EPTTL Mafia LXXIV: Storm Mafia 3
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Kurumi
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On March 24 2016 07:13 Koshi wrote: Confirmed Town + Show Spoiler + Likely Town + Show Spoiler + Maybe town + Show Spoiler + Not going to lynch Town + Show Spoiler + Null + Show Spoiler + VayneAuthority Kurumi Stutters695 Damdred sandroba ObiWanShinobi Rels justanothertownie Tictock ritoky sicklucker Alakaslam Tumblewood Shapelog Vivax rsoultin LightningStrike Superbia Tubesock gumshoe Won't lynch right now Mafia + Show Spoiler + Maybe Mafia + Show Spoiler + Likely Mafia + Show Spoiler + Confirmed Mafia + Show Spoiler + What was the meaning of this post? What the hell is "Won't lynch right now Mafia" - is there any case where you don't lynch a Mafia I am missing? Why do you need the "Confirmed" spoiler if the confirmation comes from the host through flips and the updated player list? Is the reason you made that list is that Mafia has a cheatsheet for shots? Nothing good can come from this. I highly dislike this type of lists, especially that you have not commented on what is going to happen with it. On March 24 2016 07:53 gumshoe wrote: Maybe I've missed an evolution somewhere along the line but slam seems to be actually trying as opposed to just flaunting his usual semi troll trot. Which isn't a point I'm going to level against him cause wow that would just be bad, but is of note for better or worse. Damdred is of course fishing as one would expect of ether side, words like interesting are rather neutral. A call to arms is also fairly vague, clearly he has notions of how peeps react to something like that, or mabs he's willing to play it by ear. His post feels cautious and calculated few words as it may be. Which could be scummy depending on his meta ( never played with him ) seems intelligent regardless. Parabola sounds like he just doesn't wanna get anyone on his tail but still wants to appear to be a present and beloved member of town. Could be scums, could just be excited to play, maybe he's bieng light to try to attract heat for said lightness thereby kick starting stuff. Multiple personalities can be envisioned from the posts so far, but there is no real leaning towards good or evil. As one would expect a page in to a game. TLDR As of yet, nothing worth acting on outside of concert with more proof. TLDR for TLDR stuff is stuff This post gave me so many rubs in such bad ways that I just can't let it go. a) The comment on Slam: Not only it's absolutely unnecessary, it ends with "Well, I shouldn't bring it up because it's bad" - so why bother? You know it is bad and you still do it. I mean, I guess you want people to focus on that for some reason, but I'd rather focus on you. Also, if Chezinu Rule is to be trusted, we may have another testament to this. b) Damdred's fishing. Not only I have not seen anything of that nature till that post, but also we are met with a statement that "fishing is to be expected of either side". Oh boy, no, not at all. Fishing for roles is not something you expect from either side. Fishing is Mafia's job. I highly dislike the attempt to paint it as ambiguous. I also do not understand why would you bring attention to any odd words in a person's post. If that's a crumb, you don't want Mafia to see it. Odd wording - go ahead, it might be a slip. But random, seemingly non-related words? No way. c) Read on Superbia. Another read straight outta fortune teller. Why would you, gumshoe, try to paint Superbia as suspicious? At the point of posting that, the only thing Superbia has said about himself was that "you should care about him", which pretty much goes contrary to your point about him not wanting anyone on his tail. d) You end your post saying that it is not really worth much, but you managed to paint Superbia scum, excuse Damdred non-existant fishing and point out that pointing out Slam's behaviour at this stage of the game does more harm than good. You note that people might be excited about something, that they look for something, but you seem not to look for anything. You created a mid-sized post detailing less than a page of a game for nothing, what you admit, but you would not have done that if it really was nothing, so what is your agenda behind that post? | ||
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On March 24 2016 08:51 Superbia wrote: Might still be VT. But I'm claiming I'm not. No role discussion, unless you are Scum and are benefiting from it, damn you! Ritoky, why bring VT thing in the thread?! | ||
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On March 24 2016 08:59 LightningStrike wrote: So Kurumi any other thoughts you want to share? People should slow the hell down, I am astonished with the role talking and people manage to create another page of it. I see nothing wrong with Superbia's early vote on gumshoe. When did sicklucker say anything about gumshoe? He has vote on him and no posts to back it up. | ||
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On March 24 2016 09:04 gumshoe wrote: 1: There is no real substance insofar in game hence there is no real substance to the post / : 2: I am self admittedly terrible at fishing, every atempt I have made to fish has ended in disaster because the truth is I am natural bait without a modicum of effort and said effort usually casts me too far into the jaws to escape. So I dont fish except on holidays which limits my early game contribtion 3:my post isnt trying to acomplish anything really / : its a look into my thought process which I usually commit to thread as a matter of course. 4: If you think I posted because I felt pressured to post, your not wrong, I want to play and engage with others, not lurk, if what I have to offer on page two of the game isnt up to par, my apologies / : there are no real accusations because there are no evident scum, only thoughts on play and considerations for the future. 1. Then why did you try to make it look like there is any substance to your post? 2. Okay, but how is that a reply to my point about fishing being mafia-sided? Or that you are accusing Damdred of it, while he has not done that? 3. It does seem more of a process of incriminating others than your thought process. I see more accusations in this post than analysis. 4. Fine. There are many ways to enter a game. Making a post like this is not a town-way of entering the game. One this is to be pressured to post, another is to be pressured to post something of substance. Mafia is more prone to feel the second pressure, which I think your post has shown - it might look like it has substance, but under a second of thought it turns out to only look like it. On March 24 2016 09:04 LightningStrike wrote: It was a indirect reference. Thanks. Still, out of gumshoe's terrible post he decides that talking about Slam is the biggest indicator of gumshoe being scum? Where's the explanation sicklucker?! I disagree that talking about Slam is an indicator of being scum (in this case) - the way gumshoe has talked about Slam is an indicator of being scum. Huge difference. | ||
