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[PL] Uncharted Territory

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[PL] Uncharted Territory

Text byIntoTheWow
October 4th, 2009 01:38 GMT
[image loading]

Proleague 2009-10 Coverage by Teamliquid

The carriers lie almost still against the vast emptiness of space. On the flagship, a tall, elegant figure appears in an aft window, his eyes sweeping across the planet in an instant. Centuries of experience tell him that something is not quite right.

"Captain TheRock, how much until we arrive at our destination?"
"Only a few minutes sir"
"Good."

The Commander's voice is swift and as sharp as his blades and yet his eyes reflect a fear that so few have seen. The fleet is entering the rocky planet's atmosphere.

The place looks deserted. Even thought it's not late, there are no lights but the ones coming from the ships. The leader is the first one to set foot on the ground. There's a violent wind going at his face, but he has no hair to show it's presence. He gets on one knee and grabs a fistful of dirt from the ground. After looking at it for a couple of seconds he grumbles.

A peon approaches the leader:

"Don't worry sir, fall is upon us now! The prophecy will save us once again."
"Bring me Bisu, we need to find a way to get an advantage of the terrain."
"Sir, Bisu's fleet will not arrive until past the night".

The wind sings a sad song. The crew is uneasy, the sun did not set yet and the air is starting to get dense. The picture is broken by flock of scourge heading towards TheRock's carrier.

"Tell that idiot to move it. Tell him to..."

The flagship disappears in a burst of fire.

Above them, bugs start to mass, forming a giant orange cloud on the horizon. The wind lets out a final tune, a melody that is soon suppressed by a roaring sound. A lone Zergling runs up to the group, and with the swish of a psi blade it utters a vicious shriek and falls to the ground twitching.

Then, the hills themselves begin to shake and echo the approach of a thousand snarling aliens. Behind the leader somebody screams "IMBA!", but it's too late: the maps for the new season have already been tested and Proleague is only one week away.



The Proleague map test games have left us with a lot of questions. We still don't know what maps will be played the most, which ones will be used for the ace matches or if any of them will suffer any more changes. But the most important question so far is: What is going to happen with the race rule?

KeSPA has not given their final word on it. Past seasons showed us that maps with imbalances to be abused produce a ridiculous amount of mirror match-ups. It's true that a season runs for almost a year and it that time maps can change, but let's look at what happened last season.

During the 08-09 period, proleague featured 17 maps. Three of those were upgraded versions (Neo Harmony, Neo Medusa and Sin Chupung-Ryeong). From the remaining maps, we could put a "fail" tag on five of them:
  • Battle Royal, where 79%~ of the games were ZvZ
  • Rush Hour III which featured a PvT record of 8-26 and 51 TvTs
  • Harmony where half of the matches played were TvTs. Neo Harmony didn't make things a lot better either
  • Raid Assault 2, with 27 ZvZs
  • Neo Requiem, which would duplicate the amount of whining in the strategy forum if ICCup made it a MOTW.
  • Shades of Twilight, another Terran's wet dream.
Organizers should have made better use of the 'free' time in between leagues to sort these things out, instead of mixing Starcraft with Special Force.

With that little history lesson we now move on to a rundown of this season's map testing stats by Heyoka.

[image loading]

No nerds were permanently harmed in compiling these statistics.

For a more detailed look at the situation though I will now hand you over to Pholon, who prepared an awesome map by map analysis. Since we're not sure which of the following will get cut from the final PL map pool, we thought we'd just go ahead and analyse them all anyway.

[image loading]

ZvP 13-2 // PvT 4-10 // TvZ 7-10
+ Show Spoiler [Asgard 0.91] +
[image loading]

Asgard’s seen a lot of changes in its expansions. They are somewhat less vulnerable in terms of openness and cliffability, but harder to defend as far as distance goes. All-in-all, positioning is very important: a misplaced army can be devastating. There are 2 entrances to the natural and (albeit difficult to access) cliffs from which Lurker/Tank/Templar harass could be pulled off.
The peninsula expansions are too exposed and will probably be useless, being in the middle of the map and thus beingdifficult to hold. If the map splits in half like Blue Storm used to, Tanks will be extremely strong as they overlook Zealots and Dragoons scrambling in the narrow low grounds beneath. Of course, because of this it is also doubtful that Protoss will let it get that far which brings us to the example go.go vs yOon. The latter went straight for Carriers as Goliaths are friggin horrible to move around. On a map like this, using Wraiths to repel Carriers might even be viable. Before this point though, pushing up the middle platform after early game drops and Vulture raids proved very strong, as Mong showed us in a very sexy multitask/micro game.

Further, cheese could become relatively popular on this map because of the multiple entrances and places to hide proxies. With two distinct directions and fairly easy hiding places that are all buildable, the map is beautiful for proxy Robos and the like, with hidden-but-close spots near the mains like the neighboring ridges. Proxy Gating will be ineffective versus the ramps that can be walled of with 1 Sup, 1 Rax, but an example of hidden proxy is found in Miracle vs type-b. On that note, ZvT is panning out to be very interesting on Asgard as well. With little room to flank and retreat, spread and positioning are going to be very important, and in games, armies seem hesitant to engage each other. The smarter player will probably win and this map is consequently likely to yield very interesting games.

Small passages are the a significant feature this map, the balance of this will depend a lot on how players try and get past those bridges. Needless to say, aggressive play will be rewarded here. Of course, the narrow paths also significantly alter late game economics. Every expansion beyond your natural has Gas, but they’re pretty low on Minerals (5 patches max). Hopefully this will force a new style of play from the Protoss, but for now the late game looks like Z>P ez.

[image loading]

ZvP 3-10 // PvT 1-12 // TvZ 10-7
+ Show Spoiler [Match Point 0.92] +
[image loading]

Match Point is the weirdest map for Protoss – they dominate Zerg and get stomped by Terran. In TvP, the way the expansions pan out is Terran heaven. Expanding used to feel pretty unsecure beyond your natural, with highgrounds and backway passages to all of them, but with the newest versions the highground platform can defend your third pretty easily (while the other route to your nat is a small ramp – the Mineral only is gone now). Though the middle is unbuildable, and pushing distances are pretty far, Terran can take 4 gas mains along the way. Rush distances, however, are really short. Both Really and Leta acknowledged this and set up strong early rushes across the small middle. Recalls and drops appear to be pretty strong but we haven’t seen them yet in this MU.

Now to the good news: PvZ and TvZ are wonderfully dynamic. The general direction of pushing is a sort of chicane – going over the big platforms – but like an irrigration system there are a bunch of little routes that units can seep through. However, Protoss gets their natural expansion up a ramp, making a FE ever so easy and Storm is very strong on the many ramps of this map. Zerg probably has to figure out how to be more versatile in army movement to keep up with Protoss on this map – Orion and Modesty show hope is not yet lost. Drops prove pretty strong but Orion fails to capitalize on his advantage.

Hogil vs Major shows how Mutas over that cliffed natural are just too friggin strong and, even though Major does a commendable job holding on, he’s on his back foot throughout the entire game. We do get to see how armies can be moved around. Overall it’s a pretty fun looking map that should give rise to very entertaining games.

[image loading]

ZvP 10-5 // PvT 2-13 // TvZ 12-5
+ Show Spoiler [Moon Glaive 0.92] +
[image loading]

Moon Glaive has some interesting features. High ground and positioning seem to be themes of these maps so far. Moon Glaive tried adding an extra dimension to it with the three "watch towers", but the ramps were removed in later version leaving it doubtful whether they’ll ever be manned by Tanks or Lurkers - unlike on Othello they’re not overlooking expansions.
The other idea being explored here is shared with Asgard: the multiple entrance feature to the natural expansion. Typically, as we all know, natural expansions are easy to take and hold and most maps encourage them, shifting the game in more macro-oriented directions. No longer. This feature hurts versus the mobile armies and the map is already nicknamed Tears of the Protoss II, as Forge FE is such a critical part of the metagame.

Flanking seems very doable on this map, but defending the funnel lowgrounds should be easy enough and the highground middle is actually pretty small. We see this affect the TvP match-up when Barracks demonstrated Terran’s ability to set up mid-games push across the small, buildable highground, which proved very strong indeed. Mines and Tanks are very strong on the low ground areas, leaving Protoss unable to fend off harrass or to put on pressure as well as they’d like.

TvZ is really Terran favoured statistically and all the 4 showgames featured 2 Hatch agression, getting Zerg 2 wins. A notable game might be Haran vs Last. Because of the clock-wise positioning Zerg takes the third main for a third, slowing down his mining and tech. When Muta harrass is fended off sufficiently (a single set of turrets can cover both production facilities and natural mineral line) the Terran push can reach the highground over the Zerg natural fairly easily. Lurker numbers are way too small to break the contain and flanking is impossible in the narrow passages (Medic block revival go!). Even though the middle should have some flanking potential, a Terran push arriving outside your natural is devastating.

