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On February 13 2008 15:45 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote:Show nested quote +On February 13 2008 15:42 Tracil wrote:
Look, if you're telling the truth, I think that's still dangerous.
1) If you're not mafia, then you lead both citizens to accuse you, and it becomes possible for the actual mafia to use you as a scapegoat. You basically serve yourself up on a platter.
2) This actually sets a bad precedent, where this excuse becomes somewhat legitimate. For instance, if a mafia slips up, he can then argue that he likewise took a rash action to see 'who opposed and who didn't oppose me'.
Also, you may have slipped up by saying 'if only the mafia know i'm in the mafia'. You meant 'not' in the mafia. These little tells may seem inconsequential. However, as I've said before, it's far more likely an actual mafioso makes a 'small' mistake like that than a townie.
So. Yeah. I can understand, however, that a townie may think this is a strong opening strategy, and this has actually gone some way in lessening my suspicion. I wouldn't accept this out of someone who had claimed to play mafia in the past, for instance. i didn't slip up, my post is unedited and reads 'only the mafia know i'm not in the mafia' 'not in the mafia'
On February 13 2008 15:30 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote:
let me put it this way:
if only the mafia know i'm in the mafia, then by an erratic action we see who opposes me heavily
some mafia members will oppose me as a front, knowing i'm not in the mafia. other citizens will accuse me, without being in the mafia themselves.
this is the fastest and most efficient way to guage where peoples' thoughts are. everything is evidence and as it accumulates it becomes more useful
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A question to the experienced mafia players:
How often does this game degenerate to McCarthyism? For those of you who don't know what McCarthyism is, senator McCarthy was a US senator in the 50's who went around accusing people of being communists to discredit them, and gain personal influence.
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Valhalla18444 Posts
On February 13 2008 15:47 goldenkrnboi wrote:Show nested quote +On February 13 2008 15:45 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote:On February 13 2008 15:42 Tracil wrote:
Look, if you're telling the truth, I think that's still dangerous.
1) If you're not mafia, then you lead both citizens to accuse you, and it becomes possible for the actual mafia to use you as a scapegoat. You basically serve yourself up on a platter.
2) This actually sets a bad precedent, where this excuse becomes somewhat legitimate. For instance, if a mafia slips up, he can then argue that he likewise took a rash action to see 'who opposed and who didn't oppose me'.
Also, you may have slipped up by saying 'if only the mafia know i'm in the mafia'. You meant 'not' in the mafia. These little tells may seem inconsequential. However, as I've said before, it's far more likely an actual mafioso makes a 'small' mistake like that than a townie.
So. Yeah. I can understand, however, that a townie may think this is a strong opening strategy, and this has actually gone some way in lessening my suspicion. I wouldn't accept this out of someone who had claimed to play mafia in the past, for instance. i didn't slip up, my post is unedited and reads 'only the mafia know i'm not in the mafia' 'not in the mafia' Show nested quote +On February 13 2008 15:30 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote:
let me put it this way:
if only the mafia know i'm in the mafia, then by an erratic action we see who opposes me heavily
some mafia members will oppose me as a front, knowing i'm not in the mafia. other citizens will accuse me, without being in the mafia themselves.
this is the fastest and most efficient way to guage where peoples' thoughts are. everything is evidence and as it accumulates it becomes more useful
what's wrong with that?
the mafia know who each other are, so only they know for sure that i'm not in the mafia
this instantly casts doubt on anyone who opposes me, which increases my own safety
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Valhalla18444 Posts
oh i see i made a typo
yeah im not in the mafia and the reasoning for killing whatshisface is sufficiently explained
i have methods and madness, if no one can figure out which is which, i'm a lot more powerful
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To break down your argument:
1) I'm not a Mafioso because I say I'm not
2) The Mafia would come out in force and denounce you if you weren't mafio
3) Therefore everybody who opposes you is a Mafia.
The problem is all we're hanging on is your word that you're not a Mafia to give you power to squelch anybody who speaks against you?
And you haven't given a reason about why you killed him. A shock test is hardly a reasonable reason to kill somebody, and the fact that he was your detractor just makes you look even slimier.
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Valhalla18444 Posts
have you even considered what will happen if i die?
if you kill me and i'm mafia, you become a target and will surely fall
if you kill me and i'm not mafia, you are a massive idiot and lose not only your credibility but an exceedingly cunning ally
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On February 13 2008 15:57 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote:
have you even considered what will happen if i die?
if you kill me and i'm mafia, you become a target and will surely fall
if you kill me and i'm not mafia, you are a massive idiot and lose not only your credibility but an exceedingly cunning ally
That's been my argument for awhile, but it hasn't worked too well so far.
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Valhalla18444 Posts
On February 13 2008 15:55 GeneralStan wrote:
To break down your argument:
1) I'm not a Mafioso because I say I'm not
2) The Mafia would come out in force and denounce you if you weren't mafio
3) Therefore everybody who opposes you is a Mafia.
The problem is all we're hanging on is your word that you're not a Mafia to give you power to squelch anybody who speaks against you?
And you haven't given a reason about why you killed him. A shock test is hardly a reasonable reason to kill somebody, and the fact that he was your detractor just makes you look even slimier.
numbers 2 and 3 are incorrect.
some of the people who denounce me are mafia. focusing on them first gives me a smaller sample size to work with for my first cleanups, which increases my chance of success.
not everyone who opposes me is mafia, but it is a guarantee that some of the people opposing me are.
instead of working with 70+ people, i'm now working with a much smaller group, and it will be much easier to weed out the gangsters from that group.