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On March 24 2016 09:55 gumshoe wrote: just voted for Kurumi, but yeah my primary problem is she is pursuing two reads that are fairly opposed without a hint of reservation regarding that conflict. From a townie perspective those two reads would clash and be worthy of note in provided logic, but it hasnt even occured to Kurumi insofar. What seems more likely is she just doesnt want to draw atention to the Janus nature of her current logic, a setup that favours an outcome for scum wherein I and lick are both town. it feels like an opinion born of machinations rather then genuine perspective. Poisened at it's root with contradiction. (ok now I'll go out.... ON A HIGH NOTE) I opinion born of machinations rather then genuine perspective. You are clearly trying to twist your errors so they fit your narrative. I've never called sicklucker scum. I only have said that his reason for voting you is: a) nonexistent as in, he never gave his own reason for that b) the one we can dig up from his one-liner is that he feels that talking about Slam early is scum-indicative, which I disagree. As I said before, the way you talk about Slam is scummy, not the fact you have talked about him at all. As you can see, I have my vote casted on nobody. Not you, not sicklucker. The reason? I believed that you might really be a Townie with a really weird approach, so I pushed you to give me an explanation for your actions. Your explanation so far was that you've done those things to do anything at all for the sake of not being accused of doing nothing. That is not a Townie perspective. As for sicklucker, I still await his response. Can you be both scum? Sure, you can be. His vote has weight of zero, being so fast and based on a such dubious reasoning. There's nothing contradictory in a story where sicklucker votes for you because he sees you dun goofed and then he "changes his mind" based on your explanations. He voted in such a way it is very easy to unvote you. There was no case or explanation given. But that's not the story I believe in. I believe that sicklucker has laid down a weak vote because he could. Really, it doesn't require much to vote, I could vote anyone right now, especially a person who has not shown up yet and what happens? Nothing. Everyone knows that my vote is a weak one. I could pick a one line off someone's post this early, which is not strongly indicative and decide that's my reason for voting. It's a weak vote - everyone will see that. If he were to unvote you it would not say much to me, yet. But I believe he will be more dead-set on you after your follow-up play. And I am not "setting up a lynch". You are doing it yourself. Setting up a lynch is enraging Kavdragon and pushing your agenda so Town agrees that his anger and his play is not Town-oriented. I want to lynch you based on what you have said and what you have done, not what explanations I give to people. I am not trying to create a narrative surrounding your actions: I am openly questioning them and your explanations, your own words, condemn you. After the initial "well I am a weak player, I make mistakes, oh well, but they were good mistakes! Ones to be done!" you go after me as if your previous actions did not take place. I called your behaviour into question, you have defended it, never explaining how are they not scum-indicative, but saying over and over that it's just you being bad. When I called you on your iffy reasoning for thinking people are scummy - you have not commented on that. You have defended fishing as a townie thing to do. No, fishing (that is, trying to get a role read off someone) is not a townie thing to do. As a townie, you do not try to give information that mafia might act upon! What good can come from getting someone to claim VT or non-VT? None! None for a townie! All in all, all you have done this game is post the way a scared scum feels like, admit to it, defend a scum agenda and try to paint me in a bad light. That won't pass. I am now voting you, because I am sure that you are Mafia. On March 24 2016 09:13 Shapelog wrote: Kurminia or how ever you spell that name. Since you hate this role talk, lets talk something else. What is your favorite color of a bomb pop? Also do you have any stances on player's alignment yet that you have not meation? It's Kurumi and I am a he. I have no idea what a bomb pop is and why it should matter. Yes, I do. I am very vary of ritoky, I like Superbia, LightningStorm. No idea what your sonic post was meant to bring to the thread. You seem to like the idea of gumshoe being town, but you have so far not done much to defend him or anything else. Why are you so careless about your town-read being the main topic so far? | ||
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On March 24 2016 11:42 LightningStrike wrote: You sure that all of gunshoe's post can be from scum!gunshoe? If so I getting townie vibes from him atm so I heavily disagree with you there. Show me what I am unable to see. I might be tunneled, I don't really believe that, but maybe I am missing something. I mean, he is defending himself through attacking me - which doesn't rub me any townie way. | ||
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On March 24 2016 11:50 LightningStrike wrote: He isn't really afraid to speak to others and actually talked other people outside of you granted it was before you attacked him but he aint afraid to speak his mind when he's around which I feel is townie. Although granted he haven't played a game on TL for a while. But that talking was for the sake of talking. That's why I am pushing him. Not being afraid is a natural thing here - he's now the topic, if he buries underground it will be even worse for him. | ||
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Also, bollocks. I really was wrong. I really was too harsh. I wanted to keep up with that and attack Koshi, but then he decided to play his Town game and break all the vows and rave around. So Koshi moved from a scum-leaning to town-leaning in my eyes. Play after gumshoe's death and his relentlessness about ritoky only proves that. Also, don't do the list only Koshi, because what I am doing right now is giving you a pass for now, not forever. As for ritoky: Holy shit dude, your plan... wasn't that... great. Yeah, you've done that and I believe you, but that brought a lot more harm than anything else. As a person who has hosted games and has played in fair share of them, not only hosts give the Vanilla Townie name (and sometimes more) they also offer fakeclaims for every role under the sun. Your argument that revealing VTs would create an impossible-to-combat Town Circle is also wrong, because, well, your assumption was that people who know the name will behave accordingly... which is people being VTs and Mafia. I think your play is more indicative of a naive townie than a scum. If you were scum, you'd be more blunt about the claim. Maybe claim the name in some disorted way, maybe hint it more strongly, I have no idea, but for sure you'd try to fish for someone disagreeing with you. Another slight-town read. Back to Slam. If he were Mafia and that was a Mafia shot, all I'd see now should be "LYNCH KURUMI" and it is not the case. So it means the shot was not used as a means to incriminate me or cast doubt, or leverage it in any way. While I was not the only one voting gumshoe, I was the person pushing the hardest since the very first post of mine. Is there a chance that Slam was bluffing/trolling/whatever and Mafia decided to use that to kill Shoe and let the responsibility for the kill just land on Slam? There's no one on Slam either, yet... So it seems that this kill went through without any group agenda, leading me to believe that it was Town KP, be it Slam or anyone else. It just lacks follow-up, both ways (against me and against Slam) have not been taken by anyone. I think Slam is town. So that's it for the current things. I will look up shoe's filter and wander around in thread as well, because I need another shot of Scumus Readus for both this shift and another or I'll goddamn die. | ||
