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You also need a dark shrine, twilight council and cyber core I think. Build times 100, 50 and 50 respectively. (Instead of a citadel and temp archives)
150 minerals
150 + 100 gas
100 minerals + 250 gas.
(400 minerals, 350 gas and 200 build time).
A dt has 55 build time and 125/125 cost. (25 more vespene than in SC1, but since they can make twilight archons it makes sense to me).
So 525 minerals / 475 gas and 255 build time for this.
In this time the Z will have gotten an additional 10 rounds of larva production - 40 extra larva on one hatch from one queen. In SC1, one hatchery would have produced 19.6 larva in this same time frame - you have to add this amount onto what the Z is getting from his queen.
More realistically, in SC1 the zerg would have 2 hatcheries while you're teching like this. (Maybe 3). They would get 39.2 larva with 2, probably something like 50 larva with 3 (I think the 3rd hatch doesn't go down before the cyber core starts, and definitely wouldn't finish before it).
But then consider that a Z will almost definitely expand and get another hatch at some point in SC2 if you're going a full tech route, which is pretty noticeable (run one ling up the ramp go "oh there's only 2 zealots"), and in the same scenario be able to get out another queen and have 2 hatches with constant larva spawn going- which is 8 larva from the queens and 6 larva from the hatches... I don't want to do the math anymore. Suffice it to say, that they could have something like 90-100 larva instead of the 70 the 1 base Z would get. These are just random guesses for the sc2 #'s , but they're within the realm of what is possible.
The problem is that this is an exponential flaw - the longer the game goes on, the more useful it becomes to use the queen. This isn't true of mules at all, and the photon charge doesn't scale nearly the same way. The exponential nature of SC economics also greatly factors into this.
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On September 03 2009 16:35 Nevuk wrote:
You also need a dark shrine, twilight council and cyber core I think. Build times 100, 50 and 50 respectively. (Instead of a citadel and temp archives)
150 minerals
150 + 100 gas
100 minerals + 250 gas.
(400 minerals, 350 gas and 200 build time).
A dt has 55 build time and 125/125 cost. (25 more vespene than in SC1, but since they can make twilight archons it makes sense to me).
So 525 minerals / 475 gas and 255 build time for this.
In this time the Z will have gotten an additional 10 rounds of larva production - 40 extra larva on one hatch from one queen. In SC1, one hatchery would have produced 19.6 larva in this same time frame - you have to add this amount onto what the Z is getting from his queen.
More realistically, in SC1 the zerg would have 2 hatcheries while you're teching like this. (Maybe 3). They would get 39.2 larva with 2, probably something like 50 larva with 3 (I think the 3rd hatch doesn't go down before the cyber core starts, and definitely wouldn't finish before it).
But then consider that a Z will almost definitely expand and get another hatch at some point in SC2 if you're going a full tech route, which is pretty noticeable (run one ling up the ramp go "oh there's only 2 zealots"), and in the same scenario be able to get out another queen and have 2 hatches with constant larva spawn going- which is 8 larva from the queens and 6 larva from the hatches... I don't want to do the math anymore. Suffice it to say, that they could have something like 90-100 larva instead of the 70 the 1 base Z would get. These are just random guesses for the sc2 #'s , but they're within the realm of what is possible.
The problem is that this is an exponential flaw - the longer the game goes on, the more useful it becomes to use the queen. This isn't true of mules at all, and the photon charge doesn't scale nearly the same way. The exponential nature of SC economics also greatly factors into this.
Although I agree about the exponential nature, you still must remember all those larvae still cost minerals/gas to transform into units! (yeah yeah, I know you'll have a better econ as a result, etc.)
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hmmm. if this hasnt been playtested at blizzard, they seriously need to rethink their playtesting approach. they seem to be doing similar intuitive builds in all their battle reports, and not trying out unintuitive but possible builds like this. i dunno. no judgment until official word from them i guess.
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On September 03 2009 16:42 FabledIntegral wrote:Show nested quote +On September 03 2009 16:35 Nevuk wrote:
You also need a dark shrine, twilight council and cyber core I think. Build times 100, 50 and 50 respectively. (Instead of a citadel and temp archives)
150 minerals
150 + 100 gas
100 minerals + 250 gas.
(400 minerals, 350 gas and 200 build time).
A dt has 55 build time and 125/125 cost. (25 more vespene than in SC1, but since they can make twilight archons it makes sense to me).
So 525 minerals / 475 gas and 255 build time for this.
In this time the Z will have gotten an additional 10 rounds of larva production - 40 extra larva on one hatch from one queen. In SC1, one hatchery would have produced 19.6 larva in this same time frame - you have to add this amount onto what the Z is getting from his queen.
More realistically, in SC1 the zerg would have 2 hatcheries while you're teching like this. (Maybe 3). They would get 39.2 larva with 2, probably something like 50 larva with 3 (I think the 3rd hatch doesn't go down before the cyber core starts, and definitely wouldn't finish before it).
