, though I do wish Terrans would use Ravens more. They have the spare gas normally anyway, why not get a raven and save the scan energy?

Anyway, I've always held that Phoenix need to suck less. An air superiority unit shouldn't need an upgrade to win a 1 on 1 with a mutalisk. Or, Crank's been doing a lot of Zealot/warp prism/carrier play that works really well. Why not do more of that?
"KDA is actually the most useless stat in the game" Aui_2000
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