This document lists the new units and abilities in the MLG Spring Championship preview build of StarCraft® II: Heart of the Swarm™. Please keep in mind that Heart of the Swarm is still in development, and all of the units and abilities you see described below are subject to change. It's even possible that some of these units and abilities will be discarded and new ones will be created to replace them as we continue to iterate on the game design. What we've listed below is just a snapshot of where we currently stand on multiplayer Heart of the Swarm.
Protoss
Upon analyzing data from their most recent battles, the protoss have identified a few areas of improvement that would help them maximize effectiveness against their enemies. Based on their findings, the protoss have augmented their arsenal with an extremely long-range attacker, additional psionic units, and a new form of enemy harassment.
Tempest
Description: The tempest is a new capital ship that can fire at both ground and air targets from long range, doing additional damage to massive units. A further range upgrade can be researched to give the Tempest the ability to fire from incredible distances.
Note: Starts at range 10, increases to 22 range with upgrade (compared to 13 for siege tanks). Said to have relatively low DPS to balance it out.
Oracle
Description: The Oracle is a psionic warship, built from a Stargate, that uses several unique abilities to raid and harass the enemy. The first is Entomb, which can temporarily block mineral fields from being harvested. Another ability, Preordain, grants detection and vision around a targeted building, allowing the protoss to see which units or technologies are being researched. Rounding out its kit is Cloak Field, which temporarily cloaks everything around the Oracle.
Note: The cloaking has a mana cost and is temporary. It isn't a permanent passive like the mothership. Preordain has a 30 sec duration in this build, but it's been tweaked a lot.
Mothership Core
Description: The Mothership Core is unique in more ways than one. Only a single one can exist in your army at once and it's also immobile, attaching itself to a nexus. There are four abilities available from the Mothership Core. Teleport allows you to move the Mothership Core to any of your other nexuses. Energize tops off the energy stores of any target unit or structure. Purify is a defensive ability that temporarily grants the Mothership Core a powerful, long range attack. Finally, Mass Recall allows players to quickly recall units back to the Mothership Core.
Mothership
Description: It's not really a new unit in Heart of the Swarm, but the Mothership abilities are slightly different from Wings of Liberty. The passive cloaking field is gone, with the cloak now available as an activated ability on the Oracle. The Mothership retains its Recall ability, and the Vortex spell from Wings of Liberty now affects ground units only. A new ability called Stasis is available, which puts the mothership and all air units around it into stasis for about 20 seconds. The Mothership is now created by upgrading the Mothership Core after a Fleet Beacon is constructed.
**In the current multiplayer build of Heart of the Swarm, the Protoss are not able to deploy Carriers. However, we have not yet made a final determination on the Carrier's status..
Terran
The resourceful terrans have also been improving their technology to better survive their battles in the Koprulu sector.
Widow Mine
Description: The Widow Mine is a new suicide unit built from the Factory that allows the terran player to control areas of the battlefield. The Widow Mine moves into position and sets to stationary mode, which burrows and activates it. When an enemy air or ground unit moves into range, the Widow Mine briefly flashes before moving and attaching itself to that unit. After several seconds, the mine detonates, dealing 200 damage to the unit and a smaller amount of damage to units in the surrounding area.
Note: Dustin Browder expects that with practice, pro-level players will almost always be able to remove the mined units away from the rest of their unit cluster.
Warhound
Description: The Warhound is a walking ground mech that is specialized as an anti-mechanical weapon. Smaller and more nimble than a Thor, the Warhound has a standard weapon to hit ground. Its true strength is an additional ability that fires powerful missiles at ground-based mechanical units, making it particularly well suited to taking out enemy siege lines and many protoss ground units.
Note: anti-mech missiles auto-launch at mechanical units independent of the warhound's normal attack.
New Abilities
The Hellion has been upgraded to a transforming unit similar to the Viking. When constructed from the factory, the Hellion spawns in its new battle mode, which gives it additional hit points and a stronger flame attack that covers a short forward-facing arc. This makes the Hellion more effective in late-game fights against large clusters of light units such as Zealots. The player can opt to transform the Hellion into its original, more mobile form as well.
In Heart of the Swarm, the Battlecruiser gains a cooldown-based speed-boost ability called Redline Reactor. Finally, the Reaper no longer has a special building attack. Instead, it gains a passive health-regeneration upgrade that allows it to recharge hit points quickly when out of combat.
Zerg
The zerg continue to evolve and adapt to changing environments, particularly the dangers they face on the battlefield. New creatures will help the zerg stage more effective sieges and add unique enemy-manipulating abilities to their arsenal.
Viper
Description: The Viper is a new flying unit with three unique abilities. Blinding Cloud temporarily reduces the attack range of biological ground units inside the cloud to melee range. Abduct allows the Viper to physically pull a unit to the Viper’s location. Finally, the Viper can use Consume, a channeled ability that allows it to gain some energy back at the expense of damage to your own zerg building.
Swarm Host
Description: The Swarm Host is a slow-moving ground unit that has no standard attack. When burrowed, the Swarm Host spawns a continuous stream of slow-moving units called Locusts that can be used to lay siege and pressure entrenched enemy positions.
New Abilities
Ultralisks have a new Burrow Charge skill that lets them dive underground and quickly surface at a target, allowing them to initiate the fight faster on a crowded battlefield. However, its "frenzy" passive from Wings of Liberty has been removed, meaning the Ultralisk can now be snared by abilities like Fungal Growth. The Overseer has been retained from Wings of Liberty, and changelings can now be spawned from siege range. Finally, the Hydralisk has a new upgrade that allows them to move faster while not on creep.
Official Q&A
Q: What is StarCraft® II: Heart of the Swarm™?
A: Heart of the Swarm™ is the first expansion set to Blizzard Entertainment's sci-fi real time strategy game StarCraft® II: Wings of Liberty™. Heart of the Swarm continues the epic story from Wings of Liberty with an all-new campaign that focuses on Sarah Kerrigan, the former Queen of Blades. New multiplayer units and maps will also be included in the expansion, as well as new features and upgrades to the Battle.net® online platform.
Q: What features can we expect from the single-player campaign of Heart of the Swarm?
A: Heart of the Swarm's campaign will include 20 new missions. Players will be able to evolve their swarms with unique, campaign-only units and abilities, and this evolution will happen in an organic manner befitting of the expansion's zerg theme. As an example, zerglings can evolve into specialized sub-species of zerglings such as the swarmling, a variant that spawns three swarmlings per larva at an almost instantaneous rate instead of the standard two zerglings. The fearsome raptor is another evolutionary offshoot of the zergling that has more health and the ability to leap short distances to quickly close the gap on an enemy.
Another aspect of Heart of the Swarm that sets it apart from Wings of Liberty is that Kerrigan will play a major role in each of the battles as a powerful hero. Over the course of the campaign she gains in strength as well as new capabilities. Players will choose what abilities to enhance and powers to use from mission to mission.
Heart of the Swarm will also include a wider variety of locations, or sets, for players to explore between missions. These sets change dynamically as players complete missions, giving players a sense of an evolving world as Kerrigan makes her presence felt throughout the galaxy. Fully voiced cut scenes will round out the cinematic gaming experience in Heart of the Swarm's campaign, while a new array of achievements will unlock in-game rewards such as portraits and decals.
Q: Will there be any technical upgrades to the graphics engine?
A: We'll be making some improvements to the graphics, including upgrades to the look and behavior of zerg creep, as well as some changes that allow our artists to better showcase the new types of planets that Kerrigan will explore in Heart of the Swarm. We still plan to keep the minimum hardware requirements the same for this expansion set as they were in Wings of Liberty.
Q: What approach is the development team taking toward multiplayer in Heart of the Swarm?
A: We're very pleased with the state of multiplayer in Wings of Liberty. Over the past year, the metagame has evolved as players are continuously developing new strategies and counters, while we've tried to make measured changes to game balance through patches. However, we recognize that there are still areas for improvement. Heart of the Swarm gives us an opportunity to address some of those needs through new units and abilities, which we're typically not willing to make outside of an expansion as they can have a serious effect on current tournaments.
With Heart of the Swarm, we've tried to locate the needs of each race and address them with new units and abilities. We're also trying to maintain -- and if possible, enhance -- the uniqueness of each race. The goal with everything we create for multiplayer Heart of the Swarm is to add new dimensions of strategy and gameplay to StarCraft, while maintaining balance and avoiding redundancy with existing units.
Q: What are some examples of new units, abilities, and game mechanics in multiplayer Heart of the Swarm?
A: First, it's important to note that units and abilities are still very much subject to change. What we're currently showing only represents a snapshot of where multiplayer Heart of the Swarm currently stands, and these are just a few examples of the new units and abilities coming in Heart of the Swarm.
For the zerg, the new Swarm Host will serve as a ground-based siege unit. When burrowed, the Swarm Host will spawn melee units that slowly move in a stream toward enemy units or structures. This will allow the zerg to apply pressure on entrenched enemy positions. We're also testing a new ability for the Ultralisk, called Burrow Charge, which will allow them to more easily get into the fight on a crowded battlefield. This activated ability will allow an Ultralisk to dive underground, quickly advance underneath units, and pop back up to attack enemies.
The protoss will field an interesting new unit called the Oracle. This unit is a psionic warship, built from a Stargate, that uses unique abilities to raid and harass the enemy. The first is Entomb, which can temporarily block mineral fields from being harvested. Another ability, Preordain, grants detection and vision around a targeted building, allowing the protoss to see which units or technologies are being researched. The tempest is a new capital ship that can fire at both ground and air targets from long range, doing additional damage to massive units. A further range upgrade can be researched to give the Tempest the ability to fire from incredible distances.
The terrans will have some new tricks as well. The Hellion will be given a new ability to transform into a walking battle mech. In this alternate form, Hellions will move slower, but gain health and deal higher damage in a shorter spray of flame. Battlecruisers will get a short cooldown-based speed-boost ability (Redline Reactor). This speed boost will help with positioning these terran capital ships and engaging in late-game battles. The Warhound has also been introduced: an anti-vehicle mech unit.
We're also testing a new gameplay mechanic for maps: destructible rock pillars that can create a blockade at a choke point. This mechanic will allow players to close off pathways, block themselves into expansion bases, or protect scouts holding position on an elevated Xel'Naga watch tower.
Q: What changes will come to Battle.net with Heart of the Swarm?
A: We're already beta testing Arcade, which upgrades our custom map functionality on Battle.net. The mapmaking and modding community around StarCraft II has published tens of thousands of custom maps using the StarCraft II editor. The Arcade allows us to better showcase this wide variety of great new maps and mods to players who are looking for fun new gaming experiences. We want players to be able to more easily find, rate, and sort through all the great custom maps that have been created.
For map creators, we're adding even more tools for them to create compelling custom games. These tools will include a cinematics editor for players to create their own cut scenes, and a 3D model importing tool which will allow artists to bring their own models into the game for use in custom maps. These are just a couple of the improvements and new features we're developing to better support the mapmaking and machinima community in their quest to create fun and compelling content.
Other features we have planned for around the time of launch include a groups and clans system; multilanguage support; Global Play, to allow players to play on different regional servers; and unranked matchmaking, so players can try playing different races or test new strategies without impacting their ladder ranking. Multiplayer replay viewing and the ability to resume a multiplayer game from replay will also be included. We'll have more details on these and other Battle.net updates at a later date.
Q: Will Heart of the Swarm require players to own Wings of Liberty?
A: For the regions that have a standard box business model such as North America and Europe, yes, StarCraft II: Wings of Liberty will be required in order to play the Heart of the Swarm expansion. For other regions that have alternative access models, we’ll provide details at a later date.
Q: How much will Heart of the Swarm cost?
A: We typically don't provide details about pricing until the game is closer to release. We do view Heart of the Swarm as an expansion set, so for the regions that have a standard box business model such as North America and Europe, we will price accordingly. For other regions that have alternative business models, we’ll provide details at a later date.
Q: Will there be a console version of Heart of the Swarm?
A: StarCraft II: Heart of the Swarm is being developed for Windows and Mac. We currently have no plans to bring StarCraft II to any console platform.
Q: When is Heart of the Swarm coming out?
A: It's too early to talk about a specific release date at this point in time. As with all Blizzard games, our ultimate goal is to provide the best possible experience for our players, and we will take as much time as is needed to ensure that Heart of the Swarm meets the expectations of our players, as well as our own high standards.
Q: Will there be a beta test? When will it start?
A: Yes, we do intend to run a beta test for Heart of the Swarm multiplayer, and we expect it to start sometime in the summer of 2012.
I really like almost everything I just read, with the exception of maybe the mothership core (seems silly) and widow mine (hits air units??). I'm really pumped for HotS now though!
I'm so, so very sad they're changing vortex. I hope that gets reverted back eventually. How can Blizzard possibly deny us things like that epic MVP vs Squirtle Archon toilet?
Consume deals damage to your buildings? I much prefer the Brood War "consume your own UNITS" ideology better, but this is still better than consuming mineral patches.
They're giving the protoss extreme mobility when the only counter to late game protoss is a unit composition with extreme immobility in late-game zvp. Aswell as this they're also giving the protoss a one-unit counter to the late game, with TWENTYTWO (??????) range. I don't understand how they can give protoss late game extreme mobility aswell as a power unit which directly counters the only counter to late-game protoss anyway.
All this information on the new units makes me so giddy. It's quite a clear improvement from the first HotS multiplayer press release. It will really pump up the strategies in games I feel, with all these new spell casters and mech units. I can't wait to see mech used more often.
Wonder if the Widow Mine would be as effective if your opponent simply sends one unit in first, and separate from the main army....will the mine redeploy in the ground if the effected unit dies before detonation?
hmmm like it more than the originally proposed units but I still think that they should keep the carrier over the tempest (purely for how cool they are not anything to do with balance)
I think every change theyve made from the original previews are good ones honestly. Especially excited that they decided to keep many of the to-be-axed units like mothership and overseer, and theyre at least thinking about keeping the Carrier
Lots of the new units also look like they'll demand control and positioning to be effective, which is really nice. Game doesn't need any more 1-A units
On June 09 2012 06:35 Nightmarishpie wrote: No burrow move for Banelings? I can't complain though, looks awesome!
they didn't mention whether these are all the new features in HOTS. They may not have removed their previously mentioned uprgrades. Although burrowed baneling movement did seem a little ridiculous.
However, after watching the first battle report, I have to say that I REALLY love the vipers. The wings and animations make them feel so zerg-y. So great.
On June 09 2012 06:36 MSwiLD wrote: Wow, I LOVE how they fixed up the mothership instead of deleting it. No more stupid archon toilets, but the unit is still there and still powerful!
Sorry to burst your bubble, bro, but the core can turn into the mothership still. And that mothership can use vortex. L
So basicly terran gets the warhound, a unit that is not really a micro unit. What about making more micro units, blizzard? Marines vs banelings for example is fun to watch.
Is it me or there are a lot of stuff coming from broodwar ? Mines, dark swarm, lurkers, arbiter. Well it's not exactly the same units but they do seem to work the same, it might help bw players :D
And i really like the health regen for reapers, i'm eager to see the new uses for them.
On June 09 2012 06:36 MSwiLD wrote: Wow, I LOVE how they fixed up the mothership instead of deleting it. No more stupid archon toilets, but the unit is still there and still powerful!
Sorry to burst your bubble, bro, but the core can turn into the mothership still. And that mothership can use vortex. L
But only against ground. Which makes it useless against broodlords and Battlecruisers, the two units you really, REALLY want to be able to Archon toilet.
I'm seeing the potential for T to be way underpowered with the sick new P and Z units lol. We'll have to reserve judgment until we've played it though.
On June 09 2012 06:31 GuitarBizarre wrote: I'm so, so very sad they're changing vortex. I hope that gets reverted back eventually. How can Blizzard possibly deny us things like that epic MVP vs Squirtle Archon toilet?
I think that game would be equally epic with mothership core, oracles, redline reactor, widow mines and tempests :D
The Protoss stuff sounds really bad, some weird gimmicky unbalancable things again. They should fix the core of the race first and after that add fancy options. Terran things sound decent. Don't know what to think of the Zerg stuff, have to see them in action first.
If I understand this correctly, the new terran mines are basically a suicide version of terror drones from Red Alert 2? Dustin Bowder you sneaky bastard - trying to sneak in cool things from your past projects :D - this is so awesome. I really like it!
On June 09 2012 06:49 Nyarly wrote: Is it me or there are a lot of stuff coming from broodwar ? Mines, dark swarm, lurkers, arbiter. Well it's not exactly the same units but they do seem to work the same, it might help bw players :D
And i really like the health regen for reapers, i'm eager to see the new uses for them.
It has nothing to do with dark swarm, it's more like a worse disruption web, and thoes are not really close to lurker either. Mine mechanic seems strange, but hard to say out of the blue, and mothership still sounds completely stupid honestly.
Awesome changes. I may have to start playing protoss again! If they "fix" the carrier and keep it as a unit, I can see myself switching back for sure.
Summer 2012 beta has me psyched. Hope I get in :D Original sc2 beta was so fun. I really enjoy playing when there are huge sweeping changes being made often.
Protoss gets an extra teleport? At the moment I'm seriously considering buying Brood-War instead and saving 15 bucks for the same game without protoss being able to be out of position for drops and such without it hurting them. Warp-in's or recall, whatever happens you'll know catching a protoss of guard will become harder and harder TT
Note: When I say same game I am of course meaning all "BW-like" units that have found their way into HotS (Warhound, Viper etc..)
i'm glad they aren't removing the mothership actually. it isn't going to be as powerful since they remove the cloak and give it to the oracle. i think this may be a better expansion than i thought with what they have changed so far; imo anyway. i like the new zerg units and the charge ability that ultras will have. and now hellions will actually be viable late game against protoss. and who knows..... maybe even reapers! i'm excited : )
On June 09 2012 06:45 Snowbear wrote: So basicly terran gets the warhound, a unit that is not really a micro unit. What about making more micro units, blizzard? Marines vs banelings for example is fun to watch.
Battlecruiser speed boost cooldown ability, there's your micro unit. Have fun with your micro. Your welcome. --Blizzard.
