Imperial Mafia
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Eden1892
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Eden1892
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well man when you put it that way /in i'm in another game at the same time (format unknown but i believe it to be a 9p micro with bizarre roles), is this going to be a problem | ||
Eden1892
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On December 28 2014 09:34 Fecalfeast wrote: needs at least 2 serial killers Fire this guy from the balance committee | ||
Eden1892
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Ex have millers as possible role but not godfathers so inno checks are 100% but guilty checks aren't. Or vice versa | ||
Eden1892
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On December 28 2014 13:49 ObiWanShinobi wrote: Eh. i miss u bby | ||
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On December 31 2014 14:19 Damdred wrote: Also not really claiming scum just bad humor baby why did you post this? | ||
Eden1892
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On December 31 2014 14:27 Damdred wrote: cause of mine and geripts history where he takes mee a bit to serious at points. Like he told me to post seals one time and I did and he went a bit nuts was a bit funny. I think he was scum that game but I think he would do the same as town. uhh that's odd but i guess i'll allow it? just seems like you're trying to justify behavior which need not be | ||
Eden1892
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On December 31 2014 15:06 DoctorHelvetica wrote:I believe strongly in Lynch All Liars. i don't, why do you? i feel like i can just look at a particular situation and decide for myself if someone who was caught lying was town and trying too hard to do something cool or if they're mafia. and i'm putting all my votes on my best mafia read not on any policy. On December 31 2014 15:06 DoctorHelvetica wrote:I will also more or less ignore every single "town" plan involving mass claims, trying to rig/game the setup, it's way too hard to get everyone on the same page and it has never ever worked in my experience. just peeking at the setup real quick i'm almost positive this isn't going to be an issue, not seeing anything to game On December 31 2014 15:06 DoctorHelvetica wrote:How does everyone feel about lurking players? Lower than expected activity can indicate blue just as much as scum. I like when DTs focus their checks on the lurkers rather than players who are active. There isn't a great in thread way to deal with lurkers. If I analyse lurkers post history at all, I usually wait until Day 2 or 3, that's enough time for the people who are lurking for a reason to make themselves more apparent I think. not to be rude but this all seems obvious to the point of fluff... i rather just put all my votes on best mafia read and attempt to discern b/t town lurkers and mafia lurkers as the game goes along instead of making activity a point of interest. i don't worry about them until i get a vote record unless i'm really stumped verdict: Doc's post seems stiff and awkwardly timed, and I feel like most of the policy discussion that might ensue from this won't really get anywhere, but it beats chasing people up trees for opening game banter. I guess I like Doc as town for now | ||
Eden1892
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On December 31 2014 15:14 DoctorHelvetica wrote: Uh, I don't want to make your dick hard. I don't think anything about anyone yet. On December 31 2014 15:07 DoctorHelvetica wrote: That being said I'd like to show everyone my spreadsheet ranking Day 1 joke posts from least to most scummy. what's up with the second post here though? seems like if you have opinions about which posts are suspicious you have opinions about which people are suspicious. non? | ||
Eden1892
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and i mean yeah, "intense scrutiny and questioning" sure, but are you afraid people are actually NOT going to do this? this almost seems like an empty statement | ||
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On December 31 2014 15:24 DoctorHelvetica wrote: Seems like you take everything literally, we're gonna have problems if you waste your time with shit like this. just checking, it seemed like a joke but i didn't want to supply that answer in case it weren't~ sure, i'm not sure what you meant by "shut down this line" in the previous part of the post btw so if you want a reply to that please clarify for my addled brain as for why i read it townie, like i said, it seemed like an effort to get discussion somewhere besides early-game banter, which imo wasn't going anywhere. i followed up on the post because even if the object-level discussion ends up being pretty pointless, i can get some possibly useful meta-level reads from it - and hey, maybe it is going somewhere and i miss it, y'know? | ||
Eden1892
