EPTThough I personally thought JD was on his way to Bonjwahood until, well, Flash. Flash is on the cusp of dominating a season more than any player has ever come close to dominating.
Power Rank 01/03/2010 - Page 26
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TwoToneTerran
United States8841 Posts
Though I personally thought JD was on his way to Bonjwahood until, well, Flash. Flash is on the cusp of dominating a season more than any player has ever come close to dominating. | ||
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Ideas
United States8174 Posts
On January 22 2010 10:59 TwoToneTerran wrote: Not really since he lost in PL and MSL. If Flash wins MSL then he's "won" PL, won OSL, and won MSL. Kind of a difference. :> Though I personally thought JD was on his way to Bonjwahood until, well, Flash. Flash is on the cusp of dominating a season more than any player has ever come close to dominating. JD dominated the scene from february to october. back to back OSLs, msl semifinal and single-handedly taking his team to the winners league and proleague finals. completely rivals (if not beats) flash's shorter run so far. | ||
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TwoToneTerran
United States8841 Posts
That said, Flash has also dominated PL, harder than anyone. Last season Jaedong did not dominate PL the hardest -- he was actually a little worse than Flash (1 more loss) and arguably worse than Bisu, who was one loss behind but with the undisputed best winrate. And I think you kind of forget that Oz still had ForGG and Anytime early on last proleague season -- Forgg up until the END of R3. Oz wasn't even a one man show in WL, as Hiya was the best person not named Bisu, Flash, or Jaedong. So no, Jaedong didn't "dominate" PL last season, he was just in the running for the best. Jaedong did not "dominate" starleagues because, well, over 10 months there happens to be six and, while it's no doubt incredibly impressive to win back to back OSLs, are you gonna say that's more impressive than a double title win with a straight face? man my Flash spiels are long winded. This one was just a hypothetical that hasn't happened yet. :o edit: holy shit I'm a muta now, sweet! I can beat Flash when he doesn't build turrets! | ||
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Ideas
United States8174 Posts
On January 22 2010 11:33 TwoToneTerran wrote: Well, assuming Flash wins the MSL, he's got 2 titles -- Jaedong comes out a little ahead I guess for making a semi finals but, be fair, that's 10 months -- 3 seasons of tournaments. Flash doesn't even have the CHANCE to get to another semifinals yet. But if you want to give Jaedong the edge here then sure. That said, Flash has also dominated PL, harder than anyone. Last season Jaedong did not dominate PL the hardest -- he was actually a little worse than Flash (1 more loss) and arguably worse than Bisu, who was one loss behind but with the undisputed best winrate. And I think you kind of forget that Oz still had ForGG and Anytime early on last proleague season -- Forgg up until the END of R3. Oz wasn't even a one man show in WL, as Hiya was the best person not named Bisu, Flash, or Jaedong. So no, Jaedong didn't "dominate" PL last season, he was just in the running for the best. Jaedong did not "dominate" starleagues because, well, over 10 months there happens to be six and, while it's no doubt incredibly impressive to win back to back OSLs, are you gonna say that's more impressive than a double title win with a straight face? man my Flash spiels are long winded. This one was just a hypothetical that hasn't happened yet. :o edit: holy shit I'm a muta now, sweet! I can beat Flash when he doesn't build turrets! anytime wasnt on Oz at all last season. I think we need to wait and see how flash does in the next 6-8 months. | ||
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Holgerius
Sweden16951 Posts
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Hinanawi
United States2250 Posts
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Captain Mayhem
Sweden774 Posts
The fact that most people still have doubts that he'll win the MSL as well, kindof makes Flash fail that requirement. For now... :D | ||
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Lebesgue
4542 Posts
On January 22 2010 12:55 Captain Mayhem wrote: I'm a Flash fanboy, but I too think it's a bit early to call him the B-word. As far as I've learned from this place, a Bonjwa is one who completely and utterly dominates everyone without a doubt in noones mind that he'd ever get close to losing the game. The fact that most people still have doubts that he'll win the MSL as well, kindof makes Flash fail that requirement. For now... :D If he wins noone will doubt him anymore... To be honest, I haven't witnessed such a domination from any player. There is a reason why he was the first one to break 2400. But he has to win against Jaedong. | ||
