EPT[PL] Uncharted Territory - Page 5
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MageKirby
United States535 Posts
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baubo
China3370 Posts
On October 05 2009 06:17 FranzF1 wrote: For me its not kespa fault or maps faults.. its just that Terrans and Zergs keep improving always.. and Toss last new thing was just Bisu corsair/dt build (yeah like 1 year or more ago)... they need news strategies and I put my faith on Stork and Jangbi. There's a very easy way to find out. Simply make a map that resembles Katrina or Monty Hall, and see how these new great zergs do on them. | ||
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Camlito
Australia4040 Posts
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aeroH
United States1034 Posts
On October 05 2009 10:01 Camlito wrote: Gay.. my favourite map to play on of the new maps is the only p>z map.. ugh.. | ||
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Kyo Yuy
United States1286 Posts
On October 05 2009 08:52 MountainDewJunkie wrote: Is no one considering the obviousness that protoss have yet to create a solid response to the 5-hatch build, or simply how fe is still so vulnerable to 2/3 hatch hydra breaks? When each new distinct map shows this level of imbalance after a swarm season, it shows that zergs still have superior builds at the moment. It's a little laughable to think that all of these maps were somehow unintentionally (or otherwise) designed to a zerg's advantage; it's more plausible that protoss have yet to adapt. Those are my thoughts on PvZ, anyway. [You don't know shit! They're all just imba! Obviously you know nothing about PvZ! (perhaps) Thanks for this useless post!] Yet when Protoss was dominating in fall of 2008, everyone was crying how the maps were imba for Protoss rather than saying that Protoss were just doing really well and Zerg just weren't adapting. I doubt maps were designed to give advantage to any race - maps are designed just with certain ideas in mind, regardless of potential balance issues. That's why map testing is done, to see how balance issues are affected by the maps. There was a period of time when maps were EXTREMELY Terran favored, and that wasn't because anyone was intentionally trying to make Terran favored maps. That's just the way mapmakers designed things. PvZ has always been a difficult matchup for P to play though. The "dominance" or even "balance" in which P could hold their own against Z only surfaced in about 2007. It's really really difficult for Protoss to come up with good builds against Zerg, that's nothing new. If the maps aren't "imba," then perhaps it is simply a matter of fact that the infamous ZvP imbalance has finally resurfaced after 2 years. | ||
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Mastermind
Canada7096 Posts
On October 05 2009 10:01 Camlito wrote: Gay.. my favourite map to play on of the new maps is the only p>z map.. ya, thats so gay. I cant believe they are allowing in one map with p > z. Thats bullshit. | ||
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Zato-1
Chile4253 Posts
On October 05 2009 10:06 Kyo Yuy wrote: If the maps aren't "imba," then perhaps it is simply a matter of fact that the infamous ZvP imbalance has finally resurfaced after 2 years. I'm leaning towards this theory, myself. | ||
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Fontong
United States6454 Posts
That's just bullshit. | ||
Empyrean
17014 Posts
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Camlito
Australia4040 Posts
On October 05 2009 10:12 Mastermind wrote: ya, thats so gay. I cant believe they are allowing in one map with p > z. Thats bullshit. :l | ||
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Apex
United States7227 Posts
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SilverSkyLark
Philippines8437 Posts
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SilverSkyLark
Philippines8437 Posts
On October 05 2009 10:36 Fontong wrote: Are people really saying that maps with two entrances to the nat aren't imbalanced Z > P? That's just bullshit. Depends, Asgard can be walled off to effectively minimize the imbalance that is 2 nat entrance... + Show Spoiler + ![[image loading]](http://i37.tinypic.com/jb4x3l.jpg) ![[image loading]](http://i38.tinypic.com/dfgehd.jpg) | ||
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Musoeun
United States4324 Posts
1) Statistically Protoss held their own on Shades. Yes it got a ton of TvT on it, but the Protoss who played did okay. There were some flukey results all round, from garbage matches (Kal > Casy) to stupid games (Last > Stork), but it looked decent for Protoss, even for PvZ (not that there was much to go by). I still don't fully understand why we didn't see more Protoss there. 2) I really wasn't paying attention to the map and lineup matches that much - watched them all but let's be honest, the majority of these games we had minor leaguers playing. Is that to say the results can be completely discounted? No, of course not - but I do want to note that things could be a little different when we see the real stars playing for real. Other than that, although I'm not a big fan of a lot of these maps for now I'm going with the "no innovation" idea as the major problem facing Protoss. | ||
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D4L[invd]
Canada110 Posts
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MuffinDude
United States3837 Posts
