EPTThe Altitude TL Invitational - [Over] - Page 14
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DreamOen
Spain1400 Posts
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Vei
United States2845 Posts
Thinking of it that way is very interesting, usually thousandth place decimals seem very insignificant. Awesome games/awesome series, great lineup. I hope to see more of all those four players. + Show Spoiler + need more Korean players in future tournaments! it would be amazing if you could make it happen^^ Tester was fantastic to watch, the preemptive FF at the ramp was clutch on-the-fly decision making. | ||
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TriniMasta
United States1323 Posts
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ChickenLips
2912 Posts
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darktreb
United States3019 Posts
On May 31 2010 06:57 RoMarX wrote: this. because of the easier engine in sc2, strategy > mechanical monkeys. and thats great. Did you SC2-only fans know? Elite players like Flash and Jaedong were and are vastly superior to guys like Tester in every imaginable way in Broodwar. Mechanically, strategically, mind games, everything. So unless for some reason Tester's inferior strategic abilities at BW will translate to being superior strategically at SC2, there's very little reason to believe that Flash or JD wouldn't quickly rise to the top of SC2 as well. | ||
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Hanneslol
1 Post
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tosS.ita
Italy523 Posts
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kzn
United States1218 Posts
On June 04 2010 07:09 darktreb wrote: Did you SC2-only fans know? Elite players like Flash and Jaedong were and are vastly superior to guys like Tester in every imaginable way in Broodwar. Mechanically, strategically, mind games, everything. So unless for some reason Tester's inferior strategic abilities at BW will translate to being superior strategically at SC2, there's very little reason to believe that Flash or JD wouldn't quickly rise to the top of SC2 as well. Not that I disagree with you, but its pretty hard to evaluate an SCBW player in an incomplete fashion - what makes you think that Flash/Jaedong are better than Tester purely with reference to strategy? | ||
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tjkamikaz
United Kingdom1 Post
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Drazzzt
Germany999 Posts
Thanks to TL and Altitude for making this tournament possible and happen! Things like that make the Beta really yummy :-) Games wrap up: + Show Spoiler + Unfortunately, most games were a bit one-sided, even though some were nice to watch and good to learn from. Observations: * Tester's play was impeccable. I'd love to have him seen challenged a bit more though * Idra is as stubborn as ever and chokes if matched up against a supposedly better player (to his credit: He also starts gg-ing if this is the case :-) ) * White-ra's first game against Tester was terrible. Was he so intimidated? Bad decision making, bad micro... The games against TLO were great though, especially the collossi on LT * TLO's play was quite disappointing to me, probably as I am a huge fan of him. I guess he simply had a bad day (is he playing Terran now?) * I have to correct myself: TLO's first game against Idra was absolutely amazing (Idra played amazing as well). I guess he could have fared better when EMPing the infestors from time to time and if he had mixed 1-2 BCs earlier into his vikings. Plus: Some marauders and less tanks (to have more gas for vikings) would have been beneficial as well I guess! * 2-gate openings seem to be better than I thought. Have to look deeper into them. Tester's CB usage was also great to see. Cheers. | ||
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Abenson
Canada4122 Posts
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darktreb
United States3019 Posts
On June 04 2010 10:56 kzn wrote: Not that I disagree with you, but its pretty hard to evaluate an SCBW player in an incomplete fashion - what makes you think that Flash/Jaedong are better than Tester purely with reference to strategy? Because they both pioneered far more sustainable strategies than Tester ever did (in this case many versus basically 0), and also had more creative cheeses than him as well. By sustainable strategy, I basically mean innovations that had an effect on the metagame of a matchup. This is kind of a blurred line, as some cheeses are so good they slightly alter a matchup in that blocking that cheese is now relevant (such as Terran building their first Depot on the high ground on Medusa in TvT to block the SCV Temple glitch-through into otherwise unstoppable high ground proxy Barracks). But for the most part the distinctions are clear, such as 3 Hatch Spire into 5 Hatch Muta, 2 Hatch Muta (GSL S1 finals), the double armory build (which led to understandings about Goliath vs Carriers that basically removed Carriers from PvT for more than a year and permanently killed 2 base Reaver into Carrier), MnM early pressure build to counter Mutas, etc., not to mention countless more subtle innovations many of which are only distinguishable to the trained eye of a pro. Flash himself has said that there are elements of his new "super FD" build against Protoss that he feels he, and only he, fully understands, and therefore he is able to wield it more effectively than anyone else. Now you can argue that their superior mechanics make all of these things more possible (and they probably did contribute), but when you look at Flash especially when he was first coming up as a pro, he cheesed his way into the ro4 of an OSL at age 14 and kept cheesing until his fundamentals caught up with his mind. Flash is also known as the player with arguably the best in-game decision making ability ever, making him less vulnerable than the average player to unexpected things (nobody is perfect though, as the OSL finals demonstrated). It wouldn't do justice to Jaedong's greatness to call him a mechanical monkey either, though he has certainly benefited significantly from his incredible mechanics. So anyway, you are right that it's hard to isolate "strategic ability" to the degree where I can say with 100% confidence that Flash and Jaedong are better at purely strategy than Tester, but all the empirical evidence makes me very, very confident. The "old" player I would most like to see play SC2 is not Boxer, but rather Oov. I would be less confident that Flash/JD are strategically superior to someone like him, though part of me believes that Flash is simply a freak of nature whose natural SC-related abilities are unparalleled. | ||
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Trezeguet
United States2656 Posts
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gozima
Canada602 Posts
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ChApFoU
France2986 Posts
On June 05 2010 05:39 Abenson wrote: I was kind of surprised, looking at the results (I didn't watch the tournament), that tester didn't even lose a single game. Is the stereotypical "Koreans are just better at SC" thing still exist? I watched the finals and Tester gave an atrocious spanking session to Idra. I thought at least at the early stage of the game foreigners could hang in there but there seems to be a big skill gap already, at least from the little I saw of the competitive SC2 scene. | ||
GHOSTCLAW
United States17042 Posts
On June 05 2010 07:44 darktreb wrote: The "old" player I would most like to see play SC2 is not Boxer, but rather Oov. I would be less confident that Flash/JD are strategically superior to someone like him, though part of me believes that Flash is simply a freak of nature whose natural SC-related abilities are unparalleled. Just going to go ahead and comment on this part (full comment is a few posts above); I would really like to see air force ace play in sc2. I think that they would do really really really well, as they have a team full of players that have proven that they already know how to innovate, as well as win. Over half the team has starleague wins, and the other half had had fairly accomplished careers compared to most individuals (sorry yellow  ). If kespa switches everyone over to sc2, ace will start coming up on top all the time, as the team that can be the most clever, most innovative, and fastest to learn (probably) without having anywhere near as much practice time. | ||
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