• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 12:54
CEST 18:54
KST 01:54
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
[ASL19] Ro4 Recap : The Peak11DreamHack Dallas 2025 - Info & Preview19herO wins GSL Code S Season 1 (2025)17Code S RO4 & Finals Preview: herO, GuMiho, Classic, Cure6Code S RO8 Preview: Classic, Reynor, Maru, GuMiho4
Community News
[BSL20] RO20 Group Stage0EWC 2025 Regional Qualifiers (May 28-June 1)7Weekly Cups (May 12-18): Clem sweeps WardiTV May3Code S Season 2 (2025) - Qualifier Results212025 GSL Season 2 (Qualifiers)14
StarCraft 2
General
herO wins GSL Code S Season 1 (2025) DreamHack Dallas 2025 - Info & Preview Power Rank: October 2018 Code S Season 2 (2025) - Qualifier Results Code S RO8 Preview: Classic, Reynor, Maru, GuMiho
Tourneys
DreamHack Dallas 2025 Last Chance Qualifiers for OlimoLeague 2024 Winter $5,100+ SEL Season 2 Championship (SC: Evo) StarCraft Evolution League (SC Evo Biweekly) EWC 2025 Regional Qualifiers (May 28-June 1)
Strategy
Simple Questions Simple Answers [G] PvT Cheese: 13 Gate Proxy Robo
Custom Maps
[UMS] Zillion Zerglings
External Content
Mutation # 474 Futile Resistance Mutation # 473 Cold is the Void Mutation # 472 Dead Heat Mutation # 471 Delivery Guaranteed
Brood War
General
[ASL19] Ro4 Recap : The Peak BW General Discussion Cwal.gg not working BGH auto balance -> http://bghmmr.eu/ Artosis baned on twitch ?
Tourneys
[Megathread] Daily Proleagues [ASL19] Semifinal B [BSL20] RO20 Group Stage Small VOD Thread 2.0
Strategy
I am doing this better than progamers do. [G] How to get started on ladder as a new Z player
Other Games
General Games
Beyond All Reason What do you want from future RTS games? Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread Grand Theft Auto VI Nintendo Switch Thread
Dota 2
Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
LiquidLegends to reintegrate into TL.net
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers
Hearthstone
Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
Vanilla Mini Mafia TL Mafia Community Thread TL Mafia Plays: Diplomacy TL Mafia: Generative Agents Showdown Survivor II: The Amazon
Community
General
Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine Russo-Ukrainian War Thread European Politico-economics QA Mega-thread US Politics Mega-thread Trading/Investing Thread
Fan Clubs
Serral Fan Club
Media & Entertainment
[Manga] One Piece Movie Discussion! Anime Discussion Thread
Sports
2024 - 2025 Football Thread Formula 1 Discussion NHL Playoffs 2024 NBA General Discussion
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread Cleaning My Mechanical Keyboard How to clean a TTe Thermaltake keyboard?
TL Community
The Automated Ban List TL.net Ten Commandments
Blogs
Yes Sir! How Commanding Impr…
TrAiDoS
Poker
Nebuchad
Info SLEgma_12
SLEgma_12
SECOND COMMING
XenOsky
WombaT’s Old BW Terran Theme …
WombaT
Heero Yuy & the Tax…
KrillinFromwales
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 11465 users

[SC2B] Drone and the Art of Defence - Page 6

Forum Index > News
121 CommentsPost a Reply
Prev 1 4 5 6 7 Next All
tedster
Profile Joined May 2009
984 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-03-30 23:28:01
March 30 2010 23:12 GMT
#101
I've been promoting the idea that defense needs to be strengthened since the game came out. It's very odd to see defending be a weaker position than attacking in most situations, or at the very least roughly even. It should definitely take less resources to defend than to attack and that is simply not the case right now, which means there is no real reason to ever defend.

I hope this gets revisited in the coming weeks/months.

edit: The other thing I hope gets more attention is the power of all-ins right now. Granted timing pushes are especially strong when play has not yet evolved, but there is much less potential for back-and-forth right now because being on the defensive is extremely weak in SC2.

In BW, for example, you could lose a war in the middle but still hold off an attack with your newly-produced units because fighting defensively was comparatively powerful. This was awesome and is what allowed great back-and-forth macro games to happen.

In SC2, it is possible to do this, but much, much harder since fighting defensively isn't really an advantage at all. If you lose a relatively large battle, there's a very good chance your base is dead because you will not be able to hold off the remains of the enemy army, even with simbase and highground, since these things are pretty easy to ignore in SC2.

