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NeverUnlucky
Canada1622 Posts
On November 04 2016 01:55 mahrgell wrote: Back again now. I at first just wanted to answer skynx post about me. You want me to answer the rest of skynx post? or anything else? I would like you to read my answers to Calix and re-adjust your read if applicable. ^^ | ||
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darthfoley
United States8001 Posts
On November 03 2016 22:54 Tictock wrote: Eh, I like this thinking but I think your first point is moot since Exo stated several times that he doesn't think his claim is bad for town. I'm actually seeing more of a disconnect between how much he talked about why he claimed and yet never realized why that claim might be bad. I suppose since this is a newbie game I should elaborate on why a VT claim is bad for town. Basically it makes mafia's side goal of killing off blue roles that much easier. If you are VT and claim it is essentially helping mafia blue hunt by narrowing the pool of people they want to look into. Why do you "like this thinking" if you admit that his first point is null and you don't respond to the second point? If it's all null or NAI, what is there to like? TT's discussion of Rels seems super off to me. On November 03 2016 23:59 Tictock wrote: Honestly I don't really recall it was a bit too long ago, I'll go skim to refresh my memory though. Ah, yea he seemed like obv town that game due to how gung-ho he was right off the bat and his interactions with Lunatic (and lunatic flipping scum) made it super obv he was town. I don't feel like comparing the games is a good way to read Rels though, I've seen him be lackluster as town when he doesn't have much time and super active and involved as scum when he does. Giving it more thought I might actually give Rels a slight townlean because as scum I think he'd be more worried about how he presents his reads, here it is more like he's just sharing what he's got so far. Ticktock says two lines before that you shouldn't compare games with Rels, because of his variability, then gives him a slight townlean based off of what can only be characterized as meta analysis off of previous games. Why would you think his scum play is likely to play out one way or another when you've just admitted that he has various playstyles? On November 03 2016 03:08 Calix wrote: So if you ARE mainly communicating in gifs then why claim a role first thing before doing that? Seems illogical for town to do. Not trying to rehash everything, but IMO saying it's illogical for town to do something, worded in that way, implies a mafia lean to some extent. TT, can you explain, how it shows "deeper thinking" and why that deeper thinking indicates Calix to be town? Also don't like his last defense against Skynx + Show Spoiler + On November 04 2016 01:18 Tictock wrote: And you called my post on Exo the worst case ever. This is pretty out of context. First Calix saying she wasn't scumreading him has nothing to do with his defense since Calix said that much later (I also have no issues with her pointing out something she doesn't like, calling it illogical or w/e, and then not scumreading the person for it. I actually shows deeper thinking imo). Second, of course anyone is going to defend themselves, it's about how they do it. Exo took 2 questions from Calix as some kind of immense pressure to make him post gifs (what?) and called her scum for it. That's overblown no matter how you look at it. I stand by my assessment. Him changing his stance from "I'm gunna post gifs and have fun" to "I'm gunna claim VT and get all serious about shit" is far more likely to come from someone who rolled scum and doesn't want to draw attention for posting mostly gifs. You clearly don't know what OMGUS is. You could be, but similarly to my thinking on Exo your early play was openly drawing attn to yourself which is not usually what scum want to do. I alluded to that somewhere. How does any of that make me scum? And long silence? How are you going to accuse me of taking a long silence when you've spent the whole first half of the phase just complaining about reading and only now getting around to posting substance... Your other post was decent, but you can stay floating in null/scum territory for this. The green implies that TT should be townreading Skynx, and maybe even ExO for doing things "mafia normally wouldn't do" (i.e. drawing attention to themselves early), yet he flips in the next paragraph to saying his opening was scummy for being silent? You can't have it both ways. I'm putting my vote on ##Ticktock | ||
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Calix
3379 Posts
