• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 14:08
CEST 20:08
KST 03:08
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
Power Rank - Esports World Cup 202560RSL Season 1 - Final Week9[ASL19] Finals Recap: Standing Tall15HomeStory Cup 27 - Info & Preview18Classic wins Code S Season 2 (2025)16
Community News
BSL Team Wars - Bonyth, Dewalt, Hawk & Sziky teams10Weekly Cups (July 14-20): Final Check-up0Esports World Cup 2025 - Brackets Revealed19Weekly Cups (July 7-13): Classic continues to roll8Team TLMC #5 - Submission re-extension4
StarCraft 2
General
The GOAT ranking of GOAT rankings Power Rank - Esports World Cup 2025 What tournaments are world championships? RSL Revival patreon money discussion thread Jim claims he and Firefly were involved in match-fixing
Tourneys
Esports World Cup 2025 Sparkling Tuna Cup - Weekly Open Tournament FEL Cracov 2025 (July 27) - $8000 live event Master Swan Open (Global Bronze-Master 2) Sea Duckling Open (Global, Bronze-Diamond)
Strategy
How did i lose this ZvP, whats the proper response
Custom Maps
External Content
Mutation #239 Bad Weather Mutation # 483 Kill Bot Wars Mutation # 482 Wheel of Misfortune Mutation # 481 Fear and Lava
Brood War
General
BGH Auto Balance -> http://bghmmr.eu/ BW General Discussion Dewalt's Show Matches in China [Update] ShieldBattery: 2025 Redesign Ginuda's JaeDong Interview Series
Tourneys
[Megathread] Daily Proleagues CSL Xiamen International Invitational [CSLPRO] It's CSLAN Season! - Last Chance [BSL 2v2] ProLeague Season 3 - Friday 21:00 CET
Strategy
Does 1 second matter in StarCraft? [G] Mineral Boosting Simple Questions, Simple Answers
Other Games
General Games
Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread Nintendo Switch Thread [MMORPG] Tree of Savior (Successor of Ragnarok) Path of Exile CCLP - Command & Conquer League Project
Dota 2
Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
TL Mafia Community Thread Vanilla Mini Mafia
Community
General
Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine Stop Killing Games - European Citizens Initiative Russo-Ukrainian War Thread US Politics Mega-thread Post Pic of your Favorite Food!
Fan Clubs
SKT1 Classic Fan Club!
Media & Entertainment
[\m/] Heavy Metal Thread Anime Discussion Thread Movie Discussion! [Manga] One Piece Korean Music Discussion
Sports
Formula 1 Discussion 2024 - 2025 Football Thread TeamLiquid Health and Fitness Initiative For 2023 NBA General Discussion
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Installation of Windows 10 suck at "just a moment" Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread
TL Community
The Automated Ban List
Blogs
Ping To Win? Pings And Their…
TrAiDoS
momentary artworks from des…
tankgirl
from making sc maps to makin…
Husyelt
StarCraft improvement
iopq
Socialism Anyone?
GreenHorizons
Eight Anniversary as a TL…
Mizenhauer
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 1033 users

[SC2B] Under the Microscope - Page 8

Forum Index > News
265 CommentsPost a Reply
Prev 1 6 7 8 9 10 14 Next All
WhistlingMtn
Profile Joined May 2010
United States190 Posts
July 11 2010 16:12 GMT
#141
Well written, but honestly I think there is still a lot of what you're missing, you just want a greater degree of it. I think the race that has most drastically changed is zerg, zerg had this really heavy micro/low economy feel to it in sc1 focusing on massive micro of mutas/zerglings/scourge, but now it's mostly a heavy economy defensive game until you start massing hydras with infestors in tow.