[image loading]

ZvP 13-4 // PvT 4-13 // TvZ 1-16
+ Show Spoiler [Road Runner 0.92] +
[image loading]

Even though the map tests have shown incredible imbalances in all the match-ups this map barely changed throughout the versions. Looking at the map from a Terran perspective it looked to me like a Terran Mech heaven (as Roadrunner is Destination² this might be the prefered strat): You can take 3 gas expansions in a row and are able to defend them with ease. Why then, doesn’t Mech stomp Zerg? Listening to the Liquipedia Q&A we know that Zerg needs to take a bunch of expansions. This is easier on Roadrunner as expansions are along the sides of the map and, unlike on Destination, you aren’t expanding towards your opponent. Again relating to the Q&A, Roadrunner doesn’t have two critical side expansions to which the Terran can edge out to. And this is where the problem for Terran lies. As soon as you push out over your bridges you can, because of the mazy structure, be flanked from at least 3 sides at all times. He may have to throw his whole army at you two or three times, but after that main push dies, Zerg can macro back up so fast due to all these expansions. Unless you’re Yarnc, suiciding half your army into 4 Turrets and a Tank, Zerg should have a good time on this map.

Protoss faces the same problems as Terran: The Zerg expos are pretty easy to defend and when the Protoss push comes out Zerg is able to set up great flanks with superior forces and hold the Protoss bridges pretty well with Lurkers and Hydra archs. Hero demonstrates as he gets 5 bases in about 9 minutes. Daezang's push is late as he takes his third base before breaking out with Storms, but Lurkers can hold it easily and Zergling flanks raids his third. Protoss will have a hard time setting up a timing push, as well as taking a third base as Daezang's other game showed, but winning won't be impossible.

The Terran versus Protoss match-up shows stats skewed in the favour of Terran. Again, moving clocki-wise along the edge of the map you can take 2 Gas Expansions with great ease (I can see Flash having a blast on this map) and on top of that you can pretty much siege up your Tanks at your third and be able to shoot at the Protoss main (or shoot at his 3rd from your main) if he’s in the counter-clock or clock-wise position of you. The interesting stuff happens in cross-position as in the Justin vs Best game. Justin took his 1st and 2nd expansion really early without breaking a sweat and Best, trying to keep up with the expansions suffered greatly from Justin’s Vultures that ruled supreme on the bridge networks of this map. The interesting part began when Justin tried to take his 4th. Making and flying out 2 CCs left and right he seemed unsure about where to expand to. The right is easier to expand to but on the left you’re in that counter-clockwise position allowing for a strong push directly into the Protoss. This indecision lost him the game as his bulk army was unable to defend both sides and scrambling about got picked off by he Protoss forces. When Terrans figure this discrepancy out I’ll expect them to do very well on this map. The 4th Protoss win comes from MVP who managed to get his Barracks shot down twice after floating it out *facepalm*.

[image loading]

ZvP 13-4 // PvT 9-7 // TvZ 9-7
+ Show Spoiler [Judgment Day 0.90] +
[image loading]

Even more maps that Protoss will die on! Dominating with a staggering 13 over 4, Zerg is yet again feasting on dead Zealot. The middle is great for big flanks and, apparently daunted by the current Zerg dominance, SangHo and Perfectman thought they should open with two of the dodgiest builds ever. They failed and Zerg still rules the stats.

In other match ups this map is as bland as ever. The complete absence of high ground and an (essentially) protected mineral third defines this as a macro map intended for slug fests and powerful punches. It tries to be cute, having a mineral-block-natural-back-entrance but it’s not really used and the 3 bases at your disposal lead to straight-forward, macro-heavy TvPs (though 2 Gate Goon, fortunately for Protoss, is still as strong as ever). The late game reminds of Coloseum, Terran and Protoss both mass huge army and do battle in the middle. The additional expansions on the sides might slow down the Terran push even further, making games on these sands even more dull.

In TvZ Terrans have decided to fail at Mech, Zergs decided to fail at stopping Mech and the straight-forward MnM games turned out to be quite okay. In earlier versions the 3rd gas, as a Terran, was pretty hard to put pressure on. In newer versions they made it a tad more accessible, hopefully leading to more dynamic games.

[image loading]

ZvP 13-4 // PvT 3-13 // TvZ 12-5
+ Show Spoiler [Acro 0.92] +
[image loading]

Looks like someone at Kespa doesn’t like Protoss, nor does TL look favorably on this map. I don’t get it. The fact that it’s a map with four penises on it makes it awesome. In later versions they even added doodad holes to the tips of the top penises. Onto serious business though... this map has seen quite some changes. A back-ramp to the main was added (although it hasn’t seen any action – and I doubt it ever will – because of the building/mineral block), they’re still fiddling around with the 6 and 12 o'clock expansions and the side expansions are no longer islands. Furthermore they added a Geyser to the low ground expo.

So, sitting Tanks on the penis head (lolol) Major was able to easily defend 3 gas bases and push down on the Protoss taking a fourth gas on his way down. Cross positioning got Protoss a few wins, but it looks like this map favours Terran a fair bit.

In their other MU Protoss is equally struggling to discover how to play on this map. Miso’s Mutalisks ruled supreme versus Jaehoon as the natural is very susceptible to aerial assault. Zerg was able to literally take all of the map, defending a single ramp in exchange for 2 gas expansions.

TvZ balances out more. Open middles make army movements and positioning important, and assist with flanking and retreats. Otherwise, Acro is a pure macro map. A very defendable third gas screams big battles and big hits. We've seen maps like Acro before, and while it's not particularly exciting or innovating, at least we know what we're getting. This map should be fairly immune to cheese and heavy harassment.

[image loading]

ZvP 14-3 // PvT 10-7 // TvZ 8-9
+ Show Spoiler [Tornado 0.95] +
[image loading]

Tornado looks pretty cool, but has, terrain-wise, undergone some pretty big changes. Looking at the old version you’d expect the same kind of positional (dis)advantage we saw on Roadrunner. Horang found this out the hard way, as Miracle’s tanks could siege up on his Fleet Beacon from a different platform. Comparing the old to the new version this travesty was somewhat minimized. Tanks can now only hit a small portion of the mains which have been made larger, so this should not be an issue anymore.

Miracle complained about the too open middle and in newer versions it’s been made smaller. PvT seems to balance out at 10-7 so far. In other changes the natural’s mineral lines we’re moved to the side of the map (rather than with their back to a bit of water) and the platforms outside the naturals have been moved around a bit. A high-ground outside a natural, overlooking all exit routes, would have been the interesting feature of this map, but after they were moved around we didn’t see them used all in the show games. They still have potential for Lurkers and Marines, but much less so. Koala vs Shine was pretty entertaining though.

Protoss gets stomped in PvZ. The natural’s main is pretty much wide open, making Hydra breaks so very strong, being able to beautifully arch a ton of Hydra’s around to front most cannons. The Zerg showed that Zerg has no trouble getting a quick 3rd base and consequently beat the shit out of Gosi producing a lot of units right as the Protoss edged out of his base.

[image loading]

ZvP 10-7 // PvT 12-5 // TvZ 7-10
+ Show Spoiler [Silver Wing 0.91] +
[image loading]

Final map of the pack is a bore,
no interesting features in store,
leaving us with a chore,
since we can’t just ignore it,
and will not pretend to adore it.

So what do we do,
To keep our reader, you,
Interested in our lay?
This game we can play
And present, unrehearsed,
A SilverWing review in verse.

It’s bland and straight-forward: a middle, 4 corners
In each two expands and a main.
The middle, alas, has an expo (two gas)
But why it is it there again?
It won't be used, like on Andro:
Not a soul will expand to
This vulnerable mineral plane.

One version change it underwent:
The natural’s choke is tighter yet
Which should assist a Forge Expand
And PvZ is not as bad
It balanced out at 7 - 10

P to the T - 3 base macro is trump
Just try not to put your tanks in a clump
If you’re in for a bad game,
Then try not to refrain
From looking at Moon molest Turn

ZvT’s a bit tricky, with your third’s backramp open,
And it might be right in sight
(in case of clockwise spawning place)
Of your Terran opponent’s natural base.
Put a Lurker on top it, should suffice to cope and
If not so then know Haran showed:
With many lings and a cow or two
You can claim a victory too
.

Now coming to the end, we hope you understand
How little zeal this map acrues.
It’s nothing special, but at least we meshed all
These words in metres for you.

