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On December 01 2015 21:45 Fidei86 wrote:
@Rels
I have looked over HTS' posts, and I am more okay with #209 now that I've read it a few times. There's nothing particularly objectionable in there.
At #219, I disagree with her read on the Palmar / Shining interaction. There is something very strange about Shining's progression, and HTS just skates past it.
She then at #224, #237 and #246 goes forward and then back on on Trfel. She asks Shining about people other than Palmar, but noticeably doesn't ask Palmar about people other than Shining.
I know that HTS is very much a fan of Palmar's scum play. I know that she has previously had him as a coach and that she generally speaks highly of him as a player. It is strange to me that she almost specifically avoids interacting with him, or making any comments about him. Honestly, if she can't read him, it seems like the rest of us don't have a chance.
None of the above is a guaranteed scum-tell. But I find it somewhat suspicious. Town HTS nitpicks as well, but I just always get the sense that she is going somewhere with her thoughts. That seems lacking to me.
I don't agree with #219's analysis. I relate to her because I also don't know if what Palmar brings on Shining is really incriminating.
I don't agree with Trfel's back and forth being scum indicative. She asked a question, got told by Trfel she didn't understand correctly his meaning, and backed off.
I don't understand the Shining / Palmar difference. Why is HTS asking Shining his reads and not Palmar is scum indicative ?
I agree with HTS' post lacking something though. She comes into the thread with two scumleans; interacts with the two of them; then leaves without a list or anything.
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I don't like that progression from DoYouHas.
On December 01 2015 08:57 DoYouHas wrote:Show nested quote +On December 01 2015 08:50 Trfel wrote:On December 01 2015 08:47 Damdred wrote:On December 01 2015 08:44 Trfel wrote:
Hm, LightningStrike hasn't posted at all yet. Very suspicious, I would have expected him to be really excited for this game since he hasn't played in a while.
Disformation, why are you only bringing up Damdred's post now, and not right when he posted it? Trfel might be mafia since LS clearly posted in the thread why he wouldn't be here till later. Interesting... Okay, what the heck. First of all, if you think about it for a second, you can probably see what I was trying to do. You may not agree with my method, but you know me well enough to see it. Second, why would does this make me mafia in any way? Like, why does the fact that LightningStrike posted that he wouldn't be here at the start of the game have any bearing on my alignment? I assumed your post was a bit of a joke. Reconsidering with how fast you jumped on the defensive here.
"Trfel you might be scum."
2 posts later:
On December 01 2015 08:57 Damdred wrote:
You are an idiot but you are most likely town.
If you can't explain in a coherent way why I am mafia then obviously I am not.
Damdred: "Trfel is most likely town."
1 post later:
On December 01 2015 09:00 DoYouHas wrote:
I'm pretty happy with Damdred atm. With the exception of one point in his first post I feel like I've got the mind meld going with him... for now.
TLDR: you crazy trfel
"Trfel you're crazy." So Trfel is considered town here.
It doesn't add up.
##Vote DoYouHas
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Rels are you town this game?
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On December 01 2015 22:46 Fidei86 wrote:
Rels are you town this game?
Yes. What make you doubt ?
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On December 01 2015 09:57 Palmar wrote:
I thought Trfel is town because of something. I think I also thought disformation is town, but don't quote me on that.
Would love to know what.
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On December 01 2015 21:45 Fidei86 wrote:
@Rels
I have looked over HTS' posts, and I am more okay with #209 now that I've read it a few times. There's nothing particularly objectionable in there.
At #219, I disagree with her read on the Palmar / Shining interaction. There is something very strange about Shining's progression, and HTS just skates past it.
She then at #224, #237 and #246 goes forward and then back on on Trfel. She asks Shining about people other than Palmar, but noticeably doesn't ask Palmar about people other than Shining.
I know that HTS is very much a fan of Palmar's scum play. I know that she has previously had him as a coach and that she generally speaks highly of him as a player. It is strange to me that she almost specifically avoids interacting with him, or making any comments about him. Honestly, if she can't read him, it seems like the rest of us don't have a chance.