I wouldn't be shocked if the first expansion comes with several splash damage units and casters. Wings of Liberty coming with mostly balanced even-keel units, and then the expansion brings with it some over-powered units that bring boom/bust micro into the play.
gREIFOCs
Profile Joined April 2010
Argentina208 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-07-11 16:18:11
July 11 2010 16:16 GMT
#142
On July 11 2010 12:27 Slardarxt wrote:
I couldn't agree more with this article, perfectly sound logical arguments,


The only reasoning is: "It's different, therefore is bad". That's neither logical or sounding. Is just what old people say about the internet. The game is different, but you could argue that by having less single events that change the whole dynamic of the game, you encourage the win by the player that is more skillfull.

If I can change the game with a storm, someone else can change it with a LUCKY storm.

I prefer having more steamrolling games when the players are of different skill levels, than seeing the underdog going for gimmicks trying to get the skilled player off his game.

Let the best win. And for that, the less singularities, the better.

I won't account the spectator side of starcraft because the article talks about dynamics that a average spectator doesn't grasp.

Also, I'm not stating my opinion, but another valid point of view. What i'm trying to say is: We are discussing taste.

On July 11 2010 12:27 Slardarxt wrote:albeit we haven't given SC2 the benefit of the doubt or a chance to "develop" regardless of how truly lacking the game play is.


I think the current state of the meta game is: Delirious.

We are still in beta, playing a game that didn't even came out, and we are allready ranting on how we are doomed.

Also, the developments in therms of gameplay come from the players. We are still too biased from SC1 when we look SC2 and treat it too differently and complain that we can't treat it similarly.

To those I say, try SC1 tactics, and you'll see that they actually work. You just where deluted with the new macro dynamics.

Today we are playing starcraft at our base. That will change, when someone get's out of the base and change the dynamic of the game.
Don't work hard. You die at the end anyway, dummy.
Random()
Profile Blog Joined August 2004
Kyrgyz Republic1462 Posts
July 11 2010 16:38 GMT
#143
Okay, SC2 is not SC1. So what? You can't expect Blizzard to deliberately introduce pathing bugs that made reaver shots / mines so exciting, can you? You just can't take whatever it was that you liked in SC1 and put it into SC2, it just won't work. It's a different game, a different engine, a different UI.

And why would you anyway? If you want to play BW, go play BW. But stop bashing unreleased game for not being as perfect as you'd like. Just give it time to evolve and stabilize, wait for expansions and the patches.
palexhur
Profile Joined May 2010
Colombia730 Posts
July 11 2010 16:39 GMT
#144
Well this article reminds me 5 years ago when AoC (Age of Empires:the Conquerors expansion) players (including me) said that some things in AoE3 just broke the original conception of its predecessor as an excellent RTS game, new players just rant out about giving the game more time, tactics over APM nerds, and blah blah blah, right now, AoE3 is just a game without community , tournies or fun, and AoC has its 2k players community (It is 9 years old) and some tournies with even USD10k price, so You, the new guys, those that dont listen, just read again and press Blizzard to give you the maximize experience, because right now , It is not comparing a 10 yrs old game vs a Beta game, It is 10 yrs of experience gained by everybody including the companies to put the best in a game that has the biggest RTS community in the world because of SC1, It is true, games evolve with players but sometimes you can nail things that block the evolution. Right now even though I am not a SC player from my spectator point of view as a RTS player, I get excited watching pro SC scene and get boring watching the top SC2 scene, so dont go into the battle BW vs SC2, go for the battle that makes a diference between a classic game and a good one.
palanq
Profile Blog Joined December 2004
United States761 Posts
July 11 2010 16:43 GMT
#145
There are important timing windows in SC2, of this I am sure (when does storm finish? when is that first thor coming out? expansion timing?)

