• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 00:21
CEST 06:21
KST 13:21
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
Team TLMC #5 - Finalists & Open Tournaments0[ASL20] Ro16 Preview Pt2: Turbulence5Classic Games #3: Rogue vs Serral at BlizzCon9[ASL20] Ro16 Preview Pt1: Ascent10Maestros of the Game: Week 1/Play-in Preview12
Community News
Weekly Cups (Sept 8-14): herO & MaxPax split cups3WardiTV TL Team Map Contest #5 Tournaments1SC4ALL $6,000 Open LAN in Philadelphia7Weekly Cups (Sept 1-7): MaxPax rebounds & Clem saga continues29LiuLi Cup - September 2025 Tournaments3
StarCraft 2
General
Team Liquid Map Contest #21 - Presented by Monster Energy #1: Maru - Greatest Players of All Time Weekly Cups (Sept 8-14): herO & MaxPax split cups SpeCial on The Tasteless Podcast Team TLMC #5 - Finalists & Open Tournaments
Tourneys
WardiTV TL Team Map Contest #5 Tournaments Maestros of The Game—$20k event w/ live finals in Paris RSL: Revival, a new crowdfunded tournament series Sparkling Tuna Cup - Weekly Open Tournament SC4ALL $6,000 Open LAN in Philadelphia
Strategy
Custom Maps
External Content
Mutation # 491 Night Drive Mutation # 490 Masters of Midnight Mutation # 489 Bannable Offense Mutation # 488 What Goes Around
Brood War
General
Diplomacy, Cosmonarchy Edition [ASL20] Ro16 Preview Pt2: Turbulence BW General Discussion BGH Auto Balance -> http://bghmmr.eu/ ASL20 General Discussion
Tourneys
[ASL20] Ro16 Group D [ASL20] Ro16 Group C [IPSL] ISPL Season 1 Winter Qualis and Info! Is there English video for group selection for ASL
Strategy
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Muta micro map competition Fighting Spirit mining rates [G] Mineral Boosting
Other Games
General Games
Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread Path of Exile General RTS Discussion Thread Nintendo Switch Thread Borderlands 3
Dota 2
Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion LiquidDota to reintegrate into TL.net
League of Legends
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
TL Mafia Community Thread
Community
General
US Politics Mega-thread Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine Canadian Politics Mega-thread Russo-Ukrainian War Thread The Big Programming Thread
Fan Clubs
The Happy Fan Club!
Media & Entertainment
Movie Discussion! [Manga] One Piece Anime Discussion Thread
Sports
2024 - 2026 Football Thread Formula 1 Discussion MLB/Baseball 2023
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Linksys AE2500 USB WIFI keeps disconnecting Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread High temperatures on bridge(s)
TL Community
BarCraft in Tokyo Japan for ASL Season5 Final The Automated Ban List
Blogs
The Personality of a Spender…
TrAiDoS
A very expensive lesson on ma…
Garnet
hello world
radishsoup
Lemme tell you a thing o…
JoinTheRain
RTS Design in Hypercoven
a11
Evil Gacha Games and the…
ffswowsucks
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 1276 users

[SC2B] Drone and the Art of Defence - Page 6

Forum Index > News
121 CommentsPost a Reply
Prev 1 4 5 6 7 Next All
tedster
Profile Joined May 2009
984 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-03-30 23:28:01
March 30 2010 23:12 GMT
#101
I've been promoting the idea that defense needs to be strengthened since the game came out. It's very odd to see defending be a weaker position than attacking in most situations, or at the very least roughly even. It should definitely take less resources to defend than to attack and that is simply not the case right now, which means there is no real reason to ever defend.

I hope this gets revisited in the coming weeks/months.

edit: The other thing I hope gets more attention is the power of all-ins right now. Granted timing pushes are especially strong when play has not yet evolved, but there is much less potential for back-and-forth right now because being on the defensive is extremely weak in SC2.

In BW, for example, you could lose a war in the middle but still hold off an attack with your newly-produced units because fighting defensively was comparatively powerful. This was awesome and is what allowed great back-and-forth macro games to happen.

In SC2, it is possible to do this, but much, much harder since fighting defensively isn't really an advantage at all. If you lose a relatively large battle, there's a very good chance your base is dead because you will not be able to hold off the remains of the enemy army, even with simbase and highground, since these things are pretty easy to ignore in SC2.