None of the above is a guaranteed scum-tell. But I find it somewhat suspicious. Town HTS nitpicks as well, but I just always get the sense that she is going somewhere with her thoughts. That seems lacking to me.
A bit correction/clarification here.
I think highly of geript's scum play, it is he who I've had as a coach. Not Palmar. I had geript/sicklucker as mafia coaches.
That said, Palmar is a good player as both alignments. A key thing I learnt about Palmar is that you can't meta him easily because he has played many different ways as both alignments. I learnt that the hard way when we mislynched him in Hammertime and in the few ways I've seen him play from the hosting world (Down Under 3) I didn't find him terribly easy to read as town. The manner in which Palmar hit up Shining is, yes, out of the blue but also not outside the realm of town Palmar which is why I waited to see if/how when he broke down the case. It was also not unreasonable for Shining in that regard to say he fails to comment on anything but him.
On my way home early, the lightheadedness is real. And thanks James. I'll vent on Steam about RL if I get the chance.
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I don't understand Damdred's logic concerning Trfel
On December 01 2015 09:52 Damdred wrote:
Its just bad reasoning for why I sort of think Trfel is townish?
Like its really really to early for me to be sold on it, but the way trfel goes defensive and omgus instead of sort of buddying up to me and trying to change my mind that way made me think maybe its just town being dumb.
Damdred: "Trfel is town because he's omgusing me; if he was scum, he would try to buddy me."
On December 01 2015 10:07 Trfel wrote:Life is so frustrating  My communication skills appear to be miserable. I'll try to reread the thread later tonight. Damdred, apologies for using that type of read. Regardless of whether or not I am right, that creates stupid arguments and makes the game miserable. Thanks for being a bit more sensible than I am (regardless of alignment).
Trfel is nice to Damdred.
On December 01 2015 12:43 MoosyDoosy wrote:Show nested quote +On December 01 2015 10:07 Trfel wrote:Life is so frustrating My communication skills appear to be miserable. I'll try to reread the thread later tonight. Damdred, apologies for using that type of read. Regardless of whether or not I am right, that creates stupid arguments and makes the game miserable. Thanks for being a bit more sensible than I am (regardless of alignment). Really? No one pointed this post out? hm...would like to see Palmar and Damdred's take on this.
MD brings up the post.
On December 01 2015 12:47 Damdred wrote:
I'm pretty sure that shinny is town and a horrible lynch tbh.
Onto that trfel post I don't mind it so much, its a bit odd in one respect that if trfel was scum he would want stupid arguments in thread and me tilting not being calm. That's total wifom and not worth talking about.
overall I think its not quite indicative either way but its a good sentiment
Damdred: "It's WIFOM but probably town points because if Trfel was scum, he would attack me to tilt me."
@Damdred: I don't follow your logic between these:
On December 01 2015 09:52 Damdred wrote:
the way trfel goes defensive and omgus instead of sort of buddying up to me and trying to change my mind that way made me think maybe its just town being dumb.
On December 01 2015 12:47 Damdred wrote:
Onto that trfel post I don't mind it so much, its a bit odd in one respect that if trfel was scum he would want stupid arguments in thread and me tilting not being calm. That's total wifom and not worth talking about.
In the first Trfel is attacking you, with bad arguments from your POV since you are town; you say it's town indicative. Then he stops and you say if he was scum he would attack you with stupid argument. Well, that is exactly what he did before his apology from your POV, and actually you townread him for it.
Please explain. Then: is Trfel town right now ? If yes, what would he do if he was scum ? If no, what would he do if he was town ?
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On December 01 2015 23:21 Half the Sky wrote:Show nested quote +On December 01 2015 21:45 Fidei86 wrote:
@Rels
I have looked over HTS' posts, and I am more okay with #209 now that I've read it a few times. There's nothing particularly objectionable in there.
At #219, I disagree with her read on the Palmar / Shining interaction. There is something very strange about Shining's progression, and HTS just skates past it.
