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On March 10 2015 09:56 kitaman27 wrote:
I think he should have shot in that situation but not at sandroba since he was almost certainly mafia at that point. If I were him I would have shot into the scummiest ninja suspect. Maybe someone like kurumi or slam where they had a decent chance of being third party, but the game wouldn't end if he was wrong.
This is exactly why I didn't shoot sandroba. Kurumi and Slam were pure scum to me so I didn't shoot them either. But that was the same rationale I used to shoot OWS.
Of course, I think it would be helpful for me going forward if I knew the difference between OWS' town and mafia metas. Or if he even has a meta.
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On March 10 2015 09:56 kitaman27 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 10 2015 09:46 Toadesstern wrote:geript what you wrote about robik was absolutely bullshit: Also the correct play for Robik is to 100% hold his shot. Shooting there was really really stupid. holding his shot was always a 100% lose for Robik because it was endgame before reaching d3 EVEN WITH double mafia kill on d2. It was between shooting mafia and killing the ninja during n2. If he had no idea who the other ninja was he has to shoot mafia to at least try and avoid endgame, even if unlikely. He proably should not have claimed though. I think he should have shot in that situation but not at sandroba since he was almost certainly mafia at that point. If I were him I would have shot into the scummiest ninja suspect. Maybe someone like kurumi or slam where they had a decent chance of being third party, but the game wouldn't end if he was wrong. After the shot, claiming isn't all that bad since the 2nd ninja had already shot. It informs mafia not to shoot him and town not to lynch him.
yeah he could have shot slam/kurumi but that as well comes down to wether or not he has confidence in his reads in the first place. The fact that he didn't opt to give it a last try and did not just go for his best ninja-shot shows that he went for safety before anything else. If that's what he's going for because he's so unsure about his reads that's perfectly fine imo.
The claim is questionable. I thought it's good too, Sandroba disagrees and thinks he should not have claimed. It's a bit tricky. The claim makes it impossible for mafia to claim ninja because anyone claiming ninja after robik's claim would have been lynched for being a fakeclaim from mafia and it makes the town like robik. Has it's ups and downs
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kitaman27
United States9245 Posts
On March 10 2015 09:52 Half the Sky wrote:
Not to mention that Kitaman was dead on about mafia placing their votes early and that town was entirely responsible for the fuckup at the end (myself notwithstanding).
Kita, how did you know not to blame any of us when the rest of us were pointing fingers at each other? God tier reads?
Mostly because we were all in the same boat about seeing them both as scummy and struggling to make a decision. Mafia have a tougher time showing that because their either choosing between mislynch or bus and typically don't go back and forth with their read. Plus you were actually reading the thread, when people like kurumi were afk trolling with the onegu vote.
On March 10 2015 09:57 Half the Sky wrote:Show nested quote +On March 10 2015 09:55 Tubesock wrote:
The other thing I couldn't understand is that you were using mechanics to base your decisions on. Herd mentality/sheeping Kita. As in he was considering mechanics in his decision.
Well after Artanis clarified that the town spirit could buy mafia roles, I think the mechanic argument was dropped.
As a side note, credit to geript for hard defending sandroba with that "meta" read. That was pretty silly sounding. I also found it kinda funny that he was talking about killing off the third party ninjas, yet had earlier talked about how much he read The Mafia mafia were we essentially won by killing off the third parties XD
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On March 10 2015 09:46 Toadesstern wrote:geript what you wrote about robik was absolutely bullshit: Show nested quote +Also the correct play for Robik is to 100% hold his shot. Shooting there was really really stupid. holding his shot was always a 100% lose for Robik because it was endgame before reaching d3 EVEN WITH double mafia kill on d2. It was between shooting mafia and killing the ninja during n2. If he had no idea who the other ninja was he has to shoot mafia to at least try and avoid endgame, even if unlikely. He proably should not have claimed though. Show nested quote +On March 10 2015 09:45 Half the Sky wrote:On March 10 2015 09:32 Toadesstern wrote:
lynch him on d2, not shoot him. Ahhh so you are asking why I lynched SL instead of Sandroba? Thought I explained in obs qt. I could not decide between the two. They both looked bad. [...] so sheep the two townies that conveniently both thought one of the two options you had is the most likely mafia in the entire game, who both conveniently got shot by mafia.
First things first:
Killing mafia during the night lowers KP. I'm pretty sure Artanis commented on this in thread even. So there's no point to do so during D3. Second, let's pretend Onegu (or one of his proposed team) is mafia. Mafia will use the lynch as KP and just kill an obvious towny. Then shooting mafia does him absolutely no good as he will just get endgamed after being shot. Like mafia will just pretend he's not even in the game. Third, let's pretend the 3P gets elected (who will obvious fail it). Then we just kill Robik most likely out of gratitude because it removes extra votes etc. Fourth, if all town gets elected, he knows not to shoot any of them.