The big picture is pretty easy to read - Protoss will have a hard time in the new maps. Yet, how will the teams themselves fair given the new battlegrounds?

Let's start at the top - SKTT1 is probably throwing a party right now. The defending champions not only have a very strong Terran squad, but also boast one of the few Protoss players that could revert the situation on these maps. In fact, T1 feels so confident, they decided to release Midas, who as we see was picked up by WeMade.

Now the last thing that WeMade needs is another Terran, even with these maps. Mind, Baby, RorO and Pure (sorry NaDa fans) should be their core players, with RorO and Mind being their strongest cards. I don't see Midas getting much playtime. Maybe he will end up as a practice partners or a cook, who knows. Coaching, of course is a serious possibility as well, and it has been suggested that he will be taking Nada's place as Terran mentor while the four time OSL champion prepares to take his leave from the pro scene. This is all conjecture of course, and for now, the reason behind Midas' acquisition is as mysterious as ever.

CJ has gotta be smiling. Their best Protoss is Movie, and even on a good day he's nowhere near EffOrt or Skyhigh. With the two youngsters doing really well last season, and with Iris providing some decent support to boot, the Z and T heavy Entusmen have little to worry about on these new maps so far.

Hwaseung heaved a sigh of relief when they resigned Jaedong and for good reason too. He's the best Zerg in the world, and on Zerg favoured maps, there's not a lot out there to stop him. If there's one thing at the back of Coach Cho's mind however, it's that playoffs are no longer Super Ace based, and his team needs to win two out of three bo7s to advance. Therefore, what the team is going to want to do is use Backho, Lomo, Perfectman and Killer to get a high enough regular season placement to get a Grand Finals seed. Sadly, half that lineup is Protoss, and not very good Protoss at that.

KT's season rests on the now somewhat weathered shoulders of Flash. On T favoured maps, the Little Monster is no doubt going to make a splash. As last season's joint Proleague MVP, he is certainly a player to be feared as we step into R1, and if the likes of Firefist, Luxury and Forgg can give him support, KT just may have a good season. Violet is going to have a tough time on these maps, but if there's a neo-gen Protoss who can make it happen it's certainly this guy. Thus, all in all, KT don't have a whole lot to complain about this season.

Samsung could be the team to suffer the hardest blow from this. Both JangBi and Stork are very good players, but they are not unbeatable, especially in PvZ. They better pray that the map used for ace games is a decent one. Maybe this is what it takes for January to field by.great more. Of course, they also have something going for them in Stork's PvT. Even with map imbalance, if there's one Protoss who can make this matchup work it's Dinotoss.

Taking a trip south we look at eSTRO, a team that will need its rookies to shine if they want to get out from the bottom of the table. SangHo showed really poor results in the qualifiers, and Really was barely decent in them. Hwanni (eSTRO's Manager) named By.PuMa and GosI[Flying] when asked about eSTRO best rookies. Classic, who got some spotlight in Artosis' videos and in the TL Replay section is the third player with potential that as of now, and even he has not shown good results.

Last season was kind to Soul in general. STX did not press B this time, and Calm evolved, a possible side-effect of having July on his team. Thus, STX getting July was a good idea. What wasn't a good idea was getting CuteAngel. What was that about? I wouldn't even put FrOzean on my Fantasy Proleague Team, and STX paid for him? Rumour has it that the currency involved was marshmallows, but still. Seriously though, STX had a blistering R5 run, and sporting a TZ biased lineup should have no problem with these new maps.

Finally, ACE. Reach and Anytime have not been doing great anyway these days, and the new maps aren't going to help them at all. Thus, the team is going to have to rely on the likes of Yellow, Gorush, Xellos and Casy this season, and to be perfectly honest that's not a lineup that can take a lot of games off anyone else. Await the upset or two, but don't get your hopes up for some old school wins - especially on the new maps, they're just not gonna happen.

It's on that sad note that we finish off this Pre-Proleague update. We hope you found the piece informative, and we hope you'll join us again later on in the week as we bring you a full Proleague 2009-10 preview.

Update - 2009/10/06 19:00 KST
The map pool for Proleague 2009-10 R1 has been released -

Retained
Outsider (new version, 'Outsider SE')
Heartbreak Ridge

New
Tornado
Silver Wing
Moon Glaive
Match Point


This coverage article was brought to you by Proleague guest writers InToTheWow and Pholon. Thanks to Heyoka for the charts, Keit for the PL graphics and Funkie for the map banners.
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Moderator<:3-/-<
Crunchums
Profile Blog Joined December 2008
United States11143 Posts
October 04 2009 12:39 GMT
#2
Thanks for this
brood war for life, brood war forever
konadora *
Profile Blog Joined February 2009
Singapore66145 Posts
October 04 2009 12:40 GMT
#3
Great job, loved the short team analysis in the end :p
POGGERS
deL
Profile Blog Joined March 2009
Australia5540 Posts
October 04 2009 12:45 GMT
#4
Sweet banners and good content. Was a long read but definitely gets me excited to see (and play) some games on these maps.
Gaming videos for fun ~ http://www.youtube.com/user/WijLopenLos
Pyrrhuloxia
Profile Blog Joined May 2008
United States6700 Posts
October 04 2009 12:51 GMT
#5
Fuck Kespa. :'( My poor samsung boys are fucked .
Ftrunkz
Profile Blog Joined April 2007
Australia2474 Posts
October 04 2009 12:55 GMT
#6
Seriously, after seeing that table, i may consider switching from protoss after these maps become the most played on iccup... Why are they doing this? Is protoss considered boring to watch in korea or something? =[
@NvPinder on twitter | Member of Gamecom Nv | http://www.clan-ta.com | http://www.youtube.com/user/ftrunkz | http://www.twitchtv.com/xghpinder
aeroH
Profile Blog Joined February 2009
United States1034 Posts
October 04 2009 12:58 GMT
#7
protoss graveyard?
Deleted User 37864
Profile Blog Joined June 2008
780 Posts
October 04 2009 12:59 GMT
#8
Wow. These are so unbalanced for Protoss.
The mapmakers better make it more balanced or we will not see much Protoss.
Mykill
Profile Blog Joined February 2009
Canada3402 Posts
October 04 2009 13:00 GMT
#9
thanks
looks like another toss graveyard hahaha
dont they have any well balanced maps (looking at stats) or is zerg is tearing shit up lately?
[~~The Impossible Leads To Invention~~] CJ Entusman #52 The problem with internet quotations is that they are hard to verify -Abraham Lincoln c.1863
JWD
Profile Blog Joined October 2007
United States12607 Posts
October 04 2009 13:01 GMT
#10
89>39 Z>P?

holy fuck

as if Protoss hasn't suffered enough already this year…

✌
mog87
Profile Joined October 2008
United States1586 Posts
October 04 2009 13:05 GMT
#11
Not sure why MBCGame, Hite, and Woonjin werent disected? And movie is pretty good dont underrate him so much.
Excalibur
Profile Joined September 2009
United States58 Posts
October 04 2009 13:07 GMT
#12
No wonder Protoss hasn't been doing well in these leagues....
Whats a 4pool?
JWD
Profile Blog Joined October 2007
United States12607 Posts
October 04 2009 13:10 GMT
#13
I'm just looking at these stats over and over, almost in disbelief…let's hope Protosses just bombed the preseason, because otherwise this is going to be one awful PL for a lot of my favorite players
✌
MooCow
Profile Joined September 2008
1434 Posts
October 04 2009 13:19 GMT
#14
Nice article.
If those stats are any reflection of the games we are going to see then I feel sad! Bisu nooo!
Guess JD is going to tear up again
Making history not reliving it.
Liquid`Nazgul
Profile Blog Joined September 2002
22427 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-10-04 13:39:07
October 04 2009 13:29 GMT
#15
There are definitely some easy tweaks they can make to help Protoss out. One quick one I noticed is on Acro which can be made much more similar to Andromeda with only minor changes. Change 3-6 back into islands and you help PvZ become viable with reaver/sair. Change the minerals direction/location of the expansion within your main a bit so tanks can't contain both your front and shoot the expansion uphill at the same time. Andromeda has this perfectly figured out with the expansion uphill just located far enough from the choke so that terran at first (when he still has fewer units) has to choose one or the other.

Roadrunner though; can't be made right with any tweaks. That is one terrible map.