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On March 24 2016 22:52 Superbia wrote: Actually my problem lies with Koshi's push, and it doesn't necessarily directly relates to Koshi's alignment, but more to the fact that I feel he may have been spewed by mafia (i.e. people are calling him town too quickly). I will elaborate. Koshi's "anger-push" on Ritoky was completely unfounded, as Ritoky had gum high in his town-list (a post that was posted pretty much before the shot), as a result of his post (and a small number of other circumstances), Ritoky would've never shot gum. This is somewhat obvious from first glace, and completely obvious after looking deeper into it (even without considering Slam's soft). I felt that the emotion behind Koshi's post was townie, but the content was absolutely not. It was undirected and based on nothing close to logic. I believe that this does not mean Koshi is mafia, but rather that the people who piled on to calling Koshi town that quickly are more suspect (i.e. I'm the first to bring this up). He is more likely town precisely because of his anger-push being unfounded. Classic town Koshi. | ||
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While I was still doing pressure Vivax came into the thread calling Koshi, Shoe and Me into question. | ||
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On March 24 2016 23:42 Superbia wrote: What's the average mafia count in a 21 player game? Assuming there is 3rd party and stuff too (I'm assuming there is). The formula is usually Players/5 rounded down, so that'd be 4 Mafia this game, was there a third party in either of Storm Mafias? On March 25 2016 00:02 justanothertownie wrote: I don't understand this paragraph at all. Why does mafia need to follow up on this? The logical/natural thing for them to do if slam is in fact mafia is to wait and see how well it goes/if he gets away with it before acting. Well, I think that they'd use the momentum created by the shot to some end. I have not seen that in the thread, people are not really reading Slam as scum, people are not super focused on people who were pushing gumshoe, I think if Mafia shot gum, they'd want the discussion to be on those points, not any others like we have right now. That's just the world I am in. On March 25 2016 01:24 Tubesock wrote: Good morning. Kurumi is my biggest scum read. Seems opportunistic with the Gumdrops push. Damdred was fishing (but not for roles) and it didn't seem Gums was saying Damdred was fishing for that, but Kurumi jumps his ass. Meanwhile Ritoky ACTUALLY fishes for roles yet all Kurumi says is "very vary of Ritoky". The rest of Kurumi's posts seem nitpicky. Tumble and Shape are forgettable and blending. I'm going to leave Koshi at null. I'm not liking his "play" but I did like his little outburst of emotion. Although, I find it hard to believe that can't be faked. As far as town I think my strongest TR's are Superbia, Vivax just below Jat and Rels. Damdred with a town lean. Ritoky probably is in fact VT. Slam I think is probably town. I am having trouble seeing the point of breadcrumbing so much if he were mafia. Why not just shut up and blow someone up? I do want to hear his explanation. Read my posts again(not skim!) so you can have a good town read on me, because my filter defends itself without any problems. Just because I have not coloured every of my reads or made a list of them doesn't mean they are not there. Gumshoe's filter wasn't really that exciting besides him sharing my suspicions on both Koshi and sicklucker, he did not have time to bring anything new to the table sadly. His last couple of posts was finally something I expected out of him. He also looked like agreeing with me more and more. On the topic of sicklucker: What was good in my post you quoted? What are your scumreads and why? I don't like that you just quoted my entire post and said it was good while not really pushing anyone or anything in the thread. I am also let down by Alakaslam, he could've said that we have a way to kill two D1, basically a double lynch and we could just make him shoot the second person in line... Why the bloodlust Slam, why?! It's so anti-town the only reason I think you are Town is that noone is trying to capitalize on it... For the last 20 minutes I've been looking for a post suggesting that scum's KP is up for them to decide whether to use it day or night, it felt like hardcore slip, but then I might've dreamt it... | ||
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On March 25 2016 06:38 Tubesock wrote: I didn't skim your posts. I did not bring up your lack or reads so why the defensiveness? What I think your reads were is basically Superbia and Lightninstrike are town and ritoky and Gum were mafia. ALthough you didn't talk much about ritoky. Not nearly as much as Gum anyway. What do you currently think of Ritoky? You accused me of not being hard enough on ritoky - that I am hard on fishing, but not on him, although he is fishing. Look at my posts! I said that role talk is absolutely terrible, that people should stop and that I am vary of ritoky. He was my 2nd scum read at the time - but what I saw in gumshoe was more sure for me - I saw scum agenda together with defending scum agenda, can't get more scummy than that this early. I have already voiced my opinion on ritoky, if you really read my posts you should know that he had a paragraph in my last big post. | ||
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On March 25 2016 06:52 justanothertownie wrote: I think I said that I wouldn't lynch slam very soon. Ritoky still deserves a lot of suspicion for making a play that only helps mafia. I would love to lynch Ritoky, but his play was so terrible I can't believe a scum would make it... Or am I being double fooled here, JAT? | ||
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On March 25 2016 06:58 justanothertownie wrote: As long as you get away with it it is not a terrible play as mafia. And ritoky is known for making plays. Yeah, fair point. From ritoky's posts I get mixed signals as well - I feel that he really doesn't know what's more important for him: establishing his own innocence or establishing an outcome good for the town. My gut tells me that his line of thought was: "I have a plan, if it works, I will be a hero and I will be established as confirmed town!" while for plans it should rather be a communal perspective: if it works, Town has the upper-hand. So what I am trying to say is that I feel like ritoky wanted to use the plan as a mean to prove himself as "Town", while helping Town in any way was a secondary consideration. But did this plan ever have a chance of success, knowing the prowess of the hosts? I don't think so. So it either was a play, or a badly thought-out plan, which you tell me I should not expect from someone like ritoky. Am I making sense here? | ||
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On March 25 2016 07:15 ritoky wrote: holy fuck it was not badly thought out. screw everyone who thinks so. that plan is really fucking good. execution dumpster tier? yes. but that plan is amazing, will defend it to no end. do not give any fucks. You do know that hard setups like to have additional conditional KP? Like Assassins? You could've put us into a quite a pickle. | ||
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Is it really that huge? 21 players total. 4 probably Mafia. 17 players left. 8 players believe that they are Town. You still have 9 Townies not sharing that sentiment. That's excluding possible 3rd party shenanigans and different Mafia size (I could see it being 5 even). It does not seem that huge. Because it is 8 players analysing 13 players, you are much more likely to down or out a blue. This would probably result in last minute switch shenanigans and disorder. This would lead to Mafia having even more information. In that 8, you could have three Mafia who figured out that it is a good idea to get on that Ford Wave and now you have 5 townies believing strongly that 3 players are Townie, but are actually Mafia. Mafia creates lynch after lynch, blue blood is the last sight of the day, blue blood is the first sight of the day and since this setup is about being careful, I don't see it being good. | ||