On November 03 2016 23:59 Tictock wrote: Honestly I don't really recall it was a bit too long ago, I'll go skim to refresh my memory though. Ah, yea he seemed like obv town that game due to how gung-ho he was right off the bat and his interactions with Lunatic (and lunatic flipping scum) made it super obv he was town. I don't feel like comparing the games is a good way to read Rels though, I've seen him be lackluster as town when he doesn't have much time and super active and involved as scum when he does. Giving it more thought I might actually give Rels a slight townlean because as scum I think he'd be more worried about how he presents his reads, here it is more like he's just sharing what he's got so far. I've reread it myself. He specifically said in that Newbie game that he was going to be try-hard so I'm concluding that it's an inaccurate way of reading Rels this game. (as he said that he has RL commitments this round) Wouldn't go as far as to town-lean him for it but let's see how Rels reacts. On November 04 2016 00:14 Skynx wrote: I'm here, still reading all the shitty posts unfortunately and that takes time. Also, congratz for exposing yourself for going after a low-hanging fruit. This looks scummy on the surface, but this is actually something that Skynx has said as town before. I was in a TPR chat with him in my first game and he explained that he "deliberately plays scummy to bait the mafia" or something like that. I don't think that this defense is AI for Skynx as a consequence. Haven't properly reviewed Skynx' posts yet, but I'm all for him contributing so I'm not going to complain there. | ||
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mahrgell
Germany3941 Posts
On November 04 2016 01:57 NeverUnlucky wrote: I would like you to read my answers to Calix and re-adjust your read if applicable. ^^ Haha, let's see if we can readjust this  Most of what you posted towards Calix actually does not really concern me. I don't share too many points with Calix on you, and your explanations on why you now consider Calix to be scummy again do not weaken my own ideas. But there was one part which in a way also adressed my points. On November 04 2016 00:45 NeverUnlucky wrote: Breaking my ‘promise’ to keep discussion civil : I have never made such a promise. It was the way I approached the game at first, trying to favor discussion by being civil. This is due to feedback I’ve received last game, and keeping a positive thread atmosphere being one of the three town leader ‘pillars’. I also do not see why you are scum-reading me for this. I had a pro-town intention at the start of the game. There is even a progression in my posts showing how I went from ‘‘let’s be nice’’ to toxic. It’s not an inconsistency if there is clear progression of my mood/tone. Flip-flopping my read on you : Fair enough, though I’m kind of always doing that, so I don’t really think it’s AI. Let's say it like this: Your defense reads as "because I'm emotional". This is, at least in the case of this game and how it developed, not a trait helpful to town, but I also said, that sometimes things looking like antitown play can be explained by character. I consider you good enough to be aware of your image, especially towards me, as you know exactly what I know about you regarding meta. So I consider it to be a clever mafia play, or well.. you just cant escape yourself as townie. Call it Null! Can be both. (in before someone calls me scum for presenting both my interpretations again) About the Calix vs NU, I at this point think you both are again clouded in emotion. That's why I asked you multiple times for reads outside of Calix, as I consider those way more useful to town, and those would also help me to judge you better. Your NonCalix conversation also drags in others, while at this point nobody else wants to take part in your private grudge duel. So it also gives more to read from other people. This is something you very lately improved on. This is actually tempting me to move you back to Null. For me you are certainly not the guaranteed town you are claiming yourself to be, but the more reasonable NU is also certainly worth keeping around. So for me my topscum are now Foremen (since my vote on him I haven't seen any post by him making me change my mind the slightest...) and Exo (explained earlier in my post with the metastuff). At this point I would like to reevaluate Skynx and Foley, but not sure I can get it before family time :/ | ||
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Calix
3379 Posts
Take the last part. I didn't read TT's post as saying "Skynx is scummy because of his opening being silent" or whatever but DF did. I'm going to wait for TT to respond before I elaborate because I don't want to give him ideas for a defense but that's my two pence on it. | ||
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mahrgell
Germany3941 Posts
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darthfoley
United States8001 Posts
On November 04 2016 01:53 NeverUnlucky wrote: Perhaps you have reads you would like to share? c: Sure I think Foreman is most town to me. My pyramid thing would go something like this Town Foreman NU, Calix, Skynx Rels mahrgell, ExO, TT Mafia I have Rels null because he's yet to really engage the thread besides an early read pyramid. I want to hear why he "hated" my post, among other things. Can I get Calix's and your opinion of each other? I'm pretty sure you are townreading each other, yet continue to bicker and harp on the same points. I'd also like to hear what you think of Ticktock | ||
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Calix
3379 Posts