She then at #224, #237 and #246 goes forward and then back on on Trfel. She asks Shining about people other than Palmar, but noticeably doesn't ask Palmar about people other than Shining.
I know that HTS is very much a fan of Palmar's scum play. I know that she has previously had him as a coach and that she generally speaks highly of him as a player. It is strange to me that she almost specifically avoids interacting with him, or making any comments about him. Honestly, if she can't read him, it seems like the rest of us don't have a chance.
None of the above is a guaranteed scum-tell. But I find it somewhat suspicious. Town HTS nitpicks as well, but I just always get the sense that she is going somewhere with her thoughts. That seems lacking to me. A bit correction/clarification here. I think highly of geript's scum play, it is he who I've had as a coach. Not Palmar. I had geript/sicklucker as mafia coaches. That said, Palmar is a good player as both alignments. A key thing I learnt about Palmar is that you can't meta him easily because he has played many different ways as both alignments. I learnt that the hard way when we mislynched him in Hammertime and in the few ways I've seen him play from the hosting world (Down Under 3) I didn't find him terribly easy to read as town. The manner in which Palmar hit up Shining is, yes, out of the blue but also not outside the realm of town Palmar which is why I waited to see if/how when he broke down the case. It was also not unreasonable for Shining in that regard to say he fails to comment on anything but him. On my way home early, the lightheadedness is real. And thanks James. I'll vent on Steam about RL if I get the chance.
Ah, sorry for the mistake viz geript. I suppose my point still stands though, to the extent that Palmar is (a) a very experienced player and (b) one you've played with a lot. Your analysis of him makes sense - it is too early to reach definitive conclusions on anyone, let alone strong players with the ability to shift self-meta. But what is your gut instinct on him right now?
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Your missing the point of that post why it is non alignment indicative, he's apologizing but he's not buddying me.
I'll answer all questions in a sec
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On December 01 2015 23:49 Damdred wrote:
Your missing the point of that post why it is non alignment indicative, he's apologizing but he's not buddying me.
I'll answer all questions in a sec
The weird thing is not about the apologizing vs buddying. It's about attacking you with stupid arguments.
Time A: Trfel is attacking with arguments that are wrong and maybe stupid if you're town. You say Trfel is town for attacking you like that.
Time B: You say scum!Trfel would attack you with stupid arguments, so he might be town.
Something is wrong here.
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On December 02 2015 00:06 Rels wrote:Show nested quote +On December 01 2015 23:49 Damdred wrote:
Your missing the point of that post why it is non alignment indicative, he's apologizing but he's not buddying me.
I'll answer all questions in a sec The weird thing is not about the apologizing vs buddying. It's about attacking you with stupid arguments. Time A: Trfel is attacking with arguments that are wrong and maybe stupid if you're town. You say Trfel is town for attacking you like that. Time B: You say scum!Trfel would attack you with stupid arguments, so he might be town. Something is wrong here.
No time b isn't exactly what said at all?
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On December 02 2015 00:12 Damdred wrote:Show nested quote +On December 02 2015 00:06 Rels wrote:On December 01 2015 23:49 Damdred wrote:
Your missing the point of that post why it is non alignment indicative, he's apologizing but he's not buddying me.
I'll answer all questions in a sec The weird thing is not about the apologizing vs buddying. It's about attacking you with stupid arguments. Time A: Trfel is attacking with arguments that are wrong and maybe stupid if you're town. You say Trfel is town for attacking you like that. Time B: You say scum!Trfel would attack you with stupid arguments, so he might be town. Something is wrong here. No time b isn't exactly what said at all?
On December 01 2015 12:47 Damdred wrote:
Onto that trfel post I don't mind it so much, its a bit odd in one respect that if trfel was scum he would want stupid arguments in thread and me tilting not being calm. That's total wifom and not worth talking about.
overall I think its not quite indicative either way but its a good sentiment
That's what I understand of that post. "Trfel's apology is WIFOM, but I think if he was scum he would continue attacking me with stupid arguments to make me tilt." Do I understand wrong ?