Judgement day might turn out alright. Two relatively easy expansions should make PvZ somewhat playable. Maybe it's a bit hard like this for protoss to prevent zerg closing a whole side with one hatchery. Dunno what you can do about that, maybe make it a 3 player map or something so Protoss knows exactly what to focus on. But that's probably too big of a change to ever happen. I think Protoss will win a few games on this map as it is right now already.
Administrator
pR0gR4m3R
Profile Joined February 2008
Spain1446 Posts
October 04 2009 13:57 GMT
#16
Are all maps confirmed to be playable this ProLeague??
StarCraft-ESP.com Admin - Spanish StarCraft Community
konadora *
Profile Blog Joined February 2009
Singapore66145 Posts
October 04 2009 13:59 GMT
#17
Nope, it will be announced on Opening Day
POGGERS
dmetheny
Profile Joined July 2008
United States146 Posts
October 04 2009 14:00 GMT
#18
Well I don't know if the stats will exactly translate into the regular season as generally mediocre P's are worse than their Z and T counterparts and the majority of the players in these preseason games were mid-level or lower.
That said it still doesn't bode well, is it really that hard to throw a bone P's way kespa? Just one map they can call their own?
Bisu might have some trouble staying level with Flash and JD in terms of MVP stats this year.
YPang
Profile Blog Joined April 2007
United States4024 Posts
October 04 2009 14:14 GMT
#19
hahah fuck protoss!!
sMi.Gladstone | BW: B high| SC2: gold T_T
pripple
Profile Blog Joined May 2009
Finland1714 Posts
October 04 2009 14:18 GMT
#20
"Rumour has it that the currency involved was marshmallows, but still."
hahaha, Frozean getting some hate again, made me lol ;p

excellent writeup, nice poem aswell! i really hope it won't be as bad for protoss as it seems now, don't wanna see TvT & ZvZ only :|
Jaedong! <> Team MVP <> Mouz.
Alur
Profile Blog Joined March 2008
Denmark3900 Posts
October 04 2009 14:22 GMT
#21
Even thought it's not late,

Very comprehensive, i can't wait to play the maps on iCCup.
AKA No can Dazzle | https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PlTpX7z3Pok
TL+ Member
YPang
Profile Blog Joined April 2007
United States4024 Posts
October 04 2009 14:26 GMT
#22
i can't wait till these maps gets in iccup map pack.....
sMi.Gladstone | BW: B high| SC2: gold T_T
StarBrift
Profile Joined January 2008
Sweden1761 Posts
October 04 2009 14:34 GMT
#23
Don't like the fact that protoss has been ill favoured since the reign of the dragons. They could use some better maps this season. The upside of this is yaaaaaaay alot of TvZ?
konadora *
Profile Blog Joined February 2009
Singapore66145 Posts
October 04 2009 14:35 GMT
#24
On October 04 2009 23:26 YPang wrote:
i can't wait till these maps gets in iccup map pack.....

so that you can destroy some Protoss? :p
POGGERS
barth
Profile Joined March 2008
Ireland1272 Posts
October 04 2009 14:43 GMT
#25
On October 04 2009 23:14 YPang wrote:
hahah fuck protoss!!

I highly appreciate this post.
"Somebody you are talking to disappears mid sentence, and the universe shoots you because you talked to someone that wasn`t there." - MasterOfChaos
Spanxxx
Profile Joined February 2009
United States408 Posts
October 04 2009 14:46 GMT
#26
read it all. awesome read. tyvm! only thing i can think of is i hope bisu and best don't do bad this season.
If people arent trying to pull you down, you arent climbing high enough.
meegrean
Profile Joined May 2008
Thailand7699 Posts
October 04 2009 14:47 GMT
#27
I feel bad for Protoss
Brood War loyalist
Scaramanga
Profile Blog Joined March 2008
Australia8090 Posts
October 04 2009 14:52 GMT
#28
Pholon i wanna
Loda talked about the fun counter, it's AdmiralBulldog on his natures prophet
CaptainPlatypus
Profile Blog Joined March 2009
United States852 Posts
October 04 2009 14:54 GMT
#29
Awesome newspost, terrible news, worse poem. Seriously, last season was bad enough, and now we have a grand total of one map Protoss isn't doomed against either Terran or Zerg on, and it's motherfucking Silver Wing?

How about we just toss out all the new maps and play classics only for a season? :D
Deleted User 31060
Profile Blog Joined September 2007
3788 Posts
October 04 2009 14:56 GMT
#30
On October 04 2009 23:14 YPang wrote:
hahah fuck protoss!!


yes!!!

on a side note: these maps will catalyze the rise of backho.
Peaked at C- on ICCUP and proud of it! @Sunyveil
DivinO
Profile Blog Joined July 2009
United States4796 Posts
October 04 2009 15:03 GMT
#31
Love the article.

Does anyone know when the new 1.0 versions of the maps come out?
LiquipediaBrain in my filth.
baubo
Profile Joined September 2008
China3370 Posts
October 04 2009 15:28 GMT
#32
Man, bad season to be a Khan fan.

I think it's kind of sad that while many recent maps feature only TvTs or ZvZs, you have go all the way back to Katrina to find the last map filled with PvPs.
Meh
HonestTea *
Profile Blog Joined December 2005
5007 Posts
October 04 2009 15:34 GMT
#33
Into the..... WOW!
returns upon momentous occasions.
synapse
Profile Blog Joined January 2009
China13814 Posts
October 04 2009 15:37 GMT
#34
....wow P completely destroyed on almost all of the maps >.>
:)
blahman3344
Profile Blog Joined March 2009
United States2015 Posts
October 04 2009 15:45 GMT
#35
i think im gonna run away from iccup until next proleague season =P
I like haikus and / I can not lie. You other / brothers can't deny
SHr3DD3r
Profile Joined March 2009
Pakistan2137 Posts
October 04 2009 16:01 GMT
#36
Great article.

Protoss
Hit them hard! Hit them low! - Forever a Bisu Fan!~!
MuffinDude
Profile Blog Joined November 2008
United States3837 Posts
October 04 2009 16:07 GMT
#37
Fuck the imba maps. Now samsung will not get to the finals now, unless miracle/fbh/great steps it up.
Zerg can be so abusive sometimes | third member of the "loli is not a crime club" PM konadora to join!
RoieTRS
Profile Blog Joined July 2008
United States2569 Posts
October 04 2009 16:29 GMT
#38
Pokemon references.
lol
konadora, in Racenilatr's blog: "you need to stop thinking about starcraft or anything computer-related for that matter. It's becoming a bad addiction imo"
okum
Profile Blog Joined February 2009
France5778 Posts
October 04 2009 16:31 GMT
#39
This analysis seems to ignore the axiom that Starcraft is 100% balanced. The protoss players were just collectively slumping when playing PvZ on Asgard, and the zerg players were collectively slumping when playing ZvP on Match Point.
Flash fan before it was cool | Coiner of "jangbang"
Djabanete
Profile Blog Joined May 2008
United States2786 Posts
October 04 2009 16:33 GMT
#40
On October 05 2009 00:28 baubo wrote:
Man, bad season to be a Khan fan.


No way! FBH might win a TvP now.
May the BeSt man win.
Sabu113
Profile Blog Joined August 2009
United States11044 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-10-04 16:39:12
October 04 2009 16:37 GMT
#41
On October 04 2009 21:51 Pyrrhuloxia wrote:
Fuck Kespa. :'( My poor samsung boys are fucked .

T_T

On October 05 2009 01:33 Djabanete wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 05 2009 00:28 baubo wrote:
Man, bad season to be a Khan fan.


No way! FBH might win a TvP now.


We both know better than that.
Biomine is a drunken chick who is on industrial strength amphetamines and would just grab your dick and jerk it as hard and violently as she could while screaming 'OMG FUCK ME', because she saw it in a Sasha Grey video ...-Wombat_Ni
TheFallofTroy
Profile Joined May 2009
Canada780 Posts
October 04 2009 16:42 GMT
#42
Thanks for the writeup!

I just hope that the imbalances are worked out and that it will not be as bad for protoss as it seems.
^_^V
Iplaythings
Profile Blog Joined August 2009
Denmark9110 Posts
October 04 2009 16:46 GMT
#43
You forgot Much at Airforce ACE, other then that nice write up and the poem made me lol.
In the woods, there lurks..
Zato-1
Profile Blog Joined March 2009
Chile4253 Posts
October 04 2009 17:10 GMT
#44
On October 04 2009 22:01 JWD wrote:
89>39 Z>P?

holy fuck

as if Protoss hasn't suffered enough already this year…


Be fair, JWD.