On November 04 2016 00:37 Skynx wrote: Bad stuff: Mahg Bolded gives two opposite directions of having a lean on Exo. "Wierd and pointless" for a scum perspective for overreaction and "pressure and get the game going" for town perspective. He looks quite uncertain about both regards by his specific wording. Then this happens: Exo replies yes. Mahg says nothing. Mind you this is like the only thing going on in the thread other than Calix vs NU. Then he goes after NU, accusing him of not following up on Exo vote and posts this. Where is your follow up on Exo then? --- Calix All started with this: Bolded sentence implies a scumread, as if someone thinks a sane person would do something illogical from a town perspective that would suggest it would be a logical move from scum perspective. This gets noticed, and called out by many including Exo, NU, Foreman and magh? if i remember correctly and see how much defence there is for "I didn't scumread Exo". I'm spoilering them cuz they are just so many. + Show Spoiler + On November 03 2016 03:23 Calix wrote: I'm not pushing ExO. That's being extremely generous. I never claimed that ExO was scummy, just illogical. I didn't even call him defensive. Where did you get that from? On November 03 2016 03:35 Calix wrote: This is another example of anti-town behaviour which I do not agree with. That is NOT the same as pro-scum. Allow me to clear that one up. Some people seem to be misinterpreting my stance on ExO as "scum-lean" when it's not. On November 03 2016 03:40 Calix wrote: Correction. I am not voting for ExO and you should be suspicious of me if I was given that you (correctly) think I am not scum-reading him. See my previous response for my take on anti-town/ pro-scum. On November 03 2016 04:01 Calix wrote: With regards to Point 2, he is much tamer when he is scum. I'm not claiming that this is a 100% guaranteed tell (he is also busy and this has led to him being more subdued in the past) but it's in the back of my mind. Well in my opinion, this is how it went down: - He asks why ExO is being overly defensive. - I call ExO anti-town. - He misrepresented my positions by claiming that he agreed that I was a) scum-reading ExO and b) scum-reading ExO due to being overly defensive. - I ask him where he interpreted this from as those are not my positions. - He denies claiming this. - I tell him that he literally said in his quote "I agree with Calix" This is where the scummy part is. He immediately backtracks from that position by saying "well I don't agree" and leaves it at that. That's scummy because this progression could be NU trying to plant ideas inside of my head without actually taking responsibility for having the idea. This is a compelling explanation because the ExO/ Calix discussion was still going on at this time. Thus, it's possible that he was trying to manipulate me into agreeing that ExO's behaviour is scummy. It's also possible because I am well-known for getting myself into tunnels so I am a viable target. So yeah, discuss and all that. On November 03 2016 05:10 Calix wrote: Fact-check. I never stated a scum-read on ExO. "all pushes are very subjective" - It's Day 1. Of course they are going to be 'subjective'. In fact, almost every single push in the history of mafia is 'subjective'. That doesn't mean you just do nothing since town has to be proactive to gain information, etc etc. This is all very obvious stuff so I won't drone on. With that in mind, your approach is very hard to understand to me. On November 03 2016 05:17 Calix wrote: Stating that someone's illogical =/= scum-read, Skynx dear. As for mahrgell, if you're using mind melds to inform a read then that's fine. But from my point of view, I don't get the same impression when it's vice versa. I would have to see you post things first that I agreed with before I would make that read. It's mostly been you agreeing with me if I recall correctly so I can see where you're coming from in terms of perspective. The whole thing is just so bullshit. Ofc you imply that he is scum. How can you say that he is being anti-town but at the same time say that "sorry guys he's anti-town but I'm not scumreading him"? What was the point of that in the end? Obviously nothing, you tried something as a scum and got called out and had to backpaddle for next 5 pages try to bury it. ---- Foreman Very dodgy vote for "overanalyzing = tryhard" or w/e. Gets called out by Calix, as his vote came after NU with very little reasoning behind. First, it was not a push. You voted Calix for absolutely nothing scum indicative then call his callout discrediting you. You didn't have a push. You voted, then made up reasons for it cuz the vote was shit: The so called "tryhard and overanalyzing" transformed into "going after low hanging fruit and motivating people to behave anti-town" On November 04 2016 00:51 Skynx wrote: More badness cuz of word limit Tictock Exo is scum with Foreman Exo is scum for overreacting to a bad push > No, he had right to do that, he got voted by someone else plus the guy making the push didn't vote for him and said he is not even scumreading him. He has to retaliate here otherwise people will accuse him for not going after shitty pushes. Exo is scum for dropping the gif stuff > So you actually suggest him trying to be pro-town implies he did it because he rolled mafia is absolute OMGUS. Exo is scum for shitty push on Calix > I can sort of agree with this cuz it was badly worded. However this is quite bad as Exo's push is not indicative of Calix' alignment as regardless of the