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Valhalla18444 Posts
regardless of whether i mean to eliminate the townies or the mafia from that sample, focusing on this one issue is a waste of your time.
the townies still have no idea whether or not i'm in the mafia, but the mafia know for sure. Killing me is a no-win situation if you don't know for sure whether or not i'm a mobster. however, killing other mob members benefits you no matter what
tell me which one sounds like a better use of our time
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Valhalla18444 Posts
see what i did there with the double use of the phrase 'for sure'?
how can you kill me when its clear that you have no solid idea whether or not i'm in the mafia? the only way you could possibly know for sure is if you're in the mafia yourself, and if i die and am innocent, you're outed
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Also as I (think) have already said since FS already used up his Instakill, even if he's mafia it's doubtful that he'll actually be able to kill any more townies if we make sure to be smart about our votes. I'm not trying to defend him, but I agree that we should worry more about just trying to find any mafiosos instead of obsessing over whether or not FS is mafia.
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I don't know for certain. All I know is that you said a lot of suspicious things before you were elected, you killed a vocal opponent of yours, and are now taking a 180 turn from your wild unrestrained character into reasonably explaining why everybody who opposes you should die.
That's a lot things I don't really like.
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the townies still have no idea whether or not i'm in the mafia, but the mafia know for sure. Killing me is a no-win situation if you don't know for sure whether or not i'm a mobster. however, killing other mob members benefits you no matter what
What?
We don't know for sure whether or not you're a mobster. However, that does not make killing you a no-win situation, because you may still be one. And, as usual, this is a position that can be attributed to any lynch ever pretty much (we're not SURE he's mafia. We're virtually never going to be 100% sure.)
<->
A lot of people, particularly the accused, say "But if you kill me and I'm NOT mafia, then you look like a moron. I would put it to you that it's the accused who have done stupid things that make them look like mafia. In part, they are responsible for their own image.
Do not let people saying 'but if you lynch me, you might die/look like an idiot/the sky might fall on you' and arguments such as those dissuade you. These are not rebuttals, but appeals to pride and fear.
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On February 13 2008 16:20 Tracil wrote:Show nested quote +
the townies still have no idea whether or not i'm in the mafia, but the mafia know for sure. Killing me is a no-win situation if you don't know for sure whether or not i'm a mobster. however, killing other mob members benefits you no matter what
What? We don't know for sure whether or not you're a mobster. However, that does not make killing you a no-win situation, because you may still be one. And, as usual, this is a position that can be attributed to any lynch ever pretty much (we're not SURE he's mafia. We're virtually never going to be 100% sure.) <-> A lot of people, particularly the accused, say "But if you kill me and I'm NOT mafia, then you look like a moron. I would put it to you that it's the accused who have done stupid things that make them look like mafia. In part, they are responsible for their own image. Do not let people saying 'but if you lynch me, you might die/look like an idiot/the sky might fall on you' and arguments such as those dissuade you. These are not rebuttals, but appeals to pride and fear.
If you kill me and I'm NOT mafia, you are a moron. In part, I am responsible for my own image, but I doubt I'd have much better results if I played it any differently. Once Shallow posted the fake PM, I was everyone's #1 target, regardless of my response.
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Valhalla18444 Posts
On February 13 2008 16:20 Tracil wrote:Show nested quote +
the townies still have no idea whether or not i'm in the mafia, but the mafia know for sure. Killing me is a no-win situation if you don't know for sure whether or not i'm a mobster. however, killing other mob members benefits you no matter what
What? We don't know for sure whether or not you're a mobster. However, that does not make killing you a no-win situation, because you may still be one. And, as usual, this is a position that can be attributed to any lynch ever pretty much (we're not SURE he's mafia. We're virtually never going to be 100% sure.) <-> A lot of people, particularly the accused, say "But if you kill me and I'm NOT mafia, then you look like a moron. I would put it to you that it's the accused who have done stupid things that make them look like mafia. In part, they are responsible for their own image. Do not let people saying 'but if you lynch me, you might die/look like an idiot/the sky might fall on you' and arguments such as those dissuade you. These are not rebuttals, but appeals to pride and fear.
you don't understand - if you kill me, there is no mayor, and that means the extra voting power is gone
on top of that, there aren't many with the influence and guile that i possess. losing me as your mayor would hurt your cause immensely. you can't kill me on a loose suspicion.
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Not entirely true, Shallows picture depicted you as being careless and being a bit foolish. So by trying to act like an oaf after Shallows post, many people probably began to suspect that there's a good chance that you really did send the PM. I actually do believe that people would've jumped on the bandwagon and accused you anyways, but if you would've tried to be more casual you might've had a better chance of getting away.
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That last post was to Dragoon obviously.
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On February 13 2008 16:28 Falcynn wrote:
Not entirely true, Shallows picture depicted you as being careless and being a bit foolish. So by trying to act like an oaf after Shallows post, many people probably began to suspect that there's a good chance that you really did send the PM. I actually do believe that people would've jumped on the bandwagon and accused you anyways, but if you would've tried to be more casual you might've had a better chance of getting away.
Have we all forgotten the PM Shallow posted? Careless and a bit foolish is a HUGE understatement. I would have to be borderline retarded to actually do that, unless I wanted to purposely put myself in as ditch.
BTW, I did not want to purposely put myself in a ditch.
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ok, it was a drastic understatement, but my point is still valid.
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Good name Liquidia. Rest Easy
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EPT
