EPTLike I don't think there's any real shot for scum to win the setup.
[T] MS Paint-Off Mafia - Page 16
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geript
10024 Posts
Like I don't think there's any real shot for scum to win the setup. | ||
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geript
10024 Posts
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geript
10024 Posts
On August 22 2017 19:00 Koshi wrote: Playing with confirmed townies is so easy. I was most of the time +30 pages behind the thread but due to be able to trust Vivax and Superbia 100% it wasn't a problem. I also believe this game was pretty town favored but still not as townfavored as the previous game with Damdred and geript being in the game innocent childs. And then you don't write entire essays on why is was unbalanced. Be consequent. Like... This was nothing compared to that. But this game was something new and I prefer this over Cell mafia anyday. It for sure has some balance issues but the idea was pretty fun and it was incredible to be able to be a judge. Great experience!!! I will for sure join another one of these and theorycraft about the balance then. I think the concept is great, and you can change a lot, or a little bit and both would work. I'll try to write something down to recap the judges mindset next. I thin a mason pair in a mini is far, far more balanced than this setup. 9/10ths of the time in this setup mafia has to leave the towniest guy alive all game while he gets useful roles. If scum Town confirm 1 person, the game becomes almost impossible with this person. The setup completely takes away any strength mafia has to control a game. In a normal setup, I can bus Rayn D1 with his play and go to town using my influence to protect the third mafia player. The mason setup looked OP, but the mafia team was basically MIA and let Town do its thing. | ||
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geript
10024 Posts
On August 22 2017 19:01 Holyflare wrote: Mafia should start with a rb. Shouldn't be a vig shot. Don't like the judge mechanic one bit. The judges are problematic; I don't think there's any way to balance it. Town getting a vig on top... broken. Mafia not having any way to kill Town and no real benefit for being "super Town" and actually being at an even larger detriment. It's a great idea and worth trying out, but just way too op. | ||
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geript
10024 Posts
On August 22 2017 19:13 Rels wrote: Disagree. If you just shoot HF N1 you have a real "shot" at winning IMO. You become thread leader and do whatever you want. I don't think there's any way that forcing scum to be thread leader is balanced. Like any non-HF shot implicates people who are towny and experienced. Any HF shot risks mod-confirming HF. That's just lose-lose. In a normal game, Town doesn't even get to know if a shot was prevented (if medic) and a vet claim can be challenged (or shot again). | ||
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geript
10024 Posts
On August 22 2017 19:14 Koshi wrote: haha. Please geript. You can have your opinion but it is wrong. If we ever meet up we can talk about this for 4 hours. There is no way I am wrong about this. 14 players. 2 confirmed town. 1 parity cop. So 4 misslynches in a pool of 11 before you lose. It's like judges that can actually interact with the thread and you are not limited by any shenanigans, making EoD way harder for scum. And we as judges played way way way way better than you guys did in that previous game btw. And we as mafia did a pretty decent job as well. I still don't understand the modconfirmed shit with rayn but HF dropped the ball so fucking hard on the D1 lynch. I forgot about parity Cop which was stupidly OP with masons. Masons in a mini is Town favored, but not >65% imo (which is pretty Town favored). Even with the parity Cop, I think it's like 75-80% Town favored. Don't get me wrong, the last game was Town favored, but I don't think it's as much as this setup is. | ||
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geript
10024 Posts
On August 22 2017 19:23 Koshi wrote: Well in a normal open game HF would be only confirmed to the doc. And if you want to medic dodge you still have to shoot very much down the line like you did here. Right, but in a normal the medic could be a paranoid townie who won't heal HF. Or HF will be medic. Or there won't be a medic. Like 50% of the time in this game the town winner is choosing vest. That's a far, far higher percentage than Town leader gets healed in a normal. Even if HF gets healed, who cares... no big deal. We can just shoot him again. That's the thing; here, D2 we have the same situation as D1. This setup forces mafia to be in complete control of the thread and votes, and have the judges never be able to pick up on it, and be more townie than all the Town all while not giving themselves away via simple vote analysis. Like imagine if we didn't make sure I won D3, then we also have to shoot second best to not confirm mafia (which makes it harder for me to win) or we have to put up with if X player will medic or cop check. Who do they medic. Who do they cop check. Every time mafia wins power up, they're put in a worse position than they were before. Every time they lose a power up, they're in a worse position than before. If town isn't terrible, then they can just setup two 1:1 trades. | ||
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geript
10024 Posts
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geript
10024 Posts
On August 22 2017 19:37 Holyflare wrote: The main thing I hate about this game is not being able to lynch who you want to lynch. Yah. I think it actually made it harder for scum because there are better mislymches to push; or consolidations that are better than others. Like even if D3 doesn't go south, then I still have to deal with a bunch of people who are already for lynching me just because I've been pushing them as scum. | ||
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geript
10024 Posts