I don't see the widow mine being used much at higher skill levels if it has a cost and build time. Sounds like an even less useful version of seeker missile.
Still don't like many of the introduced abilities (abduct, burrow charge ultralisk) or the "hero units" which doesn't feel like Starcraft at all to me.
What happened to the Warhounds anti-air attack? Blizz, just bring the Goliath back please.
With the mothership staying in, does anyone know the news on HotS Thor? Will the uber unit still be available to terran, or has that idea been trashed?
I agree on the global 'don't change terran too much cos they're too adaptable already' thing but damn they could have thought some more stylish units out, those are ugly as shit.
P.S : Oh and the tempest is horribly unesthetic too
On June 09 2012 06:31 ddrddrddrddr wrote: Free spawn every 45 seconds? What?
I'm just wondering how that will work. Like, can we walk around while we wait those 45 seconds?(which really is a long time in game time.) Because then there could be some cool weird zerg defenses where you just burrow your swarm hosts, spawn, then retreat and wait for the cooldown. If you have to stay in the ground during the 45 secs, it has become less cool.
The tempest sounds like so much fun to me. 22 range? mwahahahahahaahahaahahahaha. Tempest rush ALL the games. Oracle seems like there could be some cool harass with oracle into cloak oracle and a ton of blink stalkers, blink in while invisible, kill hatchery, blink out. Mothership seems cool as well.
Everyone theorycrafting balance, put a cork in it. One week after release of HOTS you might have something legitimate to say, which might even then be solvable with the new units. So, just be cool with it, and laugh at how similar some of the untis are to BW
Range 22? Did I read that correctly? My new favourite base sniper. Completely safe from marines, recallable. Bonus vs. buildings. Hell, that's way out of building site range.
On June 09 2012 07:04 whoopadeedoo wrote: I am seriously confused how Toss is suppose to deal with broodlords/infestors in HoTS.
Range 22 bonus vs. massive. Not worried about BLs.
Reaper is still worthless, since the regeneration is an upgrade.
Don't get the splitting of the mothership into the mothership core/motherships. Doesn't make sense to me.
The tempest sounds absurd, with 22 range. It makes it better then a siege tank since it doesn't have to deploy, and sounds like it could be used for harassment, floating off near the map boundrays.
On June 09 2012 06:45 Snowbear wrote: So basicly terran gets the warhound, a unit that is not really a micro unit. What about making more micro units, blizzard? Marines vs banelings for example is fun to watch.
My thoughts exactly, i'm tired of so many anti-micro, A move, spell based units.
Anybody actually notice that it is the end of the ARchon toilet? Vortex will only work on land unit.... This may be bad for protoss in the late game against zerg.
I would be curious if the oracle will be an important part of the protoss arsenal for mid to late game, due to its cloaking field.
Finally, it is the return of the spider mine (although it is very different from the BW version, it does the same purpose)
On June 09 2012 07:02 Fairchild wrote: Are any other Zergs completely disappointed by this?
Yes, I was really looking forward to burrowed banelings. I think we'll have to wait and see how the hydra speed works and exactly what the viper can be used for. If some of the posts in this thread are true and blinding cloud only affects bio then zerg are about to be in a world of hurt against toss I would imagine.
Khaldor just confirmed for me on twitter that Warhogs do not have an Anti-Air attack. Therefore except for the new widow mines mech has no Anti-Air units if the thor was removed. Mech players would now be forced to supplement their forces with marines or vikings against air threats.
Finally, the Reaper no longer has a special building attack. Instead, it gains a passive health-regeneration upgrade that allows it to recharge hit points quickly when out of combat.
Nice try, Blizzard but I don't think anyone is buying that this will make anyone think twice about building the Reaper...
Can anyone comprehend why Protoss needs the Mothership Core?
I can kinda see a purpose for some defense advantage in PvP. But isn't Protoss already the most forgiving race? (Shields, strong units etc.)
And then on top of that Mass Recall? I just don't see why Protoss would the race that needs another mechanism that is completely "wooopsy, just herp derped my army into a shitty spot, better herp derp outta here".
Also, Terrans units look SOOOO bad. Haha those mines are so incredibly bad. It's funny how Terran has strong Marines, so subsequently every single other unit has to be weird or bad. The mine can go to the corner of Seeker Missile and Nuke... the bad, completely avoidable, expensive AoE corner.
Twitter: Khaldor: Since I was asked: Warhounds don't have anti_air anymore Twitter: Khaldor: Widow Mines are 75/25 and available at the factory right away. Also benefit from a reactor
22 range on the Tempest? Who decided that Protoss were the artillery masters? That's a Terran thing, *cough*.
No tank changes? Herm. Like the stuff mostly, though. Swarm host is awesome, Widow Mine is awesome(sounding), but the Warhound now only attacks ground? It's becoming more and more an upgrade marauder. I can see how it'd be helpful in countering mech in TvT. Though I suppose if the new battle hellion works against zealots as well as Blizz is saying it will, a mechanical marauder would synergize better with upgrades and whatnot.
I'm loving these changes. The Viper, Widow Mine and new Hellion sound awesome, I really hope Blizzard keeps those as they are no matter what. Oracle, new Mothership and Swarm Host sound cool, but I wouldn't get depressed if they got cut. Warhound and Tempest are more meh to me, we'll have to see how they work out in practice.
On June 09 2012 07:15 Snowbear wrote: Twitter: Khaldor: Since I was asked: Warhounds don't have anti_air anymore Twitter: Khaldor: Widow Mines are 75/25 and available at the factory right away. Also benefit from a reactor
Don't like the tempest; seems like collosus but *more* boring if that's possible.
Protoss builds collosus/tempest Zerg/Terran doesn't have corruptors/vikings Game ends
or
Protoss builds collosus/tempest Zerg/Terran has corruptors/vikings Game continues.
Also, 2 recalls? + planetary fortress meets shield generator that can teleport away when in trouble?? I don't get why they are buffing protoss lategame so much, it's really not their weak point at all.
I'm actually rather sad that HOTS is no longer standalone ;c I was looking forward to having my girlfriend and I both pick up a copy to play, since she only has ever got to play WOL through my account :c Now she has to purchase WOL in order to play HOTS, damn. I hope there is some other option because I do understand that is how expansions work but this is 2012 and other options should exist haha
Besides that, all changes look good, I very much like the teleport ability of the mothership to other Nexi, very nice.
On June 09 2012 07:18 BashfulBen wrote: As a protoss I gotta say, if we can top up our chrono boost energy with the moship core, seems a bit crazy powerful :/
Not really, the mothership core only should exist lategame right? That will probably mean late game situations, where most players have crono energy lying around doing nothing.... it should be fine haha, would be possibly useful but not OP. Mostly looking forward to Mass Stormmm~~
I can see it now, korean casters...... TOP UPPPPPP TOP UPPPPPPPPP REAVER REAVER REAVER REAVER~
Welp, it all sounds very interesting. Dunno how much more you can really say until there's a beta out to tinker with. At least some of the really awful ideas from Blizzcon seem like they've been weeded out, and retooling the Tempest into some sort of long range siege-ish unit is cool, though why they don't just, um, do that to the carrier is a mystery to me...
22 range? Is that real? That's like 1 and a half screens. There's gonna situations where there's an observer in a base, and tempests are just going to sit outside and kill command centers or hatcheries. That's got to be a mistake.
Can anyone confirm if the oracle can detect cloaked units as well? If not I would be pretty disappointed because it might be the only new useful thing Protoss gets
What they have done to Terrans? Transformers? Anime like robots? WTF?! I am so disappointment. Protoss and Zergs look great, but Terrans looks awfully. Blizzard have no good idea for this race. Terran units looks like in the C&C.
On June 09 2012 07:23 mbr2321 wrote: 22 range? Is that real? That's like 1 and a half screens. There's gonna situations where there's an observer in a base, and tempests are just going to sit outside and kill command centers or hatcheries. That's got to be a mistake.
Ya i agree theres no way that they are gonna let it sit with 22 range thats just freaking ridiculous.
"Mothership vortex affects only ground units" ......seriously? You see it's being used to deal with brood lords not ground units...
Anyways, hoping for ZvP metagames to change anyway. Those units are very interesting and what's more important, add sooooooo much more micro to the game. Can't wait.
Why do you hate terran so much blizzard? All the nerfs, and now you give us the shittiest units. And what's up with the ultralisk upgrade, it's hard to deal with ultras as it is.
Lol at 22 range DPS better be really small, otherwise it's retarded xD I mean a decent attack at 22 range would force any other army to move out and engage in the protoss terms, or just sit and take damage from somewhere you can't even see.
I like all of the changes, the creep looks awsome, but oh god, the warhound still looks retarded, and the tempest is itself retarded, 22 range? 5-6 of them can oneshot anything :\
On June 09 2012 07:12 Dyme wrote: Can anyone comprehend why Protoss needs the Mothership Core?
I can kinda see a purpose for some defense advantage in PvP. But isn't Protoss already the most forgiving race? (Shields, strong units etc.)
No, that would be Zerg. You can throw away endless amounts of roaches and still be completely fine with a slightly smaller bank. If you're Protoss and miss 1 force field, you lose a game no matter how much better you played previous to it.
I mean WoL had its problems, but at least it was still Starcraft, and it kind of looked, played and felt like Starcraft. This, on the other hand... almost all of the new stuff is borderline lunatic.
On June 09 2012 07:25 An2quamaraN wrote: "Mothership vortex affects only ground units" ......seriously? You see it's being used to deal with brood lords not ground units...
Anyways, hoping for ZvP metagames to change anyway. Those units are very interesting and what's more important, add sooooooo much more micro to the game. Can't wait.
Exactly, they're removing the archon toilet, and replacing it with the vortex ability, which is : remove from battle a big chunk of your enemy's army and put them back X seconds later.
It's just used to remove DPS or help getting a good position in a battle.
I am not worried about the 22 range ship, if the game released with that, it would ruin the game. I am not even going to worry about that because it has no chance of getting in.
The warhound is the best part of this thing. It totally changes TvT and TvP. TvT has many more options now, and TvP maybe we can stand up to the toss army, at least a little bit now.
TvZ.... I am not sure what we can do here. T is already losing at an incredible rate to Z, and these units actually make that worse. Z is getting an air unit to basically nullify vikings, and the ultra is getting better. Maybe the spider mine will be so good that we win before 10 minutes everygame.
On June 09 2012 06:34 Jecktor wrote: Does anyone know if the thor is still in this build?
I think its being replaced by the warhound.
And those widow mines...are they deployed from a unit or do the walk around on their own?
Deployed on their own from the factory straight up, also helped out by reactors. 75/25 I think they said?
Plus: I would think it would be really cool if Archon received some sort of buff :3 Not they I'm saying they are bad or anything, they are great units, but I feel like they have some creativity to the design! Like for example, if a High Temp and High Temp merge, what about an overcharge ability like Beta? Or High and Dark gives a passive chain lighting attack, and a Dark and Dark grants them cool down invincibility or blink or some kind. All these extra spells can be activated from one 200/200 upgrade from the Templar building or something, or maybe even two separate upgrades! So then really it gives you different tech paths etc.
Okay I've said too much but come on :3 Archon can be played around with so awesomely.
This is sad... i actually HATE most of these changes... not just disappointed, but full on hate.
22 range??? so now protoss can destroy bases from their base. It exaggerate, but just a bit. It will give protoss the ability to totally decide when and where a battle takes place. The idea of trying to balance this thing is absurd.
Battle hellions.... retarded excuse for more transformers..... no players are complaining about the regular hellions ability to face down zealots. We want more micro, not less. Give the players what they really want: Firebats, both for nastalgia, and to act as a buffer for bio armies.
The ultralisk burrow.... why? just why? Its a fine ability, but ridiculous to look at. Why not just give them a ram/charge? Its already been done in custom games (i.e. hero attack) and is far better aesthetically. Ram + Frenzy >>> burrow attack
The warhound looks like its model was cleaned up a bit from the last look, but its still not pretty. but other then that my rage is over. Its sad that the only unit i really like out of this is the Viper.
EDIT: also, for the love of all that is good, keep the carrier. It not being used means it needs a buff, not to be removed (see immortal)
On June 09 2012 07:31 Talin wrote: I... don't even know what to say.
I mean WoL had its problems, but at least it was still Starcraft, and it kind of looked, played and felt like Starcraft. This, on the other hand... almost all of the new stuff is borderline lunatic.
Hah reading some of these units and abilities I was thinking "finally a C&C game not published by EA!"
On June 09 2012 07:05 caradoc wrote: Range 22? Did I read that correctly? My new favourite base sniper. Completely safe from marines, recallable. Bonus vs. buildings. Hell, that's way out of building site range.
The effectiveness of vortex on BLs is that it takes out a big group of them at a time. If you're just chipping away the BL fleet one at a time, BLs are still going to be very devastating. But this all depends on the final stats on the Tempest. How low is its "low dps?" How fast does it move (can it kite corrupters)? How slow does it build (reactively building a fleet of tempest to deal with a fleet of BLs is a serious concern). etc.
On June 09 2012 07:20 HellNino wrote: If Warhounds don't fire at air, i REALLY hope blizzard dosen't remove the thor...
Or their hope to see more mech play seems very compromised...
And 22 range tempest?! WTF... With an obs they can kill BL when they're still in the zerg base...
Haha yes, the tempest does sound to be a bit overkill.
22 is a lot, but it fires pretty slowly and has lost it's splash ability, can also be pulled by Vipers from a fair distance away into corrupters or super-fast hydras and they seem pretty weak to both those units. Who knows what can happen and how effective it is yet.
What gets me is the mass recall and the auto-fire on the missiles for the Warhound, it just seems to reward bad play too much. Toss can get out-positioned horribly by a Zerg or Terran and they can just get out with EVERY unit instantly without taking losses, they should be punished for bad positioning or horrible force-fields etc. Auto-fire missiles? Mech play doesn't have too much micro compared to bio play, make Terran fire those missiles themselves, make them choose the targets, much like neuro-parasite for infestors.
All the other stuff looks really good though, very impressed overall.
On June 09 2012 07:26 Bajsgrodan wrote: 22 range...Blizzard...seriously...comon...You can hit his natural from your own natural on small maps. How could that be a good mechanic?
Since this isn't the 'end build' of SC2 HoTS, we can assume that there will be changes. But to defend the unit a little bit, it doesn't shoot super fast, and one of the problems blizzard wanted to solve was creating more variety past what Wings of Liberty had (bio all the time, never mech unless you are GoOdy.)
This unit is also 300/300, and probably not a good idea to build in masses, since Protoss's core has always been gateway/warpgate units. In battles other than 1v1s, I imagine it might be a bit something else for blizzard to handle.
Oracle, I am okay with. I didn't like at first, but it looks like a lot of it is micro in the background, as well as another orb support unit like the sentry.
Mothership core, is 150 energy and I believe a 3 minute cooldown time on the recall, so its not THAT bad. The reason why Blizzard did this was because they wanted the Nexus to have another reason to spend energy, since Chronoboost slightly falls off late game.
The goal with terran was to create a wider variety of builds outside of just building marines, marauders, medivacs, and siege tanks maybe the occasional other unit to do some harassing or defending the main army.
If you guys look at all the units they have made for heart of the swarm, its clear that their goal was to create a bigger variety, and having less units become a part of the deathball that so many of us hate in SC2 in the first place.
I really enjoy the work they've done so far, and hopefully they continue to make changes/balances and so on. Looking forward to seeing what the people who have had the chance to play it say. Wish I could be at Anaheim!
Really looking forward to the Mothership Core. The use of Recall as emergency defense rather than just as deployment has been something I've wanted for a long time. Tempest sounds annoying as hell, but everything fits in so well thematically
Spider mines as independent units, sick sick sick. Warhounds for breaking siege lines, sick sick sick. Mechanical transforming Firebats, sickkkkkkk. "Oh shit" button for Battlecruisers, sweeet. Reaper change is pretty damn cool too.
Temporary aoe Optical Flare + Dark Swarm hybrid? Consume on buildings!? BURROW CHARGE? Offensive hydras..
Man. I swore to myself I'd ignore HotS as a gamer but now.. niceeeeeee.
AKA - we give up on giving terran something to control terrain and we're just going to reintroduce spider mine, because it worked so well in bw.
My thoughts exactly, they just too proud to admit they made a mistake so they call it something else.I thought the same thing about the swarm host when it cam out, they want to give us the lurker but they are too proud to say they made a mistake. Instead lets give them something similar to both the lurker and the brood lord.
So Terrans are now Transforrmers, so in the HotS store they will discover thanks to some prophecy, that for real they came from Cybertron... I cant belive it. Not enougth that this race will become the most difficult in play, it will also be the most ugly race in the game.
AKA - we give up on giving terran something to control terrain and we're just going to reintroduce spider mine, because it worked so well in bw.
My thoughts exactly, they just too proud to admit they made a mistake so they call it something else.I thought the same thing about the swarm host when it cam out, they want to give us the lurker but they are too proud to say they made a mistake. Instead lets give them something similar to both the lurker and the brood lord.
Takes 8 seconds to blow up, and even dustin himself said he expects pros to take no damage from it.
AKA - we give up on giving terran something to control terrain and we're just going to reintroduce spider mine, because it worked so well in bw.
My thoughts exactly, they just too proud to admit they made a mistake so they call it something else.I thought the same thing about the swarm host when it cam out, they want to give us the lurker but they are too proud to say they made a mistake. Instead lets give them something similar to both the lurker and the brood lord.
Takes 8 seconds to blow up, and even dustin himself said he expects pros to take no damage from it.
Dustin Browder, outright admitting he wants to make the game easy.
AKA - we give up on giving terran something to control terrain and we're just going to reintroduce spider mine, because it worked so well in bw.
My thoughts exactly, they just too proud to admit they made a mistake so they call it something else.I thought the same thing about the swarm host when it cam out, they want to give us the lurker but they are too proud to say they made a mistake. Instead lets give them something similar to both the lurker and the brood lord.
Takes 8 seconds to blow up, and even dustin himself said he expects pros to take no damage from it.