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Keep in mind that I am his top scum read and is interested in what other people think of me. Late to the thread. | ||
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On March 25 2016 07:29 Shapelog wrote: + Show Spoiler + ![[image loading]](http://www.picgifs.com/reaction-gifs/reaction-gifs/doctor-who/picgifs-doctor-who-1169155.gif) Damm i pick like the worse time to leave. Can someone tell me why the plan was bad? I thought the execution could of been better but i liked the concept. Jesus I've been leaving you and your "Kurumi is X." Some posts later "Kurumi is Y." later: "Hey Dude, do you think Kurumi is more of a X or more of a Z?", are you able to make your goddamn mind about anything without the help of others? It feels like you are trying the ground everytime you do post a read. You feel very insecure and for a person with such contrary opinion to the current state of the thread your defense of ritoky is very weak. What is good about the concept? You agree that execution was bad, but why and why would it point to ritoky Town? | ||
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On March 25 2016 07:59 justanothertownie wrote: Are you 2 seriously arguing over the completely irrelevant math of a number ritoky obviously just made up to prove his point? Wtf. I only made one post on this, no idea why Shape brought it up, the thing that stroke me the most was that ritoky thought 8 players is huge, while it is not. BTW JAT, there is one thing I like about sandroba lynch: past experience with scum in Storm 1. RebirthOfLegend went MIA, I believe on Day 2, because we thought he'd be modkilled on the basis of lack of activity, but more seriously because of playing against wincon of either side, we lynched someone else. He lived on, even posted very fast after the lynch happened. He was the Mafia Poisoner. There is a world where sandroba is a red role and just wants to survive the D1, but I think sandroba has enough time to prove us wrong if he chooses to pop into the thread in like, even 12 hours. I won't support the sandy lynch right now, I just wanted to say that there was a play concerning "afk" mafia in the first Storm Mafia and because of lack of activity requirements we need to keep an eye on that. | ||
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On March 25 2016 21:16 LightningStrike wrote: Just woke up and sandroba just started posting o.o Seems okay for now but I only remember playing with him as scum once and and him being scum vs my town in ippo when he and yamato were up for Day 1 and they both were scum and I thought Yamato was scummier. Meh. @anyone who is around can we talk please? Just woke up and read the thread. If my old meta read is still to be applied to sandroba, he seems to be town for the sole reason of posting chaotically and even carelessly today. I think mafia sandroba is a lot more calculated. But even without meta, I think that the way he approached being late to the thread looks very townie - he dynamically posted as he read the thread, giving his thought process and evolution of views on the way. As scum I think you'd rather come with a big post and solidified reads, so it's easier to twist them instead of procedurally create them. I want to have more of Slam as well, especially because it seems I was the one to convince him that shooting gumshoe is the shot to be made. I need to get into rsoul and tumble better, did not pay the most attention to them. | ||
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On March 25 2016 21:40 ObiWanShinobi wrote: Sandroba is probably town. Too much going on in his posts for him to be mafia. Is that what you'd say about everyone who does that or only sandroba? | ||
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On March 25 2016 21:44 Superbia wrote: Obi/Kurumi, your thoughts at this point in time? I have a feeling that Mafia is playing a Lurker city type of game so far. VA's post rubbed me totally the wrong way, given that he was in the thread and failed to make any contributions and now he declared he's afk till D2. He did not even vote.... Still don't like sicklucker (gut tells me so, he seems to be apathetic about the game) and Tubesock's gameplay so far has been iffy. | ||
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On March 25 2016 22:08 Vivax wrote: I have a feeling you are mafia, this feels like one of the few games where I can say that I think VA is town cause he had the opportunity to talk about a lot of useless stuff that has been going on and he didn't, which I'm confident he would do as mafia. He pretty much only talked about what was important to him even though it would seem like it wasn't enough content and not ritokys plays or the shot on gum which are a great semi-usefulness generator for mafia. At the end of the day I might end up sheeping sandroba, dunno depends on me finding stuff that can actually get a mafia lynched. Kurumi Koshi seem like good places I will look at, and rsoultin cause my newly found townreads think shes mafia. All that is in VA's filter is that he will be voting for rso and that he did not read much of the thread. He brought nothing of substance concerning rso, he said his vote would be be "half policy, half read". So no, he wasn't useful, he did not talk only about things important to him - his entire filter is just fluff like "oh man blues be blues everytime I play a game". He actively avoided talking about anything at all in any way and you believe that's better than talking? Bogus Vivax, bogus. Why do you want to sheep sandroba? Why are you already agreeing that rso is a good lynch prior to having your own opinion? The only good thing from this post of yours is the mention of Koshi @Koshi get into the thread and post normally or I am going to arrange us a lovely rendez-vous. | ||
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On March 26 2016 00:00 Tubesock wrote: Gums had votes on him already and was in danger. Why would anyone need to go all super giant case on the guy with what like 36 hours left in the day? If you are looking for someone to just lynch, then sure, secure that shit right away. But if you're town, I'd think you'd want to find out more and gain truth. Maybe that's a giant case by your standards, for mine, it's an usual post (after I moved from my troll meta >_>). I don't like spamming and having more than EWODP after your post is in my opinion clogging the thread. (Superbia, please...) My post wasn't an appeal to Town, I wanted to point out why gumshoe's actions add up from a scum perspective and wanted him to respond, if his responses were lacking, I'd have done work needed to give explanation for voting him. To add to that, do you really think that as Mafia the first post I'd do would be the biggest post in the thread with the most serious accusation? Gumshoe was in no way in any danger, people largely dismissed my case because they thought that shoe's behaviour is more indicative of Townie trying to get discussion rolling and the only problem they had was the point on slam. I was the only one seriously pushing gumshoe, the votes he had on him (especially sicklucker) weren't strongly rooted. It was very early in the game and many players have not even posted. Your narrative