There are also the potential for a lot of significant unit interactions, but the most complex ones (e.g. between lurker/ling/defiler vs medic/marine/scivessel) come lategame so it will take a while for those compositions to be fully explored. HSM anyone? Ghosts vs templar?
time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana
alexpnd
Profile Blog Joined March 2009
Canada1857 Posts
July 11 2010 16:47 GMT
#146
I love mines
www.brainyweb.ca //web stuff!
Brazen[six]
Profile Joined June 2010
Canada203 Posts
July 11 2010 16:50 GMT
#147
Well written article, however I think it's much too early to draw these type of conclusions. You're comparing 10 years of BW to SC2 which hasn't even come out yet. I'm fairly confident that in the next few years, SC2 is going to evolve and we'll see much of the same potential and dynamics you're talking about.
Reborn8u
Profile Blog Joined January 2010
United States1761 Posts
July 11 2010 16:53 GMT
#148
My biggest gripe in sc2 is the attitude of "Oh that unit does something cool and unintended..... better patch it!"
:)
No_eL
Profile Joined July 2007
Chile1438 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-07-11 17:06:54
July 11 2010 17:04 GMT
#149
i think the same thing.. i cant understand why the majority of people just think that sc2 its nice because its new and look cool. The important thing its under the graphics, and many of us need more from the game than only beatiful glowing things. Im not happy with the micro issues and the easier mechanics i have only 1 month or less of practic and i have more wins and control sensation than 4 years of hard sc:bw training, how can it be! I missed the hard part of the game that part that make you have respect from pro players and give u crazy needs to watch osl or msl finals.

Something is lost, and i hope here or in dev blizzard hq someone had the answer to give us back the power of starcraft broodwar in this new stage.

ps: i think that one of the best signs about this sc2 deep problem its the fact of having so many low count posting users defending the new game and so many old players having serious doubts about the game.
Beat after beat i will become stronger.
No_eL
Profile Joined July 2007
Chile1438 Posts
July 11 2010 17:09 GMT
#150
On July 12 2010 01:39 palexhur wrote:
Well this article reminds me 5 years ago when AoC (Age of Empires:the Conquerors expansion) players (including me) said that some things in AoE3 just broke the original conception of its predecessor as an excellent RTS game, new players just rant out about giving the game more time, tactics over APM nerds, and blah blah blah, right now, AoE3 is just a game without community , tournies or fun, and AoC has its 2k players community (It is 9 years old) and some tournies with even USD10k price, so You, the new guys, those that dont listen, just read again and press Blizzard to give you the maximize experience, because right now , It is not comparing a 10 yrs old game vs a Beta game, It is 10 yrs of experience gained by everybody including the companies to put the best in a game that has the biggest RTS community in the world because of SC1, It is true, games evolve with players but sometimes you can nail things that block the evolution. Right now even though I am not a SC player from my spectator point of view as a RTS player, I get excited watching pro SC scene and get boring watching the top SC2 scene, so dont go into the battle BW vs SC2, go for the battle that makes a diference between a classic game and a good one.


totally agree +1
Beat after beat i will become stronger.
Cofo
Profile Blog Joined June 2010
United States1388 Posts
July 11 2010 17:22 GMT
#151
I agree with the OP.

That being said, some of these things just can't be helped. Blizzard can't be expected to keep certain archaic and clearly inferior game elements, just because it made the game more competitive in the long run. Making "improvements" in the areas that they did is the completely logical decision. Like I said though, I do agree with the OP, and it is my sincere hope that with patches and expansion units, Blizzard can bring more "unit potential" as well as more micro into SC2.
+ Show Spoiler +
Ursadon-n-Pals
Profile Blog Joined November 2009
United States928 Posts
July 11 2010 17:32 GMT
#152
Very well written.
I definitely agree with this article. BW is just as fun to watch as SC2 even without all the shiny graphics because the control dynamics were so amazing in BW.
Nothing worth having comes easy.
Jackal03
Profile Joined October 2009
Brazil7469 Posts
July 11 2010 17:56 GMT
#153
i think star 2 may be good to play, but it's not good to watch
BW is back
pheus
Profile Joined February 2010
Australia161 Posts
July 11 2010 18:01 GMT
#154
On July 11 2010 20:29 entropius wrote:
Disclaimer: I'm nowhere near a top player.