On October 05 2009 08:50 FranzF1 wrote: Its not that I hate protoss (my fav team khan lol) but I hate that actitude of every toss player... "yeah maps are imba we are lost gg no re" its like a lazy way of justify that they are playing badly and its all Bisu fault.. I dont remember stork crying about map imba (well maybe a little like every player)... for me maps where Imba before, when nat didnt have gas or with like 2 gas expa for map, that was imba. Also could someone who understand SC very good correct me if im wrong, but for me when a map is made with a little P>Z imba results on a map T>P too? (well not like really T>>>P but like bridges and narrow paths goods for storms, no big center..etc..) Thats only if protoss can survive to templar tech without falling too far behind. Its really lame because pvz was imba to begin with and only after bisu build came around, did the match up become playable, but the bisu build requires couple requirement, such as narrow nat choke and all, for it to be used effectively. I was hoping kespa would think of this but apparently they didn't on some maps. | ||
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Zato-1
Chile4253 Posts
On October 05 2009 12:09 Musoeun wrote: Other than that, although I'm not a big fan of a lot of these maps for now I'm going with the "no innovation" idea as the major problem facing Protoss. My problem with this theory is that it has no expiration date. Protoss has been having a rough year so far. According to the latest map testing, this will not get better anytime soon. We've seen how many Zerg and Terran players rising through the ranks? Terran: Skyhigh's been doing quite well. Iris is having a resurgence. Leta's still doing well enough. Canata came out of nowhere to become someone relevant. Light's been surprising every MBC fan out there. There's others, too. But there are plenty of Terran players who are doing just fine. Zerg: Calm's performance has been better than anyone would've predicted. EffOrt has been a major Zerg player for several months now. YellOw[ArnC] is doing surprisingly well. Kwanro's had better performance than I thought was possible. It's not all rosy for the Zerg and Terrans, of course. But there's plenty of recent success stories. Protoss? Well, there's still Bisu. Just like there's still Jaedong and Flash. Who else? Violet? He's been doing well. For a Protoss. The six dragons? Bisu apart, the question is which of them has fallen the farthest. free is narrowly beating BeSt in a freefall competition. So, about that expiration date: How many more Terran and Zerg rising stars do we need? I'm not saying the theory of Protoss players playing badly is necessarily wrong, mind you: Just that if Terran and Zerg keep having new success stories and Protoss keeps failing, eventually this theory has to be disproven. How much longer does Protoss have to keep tailing behind before we agree that the problem is not that all the skilled players just happened to choose Terran and Zerg? | ||
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baubo
China3370 Posts
On October 05 2009 10:06 Kyo Yuy wrote: Yet when Protoss was dominating in fall of 2008, everyone was crying how the maps were imba for Protoss rather than saying that Protoss were just doing really well and Zerg just weren't adapting. I doubt maps were designed to give advantage to any race - maps are designed just with certain ideas in mind, regardless of potential balance issues. That's why map testing is done, to see how balance issues are affected by the maps. There was a period of time when maps were EXTREMELY Terran favored, and that wasn't because anyone was intentionally trying to make Terran favored maps. That's just the way mapmakers designed things. PvZ has always been a difficult matchup for P to play though. The "dominance" or even "balance" in which P could hold their own against Z only surfaced in about 2007. It's really really difficult for Protoss to come up with good builds against Zerg, that's nothing new. If the maps aren't "imba," then perhaps it is simply a matter of fact that the infamous ZvP imbalance has finally resurfaced after 2 years. Avoid giving zerg a quick, easily defendable 3rd gas, and I can guarantee you that the infamous ZvP imbalance would disappear real quickly, and the vaunted 5-hatch build wouldn't look so vaunted. Add in some island properties to the maps(Troy, Monty Hall, Plasma), and I can guarantee zergs will be screaming imba on top of their lungs. | ||
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Musoeun
United States4324 Posts
Option 1) This is the players/coaches fault. They're just not finding the next breakthroughs and refinements that would allow them to have/regain the edge. Protoss vs Terran seems to have stagnated on both sides since arbiters and science vessels came into common play, and over the last year as a whole, it's still left Protoss with a slight edge in that match-up. For PvZ, though, Protoss just doesn't appear to have an answer to the variety of things Zergs can throw at them. For this reason alone,  Movie is my Protoss to watch - of all the decent-to-good Protoss playing right now, he's tried the weirdest things recently, and with some success, even if they've mostly seemed to be one-off builds so far.Of course, Protoss had problems for ages before the Taek-Bang era, so maybe this is just reversion to form. Option 2) Protoss really is played out. Starcraft is a hugely complex game, so this seems really unlikely, but it might possibly be the case. After all the game is 10 years old. But yes, I have no real evidence to support this idea, I'm just mentioning it as something which is technically possible. 2a) Protoss is played out on the current-generation of macro-maps. Maps don't explain all balance, but they can have a huge impact on some parts of the game (easy examples: God's Garden vs Neo Requiem, Battle Royale vs Katrina). | ||
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Eatme
Switzerland3919 Posts
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