Protoss also got steamrolled by Terran. You're making it look like Protoss only got curbstomped in PvZ.
Go here http://vina.biobiochile.cl/ and input the Konami Code (up up down down left right left right B A)
nayumi
Profile Blog Joined May 2009
Australia6499 Posts
October 04 2009 17:17 GMT
#45
I'm not good with technical stuffs but statistics alone say "imba" ...
Sugoi monogatari onii-chan!
Zholistic
Profile Joined July 2009
Australia278 Posts
October 04 2009 17:35 GMT
#46
I didn't see any team Random stats :/
"Scissors are overpowered. Rock is fine." -Paper
cunninglinguists
Profile Blog Joined November 2008
United States925 Posts
October 04 2009 17:38 GMT
#47
just fyi, there was no woongjin stars analysis.

p53
Profile Joined September 2009
297 Posts
October 04 2009 17:39 GMT
#48
On October 05 2009 01:37 Sabu113 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 04 2009 21:51 Pyrrhuloxia wrote:
Fuck Kespa. :'( My poor samsung boys are fucked .

T_T

Show nested quote +
On October 05 2009 01:33 Djabanete wrote:
On October 05 2009 00:28 baubo wrote:
Man, bad season to be a Khan fan.


No way! FBH might win a TvP now.


We both know better than that.


*Sigh*

I hope at least Dinotoss pulls through >.<
jalstar
Profile Blog Joined September 2009
United States8198 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-10-04 18:10:33
October 04 2009 18:06 GMT
#49
Preseason Map Test Race Stats (non-mirrors):
TvZ: 6-13 (31.6%) [ Games ]
ZvP: 10-7 (58.8%) [ Games ]
PvT: 10-7 (58.8%) [ Games ]


MBC Lineup Test Race Stats (non-mirrors):
TvZ: 10-5 (66.7%) [ Games ]
ZvP: 16-9 (64%) [ Games ]
PvT: 4-1 (80%) [ Games ]


Totals:

PvT: 59-88
ZvP: 115-55
TvZ: 82-87
JFKWT
Profile Blog Joined December 2008
Singapore1442 Posts
October 04 2009 18:11 GMT
#50
On October 04 2009 21:51 Pyrrhuloxia wrote:
Fuck Kespa. :'( My poor samsung boys are fucked .

Don't worry FBH will save you =p

On another note, looks like Stars is off to a great start with MVP Piano and Zero to rely for non-protoss. well at least Free did decently vZ
+ Show Spoiler +
on Acro


Wow looking at this makes me wonder other than the 6 dragons how the other protosses are going to overcome "map imba" or what have you
The calm before the storm / "loli is not a crime, but meganekko is the way to go!"
r33k
Profile Blog Joined March 2009
Italy3402 Posts
October 04 2009 18:12 GMT
#51
On October 05 2009 02:38 cunninglinguists wrote:
just fyi, there was no woongjin stars analysis.


Hite is missing aswell, and it's even a team someone might care about.
Skeggaba
Profile Blog Joined April 2009
Korea (South)1556 Posts
October 04 2009 18:16 GMT
#52
Awesome writeup!
Bisu[about JD]=I was scared (laughs). The force emanating from his facial expression was so manly that I was even a little jealous.
mOnion
Profile Blog Joined August 2009
United States5653 Posts
October 04 2009 18:30 GMT
#53
sigh

i Really wanted (P)Kal and (P)Violet to make a statement this season
but thanks to the FANTASTIC mapmakers
looks like thats not gonna happen -_-
☆★☆ 7486!!! Join the Ban mOnion Anti-Trolling Initiative! - Caller | "on a scale of machine to 10, how bad is that Zerg?" - LZgamer | you are the new tl.net bonjwa monion, congrats - Rekrul | "Cheeseburgers dynamite lilacs" - Chill
Heyoka
Profile Blog Joined March 2008
Katowice25012 Posts
October 04 2009 18:45 GMT
#54
I didn't realize this was going up today so I cleaned up the total results graph a little, feel free to refresh your page if you already have it loaded!
@RealHeyoka | ESL / DreamHack StarCraft Lead
Seraphim
Profile Blog Joined March 2006
United States4467 Posts
October 04 2009 19:03 GMT
#55
This season will be ugly
Hermes | Bisu[Shield] Fighting~!
ryuu_
Profile Blog Joined April 2009
United States1266 Posts
October 04 2009 19:12 GMT
#56
Thanks for this great writeup! Swarm season again?
♣ Jaedong. Stork. Bisu. Calm. NaDa. SC2: Sen, MKP, DRG, MMA, Grubby, NonY, Ret, Jinro, TLO, Sheth, HayprO, Zenio,Taeja,Snute, Sea, Rain, MC,Squirtle,Stephano,Parting ,Life, and HEROOOOO <3
hyst.eric.al
Profile Blog Joined June 2009
United States2332 Posts
October 04 2009 19:19 GMT
#57
i cry for aiur.

and lol at therock's carrier. may it fail.
Leta , BeSt, Calm fan forever! 김정우, I am sorry I ever lost faith in you.
Triple7
Profile Joined April 2009
United States656 Posts
October 04 2009 19:23 GMT
#58
I thought they were trying to make non-Zerg maps this season!
지지이이이이이이이이이이이
eshlow
Profile Joined June 2008
United States5210 Posts
October 04 2009 19:30 GMT
#59
That's some pretty disgusting stats for ZvP...
Overcoming Gravity: A Systematic Approach to Gymnastics and Bodyweight Strength
Grobyc
Profile Blog Joined June 2008
Canada18410 Posts
October 04 2009 19:39 GMT
#60
Thanks for the writeup and stats on the maps
If you watch Godzilla backwards it's about a benevolent lizard who helps rebuild a city and then moonwalks into the ocean.
Retsukage
Profile Blog Joined February 2008
United States1002 Posts
October 04 2009 19:45 GMT
#61
Alright here's to skipping this season and waiting till sc2 comes out!!!!
wooooo!!!


To change is to improve, to change often is to be perfect - Winston Chruchill
Nevuk
Profile Blog Joined March 2009
United States16280 Posts
October 04 2009 20:23 GMT
#62
I'm hoping that all the P players got together in a strange conspiracy to collectively fail on the preseason map tests, to force the maps to be toss-favored.
Misrah
Profile Blog Joined February 2008
United States1695 Posts
October 04 2009 20:25 GMT
#63
hey great read, thanks so much for all of the effort you put into this!
A thread vaguely bashing SC2? SWARM ON, LOW POST COUNT BRETHREN! DEFEND THE GLORIOUS GAME THAT IS OUR LIVELIHOOD
StorrZerg
Profile Blog Joined February 2008
United States13918 Posts
October 04 2009 20:57 GMT
#64
thanks for the hard work IntoTheWow

great read
Hwaseung Oz fan for life. Swing out, always swing out.
ImNotBisu
Profile Joined July 2009
Canada142 Posts
October 04 2009 21:03 GMT
#65
Sigh, guess we won't be seeing a return of the GAP (Gold Age of Protoss).

:[
ShaperofDreams
Profile Blog Joined December 2008
Canada2492 Posts
October 04 2009 21:08 GMT
#66
Looks like Jaedong is getting another title.

How can map-makers screw up this badly? Perhaps there should be a map or two solely for each individual match up. That way a map just has to be balanced one way, I imagine it's hard to tweak a balance feature without messing another one up.
Bitches don't know about my overlord. FUCK OFF ALDARIS I HAVE ENOUGH PYLONS. My Balls are as smooth as Eggs.
endy
Profile Blog Joined May 2009
Switzerland8970 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-10-04 21:09:56
October 04 2009 21:09 GMT
#67
great article thx!
wtf is wrong with kespa, P: Z 39:89 and P:T 45:80
time's definitely up for the dragons
ॐ
FranzF1
Profile Blog Joined March 2009
Chile1710 Posts
October 04 2009 21:17 GMT
#68
For me its not kespa fault or maps faults.. its just that Terrans and Zergs keep improving always.. and Toss last new thing was just Bisu corsair/dt build (yeah like 1 year or more ago)... they need news strategies and I put my faith on Stork and Jangbi.

Cus terrans got fantasy agresive TvP or new style of ZvP by Jaedong and others... Toss just need a new or old player to play diferent and the trend will change.
Member #99999^99 of the fanclub of Grape, Reality and TurN
MuffinDude
Profile Blog Joined November 2008
United States3837 Posts
October 04 2009 21:31 GMT
#69
On October 05 2009 06:17 FranzF1 wrote:
For me its not kespa fault or maps faults.. its just that Terrans and Zergs keep improving always.. and Toss last new thing was just Bisu corsair/dt build (yeah like 1 year or more ago)... they need news strategies and I put my faith on Stork and Jangbi.

Cus terrans got fantasy agresive TvP or new style of ZvP by Jaedong and others... Toss just need a new or old player to play diferent and the trend will change.