of gumshoe being so close to dead and entire thread piling on him is just plainly not true. Anyone who reads my posts instead of relying people who have soft-pushed from the very start will know that what I've done is townie and only that. I've been angry last couple of days because my gf and this nonsensical anti-town behaviour "hurr durr mafia make cases, let me write two lines, that is townie play" is really putting me off this game. Palmar told me nothing about meta being pants-on-head retarded and I guess he should've. You are not attacking the quality of my reasoning, you are attacking the fact I attempted to reason at all! Because I made a case on a particular person I am scum in your eyes. The only people who strongly stay by their beliefs so far are Me, Slam, sandroba, Superbia, jat and ritoky. Others seem to be fine with plastering someone with town or scum without much reasoning behind it and then giving reasons like "this one post is cool" "I agree with his read on x" "I feel like it" or even "making cases and showing your reasoning IS BADDDDDDDDD". You let people run around with not backing up their reads, which allows them to change them on the fly. That is not a good town atmosphere, but maybe it's the meta. The Romantic Era of meta, where the feelings matter and the brain tells straight up lies. | ||
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On March 26 2016 00:28 rsoultin wrote: this is not what tube said at all and i'm pretty sure you know that -_- He said my post was too big for the time of the game and that only scum would push gumshoe, because he was so obviously scummy that it was obvious that he was town PRETTY EASY TO SAY THAT WE HAS TOWNIE AFTER HE ALREADY FLIPPED, HUH? | ||
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On March 26 2016 00:32 rsoultin wrote: hyperbole much? like, you're right, these reads came later cause he entered the thread later, which is why i questioned him on gum to begin with since gum was doing the same thing he's accusing you of doing, yet you're completely misrepresenting what he's scumreading you for which just makes me twitch >< That's what he said. He said I made an ultra big post (lol no read maybe games from 2012 or so) that I nitpicked (lol no) and ME PUSHING GUM MADE HIM THINK GUM IS INNOCENT, like his reasoning for gum being town while he was reading the thread is because someone scumread him (just like Tube himself!) and began pushing him. I wonder what Tube would've done on my spot, probably pat gumshoe on the back and tell him "oh man you are such a townie looking like obvious scum hahahahaha" and then proceed to wait for someone to put effort in the game and call them scum, because town-meta is that the first person to put effort is scum, because effort is not needed to win games when it's Romantic era, FEELINGS AND PRAYERS ARE THE WAY | ||
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On March 26 2016 00:43 rsoultin wrote: @.@ the irony here is actually kinda delicious lol >> too much effort to case a player already being lynched, he said, and frankly it's a good point. also, it's not crazy to go hey, scummy guy...wait, scummier guy biting his head off maybe the scummy guy is town after all...the only caveat here is of course we can't know cause he wasn't in thread when it was actually going down the story itself is fine just unverifiable. who do you think is scum other than tube? HE HAD LIKE THREE VOTES ON HIM AND ONE FROM SICKLUCKER WHO SAID IT WAS A PRESSURE VOTE HIMSELF HE WAS NOWHERE BEING LYNCHED AM I THE ONLY PERSON LITERATE ENOUGH TO READ WHAT PEOPLE WRITE IN THIS GAME | ||
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Just in case So, maybe some of you aren't convinced that I am Town, but I believe that Scum have no qualms like that and I am probably going to bite the dust here. While I was wrong on both shoe and Tube, I feel that I was well-grounded on my reads, which people actually have agreed with - seeing that Tube was lynched and shoe was read two-ways based on the same point I brought up. I might've said one thing too much on top of all that, which might seal the deal even more. Anyway, this is why I am writing this post - I believe I have played a strong game and that I am now going to go down because of it. So I gotta leave you with some reads to work with. My proposed Mafia team is: Koshi ritoky rsoultin Ticktock/Stutters695/Tumblewood/VayneAuthority aka lurker-class scum. Now the reasons: For Koshi they are simple and people have picked up on that. First, the list. It's utterly insignificant, unhelpful, but great to look like he is doing something. He also said something about a plan and he - as we can see in the thread, abandoned it without any word on what the plan was and how it was supposed to help Town (What we can gather, his plan was to post the list only and only that, which, as you can guess, I am not going to Town-read at all!). Koshi's played a very wishy-washy game. He voted lots (ritoky, Alakaslam, tumblewood, sandroba, Tubesock), voted lots of flimsy evidence and has defended rsoultin, while townreading people seeing her as scum. He himself admits that. It looks like a good setup to be able to back-pedal on his vote on Tube when things get heated: I was just wrong guys, like look: I was townreading the guys against her! It is especially damning that having such townreads did not make him reconsider his stance on rsoultin. One of the most damning things for me though, besides the wishy-washiness is how he has played the game during the night: this is the moment Koshi is the most active, fearless about the results of the Night kills. He is above that. No worries - Koshi is going to be here on D2! How does he know that? Well, he knows where the KP is going. He knows that KP is not heading his way, unless his team partners decide to be silly pranksters! Look how contrarian to everything he is and how little effort he puts into it: he has those reads only to sow distrust among us. ritoky: His play was questioned before. I once decided that his play was just dumb, but dumb in a Townie way. But after the D1 has ended, we saw no follow-up. No redemption. He made us look at him and then disappeared, while believing he is near confirmed town! I understand that RL reasons are there, but come on, if you plan something, you have the time. So it's a contradiction. Remember that ritoky was defended by rsoultin by the very start and many people around the time of his fuckup have come into the thread and started to throw acussations my way. RSO defends him, Koshi makes no case against him besides saying he is Mafia. The votes weren't on him, only lots of suspicion around. All he has done was to introduce chaos into the thread, his teammate rsoultin dipped too much anyway. Handling by her has been acknowledged and she was up as one of the lynch candidates. rsoultin: Her showing, especially handling the ritoky situation (hardcore defense) her absence for lots of late D1, the vote on me feels like she tried to avoid any responsibility with the lynch. She was fine with what was happening and she was the only one to vote together with Tubesock on me - but made no effort to defend him and herself from killing them. The lurkers... well... it's easier to get disinterested in a game if you are scum, because you know that it needs more effort to work out. | ||
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On March 27 2016 20:31 justanothertownie wrote: You shot Koshi? May I ask why the fuck you would do that? I crumbed it earlier, was on him since the very first post and had a big post on him before the deadline? Why would I NOT should Koshi? I like the idea of shooting lurkers, but given that we have too many of them I wanted to kill the guy who is not the most active nor the least, so the perfect scum spot. | ||