I think what's missing from SC2 is an element of uncertainty. In SC1 (especially against Protoss, but also against Terran) there's the constant danger of getting a pile of units obliterated in the blink of an eye by things like storm, spider mines, and reavers.

A SC1 game was a constant dynamic between units that are fragile to splash damage but statistically superior (marines, zerglings, mutas, hydras) and the splash abilities that people use to try to kill them. Like the OP said, SC1 took a bunch of unbalanced things and made them balanced. SC1 was like a duel with swords -- one slipup and you get stabbed, and that's that.

SC2, on the other hand, is like a boxing match -- you grind people down with brute force over time. There's nothing as scary as storm, mines, or defilers. You can look at the composition of two armies and figure out who's going to win. Sure, flanks and concaves and so on matter, but not as much -- if you have colossi and a Terran doesn't have vikings you're probably going to just roll over him.

Perhaps this is just because I'm not as good a player at SC2 as I was at SC1 (very long ago), but in SC1 when playing PvZ I often teched templar first. Why? Because I knew I could rely on storm to provide both reliable defense and reliable offense, if I was on my toes. But now I hardly ever make templar -- sure, storm is still good, but it's not going to keep me alive against a zerg macro like SC1 storm would. How many Terran players have said "Oh, my opponent is amassing hydralisks, time to get Hunter-Seeker Missiles to blow them all up"? Not many. The few mass-damage AoE effects are just not strong enough to rely on.

Instead, we get spells that let you a-move better: Infested Terrans, Auto-Turrets, Point Defense Drone, Guardian Shield. In many ways all of these are just ways to simulate having more guys than you really do.

The "terrible damage" tricks just aren't able to keep up with the army composition/macro game; only another huge well-composed army will, and who wins comes down to concaves and flanking -- or just who has more dudes. It's strategic, but it's not as nailbiting.


I think this is a really great first post... I totally agree that there's no excitement when you can be fairly sure of the outcome prior to a battle. I don't feel we can say that this is a certainty for sc2, but it is something I'm worried about
stellarvector
Profile Joined May 2010
United States32 Posts
July 11 2010 18:10 GMT
#155
You know... I think that Blizzard sat down and looked at what they wanted to accomplish with Starcraft and how they could improve on the design. On a rational thought process, making a game easier to control is considered a general improvement to the game. Maybe that means that things are going to feel imba, maybe it means certain situations will always feel imba. But this shouldn't be new news for anyone who's participated in the Starcraft franchise. With the new, easier to control interface, it pretty much sets the game up for new ways and methods. We're going to see different styles of play and different reactions to things. Being resistant to change is a natural behavior, but I'm excited about what Starcraft 2 can do in experienced hands.

And, if it does turn out to be a huge disappointment... well- we can always just go back to brood war!
http://www.stellarvector.com
OHtRUe
Profile Blog Joined March 2010
United States283 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-07-11 18:20:06
July 11 2010 18:16 GMT
#156
I got to say i've never seen such stupidity EVER on teamliquid from all the people who disagree with Saracens post... Litterally some of the worst arguements and the most garbage fanboyism i've ever seen. Teamliquid is pretty much becoming the CoD IW forums with all these people who will die with there game and if anyone who disagrees is instantanously wrong...

SC2 is a dumbed down and garbage version of broodwar and there is NO argument against it. No it is not different its just plain easier and plain WORSE. Every single part of the game has disevolved Macro is easier, THERE IS ZERO MICRO THAT A MENTALLY DISABLED REDHEADED BABY COULDN'T DO, and people saying OH OH POSITIONING IS HARDER. No it fucking isnt, its because it's the only factor that influences battles. It's comparable to people in the CoD community saying oh theres more awareness needed, but that its not true because its the only thing there because there is zero gun skill.