It doesn't change the fact that its imba maps. Stork has already shown a way to stop fantasy's aggressive play and its not like all z can copy jaedong's play.
Zerg can be so abusive sometimes | third member of the "loli is not a crime club" PM konadora to join!
DarkShadowz
Profile Joined December 2008
Sweden321 Posts
October 04 2009 22:44 GMT
#70
Seems like Bisu is right when he complain about maps.

Great write up.
Crunchums
Profile Blog Joined December 2008
United States11143 Posts
October 04 2009 22:46 GMT
#71
Asgard, match point, tornado, and silver wing are all acceptable maps that hopefully won't be too imbalanced.
Judgement Day, acro, and road runner look awful and boring and I hope they don't get used.
I don't have an opinion on moon glaive.
brood war for life, brood war forever
khy
Profile Blog Joined October 2008
United States475 Posts
October 04 2009 22:58 GMT
#72
I guess they're looking to overturn the Legend of the Fall.

Here's to hoping that Bisu pulls something off regardless
koreasilver
Profile Blog Joined June 2008
9109 Posts
October 04 2009 23:00 GMT
#73
The preliminary stats are depressing.
skronch
Profile Blog Joined December 2008
United States2717 Posts
October 04 2009 23:26 GMT
#74
the map stats are pretty dissapointing. as much fun as it is to watch protoss fail, watching tvz's has begun to get stale, and the mirror matches aren't great either.
jalstar
Profile Blog Joined September 2009
United States8198 Posts
October 04 2009 23:30 GMT
#75
OSL and MSL introduce new maps, right? Maybe they'll have some more balanced ones.
logic13
Profile Blog Joined August 2009
Sweden128 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-10-04 23:50:05
October 04 2009 23:49 GMT
#76
Great write up!
FranzF1
Profile Blog Joined March 2009
Chile1710 Posts
October 04 2009 23:50 GMT
#77
Its not that I hate protoss (my fav team khan lol) but I hate that actitude of every toss player... "yeah maps are imba we are lost gg no re" its like a lazy way of justify that they are playing badly and its all Bisu fault.. I dont remember stork crying about map imba (well maybe a little like every player)... for me maps where Imba before, when nat didnt have gas or with like 2 gas expa for map, that was imba.

Also could someone who understand SC very good correct me if im wrong, but for me when a map is made with a little P>Z imba results on a map T>P too? (well not like really T>>>P but like bridges and narrow paths goods for storms, no big center..etc..)
Member #99999^99 of the fanclub of Grape, Reality and TurN
MountainDewJunkie
Profile Blog Joined June 2009
United States10340 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-10-04 23:53:35
October 04 2009 23:52 GMT
#78
Is no one considering the obviousness that protoss have yet to create a solid response to the 5-hatch build, or simply how fe is still so vulnerable to 2/3 hatch hydra breaks? When each new distinct map shows this level of imbalance after a swarm season, it shows that zergs still have superior builds at the moment. It's a little laughable to think that all of these maps were somehow unintentionally (or otherwise) designed to a zerg's advantage; it's more plausible that protoss have yet to adapt. Those are my thoughts on PvZ, anyway.

[You don't know shit! They're all just imba! Obviously you know nothing about PvZ! (perhaps) Thanks for this useless post!]
[21:07] <Shock710> whats wrong with her face [20:50] <dAPhREAk> i beat it the day after it came out | <BLinD-RawR> esports is a giant vagina
GoAudio
Profile Blog Joined November 2008
Sweden400 Posts
October 05 2009 00:05 GMT
#79
good... this is nice.
EffOrt[fOu] & Hyvaa[S.G] <3 :D
keV.
Profile Blog Joined February 2009
United States3214 Posts
October 05 2009 00:19 GMT
#80
Wonderful write up!

I'm liking matchpoint and moonglaive
"brevity is the soul of wit" - William Shakesman
MageKirby
Profile Joined July 2009
United States535 Posts
October 05 2009 00:23 GMT
#81
"IMBA!!!!" o-o;;;
baubo
Profile Joined September 2008
China3370 Posts
October 05 2009 00:41 GMT
#82
On October 05 2009 06:17 FranzF1 wrote:
For me its not kespa fault or maps faults.. its just that Terrans and Zergs keep improving always.. and Toss last new thing was just Bisu corsair/dt build (yeah like 1 year or more ago)... they need news strategies and I put my faith on Stork and Jangbi.


There's a very easy way to find out. Simply make a map that resembles Katrina or Monty Hall, and see how these new great zergs do on them.

Meh
Camlito
Profile Blog Joined July 2007
Australia4040 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-10-05 01:49:58
October 05 2009 01:01 GMT
#83
Damn.. my favourite map to play on of the new maps is the only p>z map..
sAviOr...
aeroH
Profile Blog Joined February 2009
United States1034 Posts
October 05 2009 01:03 GMT
#84
On October 05 2009 10:01 Camlito wrote:
Gay.. my favourite map to play on of the new maps is the only p>z map..

ugh..
Kyo Yuy
Profile Joined January 2009
United States1286 Posts
October 05 2009 01:06 GMT
#85
On October 05 2009 08:52 MountainDewJunkie wrote:
Is no one considering the obviousness that protoss have yet to create a solid response to the 5-hatch build, or simply how fe is still so vulnerable to 2/3 hatch hydra breaks? When each new distinct map shows this level of imbalance after a swarm season, it shows that zergs still have superior builds at the moment. It's a little laughable to think that all of these maps were somehow unintentionally (or otherwise) designed to a zerg's advantage; it's more plausible that protoss have yet to adapt. Those are my thoughts on PvZ, anyway.

[You don't know shit! They're all just imba! Obviously you know nothing about PvZ! (perhaps) Thanks for this useless post!]

Yet when Protoss was dominating in fall of 2008, everyone was crying how the maps were imba for Protoss rather than saying that Protoss were just doing really well and Zerg just weren't adapting.

I doubt maps were designed to give advantage to any race - maps are designed just with certain ideas in mind, regardless of potential balance issues. That's why map testing is done, to see how balance issues are affected by the maps.

There was a period of time when maps were EXTREMELY Terran favored, and that wasn't because anyone was intentionally trying to make Terran favored maps. That's just the way mapmakers designed things.

PvZ has always been a difficult matchup for P to play though. The "dominance" or even "balance" in which P could hold their own against Z only surfaced in about 2007. It's really really difficult for Protoss to come up with good builds against Zerg, that's nothing new.

If the maps aren't "imba," then perhaps it is simply a matter of fact that the infamous ZvP imbalance has finally resurfaced after 2 years.
#1 KawaiiRice fan :D
Mastermind
Profile Blog Joined April 2008
Canada7096 Posts
October 05 2009 01:12 GMT
#86
On October 05 2009 10:01 Camlito wrote:
Gay.. my favourite map to play on of the new maps is the only p>z map..

ya, thats so gay. I cant believe they are allowing in one map with p > z. Thats bullshit.
Zato-1
Profile Blog Joined March 2009
Chile4253 Posts
October 05 2009 01:13 GMT
#87
On October 05 2009 10:06 Kyo Yuy wrote:
If the maps aren't "imba," then perhaps it is simply a matter of fact that the infamous ZvP imbalance has finally resurfaced after 2 years.

I'm leaning towards this theory, myself.
Go here http://vina.biobiochile.cl/ and input the Konami Code (up up down down left right left right B A)
Fontong
Profile Blog Joined December 2007
United States6454 Posts
October 05 2009 01:36 GMT
#88
Are people really saying that maps with two entrances to the nat aren't imbalanced Z > P?

That's just bullshit.
[SECRET FONT] "Dragoon bunker"
Empyrean
Profile Blog Joined September 2004
16957 Posts
October 05 2009 01:43 GMT
#89
When I read that Hwaseung resigned Jaedong, it took me a while before I realize you meant "re-signed". I was really confused as to why Hwaseung would be relieved that Jaedong was leaving hahaha XD
Moderator
Camlito
Profile Blog Joined July 2007
Australia4040 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-10-05 01:58:02
October 05 2009 01:48 GMT
#90
On October 05 2009 10:12 Mastermind wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 05 2009 10:01 Camlito wrote:
Gay.. my favourite map to play on of the new maps is the only p>z map..

ya, thats so gay. I cant believe they are allowing in one map with p > z. Thats bullshit.


:l
sAviOr...
Apex
Profile Blog Joined January 2009
United States7227 Posts
October 05 2009 02:34 GMT
#91
Don't worry, the Legend of the Fall will save PvZ! + Show Spoiler +


SilverSkyLark
Profile Blog Joined April 2008
Philippines8437 Posts
October 05 2009 02:47 GMT
#92
Damn, too bad my analysis weren't finished on time...hahaha.
"If i lost an arm, I would play w3." -IntoTheWow || "Member of Hyuk Hyuk Hyuk cafe. He's the next Jaedong, baby!"
SilverSkyLark
Profile Blog Joined April 2008
Philippines8437 Posts
October 05 2009 02:54 GMT
#93
On October 05 2009 10:36 Fontong wrote:
Are people really saying that maps with two entrances to the nat aren't imbalanced Z > P?