This strikes me as a very War3 trait and is not something I have enjoyed about SC2. I hope it gets looked at.
the last wcs commissioner
Roqu
Profile Joined December 2004
United States26 Posts
March 31 2010 04:23 GMT
#102
Does anyone think that peons in general should be a bit bigger?
i can't click on them very well at all.
:O :O :O
Roqu
Profile Joined December 2004
United States26 Posts
March 31 2010 04:24 GMT
#103
Also I think that static defense just might not have enough range rather than damage / hp
:O :O :O
forgotten0ne
Profile Blog Joined March 2009
United States951 Posts
March 31 2010 04:31 GMT
#104
My ZvZ winrate is ~90%, and it's almost never a "roach-> expand" game, as my stream viewers can attest to. People just aren't creative.
"Well it’s obvious that these Terran gamers are just extremely gifted when it comes to RTS games" -Ret, in regards to the first months of SC2
Costard
Profile Joined March 2010
China1 Post
Last Edited: 2010-03-31 05:06:46
March 31 2010 04:59 GMT
#105
Great Article! And in addition, I heartfully thought Protoss should be more resistant to fight than Zerg( You may have serveral groups of cockroaches which should be smaller on size in the next version for advise ) in the newest beta version 0.6, considering that most Protoss unit cost more resource than Z & T. Furthermore, Blizzard can consider raise the cost of zealot from 100 to 130, or 150, to balance the increase of its shield and armor/HP, and there may be similar adjustments for the Colossus.
A single unit`s HP of Protoss is less than A COCKROACH!
Cheerio
Profile Blog Joined August 2007
Ukraine3178 Posts
March 31 2010 10:07 GMT
#106
Respect to Drone. It's nice to read people with vision of the things, those are hard to find.
NightmareX
Profile Joined March 2010
New Zealand31 Posts
April 01 2010 04:34 GMT
#107
good read
Failing at making custom map triggers
Jyren
Profile Joined April 2010
United States59 Posts
April 01 2010 11:12 GMT
#108
Looks like Blizzard heard you on the "defense advtange needs to be reinforced" arguement. They just boosted towers / cannons / sunkens in the latest patch.

Might be a coincidence, but either way, either they're listening to the community, or they know what they're doing. Or a lilttle of both
0neder
Profile Joined July 2009
United States3733 Posts
April 01 2010 19:33 GMT
#109
On April 01 2010 20:12 Jyren wrote:
Looks like Blizzard heard you on the "defense advtange needs to be reinforced" arguement. They just boosted towers / cannons / sunkens in the latest patch.

Might be a coincidence, but either way, either they're listening to the community, or they know what they're doing. Or a lilttle of both

Yes, that was very reassuring. Whether or not they deal with high ground stuff, this at least shows that they're aware of it, which is awesome.
PhoR11
Profile Joined March 2010
United States31 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-04-01 23:17:20
April 01 2010 23:13 GMT
#110
Is it just because of the queen that you find ZvZ scouting to be "broken"?
Or do you say that because scouting isn't necessary as everyone is using roaches at present?

What about using creep tumors as a scouting tool?
Zerg don't exactly have a big selection of detectors to be able to remove your tumors once placed.
Liquid`Drone
Profile Joined September 2002
Norway28683 Posts
April 02 2010 01:35 GMT
#111
the queen is the main reason. in bw you could only build lings mutas and scourge, in sc2 you can only build lings roaches and hydras, so that is less of a problem. but players being blind, especially in a mirror matchup, is really bad for the matchup.
Moderator
JadeFist
Profile Blog Joined August 2007
United States1225 Posts
April 02 2010 04:29 GMT
#112
On March 29 2010 22:13 Liquid`Drone wrote:
With this said, and this is the key point I would like to make, I am not sure that Starcraft 2 can achieve the same dynamic that Brood War had in its best 4 matchups during the last couple of years.

Oh my god, would people STOP IT with the past tense...
ryanAnger
Profile Blog Joined April 2008
United States838 Posts
April 02 2010 04:31 GMT
#113
I would just like to say, I hope Blizzard reads this and takes it into consideration. I would like to think they are already aware of the issue, but we don't know, and I do believe it is something that if taken too lightly, could be the death of longevity in SC as we know it.
On my way...
PhoR11
Profile Joined March 2010
United States31 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-04-02 06:45:37
April 02 2010 06:45 GMT
#114
Blizzard Chat:
"Each expansion will feature a new 20-30 mission campaign as well as new units and abilities for all three races in each expansion pack."


So even if you don't think it's as good as BW when Wings of Liberty is released, that doesn't mean it will be the "death" or the longevity of SC2. There will still be plenty of opportunity for the game to evolve.
cartoon]x
Profile Joined March 2010
United States606 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-04-02 10:16:18
April 02 2010 10:04 GMT
#115
On April 02 2010 13:29 JadeFist wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 29 2010 22:13 Liquid`Drone wrote:
With this said, and this is the key point I would like to make, I am not sure that Starcraft 2 can achieve the same dynamic that Brood War had in its best 4 matchups during the last couple of years.