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On December 01 2015 18:16 Trfel wrote:LightningStrike:Show nested quote +On December 01 2015 12:18 LightningStrike wrote:
DYH seems townlean he actually tried to comment on stuff that is relevant to the game. Specifically, what comments did he make that were relevant to the game, and why do they make him town? Damdred: (and PLEASE, no one else answer this, don't be stupid...):I'm sorry, I know you don't want to talk about this, but it's driving me insane. Hypothetical scenario 1: Trfel makes a post an hour into a mafia game casting suspicions on Joe for not having posted. Hypothetical scenario 2: Trfel makes a post an hour into a mafia game casting suspicions on Bob for not having posted. Bob said before the game that he would not be present for the first few hours of the game. What difference do you see between these two scenarios?
Palmar seems like obvious town. There's one thing I hope to check eventually, though. I kind of want to lynch The Shining, but that seems like a very bad idea right now. He's put in a bunch of effort (regardless of alignment) on a busy day for him. Most of the problems that I have with his posts are wording, tone, and a bit of consistency, which aren't the most reliable. I do feel that his posting somewhat fits mafia motivation, but I'm nowhere near confident enough to be happy lynching him now. I feel that The Shining's alignment will become very clear with a bit more time. I still think that Damdred is mafia, but I remembered that the past several times I've played with Damdred (both town) I've always thought he was mafia I'm guessing that I have some preconceived notions for what I expect Damdred to do, and whenever he doesn't behave exactly as I would expect him to, I think he's mafia. And it seems to be very hard for me to separate this from mafia motivations... Did anyone else find Damdred's townread of The Shining a bit off? Palmar commented on why the third point is invalid, which I completely agree with.
Of course I see a difference, but what was my play?
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James, right now, I'd say town given how he's broken down the case.
On DYH, definitely odd how looking at timestamps, that progression. I looked at his filter quickly and he responds on things related to Palmar/Shining but didn't reconsider Trfel or at least that reaction in conjunction with something else, since I believe Trfel was up late in skimming. Unless there was reason not to, there was a lack of followup there.
On December 01 2015 11:40 kushm4sta wrote:
Shining looking like a decent d1 lynch I guess. Reasoning is that if Palmer called me 100 percent scum I'd be like lol.
Instead he doth protest too much,
Not sure I like this reaction from kushmasta either. He makes an assumption that Shining would or should react the same way he does. It is why I asked Shining what his other reads were, and they looked reasonable at first glance last night. Also begs the question why he's still voting Rels or why he feels Rels initial push was worse than Shining's.
I'm lying down for a few hours, any more questions, fire away.
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Also didn't state it explicitly but those two above are also scumleans, DYH pending a re-read of the thread.
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On December 02 2015 00:17 Half the Sky wrote:James, right now, I'd say town given how he's broken down the case. On DYH, definitely odd how looking at timestamps, that progression. I looked at his filter quickly and he responds on things related to Palmar/Shining but didn't reconsider Trfel or at least that reaction in conjunction with something else, since I believe Trfel was up late in skimming. Unless there was reason not to, there was a lack of followup there. Show nested quote +On December 01 2015 11:40 kushm4sta wrote:
Shining looking like a decent d1 lynch I guess. Reasoning is that if Palmer called me 100 percent scum I'd be like lol.
Instead he doth protest too much, Not sure I like this reaction from kushmasta either. He makes an assumption that Shining would or should react the same way he does. It is why I asked Shining what his other reads were, and they looked reasonable at first glance last night. Also begs the question why he's still voting Rels or why he feels Rels initial push was worse than Shining's. I'm lying down for a few hours, any more questions, fire away.
Sure. I remember you having a good read on LS. What is your read on him this game ?
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On December 02 2015 00:15 Rels wrote:Show nested quote +On December 02 2015 00:12 Damdred wrote:On December 02 2015 00:06 Rels wrote:On December 01 2015 23:49 Damdred wrote:
Your missing the point of that post why it is non alignment indicative, he's apologizing but he's not buddying me.