retaliation, Calix' push was bad and he stepped back from it and should be pushed for it. Nothing about Foreman this is literally the worse case ever "pushing the game forward" here means voting for wrong and weak and meaningless reasons that are not there. what does this even mean? Can you like quote some stuff indicating why them two are town? Cuz i see nothing. Middle ground on me, calls me shitter, unlikely to come from scum, in the end null. If above two are town for pushing the game forward by a clear margin for you, why am I not an as clear scum for doing the absolute opposite?? These don't make any sense. Two lists of opinions about people after a long silence and they are all meaningless/wrong. ##Vote: Tictock Town act in illogical ways all the time. Someone being illogical for town doesn't automatically make it logical for scum. It just makes it a bad idea to do as town. I don't really know how to take Skynx into account now. I'm actually inclined to think he's town because he's clearly been taking notes on the players - aka, it must have taken a lot of time and effort to filter most of the players and criticise them. "But Calix, isn't he throwing shade?" I don't think so. He's so abrasive towards everyone that it reads as townie to me. Scum don't generally make some shitty whining posts and follow that up with scathing analysis of over half the players in the game. That's a good way to piss everyone off. He makes it clear which player he scum-reads the most as well (Tictock) so he's not just throwing shit out there and seeing which one will take the best with the town. | ||
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mahrgell
Germany3941 Posts
On November 04 2016 02:16 darthfoley wrote: Why do you "like this thinking" if you admit that his first point is null and you don't respond to the second point? If it's all null or NAI, what is there to like? TT's discussion of Rels seems super off to me. I can indeed see a townish interpretation to what Rels said here and can see myself saying the same(stylewise, not in this specific case), so I disagree with you for now. But I would actually like Rels to answer this himself, to see if his motivation matches my thoughts. But regarding the VT-claim... I consider this massively overblown. Honestly, every role in the game can find a good explanation to VT-claim. At least IRL I'm quite sure I have seen games with everyone VT claiming in the first 5 minutes. I was more surprised by his explosive defense than by the original claim. I would have probably just laughed it off as something normal. | ||
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Calix
3379 Posts
Unless the scum team is something like Rels/ NU or TT/ Rels or some shit then I've definitely fucked up somewhere. | ||
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NeverUnlucky
Canada1622 Posts
On November 04 2016 02:28 darthfoley wrote: Sure I think Foreman is most town to me. My pyramid thing would go something like this Town Foreman NU, Calix, Skynx Rels mahrgell, ExO, TT Mafia I have Rels null because he's yet to really engage the thread besides an early read pyramid. I want to hear why he "hated" my post, among other things. Can I get Calix's and your opinion of each other? I'm pretty sure you are townreading each other, yet continue to bicker and harp on the same points. I'd also like to hear what you think of Ticktock I town-read Calix, but I think she still scum-reads me. Me thinks he is town mostly because I agreed fully on his ExO case (#292). He made some other good posts, I could quote them if you care. but + Show Spoiler + I find it weird that he had FM as lock-scum just 4 hours into the game. On November 03 2016 06:51 Tictock wrote: Yea I did that before posting, I'm a bit confused why you went from being uber-tunneled on Calix to suddenly considering her as town. I'll be honest, I was thinking you were lock scum up till this post but it gave me pause because I consider thinking about people from both alignments is a good town trait. However your posts seem more like you are just shifting focus away from Calix to another target but your read really hasn't changed. Right now I'd stick with my initial read that you are scum and attribute this shift to being told in your QT that you are tunneling too much. | ||
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darthfoley
United States8001 Posts
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NeverUnlucky
Canada1622 Posts
On November 04 2016 02:39 Calix wrote: I feel like I am being overly generous with my town-reads though. As it stands, I'm town-reading Skynx, mahrgell, darthfoley, ExO, Foreman to varying degrees. Unless the scum team is something like Rels/ NU or TT/ Rels or some shit then I've definitely fucked up somewhere. You have totally ignored my responses. Yes, you have fucked up. I am town, and TT is probably town too. Why are you TR Skynx other than for his comment of playing scummy? Why ExO? He said that he was pushing you to see who would join the bandwagon to push a low hanging fruit (you ??????). That's basically saying "It's a joke guise, I was trying to stir up conversation". | ||
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Calix
3379 Posts