Pretty much Dustin Browder removed all of the units that focused on micro and that could drastically shift the game with a skilled players hands. He replaced these with absolutely GARBAGE units that do not create any micro battles. Examples of this is forcefield which creates micro for one player and then the other player just has to take it up the fucking ass as there is nothing he can do to win the micro battle. Then theres this hard counter system where you litterally again have to take it up the ass as there is no micro that could help you win that battle. And then theres marauders that are the epitome of this as again YOU CANNOT MICRO AGAINST THEM. So pretty much you have no micro that you can do if your in a down hill position to make it favor you.

Pretty much unit compositions are the king and everything else that was based off of the skill of the player has been removed or nerfed heavily. Thats why this game will NEVER be as good as SC BW with the current design philosophy Blizzard is going for. Also this game is pretty much done evolving micro wise 2 MONTHS IN. And when people find these spectacular timings micro again will take the back seat....

To put in my words Blizzard created a C@C game instead of a Starcraft game.....
rezoacken
Profile Joined April 2010
Canada2719 Posts
July 11 2010 18:51 GMT
#157
Hmmm I don't know, this looks biased to me.

I am no prophet, therefore I won't say SC2 will fail or not. But what I know for sure is that the game will attract millions, therefore even if it is considered less good than BW it will become the most popular of the two; especially if a strong eSport community evolves from it.

Once the community is here and money is envolved, the game will evolve. Then we will see and agree or disagree that this is a good game or not, it will be a different game than BW but I hope it will be just a difference of tastes. One's must be blind to not see this game will have a long life. eSport is not a matter of what game is the best, it is a matter of how popular it is, even WoW has a eSport community even if it is absolute garbage from a spectator point of view and VERY limited from the player point of view.

Therefore, if I am correct and the game will be the major eSport RTS game of the next years. We must just hope it becomes better and better due to players and developers; being griefed by it not being BW will just make you angry... and well I don't see BW disapearing so if you like this one best stay on/watch it.
Either we are alone in the Universe or we are not. Both are equally terrifying.
Stuslegend
Profile Blog Joined August 2007
Canada168 Posts
July 11 2010 19:00 GMT
#158
i agree so much

its like for example, the arbiter in broodwar was a late game tech, took ages to produce and you have to research recall/stasis/and eventually the energy upgrade

but in sc2, you can basically do all that within like 6 mins - ie,
stasis = force field
pylon warp = recall
stork can have my kids in his mouth any time... no homo O_O'
gogogadgetflow
Profile Joined March 2010
United States2583 Posts
July 11 2010 19:13 GMT
#159
On July 12 2010 02:09 No_eL wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 12 2010 01:39 palexhur wrote:
Well this article reminds me 5 years ago when AoC (Age of Empires:the Conquerors expansion) players (including me) said that some things in AoE3 just broke the original conception of its predecessor as an excellent RTS game, new players just rant out about giving the game more time, tactics over APM nerds, and blah blah blah, right now, AoE3 is just a game without community , tournies or fun, and AoC has its 2k players community (It is 9 years old) and some tournies with even USD10k price, so You, the new guys, those that dont listen, just read again and press Blizzard to give you the maximize experience, because right now , It is not comparing a 10 yrs old game vs a Beta game, It is 10 yrs of experience gained by everybody including the companies to put the best in a game that has the biggest RTS community in the world because of SC1, It is true, games evolve with players but sometimes you can nail things that block the evolution. Right now even though I am not a SC player from my spectator point of view as a RTS player, I get excited watching pro SC scene and get boring watching the top SC2 scene, so dont go into the battle BW vs SC2, go for the battle that makes a diference between a classic game and a good one.


totally agree +1


Yes this x1000... and AOE3 has had years now
Teddyman
Profile Joined October 2008
Finland362 Posts
July 11 2010 19:21 GMT
#160
On July 12 2010 03:16 OHtRUe wrote:
Teamliquid is pretty much becoming the CoD IW forums with all these people who will die with there game and if anyone who disagrees is instantanously wrong...

SC2 is a dumbed down and garbage version of broodwar and there is NO argument against it.