That's just bullshit.

Depends, Asgard can be walled off to effectively minimize the imbalance that is 2 nat entrance...
+ Show Spoiler +

[image loading]


[image loading]
"If i lost an arm, I would play w3." -IntoTheWow || "Member of Hyuk Hyuk Hyuk cafe. He's the next Jaedong, baby!"
Musoeun
Profile Blog Joined March 2009
United States4324 Posts
October 05 2009 03:09 GMT
#94
Great article! A couple nitpicks though:

1) Statistically Protoss held their own on Shades. Yes it got a ton of TvT on it, but the Protoss who played did okay. There were some flukey results all round, from garbage matches (Kal > Casy) to stupid games (Last > Stork), but it looked decent for Protoss, even for PvZ (not that there was much to go by). I still don't fully understand why we didn't see more Protoss there.

2) I really wasn't paying attention to the map and lineup matches that much - watched them all but let's be honest, the majority of these games we had minor leaguers playing. Is that to say the results can be completely discounted? No, of course not - but I do want to note that things could be a little different when we see the real stars playing for real.

Other than that, although I'm not a big fan of a lot of these maps for now I'm going with the "no innovation" idea as the major problem facing Protoss.
Don't Shoot the Penguins. | Dance, 성은, dance! | Killer FanKlub | Action sucks. | Storm Terran hwaiting.
D4L[invd]
Profile Blog Joined May 2009
Canada110 Posts
October 05 2009 03:24 GMT
#95
What happened to the sanctity of balanced maps!
Your average D Protoss that can't get out of D because it is full of Protoss and my PvP sucks.
MuffinDude
Profile Blog Joined November 2008
United States3837 Posts
October 05 2009 03:32 GMT
#96
On October 05 2009 08:50 FranzF1 wrote:
Its not that I hate protoss (my fav team khan lol) but I hate that actitude of every toss player... "yeah maps are imba we are lost gg no re" its like a lazy way of justify that they are playing badly and its all Bisu fault.. I dont remember stork crying about map imba (well maybe a little like every player)... for me maps where Imba before, when nat didnt have gas or with like 2 gas expa for map, that was imba.

Also could someone who understand SC very good correct me if im wrong, but for me when a map is made with a little P>Z imba results on a map T>P too? (well not like really T>>>P but like bridges and narrow paths goods for storms, no big center..etc..)


Thats only if protoss can survive to templar tech without falling too far behind. Its really lame because pvz was imba to begin with and only after bisu build came around, did the match up become playable, but the bisu build requires couple requirement, such as narrow nat choke and all, for it to be used effectively. I was hoping kespa would think of this but apparently they didn't on some maps.
Zerg can be so abusive sometimes | third member of the "loli is not a crime club" PM konadora to join!
Zato-1
Profile Blog Joined March 2009
Chile4253 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-10-05 03:39:33
October 05 2009 03:35 GMT
#97
On October 05 2009 12:09 Musoeun wrote:
Other than that, although I'm not a big fan of a lot of these maps for now I'm going with the "no innovation" idea as the major problem facing Protoss.

My problem with this theory is that it has no expiration date.

Protoss has been having a rough year so far. According to the latest map testing, this will not get better anytime soon. We've seen how many Zerg and Terran players rising through the ranks?

Terran:
Skyhigh's been doing quite well.
Iris is having a resurgence.
Leta's still doing well enough.
Canata came out of nowhere to become someone relevant.
Light's been surprising every MBC fan out there.

There's others, too. But there are plenty of Terran players who are doing just fine.

Zerg:
Calm's performance has been better than anyone would've predicted.
EffOrt has been a major Zerg player for several months now.
YellOw[ArnC] is doing surprisingly well.
Kwanro's had better performance than I thought was possible.

It's not all rosy for the Zerg and Terrans, of course. But there's plenty of recent success stories.

Protoss? Well, there's still Bisu. Just like there's still Jaedong and Flash.

Who else? Violet? He's been doing well. For a Protoss.

The six dragons? Bisu apart, the question is which of them has fallen the farthest. free is narrowly beating BeSt in a freefall competition.

So, about that expiration date:
How many more Terran and Zerg rising stars do we need? I'm not saying the theory of Protoss players playing badly is necessarily wrong, mind you: Just that if Terran and Zerg keep having new success stories and Protoss keeps failing, eventually this theory has to be disproven. How much longer does Protoss have to keep tailing behind before we agree that the problem is not that all the skilled players just happened to choose Terran and Zerg?
Go here http://vina.biobiochile.cl/ and input the Konami Code (up up down down left right left right B A)
baubo
Profile Joined September 2008
China3370 Posts
October 05 2009 03:47 GMT
#98
On October 05 2009 10:06 Kyo Yuy wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 05 2009 08:52 MountainDewJunkie wrote:
Is no one considering the obviousness that protoss have yet to create a solid response to the 5-hatch build, or simply how fe is still so vulnerable to 2/3 hatch hydra breaks? When each new distinct map shows this level of imbalance after a swarm season, it shows that zergs still have superior builds at the moment. It's a little laughable to think that all of these maps were somehow unintentionally (or otherwise) designed to a zerg's advantage; it's more plausible that protoss have yet to adapt. Those are my thoughts on PvZ, anyway.

[You don't know shit! They're all just imba! Obviously you know nothing about PvZ! (perhaps) Thanks for this useless post!]

Yet when Protoss was dominating in fall of 2008, everyone was crying how the maps were imba for Protoss rather than saying that Protoss were just doing really well and Zerg just weren't adapting.

I doubt maps were designed to give advantage to any race - maps are designed just with certain ideas in mind, regardless of potential balance issues. That's why map testing is done, to see how balance issues are affected by the maps.

There was a period of time when maps were EXTREMELY Terran favored, and that wasn't because anyone was intentionally trying to make Terran favored maps. That's just the way mapmakers designed things.

PvZ has always been a difficult matchup for P to play though. The "dominance" or even "balance" in which P could hold their own against Z only surfaced in about 2007. It's really really difficult for Protoss to come up with good builds against Zerg, that's nothing new.

If the maps aren't "imba," then perhaps it is simply a matter of fact that the infamous ZvP imbalance has finally resurfaced after 2 years.


Avoid giving zerg a quick, easily defendable 3rd gas, and I can guarantee you that the infamous ZvP imbalance would disappear real quickly, and the vaunted 5-hatch build wouldn't look so vaunted.

Add in some island properties to the maps(Troy, Monty Hall, Plasma), and I can guarantee zergs will be screaming imba on top of their lungs.
Meh
Musoeun
Profile Blog Joined March 2009
United States4324 Posts
October 05 2009 03:56 GMT
#99
I'm not saying Protoss is playing badly; they're just lacking the innovation edge. Now, there are two possibilities:

Option 1) This is the players/coaches fault. They're just not finding the next breakthroughs and refinements that would allow them to have/regain the edge. Protoss vs Terran seems to have stagnated on both sides since arbiters and science vessels came into common play, and over the last year as a whole, it's still left Protoss with a slight edge in that match-up. For PvZ, though, Protoss just doesn't appear to have an answer to the variety of things Zergs can throw at them. For this reason alone, (P)Movie is my Protoss to watch - of all the decent-to-good Protoss playing right now, he's tried the weirdest things recently, and with some success, even if they've mostly seemed to be one-off builds so far.

Of course, Protoss had problems for ages before the Taek-Bang era, so maybe this is just reversion to form.

Option 2) Protoss really is played out. Starcraft is a hugely complex game, so this seems really unlikely, but it might possibly be the case. After all the game is 10 years old. But yes, I have no real evidence to support this idea, I'm just mentioning it as something which is technically possible.
2a) Protoss is played out on the current-generation of macro-maps. Maps don't explain all balance, but they can have a huge impact on some parts of the game (easy examples: God's Garden vs Neo Requiem, Battle Royale vs Katrina).
Don't Shoot the Penguins. | Dance, 성은, dance! | Killer FanKlub | Action sucks. | Storm Terran hwaiting.
Eatme
Profile Blog Joined June 2003
Switzerland3919 Posts
October 05 2009 03:58 GMT
#100
Well I'll be playing 100% on roadrunner for a while now unless the metagame evolves. Sadly my lack of skill migh affect the outcome.
I have the best fucking lawyers in the country including the man they call the Malmis.
ArvickHero
Profile Blog Joined October 2007
10387 Posts
October 05 2009 04:16 GMT
#101
On October 05 2009 11:54 SilverSkyLark wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 05 2009 10:36 Fontong wrote:
Are people really saying that maps with two entrances to the nat aren't imbalanced Z > P?