I'll answer all questions in a sec The weird thing is not about the apologizing vs buddying. It's about attacking you with stupid arguments. Time A: Trfel is attacking with arguments that are wrong and maybe stupid if you're town. You say Trfel is town for attacking you like that. Time B: You say scum!Trfel would attack you with stupid arguments, so he might be town. Something is wrong here. No time b isn't exactly what said at all? Show nested quote +On December 01 2015 12:47 Damdred wrote:
Onto that trfel post I don't mind it so much, its a bit odd in one respect that if trfel was scum he would want stupid arguments in thread and me tilting not being calm. That's total wifom and not worth talking about.
overall I think its not quite indicative either way but its a good sentiment That's what I understand of that post. "Trfel's apology is WIFOM, but I think if he was scum he would continue attacking me with stupid arguments to make me tilt." Do I understand wrong ?
Partially yes, its all semantics though and shades of the same thing.
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On December 02 2015 00:20 Damdred wrote:Show nested quote +On December 02 2015 00:15 Rels wrote:On December 02 2015 00:12 Damdred wrote:On December 02 2015 00:06 Rels wrote:On December 01 2015 23:49 Damdred wrote:
Your missing the point of that post why it is non alignment indicative, he's apologizing but he's not buddying me.
I'll answer all questions in a sec The weird thing is not about the apologizing vs buddying. It's about attacking you with stupid arguments. Time A: Trfel is attacking with arguments that are wrong and maybe stupid if you're town. You say Trfel is town for attacking you like that. Time B: You say scum!Trfel would attack you with stupid arguments, so he might be town. Something is wrong here. No time b isn't exactly what said at all? On December 01 2015 12:47 Damdred wrote:
Onto that trfel post I don't mind it so much, its a bit odd in one respect that if trfel was scum he would want stupid arguments in thread and me tilting not being calm. That's total wifom and not worth talking about.
overall I think its not quite indicative either way but its a good sentiment That's what I understand of that post. "Trfel's apology is WIFOM, but I think if he was scum he would continue attacking me with stupid arguments to make me tilt." Do I understand wrong ? Partially yes, its all semantics though and shades of the same thing.
You said in that post that scum!Trfel would attack you with stupid arguments. Trfel is still attacking you in his last posts. Do you still think he's town ? Why / why not ?
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disformation, can you read into what Shining posted after your initial scumread of him? Do you still believe that is scum indicative? OMGUS I have seen coming from both alignments, so same question to you that I have for kushm4sta, can you tie in the hard self-defence with anything else? Is it just the hard self-defence or is it his subsequent statements to Palmar that you see as problematic?
Also I can't see where you are trying to go with Damdred v Trfel either, but that was the last post you made before going to bed.
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On December 02 2015 00:19 Rels wrote:Show nested quote +On December 02 2015 00:17 Half the Sky wrote:James, right now, I'd say town given how he's broken down the case. On DYH, definitely odd how looking at timestamps, that progression. I looked at his filter quickly and he responds on things related to Palmar/Shining but didn't reconsider Trfel or at least that reaction in conjunction with something else, since I believe Trfel was up late in skimming. Unless there was reason not to, there was a lack of followup there. On December 01 2015 11:40 kushm4sta wrote:
Shining looking like a decent d1 lynch I guess. Reasoning is that if Palmer called me 100 percent scum I'd be like lol.
Instead he doth protest too much, Not sure I like this reaction from kushmasta either. He makes an assumption that Shining would or should react the same way he does. It is why I asked Shining what his other reads were, and they looked reasonable at first glance last night. Also begs the question why he's still voting Rels or why he feels Rels initial push was worse than Shining's. I'm lying down for a few hours, any more questions, fire away. Sure. I remember you having a good read on LS. What is your read on him this game ?
He didn't post before I went to bed, so hang tight whilst I look through.
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EPT