Let's also just look at the situation. Pretend he uses his shuriken; his only way of getting the other ninja killed is to do it via lynch (which is essentially the same as shooting them) OR by having mafia put NKs on the other ninja. By killing a mafia (and where 1 mafia is outed), mafia KP is reduced so he's unlikely to get his wish. Like there's literally no situation where I can think of that Robik is in a better spot by specifically shooting Sandroba instead of aiming for 3P. Yes, it helps him not get endgamed sooner, but it doesn't ever actually help him win the game.
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kitaman27
United States9245 Posts
If things hadn't ended due to roles, I think town could have probably gotten a couple more scum based on killing off the afkers who didn't care, but not mislynching batsnacks would have been really tough near endgame and mafia probably would have won out anyways.
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On March 10 2015 09:45 Keirathi wrote:Show nested quote +On March 10 2015 09:38 Tubesock wrote:On March 10 2015 09:22 scott31337 wrote:
Town was crap not seeing the claim Sandroba and how it would work for mafia - it was obvious to me.
I saw it eventually, and I was pushing to kill Sandroba till the spirit mindfucked me. How should I have gotten people to read my posts more? I'd like feedback from you guys if you're willing please. That was really a big clusterfuck. Had I been around, I would have told him not to make that claim. Or at least, nott o make it on Onegu. And I feel like I could have made some good arguments for why it wouldn't make sense for mafia sandro to claim cop there, but by the time I got back in the thread, the whole thing was already over and SL was dead. I feel like a LOT of the reason people were so 99% sure that sandro was scum was just because of SL starting that whole "no one has roles" thing which could have been stopped easily just by pointing to the OP.
The reason was because Sandroba threw the claim and too many town bought. Claim was real but from my PoV there is a very rare change checks Onegu - math.
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What was that spirit msg? that was dirty how many points did it cost
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On March 10 2015 10:07 geript wrote:Show nested quote +On March 10 2015 09:46 Toadesstern wrote:geript what you wrote about robik was absolutely bullshit: Also the correct play for Robik is to 100% hold his shot. Shooting there was really really stupid. holding his shot was always a 100% lose for Robik because it was endgame before reaching d3 EVEN WITH double mafia kill on d2. It was between shooting mafia and killing the ninja during n2. If he had no idea who the other ninja was he has to shoot mafia to at least try and avoid endgame, even if unlikely. He proably should not have claimed though. On March 10 2015 09:45 Half the Sky wrote:On March 10 2015 09:32 Toadesstern wrote:
lynch him on d2, not shoot him. Ahhh so you are asking why I lynched SL instead of Sandroba? Thought I explained in obs qt. I could not decide between the two. They both looked bad. [...] so sheep the two townies that conveniently both thought one of the two options you had is the most likely mafia in the entire game, who both conveniently got shot by mafia. First things first: Killing mafia during the night lowers KP. I'm pretty sure Artanis commented on this in thread even. So there's no point to do so during D3. Second, let's pretend Onegu (or one of his proposed team) is mafia. Mafia will use the lynch as KP and just kill an obvious towny. Then shooting mafia does him absolutely no good as he will just get endgamed after being shot. Like mafia will just pretend he's not even in the game. Third, let's pretend the 3P gets elected (who will obvious fail it). Then we just kill Robik most likely out of gratitude because it removes extra votes etc. Fourth, if all town gets elected, he knows not to shoot any of them. Let's also just look at the situation. Pretend he uses his shuriken; his only way of getting the other ninja killed is to do it via lynch (which is essentially the same as shooting them) OR by having mafia put NKs on the other ninja. By killing a mafia (and where 1 mafia is outed), mafia KP is reduced so he's unlikely to get his wish. Like there's literally no situation where I can think of that Robik is in a better spot by specifically shooting Sandroba instead of aiming for 3P. Yes, it helps him not get endgamed sooner, but it doesn't ever actually help him win the game.
you completly fail to realize that he would not have gotten a lynch on d3 because the game ends before d3 and thus everything you mentioned there is just wrong.
Yes, mafia loses KP once down to 4, that's the reason he shot mafia. To try and get a d3 lynch instead of just losing without getting another lynch.
So no, what he did was the best he could have done (assuming he has no idea who the ninja is). I'm not going to argue wether or not he should have used his shot to shoot ninja, that's obviously best play but holding his shot like you said would have been the worst possible scenario for him.