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On December 31 2014 15:44 geript wrote: By shut it down, I mean shut down any further discussion on useless policy. Nobody needs to find policy to find discussion. The problem with your "townread" is that your reasons for finding him town are complete bullshit. That post is a throwaway post that I could recite to newbies to "get discussion going" as either alignment and potentially useful dependent on how it's driven and moved (even moreso to scum imo not that it matters). There actually were things to be talked about in the thread already (my townread on Damdred, the ??? on sicklucker who IIRC also made a passing townread on Damdred, Robik not posting anything while making a few posts, etc.). It's odd that you comment that his post was stiff and awkwardly timed, two bad reasons that people's posts are often called scummy for and then settle on a bad reason to call him town for it. As for meta reads, what type of meta reads do you expect will lead to any sort of meaningful read off of policy discussion? I don't think they're bullshit, not sure what else to tell you there. I think we disagree about the value of what you were talking about before, which is leading to our divergent views on this particular post; I got nothing out of what had happened to that point and briefly dug into the only thing that was interesting to me, so where you saw things to be discussed, I didn't. Sorry for using the term "meta-level," I'm not referring to meta reads. What I meant is that even if people are talking about policy or jokes or whatever and the actual objects of that discussion aren't going anywhere, you can dig into other players' thought processes and perhaps get a read on them despite that, in which case it's hard to say the discussion was useless. As an example I'm bothered by this more recent post from the Doc: On December 31 2014 15:37 DoctorHelvetica wrote: Yeah, I do fear that sadly enough. Ov course , in the timeframe of a single game it doesn't mean anything. I'm just talking general meta and from when I did most of my playing (a while ago) it was v eady to get away with fakeclaims as scum (ive been scum many times and done it myself many times) or set up weird vuses (buses) in themed games and sfuff (stuff). When towns in general are lax about that stuff (as i have once known them to be) i don't worry so much if i roll scum. Townies who lie just throw a wrench into everything by creatinf (creatinf /€ fuck) we Creating mislynch opportunities. Sorry for the typos amd weird formatting. Did it again. Can't backspace on my mobile for some reason, really abboying annoying seeing as I have enormous thumbs. And the thought process behind it. I don't get why a townie would already be worried about people lying and other people not at all questioning it. It seems like something I'd expect a newer player to say without really realizing that it's not saying anything, except that as I understand it Doc isn't a new player. It's odd to me that he's taking an impression about the meta-environment from months ago and extrapolating concerns about it in the here and now, particularly since that impression contradicts my own. It comes off as just saying stuff to say stuff. And the fact that he had this explanation behinds it takes it from, as you called it, geript, "a throwaway post that I could recite to newbies to "get discussion going" as either alignment" to being slightly suspicious to me, because the explanation attempts to justify it as genuinely-held concerns about the meta-environment instead of as a generic post to kickstart discussion, concerns which I don't believe would be genuinely held. | ||
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On December 31 2014 16:05 DoctorHelvetica wrote: You seem like youre gonna get stuck in a way of playing where you feel that any unreasonable or perplexing behavuor warrants suspicion. Not planning on it, guess we'll see. Not a lot going on right now imo. It just seems to me that if you were that bothered about a meta-environment from your last experience months ago, you might check a couple recent games to see if the meta-environment is the same, y'know? | ||
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On December 31 2014 16:18 DoctorHelvetica wrote: @Eden - I'm not much good at anything besides reading in between the lines and bullying (apprentice of Ace style), but when I start to see the things I understand and that jump out of me I really stick to it. I do think you're town and that since you seem to be pretty diligent and detailed I feel good about what you might be able to add or pick out of my cases later. I'm actually pissed I didn't roll scum in this game. I started playing mafia as scum in like 8 straight games and then really got it again. I do look at meta if I'm really suspicious of someone or can't figure out their behavior. It's too much of a pain in the ass to do if I'm not gonna really make use of it Lemme revisit this later, the appeals to me in here are setting off alarms but I can't tell if I'm being unfair/suffering from confirmation bias or if there's something there. I'll rattle off a brief idea of the problems and see if I still