On August 22 2017 19:40 Artanis[Xp] wrote: We have a bunch of ideas to make the game more balanced, like the judges only picking for half the votes and being allowed to talk in the thread during the night phases and stuff like that, but we'd like to see if there's a point to discussing them first  Btw, this is by far one of the most interesting setup ideas I've seen. It just feels like a bad nomination mafia though. | ||
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geript
10024 Posts
On August 22 2017 19:43 Holyflare wrote: The elongated day 1 was annoying. Remove that and have a normal day 1 and mafia don't need to start with a rb cos they can shoot whoever they want. I thought about that, but it's tricky. In a normal, you usually get 2.5 power role uses or more. I'm not sure that balances it enough and it makes it far more swingy (cop check vs vest) TBH, I think it's more interesting if you let mafia store KP. So you could no shoot for 2 nights then have 3 KP on N3. The bonus for mafia winning the power up needs to be more. | ||
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geript
10024 Posts
On August 22 2017 22:40 rsoultin wrote: yeeeeaahhh...we made a mistake. namely, we were dealing with a separate issue when hf asked about rb notification on the shot, and did not have the context for hf's question. the concession felt highly emotional to me on the back of that announcement in-thread i by no means think that there was any form of inevitability to the scum loss this game. reads change. who assumes that the lynch pool was all mafia anyway? one more mislynch and judges are out and town loses lynching tumble because only the judges had a good read on him. but i understand the reaction to the rb notification *in b4 geript/rayn come back with how imbalanced the game was lol >> i agree we could have balanced it better but no, i don't think the setup was the reason for your loss, or the reason for the bad position some of you were in onegu/eversince did nothing for their slot rayn got caught out early. not setup related at all both rayn and geript showed major face on d2...ritoky's analysis was sexy that's gameplay, not setup. the setup probably didn't help...but i wouldn't blame it entirely on that No it wasn't emotional about the ruling per se. Look at it from our perspective. 1. We're guaranteed to lose 1 mafia today. 2. HF is 100% shooting mafia tonight--which at best uses up the RB and confirms me as scum. for me getting lynched. 3. How does Rayn/Disinfo not get lynched in like 3 straight lynches. Like, I've done a pretty okish job connecting to Hopeless and distancing from Disinfo; but between Ever's play and voting (plus general thread lean), Disinfo not getting lynched/cop checked/PoE'd from cop checks, etc. is almost impossible. It's just a time saving move. | ||
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geript
10024 Posts
On August 22 2017 22:47 Koshi wrote: Yeah I think mafia should maybe have played it through. If they push 1 ml after this they get a free ml on TW. I think either Hopeless or Jealous would have entered the pool after this. Especially with so many townies hard scumreading each other. No. I'm 100% confirmed scum after N3 after the Vig Shot ruling. Basically Disinfo has to dodge a bunch of powerups and lynches (which he will 100% be in). TW is basically confirmed town after I flip. | ||
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geript
10024 Posts
On August 23 2017 03:22 Hopeless1der wrote: You guys could have pretty easily pushed disinfo/ever/1gu's slot imo. At a minimum one more day of making us sad. I don't think it's that easy. From my viewpoint, Rayn was going to get lynched at some point (because he's obviously not town), Onegu/Ever/Disinfo is going to get lynched for inactivity/being scum/whatever. But equally, I even if I bus both odds of winning every power-up to explain me being alive are super low; plus I still have to lynch HF (highly unlikely), or beat him out for it so he dies (much harder without supporting votes) which also points to me being scum. The only way mafia wins the current setup I think is if they only lose 1 mafia at most and basically just steam roll town. Like the longer I "win" the more actual town (who I've had little ability to lynch) are left in the game who just want to vote me regardless. Like it's not an easy situation. | ||
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geript
10024 Posts
On August 23 2017 03:31 rsoultin wrote: I'm not arguing that you thought you didn't have a chance. Clearly you thought that. But 1) HF didn't have a gun (yes, he might have received one, but still) 2) if you think you're conf scum, get yourself lynched, and 3) there's nothing confirming Tumble anything. Town is notorious for plowing through, and scum equally notorious for thinking town will be right more than they are because from your perspective everything appears obvious. Not saying it would be easy. Inevitable, though? No. Not that. Can't blame you for either not seeing that, or not wanting to try, though. HF is 100% getting the gun. At worst, ritoky gets the gun. Even if you say Tumble isn't confirmed by my filter (I'm known for being very willing to bus), there's no scenario where mafia is coming out of D3 with more than 1 member. After a scum lynch, it's 100% correct to shoot. I get confirmed one way or another (which is huge), and it clears up the whole mess. Like, Town may plow through, but it's really hard to plow through when HF is going to write 4 walls of text on what the exact scum team is and why. Especially when he has an alive green check (who will help push it), Hopeless who will reconsider pretty heavily after either Rayn or I die, and a vig shot to mess around with. If Rayn doens't push obvious "unRayn" things all game, it's maybe possible. But past that, idk. | ||
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geript
10024 Posts
On August 23 2017 04:23 Rels wrote: so bad. I was never more than a coinflip %age wise. Still the best lynch that day. Jealous was pretty townie. So was ritoky. | ||
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