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On March 10 2015 09:25 kitaman27 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 05 2015 08:49 sicklucker wrote:
Like theres no town roles we all got a green font "town" pm obviously mafia didnt know that. I have to admit I was really influenced by this post on day two. I couldn't imaging a world where a town player would try to cheat like that or where he wouldn't be insta-modkilled, but I suppose it would be unfair to mafia to modkill a cell member and it's my fault for trying to read into mod actions a bit too much. Any chance we could get an action list? Not really clear how the powers were distributed based on the qt. Also pretty funny that everyone was so convinced I was a ninja XD
Ive been scum in like two artanis games I know he always gives fakeclaims. I was just annoyed that so many people were like OMG HES THE COP WE CANT LYNCH HIM. When he was not a cop he had a 1time check
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kitaman27
United States9245 Posts
The problem with ninjas is that if both miss their shots, they both can claim without counterclaim and then you can end up in a kingmaker endgame.
Ninja's with a night check to determine whether or not their target is a ninja probably works out more smoothly so they aren't shooting blind.
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When I saw the mafia team, I knew I was going to have to try and carry early on. Keir doesn't have time to post much but I was hoping for more from him. Sandroba hates playing as mafia. LS can likely be townread and ignored mostly. Kurumi and Slam were both likely to be lynched for basically doing nothing consistently. So I knew I was going to have to snowball it ideally.
I forget who it was (maybe Epiphany) that called me out for exactly what I was doing on D1, but basically he said: Geript is just trying to push people to shoot 24hrs in, Geript is just trying to stir the pot with people, Geript has no non-bullshit points. It was actually really, really correct on all points. My whole point of D1 was to try and get Rayn and Koshi off balance as much as possible. Call them bad; push other points; make them doubt their reads; etc. It was actually really funny because Rayn was also really, really right when he fingered me (kinky) on N1. Who I ever really say was mafia? I had like 3-4 "suspects" that I just kinda rambled about but was far more interested in arguing, bullying and making it hard for people to think about the game (instead of act emotionally). That would never be my town play. Thus why he had to die.
FWIW, I was never drunk this game. Didn't even go to the mexican place; I was just lazy and faked it. I think Toad took that quote out of context. Because Tube was arguing that I was mafia with Sandroba (tin foil hat is right but for the wrong reasons); I was arguing that if that were the case, I would never let Sandro make the play. BTW, it's a really bad play and he shouldn't have made it (in context of his thread presence).
Town spirit really fucked up something fierce.
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kitaman27
United States9245 Posts
On March 10 2015 10:14 sicklucker wrote:Show nested quote +On March 10 2015 09:25 kitaman27 wrote:On March 05 2015 08:49 sicklucker wrote:
Like theres no town roles we all got a green font "town" pm obviously mafia didnt know that. I have to admit I was really influenced by this post on day two. I couldn't imaging a world where a town player would try to cheat like that or where he wouldn't be insta-modkilled, but I suppose it would be unfair to mafia to modkill a cell member and it's my fault for trying to read into mod actions a bit too much. Any chance we could get an action list? Not really clear how the powers were distributed based on the qt. Also pretty funny that everyone was so convinced I was a ninja XD Ive been scum in like two artanis games I know he always gives fakeclaims. I was just annoyed that so many people were like OMG HES THE COP WE CANT LYNCH HIM. When he was not a cop he had a 1time check
Yeah fair enough. Now that hosts are getting better about giving fake claims it's less of an issue. In the past, this was pretty rare though and a player could instantly confirm themselves with either the phrasing, format, time of role PM or sender of role PM.
Sorry for the mislynch 
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I think when two people are pitted against each other (me and tube) but both INSTANTLY jump to the conclusion its fake instead of going after each other then that third party is always mafia.
I think people ignored this fact too much
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On March 10 2015 10:11 Toadesstern wrote:Show nested quote +On March 10 2015 10:07 geript wrote:On March 10 2015 09:46 Toadesstern wrote:geript what you wrote about robik was absolutely bullshit: Also the correct play for Robik is to 100% hold his shot. Shooting there was really really stupid. holding his shot was always a 100% lose for Robik because it was endgame before reaching d3 EVEN WITH double mafia kill on d2. It was between shooting mafia and killing the ninja during n2. If he had no idea who the other ninja was he has to shoot mafia to at least try and avoid endgame, even if unlikely. He proably should not have claimed though. On March 10 2015 09:45 Half the Sky wrote:On March 10 2015 09:32 Toadesstern wrote:
lynch him on d2, not shoot him. Ahhh so you are asking why I lynched SL instead of Sandroba? Thought I explained in obs qt. I could not decide between the two. They both looked bad. [...] so sheep the two townies that conveniently both thought one of the two options you had is the most likely mafia in the entire game, who both conveniently got shot by mafia. First things first: Killing mafia during the night lowers KP. I'm pretty sure Artanis commented on this in thread even. So there's no point to do so during D3. Second, let's pretend Onegu (or one of his proposed team) is mafia. Mafia will use the lynch as KP and just kill an obvious towny. Then shooting mafia does him absolutely no good as he will just get endgamed after being shot. Like mafia will just pretend he's not even in the game. Third, let's pretend the 3P gets elected (who will obvious fail it). Then we just kill Robik most likely out of gratitude because it removes extra votes etc. Fourth, if all town gets elected, he knows not to shoot any of them. Let's also just look at the situation. Pretend he uses his shuriken; his only way of getting the other ninja killed is to do it via lynch (which is essentially the same as shooting them) OR by having mafia put NKs on the other ninja. By killing a mafia (and where 1 mafia is outed), mafia KP is reduced so he's unlikely to get his wish. Like there's literally no situation where I can think of that Robik is in a better spot by specifically shooting Sandroba instead of aiming for 3P. Yes, it helps him not get endgamed sooner, but it doesn't ever actually help him win the game. you completly fail to realize that he would not have gotten a lynch on d3 because the game ends before d3 and thus everything you mentioned there is just wrong. Yes, mafia loses KP once down to 4, that's the reason he shot mafia. To try and get a d3 lynch instead of just losing without getting another lynch. So no, what he did was the best he could have done (assuming he has no idea who the ninja is). I'm not going to argue wether or not he should have used his shot to shoot ninja, that's obviously best play but holding his shot like you said would have been the worst possible scenario for him.