It seems you're contributing nicely to that change.
"Chess is a dead game" -Bobby Fischer 2004
Prev 1 6 7 8 9 10 14 Next All
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
OSC
14:00
King of the Hill #219
davetesta22
Liquipedia
Esports World Cup
11:00
2025 - Final Day
Serral vs ClassicLIVE!
EWC_Arena32492
ComeBackTV 5048
TaKeTV 1275
JimRising 957
Hui .788
3DClanTV 699
Fuzer 454
EnkiAlexander 338
Rex266
CranKy Ducklings168
Reynor149
SpeCial96
LiquipediaDiscussion
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
EWC_Arena32492
JimRising 957
Hui .788
Fuzer 454
Rex 266
UpATreeSC 152
Reynor 149
SpeCial 96
JuggernautJason14
StarCraft: Brood War
Shuttle 2977
Bisu 2657
Mini 913
Larva 800
Soma 392
actioN 339
EffOrt 257
Rush 128
TY 102
JYJ77
[ Show more ]
Shine 68
sorry 32
Aegong 26
yabsab 24
sas.Sziky 22
zelot 19
Terrorterran 14
JulyZerg 11
Sacsri 9
NaDa 6
soO 5
Dota 2
420jenkins706
League of Legends
Trikslyr61
Counter-Strike
fl0m3752
sgares489
oskar211
Heroes of the Storm
Liquid`Hasu51
Other Games
gofns8880
FrodaN2318
tarik_tv2078
Beastyqt748
KnowMe191
crisheroes108
Organizations
StarCraft 2
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
sctven
[ Show 15 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• IndyKCrew
• sooper7s
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• Migwel
• intothetv
• LaughNgamezSOOP
• Kozan
StarCraft: Brood War
• FirePhoenix3
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
• BSLYoutube
Dota 2
• WagamamaTV961
League of Legends
• Nemesis4220
Other Games
• imaqtpie757
• Shiphtur350
Upcoming Events
CranKy Ducklings
15h 52m
BSL20 Non-Korean Champi…
19h 52m
CSO Cup
21h 52m
BSL20 Non-Korean Champi…
23h 52m
Bonyth vs Sziky
Dewalt vs Hawk
Hawk vs QiaoGege
Sziky vs Dewalt
Mihu vs Bonyth
Zhanhun vs QiaoGege
QiaoGege vs Fengzi
FEL
1d 14h
BSL20 Non-Korean Champi…
1d 19h
BSL20 Non-Korean Champi…
1d 23h
Bonyth vs Zhanhun
Dewalt vs Mihu
Hawk vs Sziky
Sziky vs QiaoGege
Mihu vs Hawk
Zhanhun vs Dewalt
Fengzi vs Bonyth
Sparkling Tuna Cup
3 days
Online Event
3 days
uThermal 2v2 Circuit
4 days
[ Show More ]
The PondCast
5 days
Replay Cast
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

CSL Xiamen Invitational
Championship of Russia 2025
Murky Cup #2

Ongoing

Copa Latinoamericana 4
Jiahua Invitational
BSL20 Non-Korean Championship
Esports World Cup 2025
CC Div. A S7
Underdog Cup #2
IEM Cologne 2025
FISSURE Playground #1
BLAST.tv Austin Major 2025
ESL Impact League Season 7
IEM Dallas 2025
PGL Astana 2025
Asian Champions League '25

Upcoming

CSLPRO Last Chance 2025
ASL Season 20: Qualifier #1
ASL Season 20: Qualifier #2
ASL Season 20
CSLPRO Chat StarLAN 3
BSL Season 21
RSL Revival: Season 2
Maestros of the Game
SEL Season 2 Championship
uThermal 2v2 Main Event
FEL Cracov 2025
HCC Europe
ESL Pro League S22
StarSeries Fall 2025
FISSURE Playground #2
BLAST Open Fall 2025
BLAST Open Fall Qual
Esports World Cup 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall Qual
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2025 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.