Dustin Browder, outright admitting he wants to make the game easy.
Yeah which improves my point on the widowmakers being useless just like the warhound and battle hellion.
Many of the changes seem really retarded IMHO. 22 range is going to be abused no matter what. Oracle is like a micro-less version of a HT drop. The Mothership core seems to give a "get out of jail" card. Spider Widow mines seems to lose depth when they are actually constructed rather than come equipped to another unit.
I mean, I'm just not feeling anything with many of the changes, although some are nice.
If Thors aren't that hero unit concept from before, and can now be built with warhounds, then I'm pretty excited and I like these changes as Terran. The Reaper change doesn't affect me much; I still won't be building Reapers in game. The widow mine is also intriguing...
On June 09 2012 07:40 1ntrigue wrote: Many of the changes seem really retarded IMHO. 22 range is going to be abused no matter what. Oracle is like a micro-less version of a HT drop. The Mothership core seems to give a "get out of jail" card. Spider Widow mines seems to lose depth when they are actually constructed rather than come equipped to another unit.
I mean, I'm just not feeling anything with many of the changes, although some are nice.
The oracle seems to be countered by one spine-crawler anyway, I think the cloaking ability will be used more often to be honest.
if wing of liberty its far away for being balanced... the balance in HOTS seems to be extremely difficult !! Blizzard would need years after all games are released to achieve something close to Starcraft:Broodwar Masterpiece.
On June 09 2012 07:32 Kanuck wrote: This is sad... i actually HATE most of these changes... not just disappointed, but full on hate.
22 range??? so now protoss can destroy bases from their base. It exaggerate, but just a bit. It will give protoss the ability to totally decide when and where a battle takes place. The idea of trying to balance this thing is absurd.
Battle hellions.... retarded excuse for more transformers..... no players are complaining about the regular hellions ability to face down zealots. We want more micro, not less. Give the players what they really want: Firebats, both for nastalgia, and to act as a buffer for bio armies.
The ultralisk burrow.... why? just why? Its a fine ability, but ridiculous to look at. Why not just give them a ram/charge? Its already been done in custom games (i.e. hero attack) and is far better aesthetically. Ram + Frenzy >>> burrow attack
The warhound looks like its model was cleaned up a bit from the last look, but its still not pretty. but other then that my rage is over. Its sad that the only unit i really like out of this is the Viper.
EDIT: also, for the love of all that is good, keep the carrier. It not being used means it needs a buff, not to be removed (see immortal)
Honestly I'm really excited about battlehellions. If you want to go pure mech against toss or zerg, this will give you a legit buffer against zealots and zerglings for your tanks to siege from outside of throwing a fuckton of thors in front of them. Now you can stagger your units into hellions in front, then warhogs with thors, then tanks sieged in the back to have a ball. And zerg will still have vipers to pull the tanks away. Personally I prefer mech play to bio as it is so maybe that's why I'm excited.
On June 09 2012 07:23 mbr2321 wrote: 22 range? Is that real? That's like 1 and a half screens. There's gonna situations where there's an observer in a base, and tempests are just going to sit outside and kill command centers or hatcheries. That's got to be a mistake.
Like you pointed out, tempest could be used as a very effective harass option by placing observer over opponent's workers.
But keep in mind that tempest needs observer or something to give it vision - while it has 22 range of attack, it will not (hopefully not, anyways) have 22 range of vision. That means it being used against choke hold units won't be as useful (snipe out observers).
Also in team plays (2vs2, etc) you could do an interesting harassment while keeping tempest safe by having a protoss & terran composition.
On June 09 2012 07:41 Schmoooopy wrote: If Thors aren't that hero unit concept from before, and can now be built with warhounds, then I'm pretty excited and I like these changes as Terran. The Reaper change doesn't affect me much; I still won't be building Reapers in game. The widow mine is also intriguing...
AKA - we give up on giving terran something to control terrain and we're just going to reintroduce spider mine, because it worked so well in bw.
My thoughts exactly, they just too proud to admit they made a mistake so they call it something else.I thought the same thing about the swarm host when it cam out, they want to give us the lurker but they are too proud to say they made a mistake. Instead lets give them something similar to both the lurker and the brood lord.
Takes 8 seconds to blow up, and even dustin himself said he expects pros to take no damage from it.
It depends on how many mines there are, if the player is paying attention, and its just like irradiate and HSM. don't pay attention your shit dies, think about trying to micro a battle. roaches lings etc against a siege line and marines. Now imagine trying to pull back individual units with the mines on them. People are still going to take damage, maybe not as much as I would in the situation. But damage will occur. It will all be a matter of it you need tech lab to make them screwing tank production of if reactor 2 for 1 deal.
AKA - we give up on giving terran something to control terrain and we're just going to reintroduce spider mine, because it worked so well in bw.
My thoughts exactly, they just too proud to admit they made a mistake so they call it something else.I thought the same thing about the swarm host when it cam out, they want to give us the lurker but they are too proud to say they made a mistake. Instead lets give them something similar to both the lurker and the brood lord.
Takes 8 seconds to blow up, and even dustin himself said he expects pros to take no damage from it.
It depends on how many mines there are, if the player is paying attention, and its just like irradiate and HSM. don't pay attention your shit dies, think about trying to micro a battle. roaches lings etc against a siege line and marines. Now imagine trying to pull back individual units with the mines on them. People are still going to take damage, maybe not as much as I would in the situation. But damage will occur. It will all be a matter of it you need tech lab to make them screwing tank production of if reactor 2 for 1 deal.
Still think 8 seconds is too too much.
We all miss and love the spider mine from BW (perhaps except for BW protoss users). We also need the 'woooohhh~' factor for the audiences.
On June 09 2012 07:44 mcmartini wrote: It will all be a matter of it you need tech lab to make them screwing tank production of if reactor 2 for 1 deal.
They can be made with reactors and they cost 75/25 to make.
AKA - we give up on giving terran something to control terrain and we're just going to reintroduce spider mine, because it worked so well in bw.
My thoughts exactly, they just too proud to admit they made a mistake so they call it something else.I thought the same thing about the swarm host when it cam out, they want to give us the lurker but they are too proud to say they made a mistake. Instead lets give them something similar to both the lurker and the brood lord.
Takes 8 seconds to blow up, and even dustin himself said he expects pros to take no damage from it.
It depends on how many mines there are, if the player is paying attention, and its just like irradiate and HSM. don't pay attention your shit dies, think about trying to micro a battle. roaches lings etc against a siege line and marines. Now imagine trying to pull back individual units with the mines on them. People are still going to take damage, maybe not as much as I would in the situation. But damage will occur. It will all be a matter of it you need tech lab to make them screwing tank production of if reactor 2 for 1 deal.
Still think 8 seconds is too too much.
We all miss and love the spider mine from BW (perhaps except for BW protoss users). We also need the 'woooohhh~' factor for the audiences.
Think 4 seconds would suffice.
I get the feeling that 4 seconds is likely what they'll determine it to be in the end as well. Really looking forward to more mech play in HotS
Hello Warhound - Bye Bye Ling Infestor =( I'm not sure how this changes will affect the Ladder experience - i guess even after the realease there will me much more work to do by Blizz
Why wouldn't Oracles permanently cloak? Everything Protoss cloaks is passive and permanent. Bad design.
Also, I don't think Terran should have build-able suicide units. That's a zerg thing. Give them to a unit. Reaper? Hellion?
I have absolutely no reservations about Blizzard adding things from BW back in if they aren't capable of doing things of equal caliber. There have been lots of new SC2 successes for the design team, but there have also been many failures.
There is ONE thing which I cannot comprehend... Blinding cloud only affecting biological units means this ability will be entirely useless against protoss (no ranged bio units)... unless it still prevents spellcasting too in which case it can be used against the high templar... and that's it... kinda limited efficiency all in all In the same way lockdown was meh in broodwar design wise because it was useless against zerg (still an awesome spell in other matchups, and it has the advantage of being an upgrade so it's a choice to get it) I doubt blinding cloud is a viper upgrade though
On June 09 2012 06:52 speknek wrote: The Protoss stuff sounds really bad, some weird gimmicky unbalancable things again. They should fix the core of the race first and after that add fancy options. Terran things sound decent. Don't know what to think of the Zerg stuff, have to see them in action first.
I think you're crazy, the ability to use the oracle for cloaking is actually insanely good for space control to force detection if they want to attack outside bases, it fixes one of the big problems I had with the oracle in the initial version was that it could harass but could not swing around to defend, it now does so in a really unique way.
The recall that's only on a single nexus (the mothership core) fixes the fact that every protoss attack was a one way trip, just really hard to retreat from, without making it broken like putting recall on the nexus would have been.
Tempest I'll agree looks gimmicky as hell and I see no reason for it to have the range that it has except maybe to avoid getting pulled into range too quickly.
Seems interesting, I'm excited to see where it goes because they've simplified their initial plans in a really nice way.
i dont understand the warhound? its anti mech so its useless vs zerg right? And is it still replacing the thor? I remember hearing the thor was going to be a 1 thor only mothership style unit. Is that still true?
On June 09 2012 07:56 IndridCold wrote: i dont understand the warhound? its anti mech so its useless vs zerg right? And is it still replacing the thor? I remember hearing the thor was going to be a 1 thor only mothership style unit. Is that still true?
Thors are in the current build and you can make more than one.
Hmm, well, here is my take on all of this, I'm not going to bother with discussing balance since that will change.
What I like - The new design direction of the Warhound, it looks interesting. - The "Spider Mine", since it is timed it encourages micro, I would definately like to see it being affected by friendly fire. - The Oracle, it'll be interesting to see how this unit works out. (although I think they need to reduce the hit points on those Mineral Shields, but that is a balance thing so meh) - The new abilites for the Mothership, Stasis sounds interesting and I'm happy that Vortex only affects ground units now. - I'm happy that they kept the Overseer.
What I Don't Like - The design of the Tempest, it's ugly as fuck (imo), I'd much rather they kept the Carrier and slapt a long range low-dps attack on it and use it's Interceptors at close range targets, or something. - The new design of the Queen, I REALLY don't like it, it's a lot darker which makes it harder too see, especially with the new Creep design. But maybe it'll grow on me, we'll see. - The design of the Locust, I'm not entirely sure why, but I just don't like it... - The design of the Mothership Core, it looks... weird, having that slapt onto the Nexus, I really hope they change how it looks.
Unsure - The new design of Creep, I still don't know if I like or dislike it. - I couldn't find any information about the Thor but I really hope they keep it in it's current form instead of making it into some Mothership-like you-can-only-have-one kinda unit.
That's about it, the other changes I either don't really care that much about or didn't feel the need to comment on.
On June 09 2012 07:53 Ophiophilius wrote: Pretty neat stuff overall but...
There is ONE thing which I cannot comprehend... Blinding cloud only affecting biological units means this ability will be entirely useless against protoss (no ranged bio units)... unless it still prevents spellcasting too in which case it can be used against the high templar... and that's it... kinda limited efficiency all in all In the same way lockdown was meh in broodwar design wise because it was useless against zerg (still an awesome spell in other matchups, and it has the advantage of being an upgrade so it's a choice to get it) I doubt blinding cloud is a viper upgrade though
Just because you brought up lockdown, I gotta say in BW because they were not able to be used vs. zerg it raised the value or the awesomeness of that spell by that much. All avid BW fans will recall Boxer using lock down on arbiters and killing it with turrets. That was pure epic-ness.
So... early game, spider Widow mines run and set up near the opponents base as a very very light contain.
Warhounds - useless versus zerg (anti-mech missile? so they shoot Colossus, Immortal, Probes, stalker(?) + terran mech units), useless versus air. (Goliwhat?) On second thought, not bad anti-toss.
Hellions - More than meets the eye...
Reapers - It's not that they're squishy, Dustin, it's that they take forever to build, require an upgrade to move fast, and their cost/benefit sucks. Still won't be used much, probably.
Meanwhile...
Oracles say take your third. You just can't mine there. Tempest (assuming you make one) spends most of its time looking for something to shoot, then has an enhanced tickle beam. Original stated use? Gone. Long range siege - DPS is too low unless you get lots of them, and that won't work. How about we cut some of that range and augment the DPS?
Mothership/Mothership core - stasis? Is that the answer to broodlords? Stasis them (and every other flying unit) after vortexing the ground army then blink under and start shooting? And just how many of these units are just to get protoss to build a Stargate, really?
Lastly...
The zerg now says "Get Over HERE!", then "haha you can't see", and Ultralisks jump out of nowhere to say high. Lurkers lurk, but with excellent timing (or excellent timed burrows) I can see them being mildly annoying to "Cheebus, kill that damn thing!" Seems to go well with Widow mine. (The terran may have mines... better send broodlings that way to ferret out the mines.)
Huh. Not sure. Will hope to get in beta to assist in determining what needs to get nerfed back into next week, or out entirely.
Best part to me are Battle.net 2 changes. A "play" ladder and a "srs" ladder.
On June 09 2012 07:53 Ophiophilius wrote: Pretty neat stuff overall but...
There is ONE thing which I cannot comprehend... Blinding cloud only affecting biological units means this ability will be entirely useless against protoss (no ranged bio units)... unless it still prevents spellcasting too in which case it can be used against the high templar... and that's it... kinda limited efficiency all in all In the same way lockdown was meh in broodwar design wise because it was useless against zerg (still an awesome spell in other matchups, and it has the advantage of being an upgrade so it's a choice to get it) I doubt blinding cloud is a viper upgrade though
22 range? TWENTY TWO FUCKING RANGE? That just sounds ridiculous and bad. Ignoring the dps and what not, the concept of something shooting THAT far, is actually comical to say the least.
Umm, I was seriously hoping they were trolling us when they first announced the new units. All these new units seem absolutely stupid to me.
Tempest - the answer to broodlords? You will still need starports to make them. and voidrays already hard counter BL and mass muta is not a problem in the current metagame. 22 range. wut? Oracle - Harassment unit? ...... again, Harassment unit? wut? Mothership Core/Mothership - another gimmick. just bring the arbiter back. what is hard about this? Widow Mine - herp derp our other idea wasn't viable so lets bring back the spider mine except make it stupid Warhound - Wait, didn't you mean to say "Goliath"? Hellion - Now Terrans have to push an extra button to transform this into a useful unit. wut? Viper - the bastard child of some Defiler's one night stand. Again, why not just put the defiler back in? dumb. Swarm host - herp derp zerg has no siege units before broods so lets make some retarded version of the Lurker when really we should just put the lurker in the game Burrow Charge - Now we can watch our ultralisks charge stupidly into a wall before they get kited to death! wut?
I really really really truly hope I am wrong here but honestly I am afraid for this expansion.
On June 09 2012 08:06 Mortal wrote: 22 range? TWENTY TWO FUCKING RANGE? That just sounds ridiculous and bad. Ignoring the dps and what not, the concept of something shooting THAT far, is actually comical to say the least.
Eh but look at weak DPS , how much its cost and how slow it is. That range tell you other thing to , this units will be always undefented , if you move army closer , they gonna sit behind , little counter from side , and they are dead.
On June 09 2012 08:06 Mortal wrote: 22 range? TWENTY TWO FUCKING RANGE? That just sounds ridiculous and bad. Ignoring the dps and what not, the concept of something shooting THAT far, is actually comical to say the least.
Eh but look at weak DPS , how much its cost and how slow it is. That range tell you other thing to , this units will be always undefented , if you move army closer , they gonna sit behind , little counter from side , and they are dead.
Blizzard says Tempest has shit damage, but...
In the video, there are 7 tempests. First volley takes out the front 2 siege tanks. So, 3/4 shots kill a siege tank. That works out to 50 damage a shot.
Im somewhat excited about the changes but I would like to see the viper get another ability. Since Blinding cloud isn't viable against protoss I would like to see something else that could be used in the ZvP matchup.
Okay after watching the videos, the entire thing are new units wrecking tanks and marines with the Terran player having zero control of the situation. Every new unit has some way to blow tanks to pieces, so why make tanks ever again? Even the Terran video is tanks and marines getting blown apart.
So far I'm cautiously optimistic. I like the Terran changes -- it looks like they're meant to reintroduce the positional play with staggered mech armies that BW was known for. If it means the end of the bio deathball I'll be extremely happy. If the widow mine causes friendly damage I already foresee some amaaaaazing micro plays from the pros. I'm more unsure about the Protoss changes, as I'm not really sure what the goal of them is. I worry that all of the recall abilities will screw with the "defender's advantage" even more, and essentially allow 'toss to be everywhere at once, guaranteeing that all P fights will be a deathball standoff.
With Zerg, I looooove the Viper. Wonder if Consume works on creep tumors? The swarm host I need to see before I make up my mind. 45 seconds feels like a really long time if you're sieging something. I suppose it depends on how the Locusts work. Here's hoping the upgrades help get the ultra and hydra back into play. I'm disappointed that the corrupter hasn't been changed / removed, it's such a booooooring unit.
Mothership needs to be removed They give the oracle the abilities instead, just like in broodwar "arbiter". And keep the carriers. Dont remove the carriers specially since blizzard completelly ignored it all throught sc2!
But look now at hydras.. oh baby.. they move so fast at high tech . If zerg player can go fast to this tech at base play ( like roches one) IMO its instantly kill all toss warpgate pressure , even 7-8 blink stalkers gate pushes are dead now :D , im so happy :D
On June 09 2012 08:13 cbueno wrote: Mothership needs to be removed They give the oracle the abilities instead, just like in broodwar "arbiter". And keep the carriers. Dont remove the carriers specially since blizzard completelly ignored it all throught sc2!
But MS CANT MOVE NOW , its addon to nexus , like planetery fortres for terran. Toss cant attack you with MS , he cant vortex .. how you can complain at this ?
On June 09 2012 08:14 pallad wrote: But look now at hydras.. oh baby.. they move so fast at high tech . If zerg player can go fast to this tech at base play ( like roches one) IMO its instantly kill all toss warpgate pressure , even 7-8 blink stalkers gate pushes are dead now :D , im so happy :D
On June 09 2012 08:13 cbueno wrote: Mothership needs to be removed They give the oracle the abilities instead, just like in broodwar "arbiter". And keep the carriers. Dont remove the carriers specially since blizzard completelly ignored it all throught sc2!