Oh my god, would people STOP IT with the past tense...

Yeah I feel the same way.

the assumption roaches are the only option in ZvZ is wrong. 270 minerals may break a game of infantry vs. infantry, but not a turtle build. The scouting issue can be gotten around by keeping up the aggression in the early game.
It is not enough to conquer; one must learn to seduce.
[Leo]Se7en
Profile Joined November 2009
United States50 Posts
April 06 2010 01:58 GMT
#116
well at first i hated ZVZ but now its not so bad. been 1v1 in in platinum and gold. a few well placed ovies and some Suicide run in lings makes it ok
JulyZerg AKA "God of War", Effort, Movie, SkyHigh! You can do it Maestro !
HoracE
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
United Kingdom180 Posts
April 07 2010 10:46 GMT
#117
great article thanks
djcynn
Profile Joined April 2010
United States14 Posts
April 08 2010 23:45 GMT
#118
i'm really not very good at understanding the game so in-depth like that but you made it a whole lot easier to understand how sc is made and what direction it should go in.
SimpleLewis
Profile Joined April 2010
United Kingdom31 Posts
April 13 2010 07:29 GMT
#119
Very good read, thank you!
EU - Deranged.
shinigami
Profile Blog Joined June 2004
Canada423 Posts
April 14 2010 01:06 GMT
#120
Hit all the right spots!

As a T player in SC1 and 2, I feel very uncomfortable with the lack of defender's advantage, and am having a hard time adjusting to the "forced" offensive play style to "kill or be killed".
I was thinking about joining a debate club, but I was talked out of it.
Prev 1 4 5 6 7 Next All
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
OSC
00:00
Mid Season Playoffs #2
Liquipedia
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
Nina 163
Livibee 78
ROOTCatZ 72
StarCraft: Brood War
Noble 70
soO 40
ajuk12(nOOB) 25
JulyZerg 21
sSak 18
Bale 13
Icarus 6
Dota 2
monkeys_forever500
NeuroSwarm146
League of Legends
JimRising 641
Counter-Strike
Stewie2K754
semphis_28
Super Smash Bros
C9.Mang0385
Other Games
summit1g6250
shahzam817
Maynarde110
SortOf100
Trikslyr50
RuFF_SC221
Organizations
Other Games
gamesdonequick871
StarCraft 2
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
sctven
[ Show 14 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• intothetv
• Kozan
• IndyKCrew
• LaughNgamezSOOP
• Migwel
• sooper7s
StarCraft: Brood War
• Diggity4
• BSLYoutube
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
League of Legends
• Rush1358
• Lourlo895
• Stunt281
Upcoming Events
Sparkling Tuna Cup
5h 40m
Afreeca Starleague
5h 40m
Light vs Speed
Larva vs Soma
2v2
6h 40m
OSC
8h 40m
PiGosaur Monday
19h 40m
LiuLi Cup
1d 6h
RSL Revival
2 days
Maru vs Reynor
Cure vs TriGGeR
The PondCast
2 days
RSL Revival
3 days
Zoun vs Classic
Korean StarCraft League
3 days
[ Show More ]
BSL Open LAN 2025 - War…
4 days
RSL Revival
4 days
BSL Open LAN 2025 - War…
5 days
RSL Revival
5 days
Online Event
5 days
Wardi Open
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

Proleague 2025-09-10
Chzzk MurlocKing SC1 vs SC2 Cup #2
HCC Europe

Ongoing

BSL 20 Team Wars
KCM Race Survival 2025 Season 3
BSL 21 Points
ASL Season 20
CSL 2025 AUTUMN (S18)
LASL Season 20
RSL Revival: Season 2
Maestros of the Game
FISSURE Playground #2
BLAST Open Fall 2025
BLAST Open Fall Qual
Esports World Cup 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall Qual
IEM Cologne 2025
FISSURE Playground #1

Upcoming

2025 Chongqing Offline CUP
BSL World Championship of Poland 2025
IPSL Winter 2025-26
BSL Season 21
SC4ALL: Brood War
BSL 21 Team A
Stellar Fest
SC4ALL: StarCraft II
EC S1
ESL Impact League Season 8
SL Budapest Major 2025
BLAST Rivals Fall 2025
IEM Chengdu 2025
PGL Masters Bucharest 2025
MESA Nomadic Masters Fall
Thunderpick World Champ.
CS Asia Championships 2025
ESL Pro League S22
StarSeries Fall 2025
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2025 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.