He was alive on D3. Mafia in order to endgame can't win until D4. It was 8v2v6. Killing 1 town doesn't make endgame because he still has his bullet. And if he's going to shoot mafia during the day. Then he should shoot during the night because he might actually remove a Mafia role. Like if you want to argue that he has to shoot mafia with it to prevent endgame, then it's 100% better to shoot that mafia player at night (after roles are given out).
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On March 10 2015 10:16 sicklucker wrote:
I think when two people are pitted against each other (me and tube) but both INSTANTLY jump to the conclusion its fake instead of going after each other then that third party is always mafia.
I think people ignored this fact too much
it wasn't fake at all. It was just not alignment indicative, why should it be? He picked Onegu because there was 0% of Onegu being ever lynched in that Cell. Everyone was townreading him during d1. So dishing out a green check on someone who already was townread but almost everyone should not have mattered at all.
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On March 10 2015 09:52 Tubesock wrote:Show nested quote +On March 10 2015 09:45 Keirathi wrote:On March 10 2015 09:38 Tubesock wrote:On March 10 2015 09:22 scott31337 wrote:
Town was crap not seeing the claim Sandroba and how it would work for mafia - it was obvious to me.
I saw it eventually, and I was pushing to kill Sandroba till the spirit mindfucked me. How should I have gotten people to read my posts more? I'd like feedback from you guys if you're willing please. That was really a big clusterfuck. Had I been around, I would have told him not to make that claim. Or at least, nott o make it on Onegu. And I feel like I could have made some good arguments for why it wouldn't make sense for mafia sandro to claim cop there, but by the time I got back in the thread, the whole thing was already over and SL was dead. I feel like a LOT of the reason people were so 99% sure that sandro was scum was just because of SL starting that whole "no one has roles" thing which could have been stopped easily just by pointing to the OP. See, I thought people were towning Sandroba for getting the cop check. It was basically Sicklucker vs me. And no one was believing what I was saying that Sandroba would have HUGE motive to claim in his position. But I didn't think anyone was listening, except for Geript.
Ya bro we had the right logic no one listened this is life gg wp
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kitaman27
United States9245 Posts
Just curious, did sandroba actually receive a cop check?
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On March 10 2015 09:55 Half the Sky wrote:Yes, he was. And geript coached him to play exactly like his town meta. No one was the wiser.
acualy judging from the scum qt Ls didnt listen to geript. But that was briliant because I asumed scum ls would sheep geript and he tricked us all!
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I'm back I had a Vig Shot to use that's why it endgamed lol. I played so bad as Mafia and couldn't do much posting because I would look terrible T_T Any tips for me as Mafia?
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On March 10 2015 10:16 sicklucker wrote:
I think when two people are pitted against each other (me and tube) but both INSTANTLY jump to the conclusion its fake instead of going after each other then that third party is always mafia.
I think people ignored this fact too much
Not really. Like if he's town and has a green check on Onegu what's he supposed to do there? Keep silent? It's not like you or Tube would likely react to it any differently as I think you were both already on the "let's kill Sandroba" plan. Like that's really dumb. The reason why you got lynched wasn't because of the play. It's 100% because you didn't make actual arguments against Sandroba. Like everyone was all "WTF, Geript's making a case on why Sandroba is mafia and calling him town." And yah, I had to find very tiny discrepancies to point out because you know, he was totes mcgoats mafia. Rather you guys were all like, "This claim is totally bogus. Rayn/Toad said to kill Sandroba. That guy's totally scum. He's probably greenchecking his partner Onegu. etc." Like that isn't going to convince anyone. Plus, people like lynching because that's pretty much what you do as mafia. You try and do as little as possible to not get lynched even if you have to bus.
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EPT