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shoot Koshi?* | ||
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On March 27 2016 20:35 justanothertownie wrote: Because there is no way in hell that Koshi survives this game. If he is town we will make him show his colors. If he is mafia we will lynch him anyways. We will know his alignment soon enough. He is an awful shot. I do not like this claim at all. I am not giving Mafia a single additional role action, not after RoL Poisoner fiasco in the first one. No chance. No chance in fucking hell. I am not waiting on Koshi, his time is up - he had entire D1 to get off his shitty list play and he didn't, he got active during the night being all cocky. | ||
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On March 27 2016 20:39 justanothertownie wrote: Which is mafia indicative how exactly? Are you certain of surviving any night ever? I wasn't. I am not. We lynched, I think Toad, based on his line saying that we'll see him tomorrow. He was scum. If that doesn't work for you, then why Koshi puts the most effort during the night, when nothing can be changed? | ||
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On March 27 2016 20:47 Vivax wrote: Dayvig and 2 vigs, and no mafia KP tonight? Kurumi shouldn't you be fighting it out with Slam or Sandro instead of koshi in the position you claim you are in? Hey, it is weird for me as well, especially given two flipped blues, the suspicion of two mafia shots getting deflected somehow (so two powers got involved into that most likely), dayvig, 2 vigs and sl claim. And Koshi did not die. And I did shoot. So another. I am as lost as you are. | ||
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On March 27 2016 21:09 sandroba wrote: yo kurumi what's the name of your role and what does it do? I'm a Soldier, I can SHOOT EVERY NIIIIIIIIIIIGHT but I have one bullet(!). If I was back in the troll meta I'd try dissecting the bullet and making another one, but I passed on that. The Lord of Kalmars might've not appreciated the Chezinu flavour. | ||
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I think JAT, Superbia, Dam, Shape, LS and sandroba are OK. Ticktock has said he believes rso on the basis of crumbs, but has for some reason not seen me crumbing Koshi as someone I want dead since the very first post (also, the rendez-vous part...) so I have no idea what the hell happened there. I have no idea why VA pops in just to propose Tumble as a lynch without pushing him hard enough given the time we have left. OBS is sceptic enough for me to believe he is on the town side. Scum list: Koshi rsoultin ritoky VA/Ticktock Ritoky is too apathetic and my old reasons still are here, as for his question: you'd like to know what happened to my bullet, friend. You'd like to. I believe sandroba's claim, I believe that Slam is Town, rso could be a fifth party planar dragon for all I care. Any questions? | ||
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On March 29 2016 05:15 VayneAuthority wrote: That could be the most nonsensical mafia list ive seen in a while, and me being on it is the least of its problems. You have done nothing so far and the moment you can do something you steer the discussion away from the pressing matters without much substance. Come on, prove me wrong for thinking that an opportunistic VA is not scum. | ||
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On March 29 2016 05:18 VayneAuthority wrote: I dont have any experience with kurumi so I have zero idea what it means for his alignment. Probably too dumb for scum though, I would never hit enter on that post as mafia in a billion years Your own list has rso and Ticktock on it. | ||
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On March 29 2016 05:24 VayneAuthority wrote: I edited that, it was supposed to be tumblewood not tictock. But yes that's true. I just dont see why ritoky would spend the entire game bitching at eachother as a scum team that seems exhausting. or why koshi would join in and take a side on it and shit on ritoky completely randomly. Or why I would be pushing one and not the other (gain nothing from that) I have a lot of problems with it as a team I have played a scum game where there was agreed that two players are going to go against each other's throats from the get go. Don't remember which, but I think it had geript it in. It's not unusual for scum to pick two players to have polarizing plays. It is not unusual for the third member to sling some shit at one of them, especially so effortlessly (Koshi). The common thing between my suspects is: - No cases being done - Reasoning weak, wrong or invalid - Bad thread presence - When they have time they waste it on squabbles and pushing reads contrary to everything is happening Tick made no case, says rso is town based on crumbs but misses my crumbs, came late to the thread, has no thread presence, RSO made no cases, bar maybe ritoky, where she says that he is scum because HE BOTCHES HIS OWN PLAN not because the plan is better for scum than for town, she disappeared for D1, not really active now, her vote is on me, AGAIN, rit himself made the shitty plan and then disappeared and made no contributions and now you're here for no cases, for a contrary opinion and instead of pushing it hard, you are here to discuss my scum list somehow not being good enough. Come on. | ||
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On March 29 2016 05:29 rsoultin wrote: pues, i still want a kuru lynch his tube read seemed ridic fake, and the fact that when i pointed that out people jumped down my throat makes me feel he's even more likely scum not lynching koshi, btw ^^ LOL I was the second vote and my case was found to be solid enough to be the argument for lynching Tube instead of you you say thank you with those scummy lips of yours | ||
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On March 29 2016 05:38 rsoultin wrote: -_- excuse me the argument? arrogant much? your entire post was OMGUS OMGUS RAGE PUKE RAGE lol >< god i hope you're scum cause if you're actually this obtuse you should join sl in the dunce corner oh shit I should drop you off my list because you are voting me again, sorry, I must have misread my PM  | ||
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On March 29 2016 06:41 Rels wrote: Koshi you claimed vet right ? Nope. He said that he had to be protected or I blocked for him to live. | ||
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"Kurumi, you are not the shennanies guy. Do you remember good shennanies? No, you don't." and "Shennanies fail. What then? Koshi/rso/tumble die. Are you fine with it? The least with Tumble, but you could be wrong on your lurker of choice and he rubbed you the wrong way. They want to go for Ticktock, are you okay with that? Sure am. So I don't need to swing my phone in front of my birthday cake." As for Jat's plan of me being in a team with Ticktock... with how N1 went, he could've claimed he saved anybody and we'd be none the wiser. Add the roleblocking bit and we're also in a weird spot. I really shot Koshi. I really lost my bullet. I have no idea why. Koshi's alive. The rules for refunding bullets vary from the game and this one won't tell me which one is it because of info rules. | ||