But then consider that a Z will almost definitely expand and get another hatch at some point in SC2 if you're going a full tech route, which is pretty noticeable (run one ling up the ramp go "oh there's only 2 zealots"), and in the same scenario be able to get out another queen and have 2 hatches with constant larva spawn going- which is 8 larva from the queens and 6 larva from the hatches... I don't want to do the math anymore. Suffice it to say, that they could have something like 90-100 larva instead of the 70 the 1 base Z would get. These are just random guesses for the sc2 #'s , but they're within the realm of what is possible.
The problem is that this is an exponential flaw - the longer the game goes on, the more useful it becomes to use the queen. This isn't true of mules at all, and the photon charge doesn't scale nearly the same way. The exponential nature of SC economics also greatly factors into this. Although I agree about the exponential nature, you still must remember all those larvae still cost minerals/gas to transform into units! (yeah yeah, I know you'll have a better econ as a result, etc.)
Yeah, but no one ever complained that you had to pay minerals to make hydralisks and drones before before 
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THE QUEEN: Not just a unit for Jaedong to BM FBH anymore!
BLIZZARD PLAYTESTERS: Need help. Hire me. Hell, I'll work for free for a week. Think OUTSIDE THE BOX, this isn't SC1 folks.
Very solid article, and very interesting information. It's interesting how Blizzard and Gamereplays are saying one thing, while this article states the exact opposite O_O
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OK so its impossible to find a demo or a vid with Zerg winning a game, everyone said zerg was weak etc.
and now this?
WTF?
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- Inject 3 instead of 4 larvae for 40 energy instead of 25?
- Have the queen cost gas to build and make it move slower so it can't chase scouts?
- Don't inject larvae for "free" (energy), but let the queen build a temporary nest building for resources which spawns extra larvae and then dies?
A solution must be found that makes the queen inferior to a hatchery for pure production purposes. The choice should be between a hatchery for economy and and a queen for a bit less production but added flexibility.
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This 1 hat queen build is so damn scary.,... especially me being a P player.
The thing that scares me most is not just the power zerg has early on, but the fact that they have the ability to saturate their mining bases like P/T and yet expand much more than the other races due to Z's superior mobility.
PS:
whatever happened to the nullifiers David Kim used in battle report 3? If they're not gone, I could see these as a good counter to most early ling rushes or even hydra rushes.
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So P and T macro specialities dont counter (help against) the Zerg one ? Sounds wierd that zerg can 1base so easy and P or T dont have enough resourses from 1base.
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Could inject be scalable with tiers? By this I mean either the number of larvae or the cycle time could scale (possibly with a tier 2 and 3 tech). This would reduce the presure of the 1 hatch queen builds but leave late game play relatively unaffected (presumably if this is a case of something being overlooked, mid to late game has already been balanced)
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The 1-Hatch Queen build sounds very strong!
I want to play too 
really nice writeup.. thx Hotbid!
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I sure hope they release a balanced game after all this time that's supposed to be for playtesting and, well, balancing the thing.
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so long..but stunningly good read, gj! looking forward to play SC2
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Remove these gimmicky stupid increased production capabilities. If your saying it's overpowered, i would agree. Even then, whats the point of having them? its pointless. I would rather keep the "expand" and defend expansion, kill expansion that bw had, starcraft 2 seems like a battle to take out your opponents army till you can move into his main, not an expansion war, which is more strategic.
Expanding came with risks, for example a terran double expanding with 1 fac (Lol flash anyone?) versus a protoss who goes like 2base arbiters or carriers, or a PvZ where the protoss goes unity heavy instead of getting a quick third. This made the game more complex and forced the player to compromise and take risks. With these gimmicky ways to get more minerals, its pointless, its like giving everyone a min only in their main, what's the point?
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Seems so dumb even if they slightly nerf it.. who wants to see every game open 1 hatch queen and watch T/P turtle tech or rush? Part of why SC is so interesting is because it encourages NOT one basing in almost every match up but at the same time, 1 base play is also viable.
If SC2 ends up being an "ok game" that just plays out like so many other RTS's I'm gonna be so bummed .
Hopefully they are really listening to us here and understand why SC1 was so good.
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imo the point of this article was to coin the phrase "larvae injection" so that one day when sc2 is the biggest competetive e-sport in the world hot_bid can look back and say "yeah I was first.." thus gaining massive e-peen.
Seriously though this doesn't sound too good. If they miss something like this who knows what else they're missing.. On the other hand rts' just aren't balanced before a few months of beta testing.
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This feels like it will be taken care of in beta.
A simple solution, rather than moving around units to different tiers, would be simply to INCREASE the cooldown from 25 seconds to something higher that seems more reasonable vs P and T openings. Really not THAT worried about this as the real balance-phase hasn't even begun yet.
Like another person in this thread said, it feels like it should be an enhancement to the macro, not SUPERIOR to a normal hatch but an improvement to it.
It IS good that it's get brought up like this though, hopefully it gets through to some Blizzard devs.
^^
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so your opinion is that larva injection ability has to be stressed and tested to make it weaker?
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I'm all for the Zerg being able to take over the map and make thousands of units... just balance the units. Having a dozen marines cost as much and be about as good as 50 zerglings would be sweet. Let the Zerg be The Swarm, just allow T and P to handle them better.
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EPT
