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On July 03 2019 21:51 Jockmcplop wrote:Show nested quote +On July 03 2019 21:47 Eywa- wrote:On July 03 2019 21:46 Jockmcplop wrote:On July 03 2019 21:44 Eywa- wrote:On July 03 2019 21:40 Jockmcplop wrote:On July 03 2019 21:37 Pandain wrote:
At least HF thinks both are scum, so he has some leeway. You do not. Like I said, if they are both scum this logic proves even more that ES wouldn't take this action. Its literally a loss for mafia as soon as she flips. This is incorrect, but probably the perception. Honestly, both are ok plays as either alignment. You can gambit on yourself or you can counter wagon. It has nothing to do with alignment, it's just about playstyle. We shouldn't all lose our minds because someone chose gambit on themselves... How is this incorrect???? If ES fails to switch to grack, then flips red, we immediately kill grack because basic logic says so. If they are both mafia, mafia loses. I can't see how on earth you can possibly think otherwise. It would be incorrect to do so. That's not an associative, what happened before is the associative. All I'm saying is that her optimal play as mafia is always the same as her optimal play for town. She can counter wagon or she can gambit, both are valid plays and are NOT associative. Oh we're back on the thing where if someone's under pressure, nothing they do matters. I'm not banging my head on that brick wall, thanks. Everyone else will be able to see that this is obvious - you keep being you eywa.
Eh...
What?
Sigh....
I'm just saying you have option A and option B and neither is "correct". If you select option A as town, you must select it as scum.
Claiming "oh, this player chose to gambit rather than counter wagon" means nothing.
You might as well base your read on the time ES went to sleep.
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On July 03 2019 21:53 Eywa- wrote:Show nested quote +On July 03 2019 21:51 Jockmcplop wrote:On July 03 2019 21:47 Eywa- wrote:On July 03 2019 21:46 Jockmcplop wrote:On July 03 2019 21:44 Eywa- wrote:On July 03 2019 21:40 Jockmcplop wrote:On July 03 2019 21:37 Pandain wrote:
At least HF thinks both are scum, so he has some leeway. You do not. Like I said, if they are both scum this logic proves even more that ES wouldn't take this action. Its literally a loss for mafia as soon as she flips. This is incorrect, but probably the perception. Honestly, both are ok plays as either alignment. You can gambit on yourself or you can counter wagon. It has nothing to do with alignment, it's just about playstyle. We shouldn't all lose our minds because someone chose gambit on themselves... How is this incorrect???? If ES fails to switch to grack, then flips red, we immediately kill grack because basic logic says so. If they are both mafia, mafia loses. I can't see how on earth you can possibly think otherwise. It would be incorrect to do so. That's not an associative, what happened before is the associative. All I'm saying is that her optimal play as mafia is always the same as her optimal play for town. She can counter wagon or she can gambit, both are valid plays and are NOT associative. Oh we're back on the thing where if someone's under pressure, nothing they do matters. I'm not banging my head on that brick wall, thanks. Everyone else will be able to see that this is obvious - you keep being you eywa. Eh... What? Sigh.... I'm just saying you have option A and option B and neither is "correct". If you select option A as town, you must select it as scum. Claiming "oh, this player chose to gambit rather than counter wagon" means nothing. You might as well base your read on the time ES went to sleep.
This applies regardless of either player's alignment.
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On July 03 2019 21:56 Pandain wrote:
I don't think your idea that "The optimal town play is the optimal scum play" is true. Or even close to true.
For instance, ES will almost certainly get lynched if she tries to continue pushing for you. As town, it makes sense if she truly believes you are scum. As scum, it doesn't make sense, becuase she will almost certainly get lynched.
Let me give you a counter example.
Let's say we are playing a massive game, with 20 players and 5 scum. If one scum member buses and lynches all the 4 other scum, that's optimal town play. Is that optimal scum play? Of course not.
No it doesn't.
Oh my god.
As town the optimal play is to not get lynched. If all town are slippery enough to not get lynched, then who wins? Town. Without fail.
Not getting lynched is hands down the most valuable skill in Mafia as either alignment. That is a fact.