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On March 31 2016 00:11 sandroba wrote: Even if kurumi comes in and says he didn't shoot rsoultin I'm still not lynching him over VA. Kurumi is historically d1 lynch bait and both rsoul AND TT called him scum multiple times and were trying to push a lynch on him. No way this guy dies before the barely mentioned straw grasping VA. This guy gets it. That's why I was so adamant on people who were attacking me D1 and then carried on this behaviour onto D2. I've been pushed from every direction and really no one defended me seriously (if ever based on how I played, disregarding what I've done with my shot). | ||
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On March 31 2016 00:15 sandroba wrote: Palmar actually answer me about this yesterday and he said no. Interesting. | ||
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On March 31 2016 00:16 VayneAuthority wrote: You realize though if you're town that sandroba is most likely scum? Why? | ||
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On March 31 2016 00:19 Rels wrote: It should not be interesting to you since you apparently already knew that ? "Notifications You will not receive any information you don’t need. You will not know if you were roleblocked, saved, investigated, visited or whether or not any of your actions had their desired effects or not. You can ask, but if I did not send you any information, you probably shouldn’t receive any." I thought that it'd be redundant to ask if I were not to know that anyway. | ||
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On March 31 2016 03:29 sicklucker wrote: Well i mean you are right in saying that 1 of the 3 vigs is almsot always mafia. But I think there is much more obvious mafia right now (va /rels) and then when they flip we can figure out who it is From a host perspective, three vigis in such a game is absolutely nothing weird. | ||
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On March 31 2016 03:33 sicklucker wrote: form a host perspective. not giving mafia at least a 1 shot vig is even weirder. Its been in every 30 player setup I have seen and makes way more sense then 3 town vig's to me I have hosted couple of big games and played in some as well, Mafia Vigilantes were not really that common, it was RB/Framer and rarely Medic for roles. They had Day Vig just for the reason of not auto-confirming Town. The ways Mafia bypassed protection has always been double-stack, roleblock if it removed vet's life for the night or a strongman shot which I've probably seen only in the Spirit Mafia game and in Ace's. Or themed's. | ||
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On March 31 2016 03:49 Koshi wrote: You know what. This still doesnt make sense. 2 mafia kp and 3p kp on mafia does not make sense if the 1 dead from n1 was town. Can people actually use their brain? On N2 it could be 1 KP for mafia because of # of mafia/2 rounded down. | ||
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On March 31 2016 03:55 Koshi wrote: I dont believe a sk holding his shot. I know marv hates that shit. So poison? There was a Mafia Poisoner in Storm 1, so possible. | ||
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On March 31 2016 04:02 Shapelog wrote: Was the posioney told? Jackal's filter from Storm 1 doesn't say that he was told. The spreadsheet has no role info. Ask sandroba, he was co-hosting that game. | ||
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On March 31 2016 04:28 Superbia wrote: Kurumi what do you make of the missing KP on n1? We were lucky. | ||
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On March 31 2016 04:40 Superbia wrote: There's literally 4 KP missing if you include your own if you're town. Or Mafia has 1KP like in Storm 1. Then it's 3 KP missing - mine, 3rd party and one of Mafia trusting sandroba's claim. | ||
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Well you don't think rsoultin was shot by Mafia, do you? | ||
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Well, I don't really believe that rso was shot by third party either. | ||
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Her role. Or second Mafia team. | ||
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On March 31 2016 04:59 Damdred wrote: A team of 5 with a poisoner isn't the worst idea. It explains why we still have two mafia kp and a random third one showing up tonight. Or 2Kp till 2, which I've seen is pretty popular nowadays. | ||
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On March 31 2016 10:28 Damdred wrote: What sucks kurm Not only I am dying, but there's no one to bitch to about that. Feels lonely. | ||
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On March 31 2016 10:53 sicklucker wrote: are you the last of your faction kurumi? ![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/KyDH7eq.png) | ||
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On March 31 2016 11:11 ritoky wrote: zzzzzzzzzzzzz dat concede. 2 factions makes me have to rejoin these pleb unconfirmed tho zzz Serves you right for killing Tina  | ||
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On March 31 2016 11:14 ritoky wrote: did you guys actually shoot koshi? Yeah I did | ||
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On March 31 2016 11:16 ritoky wrote: i wish i had killed her so i could have pranced around Well I could claim I did and no one would cc me, because who could? Fourth vig? lol | ||
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On March 31 2016 11:19 Tumblewood wrote: So Kuru is openly claiming rebel? You can ask me directly, Tumblewood, the Castaway. | ||
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Rumour has it that the Brazilian Conspirator met some flamboyant outsiders long time ago... | ||
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On March 31 2016 11:24 ritoky wrote: he's probably mafia RC and checked tumble would be my guess miss | ||
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On March 31 2016 11:30 LightningStrike wrote: Rolf that scum claim XD. Kuru you forgot something though :o Oh, right. I give the credit for such performance to our coach! Hiii coach! Just kidding. We had no coach. Only cold and hallucinations from malnourishment. | ||
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On March 31 2016 11:33 LightningStrike wrote: kuru if you not getting the memo when you claim scum you post a picture of a baby seal lol. + Show Spoiler + ![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/gICG78g.jpg?1) How did I do? | ||
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On March 31 2016 11:35 LightningStrike wrote: TL tradition has been scum claiming with a picture of a baby seal hence why I said kuru forgot something lol. That must be a liberal tradition. | ||
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On March 31 2016 11:47 ritoky wrote: kp3 from night 2 almost guarantees that the setup is 2 mafia teams of 3 (1 having an addition kp via poisoner or vigi) or kuru is lying and 1 mafia team of 5 + a 3p SK or something Dude with 2 buddies I could lynch someone else in my place even with one we could try to save me for another night but I am the sole survivor and I can't save myself for shit | ||
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On March 31 2016 11:51 ritoky wrote: i mean i will believe you 100% if the flip says something like "the rebels have been exterminated" in it. but until then, while i think 2 factions makes more sense atm i will harbor my doubt that you're conceding and blowing as much smoke up my ass as possible on your way out. You really want info like that in setup where you won't get notified of a roleblock ever? hahahaha dude | ||
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On March 31 2016 11:58 ritoky wrote: did damdred pull a me? We were the harder team, we went big and we are going down huuuuuge! STORM REBELS RULE | ||