But MS CANT MOVE NOW , its addon to nexus , like planetery fortres for terran. Toss cant attack you with MS , he cant vortex .. how you can complain at this ?
Well by the time a zerg gets to hive and completes that upgrade the protoss should have moved into the late game composition so he should have more than just gateway units.
And the mothership can still move. The mothership core can't.
This is going to be amazing . Its not just going to revitalize the matchups, but its also going to change the way people think about MU's with all the new units that require positioning tactics along with the macro to support it all. It seems like Blizz is introducing ways of making the skill ceiling much, much higher .
On June 09 2012 08:08 TheFish7 wrote: Umm, I was seriously hoping they were trolling us when they first announced the new units. All these new units seem absolutely stupid to me.
Tempest - the answer to broodlords? You will still need starports to make them. and voidrays already hard counter BL and mass muta is not a problem in the current metagame. 22 range. wut? Oracle - Harassment unit? ...... again, Harassment unit? wut? Mothership Core/Mothership - another gimmick. just bring the arbiter back. what is hard about this? Widow Mine - herp derp our other idea wasn't viable so lets bring back the spider mine except make it stupid Warhound - Wait, didn't you mean to say "Goliath"? Hellion - Now Terrans have to push an extra button to transform this into a useful unit. wut? Viper - the bastard child of some Defiler's one night stand. Again, why not just put the defiler back in? dumb. Swarm host - herp derp zerg has no siege units before broods so lets make some retarded version of the Lurker when really we should just put the lurker in the game Burrow Charge - Now we can watch our ultralisks charge stupidly into a wall before they get kited to death! wut?
I really really really truly hope I am wrong here but honestly I am afraid for this expansion.
On June 09 2012 08:14 pallad wrote: But look now at hydras.. oh baby.. they move so fast at high tech . If zerg player can go fast to this tech at base play ( like roches one) IMO its instantly kill all toss warpgate pressure , even 7-8 blink stalkers gate pushes are dead now :D , im so happy :D
On June 09 2012 08:13 cbueno wrote: Mothership needs to be removed They give the oracle the abilities instead, just like in broodwar "arbiter". And keep the carriers. Dont remove the carriers specially since blizzard completelly ignored it all throught sc2!
But MS CANT MOVE NOW , its addon to nexus , like planetery fortres for terran. Toss cant attack you with MS , he cant vortex .. how you can complain at this ?
Well by the time a zerg gets to hive and completes that upgrade the protoss should have moved into the late game composition so he should have more than just gateway units.
And the mothership can still move. The mothership core can't.
ahh then its MS and mothership core now for toss? I miss that..
And as zerg player i can tell you zerg at 3 bases can go hive very fast , you just need take 6 gases fast , but dunno I must see game from some pro players to confirm my thinking , but IMO its possible to hit that timming to shot down toss gate pressure with hydras.
i really hoped Blizzard learned more from the feedback from the last preview than they apparently did.... it doest take much looking to see the vast majority of feedback is negative here.
Also, if all they wanted was to give the protoss an flying siege unit, why not increase the carrier range? At least they other player would be able to defend at least a little. And then you keep one of the iconic units that made the game instead of forcing this new model for a failed unit.
So if I want to play Mech as Terran now what are my options against air units? If the Thor is gone and the Warhound does not shoot up... ZvT: build Mutalisk only and win?
Tempest - I kinda dont like the idea of the Tempest, because its going to destroy a Brood Lord/Corruptor force. Killing Zerg late-game. Both are too slow to dogde a large AOE attack.
The Oracle is going to be a great harassment unit, if you think about it, it will be much faster than killing off workers giving it much faster harassment times and lower risk.
Core is super defensive/anti-harass with its purify ability and teleport ability. I would imagine you could warp to a drop and take it out quickly.
Mine - I feel its going to be similar to banelings. Could be used to snipe important units, really dependent on its range and the amount of time it takes to activate.
Warhound- cant say much until we see it
Hellions - Harassment unit that just got scary. You can run it fast into the base and transform into a potent force if trapped. I feel it'll make mech a hell lot more viable.
Viper - It'll be a good templar sniper. Good marine counter, will totally change TvZ more into a BW esque battle with Terrans microing out of the cloud.
SH - not sure on this one 45 seconds is a long time to wait.
Ultra - Sounds crazy. Ultras will be able to get better surrounds.
Hydra - I dont think it will make much of a difference with roaches being cheap. Hydras will always be an anti air response. Might see more usage in ZvP
On June 09 2012 08:08 TheFish7 wrote: Umm, I was seriously hoping they were trolling us when they first announced the new units. All these new units seem absolutely stupid to me.
Tempest - the answer to broodlords? You will still need starports to make them. and voidrays already hard counter BL and mass muta is not a problem in the current metagame. 22 range. wut? Oracle - Harassment unit? ...... again, Harassment unit? wut? Mothership Core/Mothership - another gimmick. just bring the arbiter back. what is hard about this? Widow Mine - herp derp our other idea wasn't viable so lets bring back the spider mine except make it stupid Warhound - Wait, didn't you mean to say "Goliath"? Hellion - Now Terrans have to push an extra button to transform this into a useful unit. wut? Viper - the bastard child of some Defiler's one night stand. Again, why not just put the defiler back in? dumb. Swarm host - herp derp zerg has no siege units before broods so lets make some retarded version of the Lurker when really we should just put the lurker in the game Burrow Charge - Now we can watch our ultralisks charge stupidly into a wall before they get kited to death! wut?
I really really really truly hope I am wrong here but honestly I am afraid for this expansion.
You know if you want to play Brood War, go play BW no one is stopping you.
I also find it odd that your so fond the the BW units, when you've only been apart of team liquid for a couple of months. I would have though such a big BW fan would have been much more aware of the community.
Btw here is the proper spelling of the word "What".
On June 09 2012 08:14 pallad wrote: But look now at hydras.. oh baby.. they move so fast at high tech . If zerg player can go fast to this tech at base play ( like roches one) IMO its instantly kill all toss warpgate pressure , even 7-8 blink stalkers gate pushes are dead now :D , im so happy :D
On June 09 2012 08:13 cbueno wrote: Mothership needs to be removed They give the oracle the abilities instead, just like in broodwar "arbiter". And keep the carriers. Dont remove the carriers specially since blizzard completelly ignored it all throught sc2!
But MS CANT MOVE NOW , its addon to nexus , like planetery fortres for terran. Toss cant attack you with MS , he cant vortex .. how you can complain at this ?
you got it wrong. the mothership still can move. the core cant move. the mothership now needs a core and fleet beacon. that is to say that toss needs another building before he can build a motehrship. its retarded, not to mention that the whole idea of the mothership itself is retarded. make the oracle like the arbiter in broodwar!
On June 09 2012 08:19 docvoc wrote: This is going to be amazing . Its not just going to revitalize the matchups, but its also going to change the way people think about MU's with all the new units that require positioning tactics along with the macro to support it all. It seems like Blizz is introducing ways of making the skill ceiling much, much higher .
Except for micro. Where is moving shot? Where are faster units?
On June 09 2012 08:26 Jerubaal wrote: Starcraft 2: Brood War.
Are you happy Teamliquid?
Yes? Are people really complaining that SC2 is too much like BW?
I'm pleased, but they're still trying to have it both ways by distinguishing the HotS concepts with counter-intuitive and arbitrary constraints that pigeonhole them (eg Warhound vs mechanical, Ghost nerf, blinding cloud only vs bio).
On June 09 2012 08:26 Jerubaal wrote: Starcraft 2: Brood War.
Are you happy Teamliquid?
Yes? Are people really complaining that SC2 is too much like BW?
Well, pretty much. A lot of the HOTS units resemble old BW units (e.g. Defiler/Viper, Widow Mine/Spider Mine, Warhound/Goliath).
To be honest, I am somewhat disappointed with the new units; while they are nice, I would have liked to see more "new" units that don't resemble anything we've seen before.
Everyone was superhyped about D3, but it's actually kinda shitty and shallow
Everyone is complaining about this, which makes me think that it's going to be awesome once you played it and have actually felt and seen all the changes.
On June 09 2012 08:22 Kanuck wrote: i really hoped Blizzard learned more from the feedback from the last preview than they apparently did.... it doest take much looking to see the vast majority of feedback is negative here.
Also, if all they wanted was to give the protoss an flying siege unit, why not increase the carrier range? At least they other player would be able to defend at least a little. And then you keep one of the iconic units that made the game instead of forcing this new model for a failed unit.
It doesn't matter what Blizzard does, the feedback is going to be negative.
I agree with the carrier thoughts. The tempest is a decent unit, but the carrier is legendary. When I think of a unit for each race its the tank zergling and carrier, and removing any one of them would just be...fucking weird, and the concept of the carrier is actually pretty unique and they should strive to keep it.
The viper should create interesting conflicts, especially when paired with infestors late game. The oracle seems like it might be extremely strong. Mothership core should makle PvP way less volatile, hopefully at least. The mines for Terran seem very interesting, and potentially very dangerous. I have high hopes for the warhound making mech viable versus Protoss...we'll see I guess.
I'd say this is a step up from the last preview. The swarm host is more powerful, terran don't have that retarded aoe thing anymore, and the tempest doesn't 1 shot muta flocks anymore. Slow and steady improvements are well...steady and improving .
On June 09 2012 08:26 Jerubaal wrote: Starcraft 2: Brood War.
Are you happy Teamliquid?
Yes? Are people really complaining that SC2 is too much like BW?
I'm pleased, but they're still trying to have it both ways by distinguishing the HotS concepts with counter-intuitive and arbitrary constraints that pigeonhole them (eg Warhound vs mechanical, Ghost nerf, blinding cloud only vs bio).
Oh yeah. it's not perfect, but I consider it a notable upgrade to WoL.
I do wish Terrans were getting something cool, though. I hope that, if Terran is super UP, they buff T instead of nerfing the cool units. Make Ravens and BCs better! That's the way to go!
viper looks op as fuck, needs to be like 300 gas or something or have the pull thing nerfed, it prettymuch hard counters robo units unless the protoss has hts. the zerg also massed hydras in that game (which are expensive in gas) and still had like 5-6 vipers with his army. if he went roaches instead, he would ahve had like 10+ vipers pulling immortals/colossi, it also means that motherships are worthless vs zergs cos sacing 2 vipers and a few corruptors for a mothership is always a good trade.
those little things the swarm host makes also can attack air and seem to have good dps which seems a bit op (like mass mass swarm host can kill eveything for free).
ultralisk charge just looks kinda retarded... hope its an activated skill rather than a auto cast or it will just be like charge but more stupid looking, doesnt make sense for 7 huge ultralisks to burrow and unbrrow under like a single marine.
tempest seems like bad design with the 22 range but no splash and really low attackspeed and dps, if they cost the same amount as carriers do now, i dont see when they would be made unless the oppoent is turtling hard behind like spines or something, or geting like 20+ broodlords, in wihch case the mothership statis still seems better, assuming u dont get it abducted. it will also limit maps greatly as they cant have as much dead space or clifts which can be abused by the templest way to easily. tbh i still think they shoudl just fix the carrier and make it microable rather than introducin this thing.
warhound seems like a mech maruader which also murders probes and scvs which is always a bad thing. they also make stalkers even less desirable in pvt.
the oracle will make pvp even more coinflipy since it pretty much makes stargate openings double as a dt opener. stargate is already at an advantage vs robo and with the new sg units, the robo player wil be disadvantaged even more. more people will go dts which will have a reasonable advantage vs sg openers, which will cause more people to go robo, which sg is advantaged greatly against, hence more coin fliping. sg vs sg will turn even more retarded than its current state with phoenix wars with some oracles which is more or less like colossus wars.
the mines seem ok in that they wil probably always kill a unit but a bit expensive to spam around the map like spider mines, though im not complaining cos i was sick to death of my two control groups of retarded dragoons steping onto mines and turning into blue goo back in bw.
On June 09 2012 08:35 mR.bONG789 wrote: ultralisk charge just looks kinda retarded... hope its an activated skill rather than a auto cast or it will just be like charge but more stupid looking, doesnt make sense for 7 huge ultralisks to burrow and unbrrow under like a single marine.
Blizzard seem to have taken the areas which were underutilized by each race and either add units or outright buff them, all while not taking away from what the races strong points were. Protoss now need to build a Stargate, Hydras are a real option with their new speed, etc.
I also like how the Swarm Host and the Tempest work, although 22 range might be a bit messed up. A lot of peoples problems with SC2 is that the battles are over in a second, after having built up the deathball. These high damage, slow attack speed units with high range make people think twice about engaging and can punish people for running in too fast. I think these new units will slow down battles so they aren't over in the blink of an eye, with the possible exception of the Widow Mines, but Terran seem the least fleshed out in general.
On June 09 2012 08:37 Psychobabas wrote: I really wonder how a zerg will be expected to engage a turtling, never attack protoss that goes to tempest/senties.
" LOL you better attack me zerg right now into my forcefields or you will die, lol"
I think that's what the swarm hosts and vipers are for, and as with the siege tank, you can only attack with the tempest where you have vision, so unless the zerg has no detection with his army, they wont be able to siege that well
On June 09 2012 08:35 mR.bONG789 wrote: viper looks op as fuck, needs to be like 300 gas or something or have the pull thing nerfed, it prettymuch hard counters robo units unless the protoss has hts. the zerg also massed hydras in that game (which are expensive in gas) and still had like 5-6 vipers with his army. if he went roaches instead, he would ahve had like 10+ vipers pulling immortals/colossi, it also means that motherships are worthless vs zergs cos sacing 2 vipers and a few corruptors for a mothership is always a good trade.
those little things the swarm host makes also can attack air and seem to have good dps which seems a bit op (like mass mass swarm host can kill eveything for free).
ultralisk charge just looks kinda retarded... hope its an activated skill rather than a auto cast or it will just be like charge but more stupid looking, doesnt make sense for 7 huge ultralisks to burrow and unbrrow under like a single marine.
tempest seems like bad design with the 22 range but no splash and really low attackspeed and dps, if they cost the same amount as carriers do now, i dont see when they would be made unless the oppoent is turtling hard behind like spines or something, or geting like 20+ broodlords, in wihch case the mothership statis still seems better, assuming u dont get it abducted. it will also limit maps greatly as they cant have as much dead space or clifts which can be abused by the templest way to easily. tbh i still think they shoudl just fix the carrier and make it microable rather than introducin this thing.
warhound seems like a mech maruader which also murders probes and scvs which is always a bad thing. they also make stalkers even less desirable in pvt.
the oracle will make pvp even more coinflipy since it pretty much makes stargate openings double as a dt opener. stargate is already at an advantage vs robo and with the new sg units, the robo player wil be disadvantaged even more. more people will go dts which will have a reasonable advantage vs sg openers, which will cause more people to go robo, which sg is advantaged greatly against, hence more coin fliping. sg vs sg will turn even more retarded than its current state with phoenix wars with some oracles which is more or less like colossus wars.
the mines seem ok in that they wil probably always kill a unit but a bit expensive to spam around the map like spider mines, though im not complaining cos i was sick to death of my two control groups of retarded dragoons steping onto mines and turning into blue goo back in bw.
I expect phoenix openings to be standard in PvZ then, no Zerg would dare to make vipers"
On June 09 2012 08:08 TheFish7 wrote: Umm, I was seriously hoping they were trolling us when they first announced the new units. All these new units seem absolutely stupid to me.
Tempest - the answer to broodlords? You will still need starports to make them. and voidrays already hard counter BL and mass muta is not a problem in the current metagame. 22 range. wut? Oracle - Harassment unit? ...... again, Harassment unit? wut? Mothership Core/Mothership - another gimmick. just bring the arbiter back. what is hard about this? Widow Mine - herp derp our other idea wasn't viable so lets bring back the spider mine except make it stupid Warhound - Wait, didn't you mean to say "Goliath"? Hellion - Now Terrans have to push an extra button to transform this into a useful unit. wut? Viper - the bastard child of some Defiler's one night stand. Again, why not just put the defiler back in? dumb. Swarm host - herp derp zerg has no siege units before broods so lets make some retarded version of the Lurker when really we should just put the lurker in the game Burrow Charge - Now we can watch our ultralisks charge stupidly into a wall before they get kited to death! wut?
I really really really truly hope I am wrong here but honestly I am afraid for this expansion.
You know if you want to play Brood War, go play BW no one is stopping you.
I also find it odd that your so fond the the BW units, when you've only been apart of team liquid for a couple of months. I would have though such a big BW fan would have been much more aware of the community.
Btw here is the proper spelling of the word "What".
Fair enough, I might have to go play BW since it looks like HoTS might break this game. I dunno man, none of these units seem like good ideas to me. I hope I'm wrong, but if one day you see a crazy old homeless drunk shouting nonsense about goliaths and vipers and game design, you'll know what happened to me.
Note: Justin Browder expects that with practice, pro-level players will almost always be able to remove the mined units away from the rest of their unit cluster.
Why would I use this unit? I don't understand, is it somehow better than building actual units out of my factory so I don't lose? Or am I supposed to use it as a crutch to beat up lower level players?
Tempest
Description: The tempest is a new capital ship that can fire at both ground and air targets from long range, doing additional damage to massive units. A further range upgrade can be researched to give the Tempest the ability to fire from incredible distances. Note: Starts at range 10, increases to 22 range with upgrade (compared to 13 for siege tanks). Said to have relatively low DPS to balance it out.
So both Zerg and Protoss get a broodlord? I like the sound of that, not being able to kill long range air units n' stuff. Sounds pretty frustrating and poorly designed imo, although to be fair I felt what they did in WoL was 100x worse.
When constructed from the factory, the Hellion spawns in its new battle mode, which gives it additional hit points and a stronger flame attack that covers a short forward-facing arc
So when I spawn my units from my buildings and want to get them out into the battlefield, I use mobility mode. And when I'm out in the battlefield, I switch to battle mode so it can outbattle other units, right? Oh wait.
On June 09 2012 08:37 Psychobabas wrote: I really wonder how a zerg will be expected to engage a turtling, never attack protoss that goes to tempest/senties.