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TwoToneTerran
United States8841 Posts
well... There's Stork! | ||
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Djabanete
United States2786 Posts
Leta is a proleague monster, but he underperforms in individual leagues, which was never a problem for firebathero. FBH sometimes got very far in individual leagues by demolishing T's and Z's (*cough*, Savior) before losing to the first competent P he ran into --- whereas Leta seems to lose to, well, anybody. I guess Leta is ahead of FBH in the proleague, but I've always had more respect for players who could put up a decent showing in a Bo5. Maybe Leta will get there. | ||
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Djabanete
United States2786 Posts
On January 22 2010 09:33 ZZangDreamjOy wrote: :S. I'm 100% sure all the progamers think FlaSh is one of the greatest, but THE greatest? There are a few gamers right now that are comparable in skill. A few? Name the ones besides Jaedong. Edit: I'll just say it here so I don't triple post --- even if Flash DOES win the MSL, his name still doesn't go with Boxer, Oov, Nada, and Savior. His name will be up there with Jaedong and Bisu (who come next in the "pantheon" of starcraft), but he's not a bonjwa until he bags another few golds and continues to set the curve for a while longer. | ||
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TwoToneTerran
United States8841 Posts
On January 22 2010 13:43 Djabanete wrote: Leta is a proleague monster, but he underperforms in individual leagues, which was never a problem for firebathero. FBH sometimes got very far in individual leagues by demolishing T's and Z's (*cough*, Savior) before losing to the first competent P he ran into --- whereas Leta seems to lose to, well, anybody. I guess Leta is ahead of FBH in the proleague, but I've always had more respect for players who could put up a decent showing in a Bo5. Maybe Leta will get there. No, uh, Leta's made the semifinals a couple times now, which is as far as FBH ever made it. FBH is honestly no more successful in individual leagues than Leta -- atleast nothing significant. Leta is honestly playing like FBH -- baaad TvP, great TvT, off and on, sometimes brilliant sometimes rubbish TvZ. The only differnce is Leta does weird things more often I guess (though FBH is king of BCs) | ||
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Djabanete
United States2786 Posts
On January 22 2010 13:55 TwoToneTerran wrote: No, uh, Leta's made the semifinals a couple times now, which is as far as FBH ever made it. FBH is honestly no more successful in individual leagues than Leta -- atleast nothing significant. Leta is honestly playing like FBH -- baaad TvP, great TvT, off and on, sometimes brilliant sometimes rubbish TvZ. The only differnce is Leta does weird things more often I guess (though FBH is king of BCs) Wait, really? A couple times? I didn't realize that Leta had made semifinals before --- the best I remember him doing is quarterfinals, in that ridiculous series against Luxury. It was largely based on that recollection that I wrote what I did. Leta lost to an erratically-performing Luxury --- and he would have rolled over and died against Jaedong --- while FBH beat Savior, who at the time was still the best Zerg in the world by a mile and an absolute beast in ZvT. If I'm misremembering and Leta really has made semifinals, I take back what I said about him sucking in individual leagues. | ||
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Rostam
United States2552 Posts
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Djabanete
United States2786 Posts
On January 22 2010 12:55 Captain Mayhem wrote: I'm a Flash fanboy, but I too think it's a bit early to call him the B-word. As far as I've learned from this place, a Bonjwa is one who completely and utterly dominates everyone without a doubt in noones mind that he'd ever get close to losing the game. Actually, the bonjwas had win rates no better than Flash's over long periods, and performances no better than Flash's this season. Some had weak matchups, too, like Boxer's TvP (his golden mouse was denied three times by Protoss) and Savior's ZvZ. It's just that they were each undisputed #1's for much longer than a season, and each had at least 4 golds. (Well, Boxer is the exception, but back when WCG's used to count for something, he won two of them.) Still, I think people's nostalgia gets the better of them sometimes --- remember Savior's 1 OSL? Who do you think was winning all of those OSL's while Savior was dominant? Being a bonjwa doesn't mean that you have to win everything, just that you keep winning and winning. If Jaedong wins this MSL, I think he'd be a better candidate than Flash would be if he won it, for that very reason. Edit in response to TTT below: Yeah, can you imagine Leta taking out Jaedong in a Bo5? That would be equivalent to what FBH did, but in the current time frame. Even though that's basically all FBH ever did in an individual league, I still have to respect him just for that. His TvZ really used to be something else. | ||