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+ Show Spoiler + ![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/FYZ5VLe.png) | ||
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Chezinu got policy lynched for covering his face and using a voice changer on video mafia lol Poor Chez, they never saw the potential. | ||
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On March 31 2016 12:01 VayneAuthority wrote: i should have read the OP i guess, its super obvious there's 2 teams now. Well that explains rsoultin dying, didnt even consider that. I thought this was a normal game but re-reading its not Two Mafia teams isn't that themed really. The old games could have two Mafia teams. Now you know why Palmar did not want to start before getting enough people  | ||
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Ignoring Palmar, the Lord of Kalmars? Such a folly! | ||
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It's easy. He can only heal Aliens. Aliens are like a sleeper cell scumteam. He fails to heal Humans, but can heal Aliens. | ||
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On March 31 2016 12:38 sicklucker wrote: Theres no way we elminated a faction wtf. talk about luck but I sapose we did if he gave up Hey sicklucker, what do you think Aliens are? Insects, or avians? I am a sucker for bird-aliens, they're rare! | ||
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On March 31 2016 12:42 sicklucker wrote: kura whos the other team? i know your gonna say me. but pretend its not me so I can solve this game We do have low opinion of the other team, but in the act of scum solidarity I am going to keep the info for myself. Besides one, simple bit. That's for later though. So you don't kill me too soon! Hahahahahaha! You know, you let me live today and I tell you all I know during the night, how about that? Avians or insects? | ||
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On March 31 2016 12:54 Damdred wrote: instead of haphazardly highlighting a portion of a post if you read it in its entirety it has a part that says you won't receive information you don't need. it is not in conflict with any rule I guess Mafia does not need to know that their shot was blocked? Oh, did I tell you we blocked some people? Nobody bothered to tell... weird... Wonder why your friends don't fancy sharing such crucial information with you! | ||
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On March 31 2016 12:59 ObiWanShinobi wrote: Well that was underwhelming. Oh, all you need is a correct angle to look at all that! Look at me! I am so amused that we have read the OP and you did not! | ||
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I survive the night, I spill some beans and you're all good. How about that? | ||
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On March 31 2016 13:46 sicklucker wrote: well were obv not gonna let you live if thats what you getting at Well, I am obv not gonna let myself die if thats what you getting at + Show Spoiler + | ||
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On March 31 2016 13:57 sicklucker wrote: Like I was not even going to lynch you today. like wtf It doesn't matter who you want to lynch, it's my responsibility to lynch those, who deserve the gallows! | ||
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On March 31 2016 20:34 sandroba wrote: @koshi if somehow kurumi ends up not lynched due to invention or something and the lynch ends up on 2nd most voted aka damdred your vote will be remembered. Tee-hee! | ||
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I believe to be absolutely safe I need to be the second lynch... I might have done something already and it can't be reverted... Tee-hee! | ||
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On March 31 2016 20:51 Rels wrote: You're funny bro (= can you tell us your team's night actions N1 and N2 ? Done that already, have I not? What is common between young avians and young insects? | ||
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On March 31 2016 20:54 Superbia wrote: Kurumi who you think is your last team mate and/or third party? You are my last team mate, you precious. You have not fully blossomed yet, though! Answer my riddle!!! What do young adults and young insects have in common? | ||
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Darn auto-incorrect. Avians of course! | ||
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On March 31 2016 21:03 Superbia wrote: They both have legs?  Miss. | ||
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On March 31 2016 22:29 Koshi wrote: The only thing Kurumi shoud tell us is who the poisoner is. Or the SK. They might have rb the SK N1. THEY FUCKING RB'ED THE SK N1 Why would I tell you something you already know? I am not trying for town cred here. | ||
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On March 31 2016 22:50 ObiWanShinobi wrote: Afk until tonight. No reason to bother doing work when the lynch is all set. I'll probably still pop in for deadline but that's it. I give you a half of a day to freely discuss what you are going to do next and you are going afk? Guys, we can all agree I've done a better Town job than ObiWanShinobi. | ||
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This game was so easy... But then it all got ruined with the swing on TT and rso dying out of the sudden... Thank heavens our pet monkey Bamboozled is still here! | ||
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On March 31 2016 23:54 Koshi wrote: Tell us who the 3p is Kurumi. Come on! You can do it! But I don't know! I know that one of the players has a very astonishing role name! | ||
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On April 01 2016 00:00 Koshi wrote: I agree with all. SL is mafia or 3p for sure. Superbia is not doing jack shit. Tumble is only mafia if there are 2 teams. VA made mistakes. OWS is an empty suit. ritoky can die. Kill them before me!!! You'll miss me!!! | ||
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On April 01 2016 02:50 Damdred wrote: Honestly I'm torn tbh he's not putting in much effort Story of the most of you | ||
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On April 01 2016 03:05 Shapelog wrote: You know what the number 2 and a fertilizer bag have in common? Do numbers exist in reality or are they mere mind-constructs? | ||
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On April 01 2016 03:25 Tumblewood wrote: Ooh Scott's going to be gone In other news the sun is hot This day is weird for me. I can't argue about the lynch because the next debatable one is in 3 days and that's a long time to argue. OWS, you said ritoky is "probably not mafia". Do you disagree with Rels' case? (this question goes to anyone TRing ritoky) Sure it is weird, you have done pretty much nothing. Don't worry, you are not the only one! | ||
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I mean, kind of | ||
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I'm known for lynching myself when I believe I am the Mafia Traitor. | ||
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Poland6130 Posts
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Kurumi
Poland6130 Posts
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Kurumi
Poland6130 Posts
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Kurumi
Poland6130 Posts
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Kurumi
Poland6130 Posts
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA | ||
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Kurumi
Poland6130 Posts
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