" LOL you better attack me zerg right now into my forcefields or you will die, lol"
Like on video ? Viper , hydra , corruptor mix + Swarm Host
Disappointing for terrans, I really hope some things are added and changed for terran during the beta since it seems like they've been gimped more than other races in the expansion.
On June 09 2012 08:37 Psychobabas wrote: I really wonder how a zerg will be expected to engage a turtling, never attack protoss that goes to tempest/senties.
" LOL you better attack me zerg right now into my forcefields or you will die, lol"
Like on video ? Viper , hydra , corruptor mix + Swarm Host
You're missing the point. Once again Protoss will determine the place and time of the battle. You're gonna make hydras and burrow swarm hosts with their 45 second cooldown vs sentries?
Ok, looks sick, it's definitely a giant improvement from their first announcement. Glad the tempest has been changed and the Shredder removed. The Oracle has definitely improved with its new abilities but I still think that the mineral block ability is stupid.
I'm excited but I'm also really worried about what all these units will do to the balance of the game. I mean, every single one is just ridiculously powerful. Zerg tier 2 (pretty much like ground Brood Lords, that can burrow too!) and a 22 range unit for late game Toss...(On Shattered, these could prolly seige your main from like above the Nexus...has crazy flashback to Thor drops on Lost Temple and heart misses a beat) I definitely forsee some ridiculously imba shit happening when the game hits...
On June 09 2012 08:37 Psychobabas wrote: I really wonder how a zerg will be expected to engage a turtling, never attack protoss that goes to tempest/senties.
" LOL you better attack me zerg right now into my forcefields or you will die, lol"
Like on video ? Viper , hydra , corruptor mix + Swarm Host
You're missing the point. Once again Protoss will determine the place and time of the battle. You're gonna make hydras and burrow swarm hosts with their 45 second cooldown vs sentries?
Its 25 sec i think not 45. And yes , hydras can easy kill stalkers + sentry mix , everyone know that
On June 09 2012 08:37 Psychobabas wrote: I really wonder how a zerg will be expected to engage a turtling, never attack protoss that goes to tempest/senties.
" LOL you better attack me zerg right now into my forcefields or you will die, lol"
Like on video ? Viper , hydra , corruptor mix + Swarm Host
You're missing the point. Once again Protoss will determine the place and time of the battle. You're gonna make hydras and burrow swarm hosts with their 45 second cooldown vs sentries?
Its 25 sec i think not 45. And yes , hydras can easy kill stalkers + sentry mix , everyone know that
the speed or lack of was a huge handicap to hydras, but now they seem way more viable and can shake up the zvp fights
Biological unit restriction for blinding cloud makes it essentially useless against Protoss then. Not to mention it becomes less intuitive to spectators now, because it's going to confuse them a bit at first when they see marines not firing but siege tanks can.
So, in thinking over possibilities and cheese that worked about a year ago (not so much now)...
As a Zerg player, if I concentrate lurkerSwarm Host and Infestors, I basically can spawn a free army as often as my timer ticks and my infestors still have energy? Move up, burrow swarm hosts (they're now invisible), then move burrowed infestors up to support with massive beach ball lobbing under the cover of the Swarm Hosts.
After this weekend, maybe the HotS custom maps get updated and we get a taste while waiting and praying we get into the beta.
Why doesnt blizzard just remove terran?? blizzard is crossing out all possible unit composition in TvZ mech sucks anyways and viper is gonna make tank useless so only possible TvZ unit combo terran has is MMM...
and in TvP they didnt make any nerf to toss late game units, they buffed it by giving mothership recall ability back, and giving nexus mothership core... now toss units strong and mobile
On June 09 2012 08:39 Jugan wrote: When constructed from the factory, the Hellion spawns in its new battle mode, which gives it additional hit points and a stronger flame attack that covers a short forward-facing arc
So when I spawn my units from my buildings and want to get them out into the battlefield, I use mobility mode. And when I'm out in the battlefield, I switch to battle mode so it can outbattle other units, right? Oh wait.
That's actually on purpose. If you are bronze, battle mode is more useful, otherwise, it's an APM tax in a game that's pretty APM light.
Finally, the Hydralisk has a new upgrade that allows them to move faster while not on creep.
I actually started jumping in my chair at this hahah, pretty excited for all the new changes. Gonna be a great time on the competetive scene for a while I'm sure
Justin Browder expects that with practice, pro-level players will almost always be able to remove the mined units away from the rest of their unit cluster.
Wait, what?! So i should build this Mine in factory, loss resources, loss time in factory for it, and then kill 1 (ONE!) unit with it? Realy?!
Zerg gets scorpion from mortal kombat, 'defiler', underground broodlords and more, and I get Mine? Great...
Wow, toss just got amazing, while terran has a few decent(ish) improvements, and zerg got severely nerfed from the past edition of the hots beta (when everyone can agree,zerg looked the best from the hots races).
Toss has an even more powerful late game now with the Tempest, and still a very strong mothership (archon toilet is not needed with 22 range Tempest), with amazing midgame additions such as the oracle..zerg no longer has burrow speed banes, ultras are now snareable/slowable which will make sure to keep them at the terrible units status they are, regardless of the charge..think expensive chargelots, that is what ultras will be.Viper only working on bio will make it pretty bad against the dredded death ball as well, aside from pulling some colossi i guess.
Toss looks amazing..hope you enjoy pvp, everyone will switch over...toss already feels stronger and easier to a lot of people..this xpac will just amplify that.
With vortex not working on air units, ZvP will turn into a joke. But, besides that, radical changes are good, hopefully we will see a lot of new players becoming pros and maybe pushing the current ones aside.
Justin Browder expects that with practice, pro-level players will almost always be able to remove the mined units away from the rest of their unit cluster.
Wait, what?! So i should build this Mine in factory, loss resources, loss time in factory for it, and then kill 1 (ONE!) unit with it? Realy?!
Zerg gets scorpion from mortal kombat, 'defiler', underground broodlords and more, and I get Mine? Great...
Not only that but now siege tanks can be outranged EZPZ. BoxeR must by crying.
On June 09 2012 09:07 wangstra wrote: My impression is that they are still trying to kludge together units from BW but remain in denial and instead have opted to spray abilities all over the place. If you want to introduce an arbiter do so, don't half ass it.
The way they've approached balance in this game also introduces a stupid hilarity into the units they make. The protoss, the might of the void, with technology far outpacing anything the Terrans have ever encountered, who have absorbed technology from their creators in their wisdom built a an air unit that could fire at enemies from far away but only tickle them damage wise. Then they proceeded to call it a tempest...
If Bowder is absolutely certain that pros will be evading the newly introed mine, does he expect people to spend the min/gas to kill one unit?
The point is board control, not killing efficiency
I feel like Terran is coming out a bit weaker from all of this, but will try to withhold judgement until we have more opportunities to see how the game actually plays. Just a bit worried...
Also, one other person commented on this - what do you all think of the CC/Nexus/Hatch showing you the number of workers you currently have mining? I simultaneously like and dislike this. It makes my life easier, which is kind of nice, but I feel like it does take a bit of "skill" (aka paying attention to expos) out of the game. Why not give queens' inject an autocast option, as well? Obviously somewhat different, and not as drastic, but...I'm kinda meh on that one.
Still, excited with all the work they seem to be putting into this. Having only been playing SC2 for 6 months, I wish I had more time with this before HotS, but trying to stay positive!
Edit: I also don't like the mineral blocking thing from Protoss. Seems really annoying.
AKA - we give up on giving terran something to control terrain and we're just going to reintroduce spider mine, because it worked so well in bw.
Except for this part: "with practice, pro-level players will almost always be able to remove the mined units away from the rest of their unit cluster."
Which means at high level play it will be completely useless
Interviewer: "So Dustin would you say that you just hate mech or do you despise it?" DB: "Well that's an obvious answer isn't it? Mech is for retards and that's why we're killing it." Int: "Would you say this change was influenced by previous mistakes?" DB: "Whhaaattt?" *tugs at collar* "Does it feel hot in here? It feels pretty warm." Int: "Seriously, just answer the question." DB, perspiring gratuitously: "What was the question again?" *starts to twitch* Int: "Why. Do. You. Hate. Mechanical. Units?" DB: "I don't have to put up with this shit! Fuck you and fuck tanks." *starts sobbing profusely* "I hate tanks so much I just.. I.. I..." *starts to go into the fetal position* "APOCALYPSE TANKS!!! APOCALYPSE TANKS EVERYWHERE!!! In my base, on the bridge, in thecityeverymap. MOMMY!! Ijustwantmymommy.Mommyhelpme." *Balled up on the floor crying hysterically* Int: "Next question. Why the fuck are you allowed to design games?" -Fin
LOIL LOL LOL 22 RANGE LOL I CANT STOP LAUGHING im just going to keep building this unit until it stops being fun... can you even see the unit when it attacks at max range? i wonder the conversation that went on in the design room... can i siege opponents from my own base?
THANK YOU HYDRA SPEED HOLY SHIT THOSE MOFO'S WERE SO SLOW
More spellcasters and a long-range capital ship. Oh, and several useless terran features. I demand to know the salaries of the game designers if this is what they've come up with after all this time. I didn't expect much, but what they're doing with terran is... incredible....
Remember that Dark Swarm literally made units underneath invincible to all Terran units in BW. Just because a spell or ability sounds OP, doesn't mean it is. The Tempest is SUPER expensive, needs a spotter to make use of its range, and is almost useless at close to medium range, or if you kill the spotter.
I fell out of my chair when I read 22 range. When my friend told me about that I thought he was trolling me. No way that stays the same after it gets tested this weekend. We really just need to wait to play the beta though, because you really can't tell anything from just reading it.
On June 09 2012 07:05 caradoc wrote: Range 22? Did I read that correctly? My new favourite base sniper. Completely safe from marines, recallable. Bonus vs. buildings. Hell, that's way out of building site range.
I really hope it will never make it into the final version! That range is ridiculous, I don't want another Command and Conquer or the likes of that. Blizzard, please think it over again!
I can't wait for HotS (in a balanced state, whether in beta or not) becomes the tournament standard. It would really shake up the scene. Really loving the new units. The new Tempest range makes me not care that Carriers are not in it (seriously, let's just see if the 22 range works first before crying imba... either way if it's imba it will definitely be nerfed).
Warhound, mines and battle hellions making mech viable.
Definitely an improvement regarding the last preview, but for me, it’s really hard to be excited. It seems like Blizzard is focused in a few concepts and models and is trying to hammer them until they fit. What I liked:
- Keeping the Mothership, Thor and Overseer - Hydralisk upgrade. - Redline Reactor (Battlecruisers need a buff).
What I didn’t liked:
- Tempest with 22 range (I’ll give the benefit of doubt). - Battle Hellions? Are they really needed to counter Zealots? - Widow mine? Lol. Does damage to air units? Lol. It’s simple, we want Brood War Mines. - Ultralisk Burrow Charge is silly (It would be better to increase armor or HP). - Abduct is a frustrating spell. Just no. - The new unit models and spells don’t look very good - New Queen is ugly, the War Hound is still ugly, the Oracle is ugly, etc. - Entomb? No thanks, it’s not fun. - Creating destructible rocks? - Forget the Oracle. Bring back the Arbiter.
Blizzards don’t be afraid to bring units from Brood War back. They are part of the universe.
Another thing, use Hots to change the Sentries attack beam. It really doesn’t fit the rest of the animations in the game.
I really like the changes to zerg and the changes to terran are alright(wish the mine could be made from a unit instead of costing factory time), but the protoss changes seem so scattered. I know protoss looks like it is going to be overpowered as hell and it probably is, but it also feels like there is a unit for everything now. It seems like Blizz wants you to make each unit for a specific situation instead of using the units you have cleverly. Maybe I just miss the versatility of dragoons and zealots, but I am really not looking forward to "one of each counter unit" HOTS protoss.
To the people overreacting to the 22 range tempest, just take a deep breath.
1) 22 range means you need VISION 22 yards away, simple counter to tempest is to snipe the observers. 2) It is no broodlords, does not destroy siege lines with broodlings, and DPS is said to be low so it won't matter much in big engagements. 3) Even if it mattered in big engagement, disparity in range between protoss units means the tempest will be defenseless while other units are on the front battling it out, vikings will definitively take them out with ease.
Seems like it will be a pretty difficult unit to mix in any comp imo...
EDIT: Thought about it for a minute, then only usage I see of it will be for harassment, using the Oracle "building parasite" to give vision in naturals so that the tempest can wreck havok in the mineral line, forcing the opponents' armies to engage;
Wow, it may seem insignificant, but my favorite change to already existing units is the Changeling buff, allowing Zergs to spawn them at a huge range. This makes overseers much more effective scouts, especially in highly fluid battle fields with lots of shifting and moving of armies. Love it.
On June 09 2012 09:30 Ribbon wrote: Remember that Dark Swarm literally made units underneath invincible to all Terran units in BW. Just because a spell or ability sounds OP, doesn't mean it is. The Tempest is SUPER expensive, needs a spotter to make use of its range, and is almost useless at close to medium range, or if you kill the spotter.
if only toss would have a small, cheap invisible scouting unit to function as this "spotter", right
Woooooooo! Does anyone else laugh every time they see seomthing get abducted? It just looks hilariuos. Also I love the viper. Actually I love most updates theyre doing.
but TWENTY TWO RANGE WHAT THE FUCK thats massive O_O
On June 09 2012 09:37 Warpish wrote: Definitely an improvement regarding the last preview, but for me, it’s really hard to be excited. It seems like Blizzard is focused in a few concepts and models and is trying to hammer them until they fit. What I liked:
- Keeping the Mothership, Thor and Overseer - Hydralisk upgrade. - Redline Reactor (Battlecruisers need a buff).
What I didn’t liked:
- Tempest with 22 range (I’ll give the benefit of doubt). - Battle Hellions? Are they really needed to counter Zealots? - Widow mine? Lol. Does damage to air units? Lol. It’s simple, we want Brood War Mines. - Ultralisk Burrow Charge is silly (It would be better to increase armor or HP). - Abduct is a frustrating spell. Just no. - The new unit models and spells don’t look very good - New Queen is ugly, the War Hound is still ugly, the Oracle is ugly, etc. - Entomb? No thanks, it’s not fun. - Creating destructible rocks? - Forget the Oracle. Bring back the Arbiter.
Blizzards don’t be afraid to bring units from Brood War back. They are part of the universe.
Another thing, use Hots to change the Sentries attack beam. It really doesn’t fit the rest of the animations in the game.
So much hate. I think new queens look better. Ultralisk Burrow is neat, although a bit silly looking... increasing their HP wouldn't really do much (theyve tried that) and increasing their armor more would be ridiculous (they already have 6...)
Abduct is the fucking shit. I like how Oracles look (did you see the battle report? They look good in game). Creating destructable rocks can be interesting if used correctly, just like actual destructable rocks. Of course, it'll probalby be abused and overused unfortunately.
I agree with the mine thing. They seem pretty worthless. The fuse is so long. Battle Hellions dont really seem required to me but I guess I can give them the benifit of the doubt...
On June 09 2012 09:46 Crazyeyes wrote: Woooooooo! Does anyone else laugh every time they see seomthing get abducted? It just looks hilariuos. Also I love the viper. Actually I love most updates theyre doing.
but TWENTY TWO RANGE WHAT THE FUCK thats massive O_O
On June 09 2012 09:37 Warpish wrote: Definitely an improvement regarding the last preview, but for me, it’s really hard to be excited. It seems like Blizzard is focused in a few concepts and models and is trying to hammer them until they fit. What I liked:
- Keeping the Mothership, Thor and Overseer - Hydralisk upgrade. - Redline Reactor (Battlecruisers need a buff).
What I didn’t liked:
- Tempest with 22 range (I’ll give the benefit of doubt). - Battle Hellions? Are they really needed to counter Zealots? - Widow mine? Lol. Does damage to air units? Lol. It’s simple, we want Brood War Mines. - Ultralisk Burrow Charge is silly (It would be better to increase armor or HP). - Abduct is a frustrating spell. Just no. - The new unit models and spells don’t look very good - New Queen is ugly, the War Hound is still ugly, the Oracle is ugly, etc. - Entomb? No thanks, it’s not fun. - Creating destructible rocks? - Forget the Oracle. Bring back the Arbiter.
Blizzards don’t be afraid to bring units from Brood War back. They are part of the universe.
Another thing, use Hots to change the Sentries attack beam. It really doesn’t fit the rest of the animations in the game.
So much hate. I think new queens look better. Ultralisk Burrow is neat, although a bit silly looking... increasing their HP wouldn't really do much (theyve tried that) and increasing their armor more would be ridiculous (they already have 6...)
Abduct is the fucking shit. I like how Oracles look (did you see the battle report? They look good in game). Creating destructable rocks can be interesting if used correctly, just like actual destructable rocks. Of course, it'll probalby be abused and overused unfortunately.
I agree with the mine thing. They seem pretty worthless. The fuse is so long. Battle Hellions dont really seem required to me but I guess I can give them the benifit of the doubt...
What? What hate? If I'm listing all this things it's because I love this game and don't want to see him ruined. It is just my opinion, but I'm not enjoying the new additions so far. I hope that this opinion changes.
Huh, mana regen from building damage. I assume this is because they want it to be a defensive caster, but I hope it works on unburrowed crawlers. It'd be pretty funny to see zerg armies start to feature unburrowed, sacrificial spores and spines.
On June 09 2012 09:37 Warpish wrote: Definitely an improvement regarding the last preview, but for me, it’s really hard to be excited. It seems like Blizzard is focused in a few concepts and models and is trying to hammer them until they fit. What I liked:
- Keeping the Mothership, Thor and Overseer - Hydralisk upgrade. - Redline Reactor (Battlecruisers need a buff).