That's just bullshit.

Depends, Asgard can be walled off to effectively minimize the imbalance that is 2 nat entrance...
+ Show Spoiler +

[image loading]


[image loading]

If you have to make 3 cannons to FE, then there is something wrong.
Writerptrk
jfazz
Profile Joined September 2009
Australia672 Posts
October 05 2009 04:23 GMT
#102
Amazing write-up, thanks! Very excited about the new PL season now!
Victory needs no explanation, defeat allows none
thunk
Profile Blog Joined March 2008
United States6233 Posts
October 05 2009 04:34 GMT
#103
SKT1 is actually not doing so hot; if the maps require dependable zergs...they should have bought Jaedong in the off season.

I think CJ and STX will do well this season.
Every time Jung Myung Hoon builds a vulture, two probes die. || My post count was a palindrome and I was never posting again.
Raiken
Profile Joined October 2009
Canada49 Posts
October 05 2009 04:51 GMT
#104
Protoss Just sort of dies here, good thing I play zerg. Once these maps become used in iCCup, then I will be winning more games... MUAHAHAHAHHAHAHA. Blah.
Death is something that you should embrace, instead of running away from it. Fantasy supporter :D
SilverSkyLark
Profile Blog Joined April 2008
Philippines8437 Posts
October 05 2009 05:08 GMT
#105
On October 05 2009 13:16 ArvickHero wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 05 2009 11:54 SilverSkyLark wrote:
On October 05 2009 10:36 Fontong wrote:
Are people really saying that maps with two entrances to the nat aren't imbalanced Z > P?

That's just bullshit.

Depends, Asgard can be walled off to effectively minimize the imbalance that is 2 nat entrance...
+ Show Spoiler +

[image loading]


[image loading]

If you have to make 3 cannons to FE, then there is something wrong.

The third one is of course optional.
"If i lost an arm, I would play w3." -IntoTheWow || "Member of Hyuk Hyuk Hyuk cafe. He's the next Jaedong, baby!"
meeple
Profile Blog Joined April 2009
Canada10211 Posts
October 05 2009 05:12 GMT
#106
awesome... just awesome... thanks for this
fearus
Profile Blog Joined December 2003
China2164 Posts
October 05 2009 06:26 GMT
#107
protoss graveyardz
bisu fanboy
darkemperor
Profile Blog Joined August 2008
Turkey725 Posts
October 05 2009 08:36 GMT
#108
Protoss is the victor in only 4 out of 16 D: Surely graveyard, but let's believe in Legend of the Fall!!!!!!
#1 Kim Taek Yong Fan <3 || Legend of the Fall // Fall of the Legend
Promises
Profile Joined February 2004
Netherlands1821 Posts
October 05 2009 08:44 GMT
#109
So they do this pre-season map"testing" to see if there are any imbalances in the maps. Clearly there are. Does that mean anything will change or is this the final take?
I'm a man of my word, and that word is "unreliable".
Metaspace
Profile Joined November 2006
Austria670 Posts
October 05 2009 08:52 GMT
#110
cool report!
Wir haben zuwenig Vespingas!
Suc
Profile Blog Joined January 2009
Australia1569 Posts
October 05 2009 08:53 GMT
#111
Hyuk will just have to bring the pain for skt1
BloodDrunK
Profile Blog Joined August 2009
Bangladesh2767 Posts
October 05 2009 10:13 GMT
#112
great writeup.very detailed.looks like protoss players are screwed.
You have the power to create your own destiny.
SkytoM
Profile Blog Joined July 2009
Austria1137 Posts
October 05 2009 10:31 GMT
#113
lol @ silverwing. that map is the best! how can you not see that? big and small bridge.. very interesting how that will pan out.
Bisu... ;-(
elar
Profile Joined May 2008
Panama11 Posts
October 05 2009 11:12 GMT
#114
lets see if bisu can win in those maps : O
Loanshark
Profile Blog Joined December 2008
China3094 Posts
October 05 2009 12:55 GMT
#115
can't wait for this to start.
No dough, no go. And no mercy.
arbiter_md
Profile Joined February 2008
Moldova1219 Posts
October 05 2009 13:37 GMT
#116
Hope they keep Destination, Medusa and Heatbreak ridge for another season. Otherwise it will be just meaningless drama.
The copyright of this post belongs solely to me. Nobody else, not teamliquid, not greetech and not even blizzard have any share of this copyright. You can copy, distribute, use in commercial purposes the content of this post or parts of it freely.
disciple
Profile Blog Joined January 2008
9070 Posts
October 05 2009 15:21 GMT
#117
I think that actually some gay boss at the KeSpa map making team is trying to seduce Jaedong. But meh, if thats the way to create the guy to "the best player of all time, most dominant mofo in history of the esports its not even debatable, bisu sux" then so be it
Administrator"I'm a big deal." - ixmike88
Kazius
Profile Blog Joined August 2009
Israel1456 Posts
October 05 2009 16:03 GMT
#118
Arg. I've had enough TvTs and ZvZs to last me a long time the last season.
Friendship is like peeing yourself. Anyone can see it, but only you get that warm feeling.
Salteador Neo
Profile Blog Joined August 2009
Andorra5591 Posts
October 05 2009 16:18 GMT
#119
Fucking retarded maps against toss as many of us said when we first looked at them xD Not really looking forward to the next PL if these are the used maps. I usually just skip most of the TvT's and ZvZ's (even TvZ's if there's not some special player in them... like JD, Flash or Fantasy). So yeah.
Revolutionist fan
da_head
Profile Blog Joined November 2008
Canada3350 Posts
October 05 2009 17:58 GMT
#120
fuck this, i'm stickin to bgh on us east till next season T-T
When they see MC Probe, all the ladies disrobe.
FakeKisser
Profile Joined September 2008
United States159 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-10-05 19:08:16
October 05 2009 18:57 GMT
#121
I really hope they clean up those maps a bit. I do hope Terran fair the best this season, but it's not fun if it is only because of the maps. It would be great to see all three races played equally and equally represented in the StarLeagues!

P.S. ROFL at Captain TheRock!!! :D
"Every generation needs a revolution" - Thomas Jefferson
Wineandbread
Profile Joined September 2009
United States2065 Posts
October 05 2009 19:54 GMT
#122
Wow, Protoss is going to get dominated. :d

I really like the look of some of the new maps though. Moon Glaive is b(^.^)b
Armathai
Profile Joined October 2007
1023 Posts
October 05 2009 22:19 GMT
#123
Thanks for the write-up and analysis it was great!

Well I'm glad terrans get some decent maps for once, despite everything being nerfed again^^
I wish they'd balance out pvz so I could quit hearing the whining of all the imba protoss players :D

Looking for ArcticCerebrate formerly from @USEast
Slow Motion
Profile Blog Joined July 2009
United States6960 Posts
October 06 2009 02:02 GMT
#124
Believe in Bisu, guys.
Duckvillelol
Profile Blog Joined July 2009
Australia1239 Posts
October 06 2009 03:24 GMT
#125
Are these updated versions of the maps avaliable somewhere? I haven't been able to find them.
Former SC2 commentator. youtube.com/duckvillelol
Vazze
Profile Joined August 2009
Sweden279 Posts
October 06 2009 21:25 GMT
#126
Very nice read Even nicer that Moon Glaive will be used in Proleague, my favourite map :D
Jung Myung Hoon and Doh Jae Wook fan!
DreaM)XeRO
Profile Blog Joined December 2008
Korea (South)4667 Posts
October 07 2009 00:15 GMT
#127
ah. i should have read this before choosing my fantasy team
i have Bisu, Jangbi AND Stork.

oh man. OHHHHHHHHH MAN
cw)minsean(ru
HeaDStrong
Profile Blog Joined January 2009
Scotland785 Posts
October 07 2009 16:25 GMT
#128
i really hope the next PL season will not suck: watching only tvz, zvz and tvt and some onesided p versus anything will not bring lot of excitement
nimbim
Profile Blog Joined June 2009
Germany983 Posts
October 08 2009 07:05 GMT
#129
thanks for this analysis, very interesting read
Redunzl
Profile Blog Joined January 2010
862 Posts
February 02 2010 07:31 GMT
#130
love this kind of thread. there needs to be more map discussions either here in the strategy forums or on liquipedia. ideally, there should be a place to discuss, for example, pvt on tornado...where can i do that t.t
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