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TwoToneTerran
United States8841 Posts
edit -- edit again -- dur yeah FBH kicked Savior out of MSl once to get to semifinals so I guess he has a slightly better record than Leta, but not by much and he has been "relevant" since, well, savior was a good player. | ||
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Ideas
United States8174 Posts
On January 22 2010 14:15 Djabanete wrote: Actually, the bonjwas had win rates no better than Flash's over long periods, and performances no better than Flash's this season. Some had weak matchups, too, like Boxer's TvP (his golden mouse was denied three times by Protoss) and Savior's ZvZ. It's just that they were each undisputed #1's for much longer than a season, and each had at least 4 golds. (Well, Boxer is the exception, but back when WCG's used to count for something, he won two of them.) Still, I think people's nostalgia gets the better of them sometimes --- remember Savior's 1 OSL? Who do you think was winning all of those OSL's while Savior was dominant? Being a bonjwa doesn't mean that you have to win everything, just that you keep winning and winning. If Jaedong wins this MSL, I think he'd be a better candidate than Flash would be if he won it, for that very reason. Edit in response to TTT below: Yeah, can you imagine Leta taking out Jaedong in a Bo5? That would be equivalent to what FBH did, but in the current time frame. Even though that's basically all FBH ever did in an individual league, I still have to respect him just for that. His TvZ really used to be something else. his quarterfinal run in the clubday MSL was pretty good too, especially with good TvP wins over Bisu and Much. FUCK I miss FBH being good  | ||
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Oystein
Norway1602 Posts
On January 22 2010 14:52 Ideas wrote: his quarterfinal run in the clubday MSL was pretty good too, especially with good TvP wins over Bisu and Much. FUCK I miss FBH being good His TvP was terrible then also, as showed when he got 3-0ed by Bisu once he did not get a big BO advantage (he 2facted vs 1gate expo and killed a million probes with his vultures, and still the game ended up being close late game in the game he won during group stages). His win vs Much was also mainly from bunkerrushing his 12nex and killing lots of probes and the nexus iirc getting into a game deciding advantage. He had those 2 wins and 2 wins vs a lackluster Tempest before he went back into losing most TvPs (Or he did not really go back since he never showed anything impressive in those games despite everyone getting their expectations up on him when it was basically 2 BO advantages and beating a rather bad player, tho I agree he did play pretty well for him at least in those games) Actually it is kinda weird that he is so bad at TvP since he do have the mechanics for it, its just that his decision making is so god awful. One would think that having Stork\Jangbi helping you out with the matchup would really help, or maybe that is the problem that hes never able to win in practice :p That being said he was an absolute beast in TvZ and TvT during that time (or from 06-08), especially his TvZ was sick as he was constantly moving around with several armies applying pressure everywhere. He had some sick sick multitasking in that matchup. If he had been lucky with draws and avoided tosses in the BO stages of the Starleagues he could easily have had a Starleague under his belt now since he was basically Casy Jr. At least he was way more likely to win a SL then, than Leta is now. (Of course if he gets himself a Jangbiesque road he could win one, but even then I would be surprised) | ||
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Severedevil
United States4839 Posts
On January 22 2010 10:23 Ideas wrote: If flash is a bonjwa if he wins MSL then JD was a bonjwa right before flash's tear. | ||
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Ota Solgryn
Denmark2011 Posts
On January 22 2010 11:07 Ideas wrote: JD dominated the scene from february to october. back to back OSLs, msl semifinal and single-handedly taking his team to the winners league and proleague finals. completely rivals (if not beats) flash's shorter run so far. | ||
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