What I didn’t liked:
- Tempest with 22 range (I’ll give the benefit of doubt). - Battle Hellions? Are they really needed to counter Zealots? - Widow mine? Lol. Does damage to air units? Lol. It’s simple, we want Brood War Mines. - Ultralisk Burrow Charge is silly (It would be better to increase armor or HP). - Abduct is a frustrating spell. Just no. - The new unit models and spells don’t look very good - New Queen is ugly, the War Hound is still ugly, the Oracle is ugly, etc. - Entomb? No thanks, it’s not fun. - Creating destructible rocks? - Forget the Oracle. Bring back the Arbiter.
Blizzards don’t be afraid to bring units from Brood War back. They are part of the universe.
Another thing, use Hots to change the Sentries attack beam. It really doesn’t fit the rest of the animations in the game.
Hmm reading your comment got me to thinking, if sentries received another spell of some sorts. 150 mana maybe, but it casts a red shield much like guardian shield but no spells can be cast inside that shell. This would create interesting micro fights between EMP, Abduct, and even denying transfuse etc. IDK just a random idea :3 Maybe even give it to oracle, but like imagine, putting on the shield and suddenly conc shell not working, hmm idk I kinda like the idea :3
I'm gonna just sit here in my own theorycraft fantasy.
On June 09 2012 10:22 frogrubdown wrote: Huh, mana regen from building damage. I assume this is because they want it to be a defensive caster, but I hope it works on unburrowed crawlers. It'd be pretty funny to see zerg armies start to feature unburrowed, sacrificial spores and spines.
I know right! I imagined that in my head just as I read it also, should be pretty cool tbh :3
the 22 range tempest is definitely intriguing. i think it will most effectively be used as a way to break stalemates in the same way that brood lords are right now, only better. of course it will require vision support via observers or other air units, which is a different element of gameplay that protoss has not had up until now. i also like that they are trying to turn the late game into something more for protoss with the addition of new abilities for the nexus via upgrades.
i'm actually mostly excited for the zerg units still, i'm glad to see that they are going to remain the same. the viper and swarm host may need some tweaking in some due time but overall they are the units i felt zerg needed the most for the past 2 years.
1. Broodlords before Broodlords in WoL, sometimes the only thing stopping an unstoppable force of Siege Tanks is.... themselves. Using their own splash against them, Broodlords are the best counter currently to Tank lines. But now, with a ranged cast on Changelings, you can have Beach Ball Bombs before even getting an Infestation Pit! No more hoping the terran has no detection and hoping that burrow upgrade was worth it. No more getting you infestors all picked off because you tried to do a cute micro trick. No more losing 8 Broodlord cocoons which were your last hope against a stampede of siege tanks. Now, as early in the game as 5 minutes, you can have the best counter to siege tanks yet, often before Terran even finishes researching siege mode.
2. Flying Forcefields Are marauders still kiting your Ultralisks? Now, with a ranged cast on Changeling, you can make a makeshift wall of fake marines to prevent your enemy from escaping! Due to the recent speed buff on Overseers, positioning them is easier as well. This strategy has a myriad of uses, from hugging a group of stimmed marines for your baneling rape train to catch up to, or to block your ramp from a zergling runby. Embrace the melee ranged of zerglings, banelings, and Ultras! Laugh at and ignore the Ultralisk burrow-charge upgrade. As an added bonus, we've taken the pleasure of helping you against Zerg's other new unit, the Swarm host as well. With a well armed volley of Changelings, you can form a ring around the spawning point of Locusts, preventing the from ever being a factor in the battle. With the Overseers TrueSight, clean up the useless wanna-be Lurkers afterwards.
3. The Disposable Paratrooper With siege range on Spawn Changeling, you can now infiltrate an enemy's base from a safe and careful distance. Patrolling Marines, Missile Turrets, or defensive Widow Mines preventing you from scouting? Not anymore! Just throw down a Changeling, bypass all defenses and detection, and enjoy your free maphacks! What's more, you can use them to scout ahead of your army, throwing them left and right around the map willy nilly, since hey, they're free. And since they can be deployed from any angle, any location, and from a siege range, there's no nook nor cranny you can't scout.
Addendum: Interaction with Widow Mines. Does a un-morphed Changeling trigger spider-mines? If so, it might be a free way of getting rid of mines as well...
Changelings: Most OP unit since 2009, now even more OP. + Show Spoiler +
Not sure how I feel about this. I like the warhound as a unit I guess, and the new battle hellion sounds like it might be good in a late game composition. As far as the widow mines go though, I'm not sure I like the concept. A mine that costs food, possibly gas and can even according to Browder you will be able to simply remove the unit the mine attaches to before it explodes. I don't know, it just doesn't seem like widow mines will be anywhere near as good as spider mines were in BW.
To be honest, I'm not sure I'm comfortable with the Tempest having TWENTY TWO possible range, that just seems... like... really? I guess I'd really need an in depth view of the Tempest, but it seems too long.
On June 09 2012 11:48 SoFool wrote: Didnt dustin said he didnt want sc2 to be like bw? I'm seeing too many bw resemblance here, except for protoss.
Also the swarm host still cant attack from a cliff effectively.
I think you're missing the point of his statement, his point was that it wasn't enough to just make broodwar AGAIN because broodwar does have issues and they needed room to introduce different units that solved those problems even if they introduce others.
Banelings are a good example, they liked how they integrate with the speed on creep, they liked that they were a "trade" style unit not an efficient unit, they liked that with burrow you can use them like mines and with drop you can use them as a carpet bomb, they also solve some of broodwar's ZvZ issues which amount to "get as much gas as possible without dying to lings" because they're an early gas unit that trades well vs large numbers of light units.
So they made the tough decision to remove the lurker because they overlap, lurkers + banelings would be a really difficult combination to handle it's just a ton of splash damage and just as a general rule it muddies the design to have 2 units do that very similar things. But they obviously still like the fact that the lurker lets you pressure a wall without endangering your units.
So they introduce the swarm host. The swarm host isn't a new concept it's similar to the lurker, but it's different in that it doesn't just add more splash damage to the field and it doesn't get "tricked" if you throw only a single unit at it, it also doesn't gain much effectiveness from unit hold position mico, which while cool in broodwar, has had it's role taken by baneling land mines.
So it's not that they're against adding things they found good about broodwar, it's that their first instinct shouldn't just be "make it more like broodwar because that was a good game, therefore if it's exactly broodwar it's a good game." the solution space is different and needs to be filled by different units because the problems are different.
You guys are overreacting so much. The Tempest has horrible DPS and the range upgrade costs 200/200 i think. I'd rather have more DPS than 22 range. With this shitty DPS, it might as well be on the other end of the map. Who cares?
I think it's the Viper that's the most dangerous unit. It completely nullifies tanks, colossi and bio forces. What, you paid 300/200 for a colossus, 200/200 for the support bay and 200/200 for the thermal lance? Well i'll kill it before it gets one shot off.
I'd rather face 20 corruptors because at least the colossus will shoot once before dying and the zerg will have paid more money and supply for those corruptors. I just hate units and abilities that instantly nullify the other races' big advantage so that their army dies without paying for itself even a bit.
I realise the Viper will cost a lot, but come on, it wont be much more than getting a few corruptors, and as i said, you arent countering the Colossi, you're instantly killing them. Same for tanks.
DPS is the wrong metric to focus on. It could have shit DPS but a great damage hit and so the toss army can start really hurting the viper, ultra or broodlord packs long before any engagement or in areas where collosi can mop up the rest.
Stargate is still vital for toss late game v Z. Tempests will never be made in PvT though since there really arent that many units worth being sniped or that can be sniped.
As a Protoss player i find that The tempest has the potential to be EXTREMELY overpowered. Imagine 3 or 4 of those one shotting everything. With voidrays and pheonix to cover. It would be unstoppable.
I personally wish the Void Ray became more useful. What does it mean that it's only being used early in PvZ when Zerg have very little anti air? That it's crap. It should be the go to unit to deal with BroodLords but mass corruptors, mutas, or fungal melt them. I remember hearing that Blizzard considered making Fungal a ground only ability but that would ruin ZvZ and the whole anti-muta gameplay.
Anyway, with the Vortex gone for air units, it seems like the only option is now the Tempest. Keep it away (in your base lol) and shoot them down. Hope it works.
Hopefully the re-emergence of Mech in HotS will mean that we can use Void Rays against it and thus Voids wont be completely useless.
On June 09 2012 12:41 dnld12 wrote: As a Protoss player i find that The tempest has the potential to be EXTREMELY overpowered. Imagine 3 or 4 of those one shotting everything. With voidrays and pheonix to cover. It would be unstoppable.
True, but that's easily fixed with a damage nerf, increase in price, building time nerf, etc.
Heart of the Swarm will also include a wider variety of locations, or sets, for players to explore between missions. These sets change dynamically as players complete missions, giving players a sense of an evolving world as Kerrigan makes her presence felt throughout the galaxy
Well, if this really works as intended, it would really be a good substitute the lower number of missions...
Heart of the Swarm will also include a wider variety of locations, or sets, for players to explore between missions. These sets change dynamically as players complete missions, giving players a sense of an evolving world as Kerrigan makes her presence felt throughout the galaxy
Well, if this really works as intended, it would really be a good substitute the lower number of missions...
Don't they just mean a larger variety of the ones that appeared in WoL? Where there were the news reports and clippings and stuff? Not exactly hyped for those.
lol as a protoss player i have got to laugh at the 22 range unit i really hope it makes it to beta to seem some you tube videos of the shannageins people pull with that. blizzard keeps adding things to protoss late game how about another mid game unit we are the only race to not get one
Justin Browder expects that with practice, pro-level players will almost always be able to remove the mined units away from the rest of their unit cluster.
Wait, what?! So i should build this Mine in factory, loss resources, loss time in factory for it, and then kill 1 (ONE!) unit with it? Realy?!
Zerg gets scorpion from mortal kombat, 'defiler', underground broodlords and more, and I get Mine? Great...
Holy crap, that ultralisk upgrade looks imba, however so does the mine I guess, depending on how it places himself and how much it costs. But without the frenzy upgrade, it means that mass thor stand a chance against mass ultra!
idk it seems like terran bio is going to be out of the game since its gonna be so easy to kill with the pull some tanks over here and then choose between fungal or cloud to roll your banelings over the marines. Also Toss being able to recall from anywhere super early? oh you out of position no problem! i hope the beta testing makes some changes because right now seems like terrans are gonna be really really bad in HotS
Anyone else think the oracle is kind of silly? The problem with it is its too fast and can be accessed so quickly. I really couldn't see a player losing one EVER. You could have like 4 or 5 flying around entombing everything constantly. Sure the other player could build spores or turrets to defend but until mutas or vikings are made you really cant kill them. They can just camp out all game behind a players base. I dont know something doesn;t seem right with it
This game seems amazing. People don't need to worry about balance right now, it'll be fixed and tweaked over time... metagames will develop and things will be ok.
But as for the state of the game, it seems much more brood war esque and seems to reward better play much more.
The oracle seems to be a unit that early game is gonna be a little annoying (requires apm to have units / drones atk it) but late game is gonna be just a test of who has more apm. Swarm host seems to move the game in a direction where the fights last much longer and are much more back and forth tempo based, kind of like how brood war fights would last for a long time across multiple screens.
The mine looks like it'll be another thing that early game, every pro will be able to split and take minimal damage, but late game in big fights it'll be potentially devastating and incredibly hard to avoid the dmg from it.
Strategy wise the game looks to be more interesting as well. What can instant energy max from mothership core do with early sentry pushes? How about defensive teching with only 1 or 2 sentries who can forcefield 20 times.
Tempest looking to make the game look way more interesting late game and making positions matter so much more.
The abduct ability looks cartoony and dumb. It pushes the whole suspend disbelief thing to accept that this flying defiler thing can go all "get over here" scorpion-style to a massive 'toss war machine (colossus), which must weigh some ungodly amount. it just looks really really stupid.
What's the purpose of the swarm host? It looks out of character with the rest of zerg units too.
Some of the new units and/or abilities remind me of Brood War units/abilities. So Blizzard does implement old, well-proven stuff and new stuff as well. I like that. The screenshots look amazing. I'm really looking forward to the new tylesets and units. I also like the idea of a non-ranked match-making system. It reminds me of League of Legends and will provide us with a way to play Starcraft 2 HotS without feeling pressure.
On June 09 2012 17:04 S3iizure wrote: I'm really intrested to see how this 22 range thing works out, seems a bit overkill IMO, even if it has a low dps.
True. But it does no splash damage so marines can attack it effectively. I still think that 22 is too much but it should be rather easy to balance with the right price. It has it weaknesses and honestly I think they can work a bit like carriers in pvt brood war. You can maneuver long range attack and run for cover if Vikings show up. Also observer sniping will be essential. I'm not sure how zergs are supposed to fight with it. I guess brute force...
On June 09 2012 16:13 RedMosquito wrote: Anyone else think the oracle is kind of silly? The problem with it is its too fast and can be accessed so quickly. I really couldn't see a player losing one EVER. You could have like 4 or 5 flying around entombing everything constantly. Sure the other player could build spores or turrets to defend but until mutas or vikings are made you really cant kill them. They can just camp out all game behind a players base. I dont know something doesn;t seem right with it
Yeah, it's bizarre they have so much shields and so little hp. They're already quick, just micro them if you don't want them to take damage. :/
This all sounds really really good! Loved the battle report game!! That ZvP game looked way more entertaining than any ZvP game I have ever seen in WoL! ;D
It's pretty amazing that some people are able to look at this in a negative light. But I guess that says more about some of the posters on this forum.
Do widow mines deal friendly fire to the caster's units if the opponent sends their unit into your army? Additionally, can you cancel the widow mine detonation by killing your own unit before the 10 second timer is up?
I remember playing that hots custom map after blizzcon against a friend and remember thinking if oracle entomb stays as it is I will not be buying hots and lol now I see it is same Entomb is the most unfun ability to play against. I woud rather suffer any kind of real units harras then constant Entombs.
i hope they change some things until the game comes out,i don't like the vortex nerf,the viper's consume on buildings (BW's consume is a classic to me) and warhounds may be difficult to balance against stalkers...but most of all i really wish they keep the carriers!
Not sure about this new mine, sounds just like burrowed banelings, just that it detonates itself The rest looks pretty good, although 22 range sounds like way too much, I think they will have to balance this ^^
On June 09 2012 06:52 speknek wrote: The Protoss stuff sounds really bad, some weird gimmicky unbalancable things again. They should fix the core of the race first and after that add fancy options. Terran things sound decent. Don't know what to think of the Zerg stuff, have to see them in action first.
I totally agree. Cool stuff and abilities on paper for Protoss but their usability and affect on the game will be questionable. Like whole current stargate tech tree is useless in pvt, most of the new things will be useful in very very rare situations. For example you only need a phoenix in pvt if you base trade and terran floats his buildings in WoL. Like this, oracle's cloak ability will be rarely useful if oracle doesn't cloak itself or cloak units and then run away because all the other units are cloaked oracle will be the only targeted unit and killed immediately and the cloak is lost(?). Very long range tempest will only be useful if you are too ahead economically or opponent does not have a direct response because it's too expensive and because of low dps you can wait under its fire with roaches for an hour. A simple thought, if you invest 300-300 on a unit it should be able to damage to opponent like 300-300. If you build a banshee and have some micro skill, you are guaranteed to kill couple of workers, at least to compensate its cost. It will be very hard to compensate tempest's cost.
I think if a new unit will be added to Protoss, it should be like warhound, which adds extra usable strategies to game. If you see opponent going mech units, which is very likely, build warhounds and it's OK. Simple, easy, cost effective with an unlikely downside. Other new terran units are like this also. Only a very, very skilled player "may" make use of a 150 energy costing mass recall in a match and if energy cost is low, it will be unbalanced. Protoss metagame is broken at its core, all game revolves around stalkers, HT's, forcefields to stay alive, colossi and some stargate cheese while other races have ton of different playstyles. Even the best Protoss progamers don't play very creatively because they don't have the right tools.
I see a lot of people asking about the Thor unit. If you look at the HotS gallery, there is a picture just next to the Warhound. where you can see multiple Thors being used alongside the Terran army. So i guess Thors will be the same as in WoL
Some of the Zerg changes... I just don't know. Hear my initial thoughts on the matter. This is not whining this is just what I think. So take everything I saw with a grain of salt and don't be huffy about it.
Viper's Blinding Cloud is like a copy of Dark Swarm. In fact the Viper just seems to be a flying Defiler. Consume only works on Zerg buildings apparently which makes Consume less viable on the offensive. The pull ability seems nice (for like, Colossi and stuff) but it seems like something that could easily be broken, a bit like force-fields. However something that could be nifty is if a pulled Colossi breaks force-fields. Could probably be useful and make for a more interesting fight. Even if I just dislike crowd-control abilities in an RTS game in general..
Hydralisk speed upgrade is just a copy/paste of BW.
I dislike the Tempest already because it's simply a longer-ranged version of a Brood Lord that can also shoot at air units. Not a fan of it as a Zerg player. Similarly, I dislike Swarm Host because it's a burrowed hybrid of a Lurker and a Brood Lord. It's also a terribly ugly unit (as if that mattered). Locusts seem really slow too. Since I've barely seen SH in a real game I can't really judge about their usefulness properly, it just doesn't seem to be that great. If I recall correctly, Lurkers were also faster than SH.
Oracle seems interesting as a support unit. Blocking mining seems interesting, force-fields for minerals basically. Cloaking units, that seems kind of cool. Not sure how useful it would be. I just have fixed feelings overall about the oracle.
Either way, I think I'll be more interesting it watching professional HOTS than actually playing it.
On June 09 2012 16:12 zeratul_jf wrote: idk it seems like terran bio is going to be out of the game since its gonna be so easy to kill with the pull some tanks over here and then choose between fungal or cloud to roll your banelings over the marines. Also Toss being able to recall from anywhere super early? oh you out of position no problem! i hope the beta testing makes some changes because right now seems like terrans are gonna be really really bad in HotS
Recall takes 150 energy so you're taking a big hit. You need to save up 3 chronos which you cant spend on probes, upgrades or what have you.
Blizzard just aknowledges that if the protoss army gets cornered and it dies, the protoss is almost dead. Yeah you can warp in some new units but you've lost way too much if you lose your entire army.