Saying "oh they don't mind the consequences of" NOOOOOOO.
That is NAI and it's bad town play if that's the case.
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On July 03 2019 21:57 Pandain wrote:
Your philosophy is wrong
This is the thinking that causes most sites to have terrible town winrates to be honest (disclaimer: I don't know what the winrates is here)
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I'm sorry, I'm 100% town, the cases where self lynch is a good play are minimal to none. I would have to be sure of my contribution AND to have maybe 85%+ hit rate on my confident reads in-order to make a sacrifice play even remotely close to being optimal.
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"oh, but lynch me then lynch my scum read"...
BUT YOUR REAS ACCURACY IS 50% WHY ON EARTH WOULD I DO THAT?
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On July 03 2019 22:02 Pandain wrote:
I don't agree with you at all but you explained yourself and I think you're town.
Disagreement and proof that it works in the same post 
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On July 03 2019 22:09 Pandain wrote:
I have extremely strong townreads on Jock, ES, Rayn, and Eywa.
Meaning I think the last two scum are between Conv, Trfell, HF, and Grack.
I actually have a very slight town read on HF too.
That's quite the turnaround
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On July 04 2019 00:48 Jockmcplop wrote:
Casually dismissive probably won't work in this case hf I'm too persistent.
It took you quite a while to get here. Care to comment?
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On July 04 2019 00:51 Jockmcplop wrote:Show nested quote +On July 04 2019 00:50 Eywa- wrote:On July 04 2019 00:48 Jockmcplop wrote:
Casually dismissive probably won't work in this case hf I'm too persistent. It took you quite a while to get here. Care to comment? I have literally no idea what you're trying to say.
I'm just saying you were far more enlightened last game, this game it's taken you a while to come to this point.
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Pro tip guys: Don't white knight people as town
1) It makes the game impossible to read
2) Scum can just cruise by once they get town read
3) Your reads just aren't good enough
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On July 04 2019 05:08 Eywa- wrote:
Pro tip guys: Don't white knight people as town
1) It makes the game impossible to read
2) Scum can just cruise by once they get town read
3) Your reads just aren't good enough
I'm not trying to be overly negative, I think very few people fit into the category where this becomes an acceptable play... But it clearly didn't work here.
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On July 04 2019 05:11 Eversince wrote:
Is that at me Eywa?
No, you should have been left to defend yourself... You played right. Doesn't mean you're town.
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I'm more talking about Jock & Pandain jumping in to defend you. Now, especially if you are actually town, our situation is MUCH worse than before. And I don't believe you are town (which is part of the predicament we find ourselves in when you are helped out of a situation by other people rather than by your own argument.
If you're mafia, well, this is a minor set back.
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On July 04 2019 05:18 Eversince wrote:Show nested quote +On July 04 2019 05:15 Eywa- wrote:
I'm more talking about Jock & Pandain jumping in to defend you. Now, especially if you are actually town, our situation is MUCH worse than before. And I don't believe you are town (which is part of the predicament we find ourselves in when you are helped out of a situation by other people rather than by your own argument.
If you're mafia, well, this is a minor set back. How is any of this really? m!Jock makes no sense defending m!ES. m!Pandain makes no sense. Either one couldn't move the vote anyway. If anything it means Truffles/ES team.
There's usually a lot of benefit in mafia white knighting... So... I guess refer to the exhibit where I explained that it's bad for town to do it.
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On July 04 2019 05:24 Eversince wrote:
I don't care about any of that Eywa, I care about you not explaining you reads.
Everyone who voted with you thinks I'm town. Quizzing me with that knowledge is not considered scum hunting. I'm probably the one town lock in the game. You should be scum hunting elsewhere.
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On July 04 2019 05:26 Pandain wrote:
What does white knighting even me.
If I think someone is town, I'm going to defend them.
Saying otherwise is stupid.
Accuracy is important as well... But more so than that, if you don't defend people who you think are town (which is white knighting), it leaves less space for scum to help each other and take over the game.
It's an objectively bad play for town, due to the implications it has on scum team. If you never do it as town, scum team are more isolated from their partners.
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EPT