This strikes me as a very War3 trait and is not something I have enjoyed about SC2. I hope it gets looked at.
the last wcs commissioner
Roqu
Profile Joined December 2004
United States26 Posts
March 31 2010 04:23 GMT
#102
Does anyone think that peons in general should be a bit bigger?
i can't click on them very well at all.
:O :O :O
Roqu
Profile Joined December 2004
United States26 Posts
March 31 2010 04:24 GMT
#103
Also I think that static defense just might not have enough range rather than damage / hp
:O :O :O
forgotten0ne
Profile Blog Joined March 2009
United States951 Posts
March 31 2010 04:31 GMT
#104
My ZvZ winrate is ~90%, and it's almost never a "roach-> expand" game, as my stream viewers can attest to. People just aren't creative.
"Well it’s obvious that these Terran gamers are just extremely gifted when it comes to RTS games" -Ret, in regards to the first months of SC2
Costard
Profile Joined March 2010
China1 Post
Last Edited: 2010-03-31 05:06:46
March 31 2010 04:59 GMT
#105
Great Article! And in addition, I heartfully thought Protoss should be more resistant to fight than Zerg( You may have serveral groups of cockroaches which should be smaller on size in the next version for advise ) in the newest beta version 0.6, considering that most Protoss unit cost more resource than Z & T. Furthermore, Blizzard can consider raise the cost of zealot from 100 to 130, or 150, to balance the increase of its shield and armor/HP, and there may be similar adjustments for the Colossus.
A single unit`s HP of Protoss is less than A COCKROACH!
Cheerio
Profile Blog Joined August 2007
Ukraine3178 Posts
March 31 2010 10:07 GMT
#106
Respect to Drone. It's nice to read people with vision of the things, those are hard to find.
NightmareX
Profile Joined March 2010
New Zealand31 Posts
April 01 2010 04:34 GMT
#107
good read
Failing at making custom map triggers
Jyren
Profile Joined April 2010
United States59 Posts
April 01 2010 11:12 GMT
#108
Looks like Blizzard heard you on the "defense advtange needs to be reinforced" arguement. They just boosted towers / cannons / sunkens in the latest patch.

Might be a coincidence, but either way, either they're listening to the community, or they know what they're doing. Or a lilttle of both
0neder
Profile Joined July 2009
United States3733 Posts
April 01 2010 19:33 GMT
#109
On April 01 2010 20:12 Jyren wrote:
Looks like Blizzard heard you on the "defense advtange needs to be reinforced" arguement. They just boosted towers / cannons / sunkens in the latest patch.

Might be a coincidence, but either way, either they're listening to the community, or they know what they're doing. Or a lilttle of both

Yes, that was very reassuring. Whether or not they deal with high ground stuff, this at least shows that they're aware of it, which is awesome.
PhoR11
Profile Joined March 2010
United States31 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-04-01 23:17:20
April 01 2010 23:13 GMT
#110
Is it just because of the queen that you find ZvZ scouting to be "broken"?
Or do you say that because scouting isn't necessary as everyone is using roaches at present?

What about using creep tumors as a scouting tool?
Zerg don't exactly have a big selection of detectors to be able to remove your tumors once placed.
Liquid`Drone
Profile Joined September 2002
Norway28608 Posts
April 02 2010 01:35 GMT
#111
the queen is the main reason. in bw you could only build lings mutas and scourge, in sc2 you can only build lings roaches and hydras, so that is less of a problem. but players being blind, especially in a mirror matchup, is really bad for the matchup.
Moderator
JadeFist
Profile Blog Joined August 2007
United States1225 Posts
April 02 2010 04:29 GMT
#112
On March 29 2010 22:13 Liquid`Drone wrote:
With this said, and this is the key point I would like to make, I am not sure that Starcraft 2 can achieve the same dynamic that Brood War had in its best 4 matchups during the last couple of years.

Oh my god, would people STOP IT with the past tense...
ryanAnger
Profile Blog Joined April 2008
United States838 Posts
April 02 2010 04:31 GMT
#113
I would just like to say, I hope Blizzard reads this and takes it into consideration. I would like to think they are already aware of the issue, but we don't know, and I do believe it is something that if taken too lightly, could be the death of longevity in SC as we know it.
On my way...
PhoR11
Profile Joined March 2010
United States31 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-04-02 06:45:37
April 02 2010 06:45 GMT
#114
Blizzard Chat:
"Each expansion will feature a new 20-30 mission campaign as well as new units and abilities for all three races in each expansion pack."


So even if you don't think it's as good as BW when Wings of Liberty is released, that doesn't mean it will be the "death" or the longevity of SC2. There will still be plenty of opportunity for the game to evolve.
cartoon]x
Profile Joined March 2010
United States606 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-04-02 10:16:18
April 02 2010 10:04 GMT
#115
On April 02 2010 13:29 JadeFist wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 29 2010 22:13 Liquid`Drone wrote:
With this said, and this is the key point I would like to make, I am not sure that Starcraft 2 can achieve the same dynamic that Brood War had in its best 4 matchups during the last couple of years.

Oh my god, would people STOP IT with the past tense...