It could be OP, but on the other hand Protoss doesnt have medivacs to pickup and escape, nor are their units super fast like the zergs'. And of course you use your forcefields in the battle so you dont have many to cover your escape.
On June 09 2012 16:47 squidster wrote: This game seems amazing. People don't need to worry about balance right now, it'll be fixed and tweaked over time... metagames will develop and things will be ok.
But as for the state of the game, it seems much more brood war esque and seems to reward better play much more.
The oracle seems to be a unit that early game is gonna be a little annoying (requires apm to have units / drones atk it) but late game is gonna be just a test of who has more apm. Swarm host seems to move the game in a direction where the fights last much longer and are much more back and forth tempo based, kind of like how brood war fights would last for a long time across multiple screens.
The mine looks like it'll be another thing that early game, every pro will be able to split and take minimal damage, but late game in big fights it'll be potentially devastating and incredibly hard to avoid the dmg from it.
Strategy wise the game looks to be more interesting as well. What can instant energy max from mothership core do with early sentry pushes? How about defensive teching with only 1 or 2 sentries who can forcefield 20 times.
Tempest looking to make the game look way more interesting late game and making positions matter so much more.
Anywho I'm really excited for this game.
I agree, it looks fun and interesting. Balance will be sorted out later.
About the sentries... i think you can only recharge one unit and perhaps there will be a cooldown on how fast you can you can recharge the next one. So it wont be too easy to charge up all your sentries. You might charge a couple of them (that's 4 forcefields) but that's it.
On June 09 2012 17:06 gh0st wrote: The abduct ability looks cartoony and dumb. It pushes the whole suspend disbelief thing to accept that this flying defiler thing can go all "get over here" scorpion-style to a massive 'toss war machine (colossus), which must weigh some ungodly amount. it just looks really really stupid.
It looked even dumber when it pulled a big fat Thor in the TvZ showmatch.
I just dont get it.
What's the purpose of the swarm host? It looks out of character with the rest of zerg units too.
It's to provide the Zerg with a mid game siege unit so that they dont need to tech to broods to end a game, or force an engagement.
On June 09 2012 18:46 -Archangel- wrote: I remember playing that hots custom map after blizzcon against a friend and remember thinking if oracle entomb stays as it is I will not be buying hots and lol now I see it is same Entomb is the most unfun ability to play against. I woud rather suffer any kind of real units harras then constant Entombs.
How about losing a Nexus because the Terran caught you out of position and dropped 1 or 2 medivacs, stimmed and destroyed it? Nothing compares with losing a base and Terrans can do it pretty easily.
Just a few hours ago Grubby spotted MKP's drops coming, didnt allow him to land, and MKP dropped elsewhere while pushing at the front. Grubby couldnt respond in time, lost the main nexus and was severely behind, losing the match.
When I see the effectiveness of the Oracle, I feel very worried. Depending on the progress, I currently see the PvZ metagame shift to something like 1 gate 1 core 1 stargate -> oracles (sort of Nony 2 phoenix but then Oracles) and that completely shutting down any Zerg economy or chance to get into the game while Protoss safely expands and gears up.
I mean, after all, if one has no money, they are no threat? I hope this gets looked at, but we will see
On June 09 2012 21:38 Aelonius wrote: When I see the effectiveness of the Oracle, I feel very worried. Depending on the progress, I currently see the PvZ metagame shift to something like 1 gate 1 core 1 stargate -> oracles (sort of Nony 2 phoenix but then Oracles) and that completely shutting down any Zerg economy or chance to get into the game while Protoss safely expands and gears up.
I mean, after all, if one has no money, they are no threat? I hope this gets looked at, but we will see
If they spend all of their gas on oracles, then just build some units and go kill them.
What, vortex doesn't affect flying units and no more cloaking on mothership, and a bunch of locusts now to add to their army of free units? Cmon, late game BL/infestor was OP enough. The tempest is also no good, I don't care it has an insane range, it shoots and moves slowly, doesn't do splash and it doens't have a ton of HP, it'll get owned by corruptors the same way carriers did. Zerg doesn't even need to use abducts on it, save those for the colossus and mothership.
The only viable strategy now seems to be harass with oracle and warp prisms and slowly pick off their army, using mass recalls from mothership and mothership core until you have a bigger economy. Wait, I thought that's what zerg was supposed to do. And not even that, the fact you are guaranteed to lose a direct late game engagement is just stupid and it'll make the matchup boring. TvZ seems even more imba.
On June 09 2012 21:38 Aelonius wrote: When I see the effectiveness of the Oracle, I feel very worried. Depending on the progress, I currently see the PvZ metagame shift to something like 1 gate 1 core 1 stargate -> oracles (sort of Nony 2 phoenix but then Oracles) and that completely shutting down any Zerg economy or chance to get into the game while Protoss safely expands and gears up.
I mean, after all, if one has no money, they are no threat? I hope this gets looked at, but we will see
They are really good, and easily kept the protoss in the game in the battle report. In fact it's the reason why he won, the zerg was floating like 2k gas and had no minerals.
On the other hand, Protoss was losing pretty much every straight up fight with very little map control. It's clear that there's no chance of winning at all without the oracle against vipers/swarmhosts/speed hydras.
Personally I don't think it's completely broken. The zerg player could have dealt with it a little bit better too.. Balance by imbalance units for every race is quite possible and very fun to play as demonstrated by BW.
On June 10 2012 00:22 AiurConnection wrote: What, vortex doesn't affect flying units and no more cloaking on mothership, and a bunch of locusts now to add to their army of free units? Cmon, late game BL/infestor was OP enough. The tempest is also no good, I don't care it has an insane range, it shoots and moves slowly, doesn't do splash and it doens't have a ton of HP, it'll get owned by corruptors the same way carriers did. Zerg doesn't even need to use abducts on it, save those for the colossus and mothership.
Actually with their insane range you can actually defend them effectively from corruptors with archon/stalker mix. After all the range is so huge that corruptors will have to pass a whole bunch of AA units.
They are really good, and easily kept the protoss in the game in the battle report. In fact it's the reason why he won, the zerg was floating like 2k gas and had no minerals.
On the other hand, Protoss was losing pretty much every straight up fight with very little map control. It's clear that there's no chance of winning at all without the oracle against vipers/swarmhosts/speed hydras.
Personally I don't think it's completely broken. The zerg player could have dealt with it a little bit better too.. Balance by imbalance units for every race is quite possible and very fun to play as demonstrated by BW.
If you ever doubted that the battle report was implausible, consider that the Zerg had corruptors and let that oracle live anyway.
I also thought the P player should have skipped the tempests in favor of more colossi.
Too many cheap imitations of old Brood War units, why not just port the originals?
I'm all for creating new and exciting units, and I'm also willing to support just bringing back BW units into the game if necessary, but this middle ground of "new units that do original/cool stuff but not really" really makes no sense.
I've watched the Battle Report, and I really like the Tempest concept. 22 range... Unless those bad boys are super-expensive, they could make a good victory fleet. Get some observers/smaller craft to sightline, and... well I'll just wait for the game to come out and see for myself.
Question - if you have a Mothership on the field, can you make a new Mothership Core since you now have 0? Because I'd still want those core abilities.
Something that bugs me personally not concerning the units is the worker count on hatcheries/nexus/CC. Talk about lowering the skill level. I feel like something like that, while not a big deal, should not be included. There shouldn't be any mechanic that actually lowers the skill ceiling in an RTS... It'd be like having a mechanic that automatically splits marines (obviously the worker counter isn't as impactful but they serve the same purpose)
I know pros don't necessarily like it when people change the game they play for a living but I am excited for the possible new dimensions of the game that this expansion can provide for the melee.
On June 10 2012 04:31 Lovely_US wrote: Something that bugs me personally not concerning the units is the worker count on hatcheries/nexus/CC. Talk about lowering the skill level. I feel like something like that, while not a big deal, should not be included. There shouldn't be any mechanic that actually lowers the skill ceiling in an RTS... It'd be like having a mechanic that automatically splits marines (obviously the worker counter isn't as impactful but they serve the same purpose)
On June 09 2012 21:38 Aelonius wrote: When I see the effectiveness of the Oracle, I feel very worried. Depending on the progress, I currently see the PvZ metagame shift to something like 1 gate 1 core 1 stargate -> oracles (sort of Nony 2 phoenix but then Oracles) and that completely shutting down any Zerg economy or chance to get into the game while Protoss safely expands and gears up.
I mean, after all, if one has no money, they are no threat? I hope this gets looked at, but we will see
They are really good, and easily kept the protoss in the game in the battle report. In fact it's the reason why he won, the zerg was floating like 2k gas and had no minerals.
On the other hand, Protoss was losing pretty much every straight up fight with very little map control. It's clear that there's no chance of winning at all without the oracle against vipers/swarmhosts/speed hydras.
Personally I don't think it's completely broken. The zerg player could have dealt with it a little bit better too.. Balance by imbalance units for every race is quite possible and very fun to play as demonstrated by BW.
If toss had one oracle for each base that game would have been so easy to win. You cannot stop entomb ability without flying units to kill the oracle and micro needed to entomb minerals is way less then what is needed to destroy shields on each mineral and send all workers in all bases back to mining.
On the other hand toss player didn't use a single feedback in all the fights. Vipers as big flying units are such an easy target for feedback it is not even funny. But to be fair Zerg building only hydras for most of the match was dumb as shit. Yes, Hydra move faster but are still the same useless unit that gets 2shoted by colossi and cannot kill zealot/stalker armies without roaches to tank.
On June 10 2012 04:31 Lovely_US wrote: Something that bugs me personally not concerning the units is the worker count on hatcheries/nexus/CC. Talk about lowering the skill level. I feel like something like that, while not a big deal, should not be included. There shouldn't be any mechanic that actually lowers the skill ceiling in an RTS... It'd be like having a mechanic that automatically splits marines (obviously the worker counter isn't as impactful but they serve the same purpose)
thats spectater mode only
Oh okay thats much better.
The oracle mineral blocking is kind of really strong... a little less health would be better.
I was opposed to the Viking transformation in WoL and now I am a staunch opponent of the Battlehelion transformation in HotS. Transformation can not take place within the vehicle model? Do Helion must change into a robot? Also, Warhoud can be designed in a million nicer ways.
On June 10 2012 04:31 Lovely_US wrote: Something that bugs me personally not concerning the units is the worker count on hatcheries/nexus/CC. Talk about lowering the skill level. I feel like something like that, while not a big deal, should not be included. There shouldn't be any mechanic that actually lowers the skill ceiling in an RTS... It'd be like having a mechanic that automatically splits marines (obviously the worker counter isn't as impactful but they serve the same purpose)
thats spectater mode only
Oh okay thats much better.
The oracle mineral blocking is kind of really strong... a little less health would be better.
They'll go over these in the beta. I won't be surprised if it becomes 60 or 50 hp.
They should just keep the carrier. No one has really used it in the Wings of Liberty but it has never caused any terrible balance issues. Its just a unit within the game for nostalgia I believe. If you want to mass the most expensive unit in the game go for it but no one has ever cried about carrier being imba. Very much like the void ray when you get like 200 / 200 fully upgraded and you kill off all your probes to get the maximum carrier count sure it is like a impossible force to break in a 4v4. But lets be realistic here for a minute. Unless the other team is god awful and does not realize the protoss took 4 bases before making a gateway and didn't harass or kill off them then they should lose to 200 / 200 carrier IMO. KEEP THE CARRIER
22 range? That's ridiculous! Not necessarily in a bad way, but if you spend two seconds thinking about it, why the hell doesn't Blizzard give the Carrier a range upgrade to something that blatantly inane? Plus that's just a huge number considering siege range is 13; this would almost double the previously longest ranged unit in the game. So why not just give that to the Carrier?
Are you sure someone didn't misread the tooltip? Like the difference between "Increases tempest range to 12" as opposed to increases tempest range by 12"?
edit:
Guess I'm suuuuper late to the party, damn I really want to see these units :o
Oracle: Interesting, very powerful. Hopefully the entomb shield should decrease in time. I am ok with the rest of the abilities.
Tempest: upgrade to 22 range, seriously ? I think max range should be 1 screen, that's it. I am trying to find the purpose of that range. Best thing would be to give it a reasonable range and a decent DPS. The tempest was supposed to fix PvZ with respect to Mutas, that changed.
Mothership Core: I want to see how it works when attacked. Life of the Core is added to the Nexus ? Can I attack it directly or what happens if I attack the Nexus direcly ? Vortex should still affect flying units.
Swarm Host: not a real siege unit, more of a defensive unit imo.
Viper: hopefully the cloud will affect bunkered units. Consume would look really cool if like the viper is latching itself to the building and eating it [but that won't happen] Abduct: really nice
Ultralisk: that was needed but they should also fix the attack AI. Keep the frenzy.
Hydra speed: finally, but it should be layer tech upgrade. I don't see many zerg switching to hydra late game. Both Protoss and Terran have good units to deal with hydras at Hive tech.
Widow Mine: interesting.
Warhound: the model looks stupid, but it is a powerful unit, especially since it can fire both its weapons at the same time.
I wonder if anyone isn't going to get this expansion because I know I won't. I think this expansion is really dumb and a lot of the units are just added fancy mess. I don't see how this will be any more difficult than the last.
Why can't they just make a Brood War but with modern day graphics.
On June 09 2012 08:06 Mortal wrote: 22 range? TWENTY TWO FUCKING RANGE? That just sounds ridiculous and bad. Ignoring the dps and what not, the concept of something shooting THAT far, is actually comical to say the least.
Eh but look at weak DPS , how much its cost and how slow it is. That range tell you other thing to , this units will be always undefented , if you move army closer , they gonna sit behind , little counter from side , and they are dead.
Blizzard says Tempest has shit damage, but...
In the video, there are 7 tempests. First volley takes out the front 2 siege tanks. So, 3/4 shots kill a siege tank. That works out to 50 damage a shot.
dps is not the same as damage, it has a freaking 6 second attack delay acording to the stats thread, it does about the dps of what a stalker does to armored units, slightly less dps then a stalker vs normal armored units and slightly more then a stalker vs massive Armored units, and less then half of the dps of a carrier
On June 09 2012 08:06 Mortal wrote: 22 range? TWENTY TWO FUCKING RANGE? That just sounds ridiculous and bad. Ignoring the dps and what not, the concept of something shooting THAT far, is actually comical to say the least.
Eh but look at weak DPS , how much its cost and how slow it is. That range tell you other thing to , this units will be always undefented , if you move army closer , they gonna sit behind , little counter from side , and they are dead.
Blizzard says Tempest has shit damage, but...
In the video, there are 7 tempests. First volley takes out the front 2 siege tanks. So, 3/4 shots kill a siege tank. That works out to 50 damage a shot.
dps is not the same as damage, it has a freaking 6 second attack delay acording to the stats thread, it does about the dps of what a stalker does to armored units, and less then half of the dps of a carrier even vs massive units.
So, now it has happend. Protoss can't never go out agaisnt terran. early, mid and latelate game was already heavily terran favored and now it will be whole match terran favored allways.Warhound will kill zealots what is the only thing that have kept protoss alive; they give time to kill terran army. And that another unit will do extra damage to every single protoss unit except zealot but warhound will counter it.
I'd like to talk about the aesthetics and cool factor for a bit.
1) The mothership core is badass. It's a giant spaceship hull hovering over a big base, ready to be fully powered up and fly! It's badass! I'm glad they kept it and i'm actually kind of sad the Terrans didnt get the big Thor. Zergs should get the Leviathan or something. That kind of big hero units are like fireworks, like buying a ferrari, like... you get my point.
2) The swarm host reminds me of those lotus troll pics. Kind of disgusting if you look at it for a long time.
3) Am i the only one who hates how the Terrans have become Protoss but with uglier and more clunky designs? I really hate how they get so many robot units and the transformers are too... well... childish if you ask me.
4) The Carrier is amazing when it launches its interceptors but the ship itself is kind of ugly in SC2. The Tempest lacks that "OMG A THOUSAND INTERCEPTORS BLOT OUT THE SUN" thing, but the ship itself is really cool imho.
On June 11 2012 00:46 TheBloodyDwarf wrote: So, now it has happend. Protoss can't never go out agaisnt terran. early, mid and latelate game was already heavily terran favored and now it will be whole match terran favored allways.Warhound will kill zealots what is the only thing that have kept protoss alive; they give time to kill terran army. And that another unit will do extra damage to every single protoss unit except zealot but warhound will counter it.
Looks like we protoss must change race.
I think you mean the Hellion. The Warhounds will destroy Stalkers, Immortals and Colossi.
Perhaps the correct combo to fight Terran Mech will be going air. Void Rays + Tempest + some little gateway support. I dunno, we'll see.
On June 11 2012 00:46 TheBloodyDwarf wrote: So, now it has happend. Protoss can't never go out agaisnt terran. early, mid and latelate game was already heavily terran favored and now it will be whole match terran favored allways.Warhound will kill zealots what is the only thing that have kept protoss alive; they give time to kill terran army. And that another unit will do extra damage to every single protoss unit except zealot but warhound will counter it.
Looks like we protoss must change race.
Have you ever played TvP? In the lategame, protoss is heavily favoured because zealots have to be kited forever, you have to do perfect EMPs and Vikings have to kill the colossi fast; if one of these three things is not perfect, you lose to any army of the same value in an equal game until then.
On June 11 2012 00:46 TheBloodyDwarf wrote: So, now it has happend. Protoss can't never go out agaisnt terran. early, mid and latelate game was already heavily terran favored and now it will be whole match terran favored allways.Warhound will kill zealots what is the only thing that have kept protoss alive; they give time to kill terran army. And that another unit will do extra damage to every single protoss unit except zealot but warhound will counter it.
Looks like we protoss must change race.
What? Please stop whining. In HotS it may become terran favorite, but now in WoL, seriously, are you implying T is OP? Please go play the game/read the dicussion on TL
IT I kinda like the changes, except Ultra charge and abduct. It's like Blizz wants to avoid people going deathball style using abilities that disrupt the baòll (Mine>you have to pull out the minde unit; abduct>a powerful unit is pulled out the ball;). IMHO they should just adjust the clumping editing the engine
Ok.. Pre beta, nothing is OP nothing is imbalanced... In fact Id suggest that making things more 'extreme' is healthy during beta because its easier to play-balance a unit that is being overused as opposed to one that's being underused.