On November 04 2016 02:28 darthfoley wrote: Sure I think Foreman is most town to me. My pyramid thing would go something like this Town Foreman NU, Calix, Skynx Rels mahrgell, ExO, TT Mafia I have Rels null because he's yet to really engage the thread besides an early read pyramid. I want to hear why he "hated" my post, among other things. Can I get Calix's and your opinion of each other? I'm pretty sure you are townreading each other, yet continue to bicker and harp on the same points. I'd also like to hear what you think of Ticktock If you got "Calix and NU town-read each other" and "bicker and harp on the same points" at this point in time from us then you haven't been reading. I think he's mafia. I'm currently ignoring him until I'm prepared to re-evaluate him since he might just be a shitter. As you may have gathered, it's difficult for either of us to form an impartial read on the other. Also he irritates me and I'd rather play the game without dealing with that. | ||
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mahrgell
Germany3941 Posts
Ticktock says two lines before that you shouldn't compare games with Rels, because of his variability, then gives him a slight townlean based off of what can only be characterized as meta analysis off of previous games. Why would you think his scum play is likely to play out one way or another when you've just admitted that he has various playstyles? Again, I disagree. I consider the first line to be a metaanalysis on activity (= you cant meta him on activity). While the second is more of an analysis on general town/scumtraits. Imho you are just tunneling here, and try to spin things so they fit your foregone conclusion. | ||
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NeverUnlucky
Canada1622 Posts
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Tictock
United States6051 Posts
Why do you "like this thinking" if you admit that his first point is null and you don't respond to the second point? If it's all null or NAI, what is there to like? The 2nd point was what I liked. Ticktock says two lines before that you shouldn't compare games with Rels, because of his variability, then gives him a slight townlean based off of what can only be characterized as meta analysis off of previous games. Why would you think his scum play is likely to play out one way or another when you've just admitted that he has various playstyles? I was mostly just saying comparing that game to this one prob wasn't a good way to try and read rels. The other point is my opinion of how Rels plays, take it or leave it, it's speculation hence why I said it's weak. Not trying to rehash everything, but IMO saying it's illogical for town to do something, worded in that way, implies a mafia lean to some extent. TT, can you explain, how it shows "deeper thinking" and why that deeper thinking indicates Calix to be town? Kus it's really easy for scum to go, "Thats illogical! Contradiction! Scum!" but as we all know town acts illogically and contradict themselves plenty often. Trying to find out what caused that by asking questions is that deeper thinking, not pigeon holeing someone based off one silly thing (see Exo or Foreman's push on Calix for examples there). The green implies that TT should be townreading Skynx, and maybe even ExO for doing things "mafia normally wouldn't do" (i.e. drawing attention to themselves early), yet he flips in the next paragraph to saying his opening was scummy for being silent? You can't have it both ways. I was saying he stays in the null scum/territory for me kus of the overall post, not just that last point. A lot of his reasons for scum reading me felt disjointed and the last bit was all BS. How were my reads wrong (especially when he brought up similar points to me on people)? And why would my reads being "wrong" make me mafia? etc etc You might ask why I don't have the same reaction to your post here, but I just get the sense that you don't get my way of thinking/posting rather than putting things together that don't make sense (like the "long silence" thing). | ||
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Calix
3379 Posts
On November 04 2016 02:44 mahrgell wrote: Again, I disagree. I consider the first line to be a metaanalysis on activity (= you cant meta him on activity). While the second is more of an analysis on general town/scumtraits. Imho you are just tunneling here, and try to spin things so they fit your foregone conclusion. This is pretty close to how I read TT's post too. I don't think DF is tunneling but aside from that, I second this. | ||
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mahrgell
Germany3941 Posts
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NeverUnlucky
Canada1622 Posts
On November 04 2016 02:43 Calix wrote: If you got "Calix and NU town-read each other" and "bicker and harp on the same points" at this point in time from us then you haven't been reading. I think he's mafia. I'm currently ignoring him until I'm prepared to re-evaluate him since he might just be a shitter. As you may have gathered, it's difficult for either of us to form an impartial read on the other. Also he irritates me and I'd rather play the game without dealing with that. Literally all I am asking you is to read and respond to my answers. | ||
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