Yeah I feel the same way.

the assumption roaches are the only option in ZvZ is wrong. 270 minerals may break a game of infantry vs. infantry, but not a turtle build. The scouting issue can be gotten around by keeping up the aggression in the early game.
It is not enough to conquer; one must learn to seduce.
[Leo]Se7en
Profile Joined November 2009
United States50 Posts
April 06 2010 01:58 GMT
#116
well at first i hated ZVZ but now its not so bad. been 1v1 in in platinum and gold. a few well placed ovies and some Suicide run in lings makes it ok
JulyZerg AKA "God of War", Effort, Movie, SkyHigh! You can do it Maestro !
HoracE
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
United Kingdom180 Posts
April 07 2010 10:46 GMT
#117
great article thanks
djcynn
Profile Joined April 2010
United States14 Posts
April 08 2010 23:45 GMT
#118
i'm really not very good at understanding the game so in-depth like that but you made it a whole lot easier to understand how sc is made and what direction it should go in.
SimpleLewis
Profile Joined April 2010
United Kingdom31 Posts
April 13 2010 07:29 GMT
#119
Very good read, thank you!
EU - Deranged.
shinigami
Profile Blog Joined June 2004
Canada423 Posts
April 14 2010 01:06 GMT
#120
Hit all the right spots!

As a T player in SC1 and 2, I feel very uncomfortable with the lack of defender's advantage, and am having a hard time adjusting to the "forced" offensive play style to "kill or be killed".
I was thinking about joining a debate club, but I was talked out of it.
Prev 1 4 5 6 7 Next All
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
Road to EWC
15:00
DreamHack Dallas Group Stage
ewc_black2049
ComeBackTV 1549
SteadfastSC460
CranKy Ducklings392
Rex164
EnkiAlexander 113
Liquipedia
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
SteadfastSC 460
Hui .285
Rex 164
StarCraft: Brood War
Britney 28123
Calm 5586
Rain 3862
Shuttle 1555
EffOrt 1430
Stork 509
ggaemo 206
Dewaltoss 144
PianO 90
Sharp 76
[ Show more ]
Mind 73
sSak 55
Mong 53
Barracks 45
Killer 34
ToSsGirL 31
Backho 22
Aegong 20
scan(afreeca) 18
zelot 18
GoRush 18
Terrorterran 13
soO 11
ajuk12(nOOB) 11
HiyA 10
Noble 9
Sexy 9
Hm[arnc] 8
Sacsri 8
Stormgate
RushiSC37
Dota 2
Gorgc11465
qojqva2748
Counter-Strike
Foxcn429
Heroes of the Storm
Liquid`Hasu313
Khaldor165
Other Games
B2W.Neo3066
FrodaN2209
hiko1102
Beastyqt731
ArmadaUGS200
KnowMe183
XaKoH 113
Liquid`VortiX94
QueenE47
Organizations
StarCraft 2
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
sctven
[ Show 16 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• IndyKCrew
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• sooper7s
• Migwel
• intothetv
• LaughNgamezSOOP
• Kozan
StarCraft: Brood War
• FirePhoenix9
• Azhi_Dahaki6
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
• BSLYoutube
Dota 2
• C_a_k_e 2674
League of Legends
• Nemesis4466
• Jankos1587
Other Games
• imaqtpie0
Upcoming Events
Replay Cast
17h 6m
SC Evo League
19h 6m
Road to EWC
22h 6m
Afreeca Starleague
1d 12h
BeSt vs Soulkey
Road to EWC
1d 21h
Wardi Open
2 days
SOOP
3 days
NightMare vs Wayne
Replay Cast
3 days
Replay Cast
4 days
GSL Code S
4 days
Cure vs Zoun
Solar vs Creator
[ Show More ]
The PondCast
4 days
Online Event
4 days
Clem vs ShoWTimE
herO vs MaxPax
GSL Code S
5 days
GuMiho vs Bunny
ByuN vs SHIN
Online Event
5 days
Replay Cast
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

Proleague 2025-05-16
2025 GSL S1
Calamity Stars S2

Ongoing

JPL Season 2
ASL Season 19
YSL S1
BSL 2v2 Season 3
BSL Season 20
China & Korea Top Challenge
KCM Race Survival 2025 Season 2
NPSL S3
DreamHack Dallas 2025
Heroes 10 EU
ESL Impact League Season 7
IEM Dallas 2025
PGL Astana 2025
Asian Champions League '25
ECL Season 49: Europe
BLAST Rivals Spring 2025
MESA Nomadic Masters
CCT Season 2 Global Finals
IEM Melbourne 2025
YaLLa Compass Qatar 2025
PGL Bucharest 2025
BLAST Open Spring 2025
ESL Pro League S21

Upcoming

Rose Open S1
Copa Latinoamericana 4
CSLPRO Last Chance 2025
CSLAN 2025
K-Championship
SEL Season 2 Championship
Esports World Cup 2025
HSC XXVII
Championship of Russia 2025
Bellum Gens Elite Stara Zagora 2025
2025 GSL S2
BLAST Bounty Fall Qual
IEM Cologne 2025
FISSURE Playground #1
BLAST.tv Austin Major 2025
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2025 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.