So.. (and this should probably be several threads) how do you play and counter each of the new styles?
Teran mech:
From the Vid its clear that this remains immobile therefore PF and static defence is your friend.. (you cant abduct a bunker after all).. This is essentially the same as in WOL.. except that mech is more viable
Countering Teran mech
As Zerg:
Well you saw the Vid.. but I was underwhelmed by the terran strategy... Mech remains immobile and with weak AA.. consequently Air for the big battles and a mobile attack force of ling.. hydra whatever else is quick.. hydras seem the key because of their new speed plus awesome DPS. Ultras if yo have basically won but want to make sure they don't come back to life
As Protoss
Warp prism/oracle harass. then death-ball of stalker Immortal.. backed up by VR/tempest to break up choke points. (this is not exhaustive but that seems to broadly counter an immobile force that lacks AA)
Countering Zerg
Zerg are broadly reactive so I don't have the skills to prescribe a win all strategy.. However to beat them you will need a strong mix of AOE to nuke hydras plus anti air to keep those pesky vipers at bay. (anti air is never wasted against zerg at my level... there are always overlords to pop). Also drops to catch out al those greedy vipers that have been chewing on their own buildings.
For Protoss this leads to pretty much the same builds that have become familiar.. Zealot archon.. Blink stalker colossus.. Nony Phoenixes (you know the drill)
Terran seem to get stuck with The viking or mass marines as the only viable AA.. (Thor is too vulnerable and to weak against anything except poorly microed muta)
Countering Protoss
3 new units 2 air 1 building.. Mothership core would tent to make them more harass resistant as well as allowing some very annoying tactics.. (not sure if it can energise itself)
As terran
Vikings are always your friend.. If you don't have them then you are going to need to defend your mineral lines with bunkers missile turrets or PF.. Vikings seem the better option as they can nail the annoying thing when it becomes an 'arbiter wannabe' and cloaks the deathball.. they are also your only hope if you get hit with tempests.. although I suspect that some attacks by tempests will just be a way to lure your units to certain doom.
There is always a danger that the Protoss will ignore the shiny new units and nail you with stalkers or zealot archon so scouting is a must
As Zerg
Abduct their shiny expensive units with a viper and murder them with hydras... (try not to giggle) then sit back with the fact that you now have more ways to gank them than you did before.. lategame corruptors will be key (for the same reasons that terran need vikings)
Feel free to disagree but try to do so without using the terms OP or imbalanced
Damn ive been a terran player since Broodwar, but in HoTs im seriusly thinking of switching to Toss.. Im not feeling the terran new units, they seem underpowered.. the videos i saw, the mines take waaay 2 long to detonate, its VERY VERY easy to just split units and take the ones with the mines away seems really underpowered...
Toss on the other hand with the mothership core's teleport and energize, Tempest's retarded range and dmg and the oracle is looking amazing. I know its not the final build and some changes may be done before the release.. but still, terran is looking very underpowered IMHO, zerg is ok and Toss is looking damn fine. But like allways, only time will tell.
On June 11 2012 02:30 Excstazy wrote: Damn ive been a terran player since Broodwar, but in HoTs im seriusly thinking of switching to Toss.. Im not feeling the terran new units, they seem underpowered.. Cheers! =)
Some of these protoss changes are seriously unfair,they already have op units like colossus, voids, templars etc. The tempest has a ridiculous range and can attack both air and ground, while the oracle can stop terran and zerg playing aggressive and damages mid to late game economy. The zerg upgrades are pretty good, but as a terran player i think not enough has been done to help terran, especially with the changes that favour protoss.
Now that I think about it, I like these untis more than I did when I first read this. That Tempest has some insane range allright, but crazy stuff like that might just be what this game needs, that's bound to make for fun interesting games. I'm iffy about the oracle, preordain and mineral blocking sounds stupid and gimicky to me, respectively, but the mineral blocking might turn out to be another crazy thing that'll make the game more intersting. It might just be what we Protoss need vs. zergs with base advantages. Mothership core is a mixed bag. It sounds fun except for mass recall, I feel this'll make Protoss even more of an easy race. Don't like the new Mothership, Vortex ground units > archon toilet and then stunning all air units is just lame as fuck, I wish they'd just get rid of "hero" units.
Viper sounds great, as a Protoss player I'm glad they have abduct. That'll totally fuck up collossi wich are just idiotic units. This'll allow us to get buffed in other areas and to not rely on colossi.
Lastly, fuck transformers. Seriously Dustin, enough with the transformers.
Toss on the other hand with the mothership core's teleport and energize, Tempest's retarded range and dmg
Have you or anyone else complaining about the Tempest watched the match report video? It looked to me like the Tempest doesn't do much DPS at all; it was more or less just nibbling on the Zerg units and buildings.
On June 11 2012 01:49 zmansman17 wrote: Is it me or does the design of warhound and battle hellion look pretty bad relative to the new units?
Yes, they look like toys. The warhound in particular looks like an old wind up toy robot. Just compare the awesome design of the goliath from bw to terrible battle scv design of the warhound. The battle hellion does look that bad but I still feel like it needs some work.
warhound looks awful, i hope they change the model and remove his auto aim lasers. battle hellion needs to be an upgrade or/and unlocked with armory or something.marauder/hellion is strong enough, put a battle before the hellion and you start to smell the allins.
viper is ridiculous in his current state. swarm host looks so damn good but has the same weakness like broods infestors "wol ultras"they do shit on their own hydras speed should be lair or unlocked wit infestation or something.hive is just to late
tempest looks fine i don't mine the range when the dps is so low.seems to add a nice dynamic to toss. oracle has a great design i like the idea but its seems hard to balance this unit. i like the mothership/core, and also gives some nice scouting infos like if he is building it on 2base he will probably not going take a 3th very soon.
but i wonder the core becomes the mothership so if you build it can you then start the next core?
On June 11 2012 23:29 Evergrowth wrote: This will be a total different game from wing of liberty!
It will be exciting to watch the professional players evolving the game
Yes totally.
Also, I think that playing it at a lower level will be much funnier thanks to the additionnal diversity, and thus "crazyness", that will be added to SC2. It really makes me want to switch to random and play casually, instead of playing one race on Masters and working hard to stay there (got a job and other big passions, its hard to stay on masters with almost no practice, but the game is not fun enough at low level for my person. Old schoold nerd here).
Other features we have planned for around the time of launch include a groups and clans system; multilanguage support; Global Play, to allow players to play on different regional servers; and unranked matchmaking, so players can try playing different races or test new strategies without impacting their ladder ranking...
W00T no more buying smurfs!!!
I really love the intense love they are showing for the modding community, also.
I don't want to say that Terran got the worst units, it's impossible to say before i've even played the game, but I do however feel that Terran got the most boring units by far.
You know what the problem with these changes are? None of them look fun to play, and they just rape the concept of good game design.
Going to lose because of poor unit positioning? Fuck that, never again. Just pull his tanks to their death, or recall your army.
Being punished for not defending your nexus? Fuck that, just warp over your entire goddamned army, or just make it invisible.
Lose because your ability to scout and infer is poor? Fuck that, just scan his building and make EXACTLY what you need. Or just build a range 22 unit that serves as a mobile watch tower with a big fucking gun.
Step on a minefield? Fuck that, since the explosion is about a minute away, just leisurely relocate the affected units. No harm done.
Can't micro? Fuck that, just build a handful of units that spawn free units that can attack everything -- set it and forget it. Or build a range 22 ship you never even have to make leave home base, because it can already shoot across the entire fucking map.
Bad economy because you didn't make enough workers and kept supply blocking? Fuck that, just never let your opponent mine from any base ever again, who needs economy anyway?
On June 09 2012 06:31 GuitarBizarre wrote: I'm so, so very sad they're changing vortex. I hope that gets reverted back eventually. How can Blizzard possibly deny us things like that epic MVP vs Squirtle Archon toilet?
Because it's the gimmicky be all end all composition that Protoss can use to win any game they're behind in. It's not OP, mind you, there are are ways to deal with it. But it's so coin flippy and really doesn't add much to the game, punishing Terrans for successfully trying something new and Zergs for playing the game correctly. I like the direction they took this.
Anyhow, Funday Monday is going to take it to another level on HotS
Archonte toilet was probably the worst thing in Starcraft 2 (and I'm protoss), I'm really glad they removed this possibility and try to give others way for the protoss to counter zerg late game units. Now protoss will probably vortex the ground army (infestators, swarm host, hydras) and kill the BL with their tempests what is really strong to be honest. The BL will only have corruptor to defend them and corruptors have 5 range vs 22 range tempest.
So let's see, Protoss get two new units (including flying caster) and a caster structure, Zerg get two new units (including flying caster), and Terran, if DB's "widow mines aren't for pro play" comment is to be believed, get Warhounds. The unit with the lowest skill ceiling in the entire game. God forbid T ever gets new fun tricks to play with, and then Blizz has to come up with even more new ideas for Z and P, huh?
Like: Battlecruiser speed, Thor kept, Viper (look and play), Swarm Host (look and play), Hydralisk speed, Overseer kept, Changeling distance, Mothership Core, pre-Destructible rocks, obviously any visual improvements.
On the fence: Tempest (onoes 22 range, if only they could, like, bring it down through a patch if that turned out OP, or something! - I'd just rather they made Carriers play like this, instead), Oracle, Battle hellion, everything else that's not under Dislike.
Dislike: Warhound (another A-click unit, and its model is still horrendous), Reaper (nonsense upgrade + loss of speed + loss of building harass = what's the point?), Viper Mine (needs to be actually worth building).
Over-all it could have been a lot worse, but probably a lot better, too.
On June 12 2012 11:38 pure.Wasted wrote: So let's see, Protoss get two new units (including flying caster) and a caster structure, Zerg get two new units (including flying caster), and Terran, if DB's "widow mines aren't for pro play" comment is to be believed, get Warhounds. The unit with the lowest skill ceiling in the entire game. God forbid T ever gets new fun tricks to play with, and then Blizz has to come up with even more new ideas for Z and P, huh?
Like: Battlecruiser speed, Thor kept, Viper (look and play), Swarm Host (look and play), Hydralisk speed, Overseer kept, Changeling distance, Mothership Core, pre-Destructible rocks, obviously any visual improvements.
On the fence: Tempest (onoes 22 range, if only they could, like, bring it down through a patch if that turned out OP, or something! - I'd just rather they made Carriers play like this, instead), Oracle, Battle hellion, everything else that's not under Dislike.
Dislike: Warhound (another A-click unit, and its model is still horrendous), Reaper (nonsense upgrade + loss of speed + loss of building harass = what's the point?), Viper Mine (needs to be actually worth building).
Over-all it could have been a lot worse, but probably a lot better, too.
Reaper loss of speed, well, how many actually got that upgrade other then as a gimmick or cause "ive seen QXC and Thorzain do it a few times". Its not commonly used at all therefore I applaud an attempt in getting a upgrade that will be used in. Either that or get speed back to rax tech, at fact its pretty useless.
Warhound, I agree. Looks terrible and uninteresting but then again, I dont want a war of casters either so adding some regular units is imo very good and hopefully they can balance battlehellions and warhounds so that mech is viable in all MUs.
Widow mine... if DB have said its not for pro level then fuck it.. why add units that they already claim wont work at the top? Thats pretty dumb imo. There are tons of custom maps etc to play around with, let the actual game be balanced for the very top please.. its supposed to be an e-sport.
Tempest 22 range. I myself like this alot (I am not a protoss) not that I think it dont have the possibility of being silly OP, I just like the idea of adding unique units with something completly unseen.
Hydra speed!!! Finally! But please, not at hive tech. Id rather have a weaker hydra with earlier speed. Lets make zerg zergish!
And I must ask, "even more" tricks for Z and P? how have terran been left out in the tricks departement before?. From what I can see theres been a pretty equal amount of trickery from all races.
All in all, im optimistic, it looks like it can be fun to play but I do feel they could have added something more for terran, or switch out the widow mine. Terran probably have the most complete/fun unit selection in WoL but here they have definatly been left behind abit.
Lets remember that the Beta hasnt even started yet. ALOT can happen and any sort of balance discussion is obviously premature since the units have yet to be actually balanced :p. Hope I get to try the beta!
Toss on the other hand with the mothership core's teleport and energize, Tempest's retarded range and dmg
Have you or anyone else complaining about the Tempest watched the match report video? It looked to me like the Tempest doesn't do much DPS at all; it was more or less just nibbling on the Zerg units and buildings.
it doesnt do alot of damage. its 22 vs air and 33 vs ground iirc. and its a slow slow attackspeed. They cant really make it a heavy hitter without reducing the range to something more siegetankish Id say.
22range with slow speed slow attackspeed and "weak attacks".. sounds fine to me =) i do realize that 33dmg isnt superlittle but for 300-300 its definatly not alot compared to many other units :p
On June 12 2012 00:57 M7Jagger wrote: I don't want to say that Terran got the worst units, it's impossible to say before i've even played the game, but I do however feel that Terran got the most boring units by far.
Id say thats a pretty objective truth :p. they should definatly scrap widowmine and add something else again.. I liked the shredder.
Alright as a random player, I feel less biased when it comes to balance and what not so here's my two cents.
Zerg
I LOVE the return of hydralisks as a viable unit. Too many mass roach compositions made ZvP pretty dull and repetitive. Im ecstatic about this buff.
I like the viper a lot. It will be pretty standard unit in all matchups, with the cloud being more effective vs Terran, and the abduct ability being better against Protoss. The new consume-esque ability is pretty awesome, but could be slightly OP. (Using extra evo-chambers as walls/a way to gain energy. I have to say that Abduct looks a bit stupid, but it's a way to pull apart the Protoss deathball I guess.
I think the swarm host really fits the "disposable units" mentality that Zerg has. Im happy that they were nerfed a bit since the first reveal, and I think burrowing them at separate times to create a constant flow of free locusts to annoy, and eventually draw turtling players out of their base can be used as a pretty interesting trap mechanic. I would probably be more excited for the lurker, but the swarm host is still pretty cool.
Ultralisks do NOT need the burrow charge. Ultra/ling/infestor already can dominate the late game. I'll admit that the ultralisks pathfinding sucks, but if you're struggling using ultras, you're probably engaging in ultra-stupid chokes, or allowing yourself to be kited by not supplementing infestors.
Side note: Giving banelings a burrow move upgrade would be SO OP. It would force all three races to invest in static or mobile detection, and just be dumbing down the game. You should have the foresight to place banelings in common attack paths and routes, and it would take far less skill to be able to move them.
I think making mech a viable option in TvP is awesome, but the transformer units bother me design wise. I would prefer the Goliath returning with a range upgrade to be a colossus/tempest counter/brood lord counter (rather than investing in Vikings (who are too expensive and fragile to fight on the ground after the air threats are gone) and maybe a stimless "heavy firebat" from a tech labbed barracks.
The war hound is the robust ground unit Terran needs to fight the notorious protoss death-ball, but I dislike the design a lot. It has potential to make TvT a much shorter matchup. I like the idea, just not the look.
An idea I had would be to make widow mines deployable by ghosts. They look really awkward running around by themselves, and rushing to widow mines early could contain a Protoss that has no detection. Zerg players can sacrifice cheap zerglings to destroy mines, but Protoss players have all expensive tier 1 units, so contains would be too easy. This would make a Terran need to get a ghost academy to use the mine, thus making the potentially overpowered min
The Battle cruiser has needed a buff for awhile. The dps and mobility have both been far to weak to make a difference in combat, and usually if you are engaging an enemy with battle cruisers it's a one way trip. Red line reactor may look a bit silly, but it makes sense.
Let me start by saying I like the idea of combat drugs, but it doesn't suit the reaper and the reapers strength. The point of a reaper is to be quick and agile while harassing, not to be more to robust. If I was making the decision, I would make the reaper build as fast as it originally did, and make nitro packs available without the factory, and just take 20 or so seconds longer to research.
Protoss has some decent additions. I can definitely see the oracle being a huge pain in the ass, but the final cost and build time will be the biggest deciding factor on whether they are cost effective or not. The mothership core looks interesting, but I'd have to see it in action first. The tempest is going to be controversial, but the low dps and high cost make the long range not so overpowered imho.
That's my two cents, either way im excited as hell and ready for the release
I honestly cannot understand the choice of making a "Widow Mine".
They removed the Lurker from the Zerg arsenal and gave it to the Terran (Hellion, only its cheaper and easier to make than the Lurker). They removed the Scourge from the Zerg arsenal and are giving it to the Terran (Widow Mine, only it doesnt require you to "hit" the unit you want to kill, they just have to get close and it sticks instantly to them).
"Won't be used in pro level"... are you freaking kidding me?
Now of course there can be very limited uses of the Widow Mine in TvZ and TvT. When faced against and huge army of zerglings or marines is it really worth it to spend 75min25gas to kill a single unit (assuming at the pro level they can seperate affected units quickly)? No it wont be worth it. Late game where more expensive units are moving around, then maybe.
But to have a guaranteed kill of a Stalker or Sentry? You get back more than what you invested. Even if it "only" hits a Zealot you'll still come close to even (75min25gas vs 100min). Not exactly even but close. And thats still assuming perfect micro where you can move the affected unit out of the group.
Simply put the Widow Mine is a "burrowed baneling" that has a reasonably big range that is specifically designed to counter armies made up of individually expensive units (assuming perfect pro level micro).
What can Protoss armies be described as? armies made up of individually expensive units.
I forsee Widow Mines being used in (almost) every single TvP.
Why people are raging about the Tempest's 22 range? It have slow DPS and range is upgrade. Personally I'am more concerned about zerg's Viper with it's abduction skill. It gives the zerg way too much crowd control. You just pull colossus/thor from the army and you have basically lost the backbone of the army. Especially protoss' army and terran's mech build. Blizzard have thought about these things.
EPT
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![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/staff/Waxangel/hots_anaheim/WarHound.jpg)