agree with it on a later read / if anyone else has anything to say about it. It makes me feel like I'm being buddied but again, I'm not sure I'm being fair. - The appeal both to my perceived innocence and alleged attention to detail and diligence bother me in a site meta-environment where, broadly speaking, aggressive asshole = town and not-aggressive-asshole = mafia. I actually feel really bad calling this out because I really would like to believe Doc is town and just not running with that meta-environment (which I would love, because I think it's not a fun meta-environment), but based on my past experiences here, these kinds of appeals are more likely to come from mafia than town than chance suggests. - Addendum to the above, my rough recollection of Ace is that he practically wrote the heuristic I mentioned above with his harsh but effective town plan, so it's (again?) incongruous to me that Doc plays a "read between the lines, bullying" game and then is nice and relatively uncritical of me in this post. - The appeals shifted toward something about being mad about not rolling scum that I swear I've only ever heard mafia say. Maybe my past experience is broken but it just feels off. | ||
Eden1892
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On December 31 2014 16:22 ritoky wrote: i think he made a joke that has 0 alignment indicative information in it. but i am not the one spouting crap about policy lynching liars and shitters. you are, yet you choose not to follow through on that. ritoky, where's this going? My recollection of you from our newbie game as an insightful player who catches crucial details and asks on-point questions isn't matching up with what I'm seeing unfold before me right now. You claim to have caught Doc lying by not pursuing a policy lynch on a joke. Do you think this actually makes him mafia? | ||
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On December 31 2014 16:55 geript wrote: I'm pretty sure that I've been the first person to discuss lurker lynches in almost all of my games (a large majority of which are town). 86% of your statistic is bullshit. Ooh, my turn. Earlier, geript, you had some issues with my posting about Doc's policy discussion instead of about your reads, and had criticized my choice of focus on Doc's policy discussion. Now that ritoky, sicklurker(?) and I have, through different avenues of discussion, concluded that Doc is suspicious, you chose to reenter the thread to... critique a statistic tied to a minor point against Doc. Of the recent developments surrounding Doc in the thread right now, why is this your choice of focus? It strikes me as self-evidently going nowhere. | ||
Eden1892
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On December 31 2014 17:06 TheChyz wrote: Hello all. Currently I don't like the direction that dr.H and ritoky are going. Basically I just see it as dr.H doing something not alignment indicative (someone always talks about policy lynches :/ ) and now ritoky is just trying to either prove that dr.H is scum or (my most probably guess) is he just wants to get an early acknowledgement of dominance by trying to force dr.H into admitting he did not follow his own policy (which most people don't follow anyway). I don't see a reason why ritoky would push this so far without any agenda. @ritoky lets move onto something a bit more important than trying to prove your dick is bigger than dr.H's. If there is anything substantial you have then go ahead, but currently your just being more of a filter spammer than anything. this post also gives me the heebie jeebies. I can understand not liking ritoky's choice to push on the Doc's joke but he comes to an end conclusion that other posters did as well and for not terrible reasons. Entering the thread, declaring that push a dick-measuring contest and then basically tone-policing ritoky's aggression without providing any original insight is really bothersome. (And this is even coming from someone who thought about asking ritoky et al to tone it down a bit myself, but I figured the smarter thing to do was to play my game and not spend posts trying to criticize the way others play theirs.) Chyz looks suspicious to me for this, he's clearly paying enough attention to have opinions but so far he's elected only to comment on things that don't really matter (imo) and didn't even address the strongest parts of those things he did comment on. | ||
Eden1892
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he = ritoky there, sorry pronouns r hard mkay | ||
Eden1892
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##VOTE: TheChyz | ||
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On December 31 2014 17:16 geript wrote: Because I hate it when people who have literally been useless try to throw out things that are wildly inaccurate to try and make a point. Especially when it's something I hold sacred like statistics. As for ritoky, no clue. I can't really read him. I think he was scum in an abortion of a game. I'll check later when I meta sicklucker. err... ok I guess. I get pet peeves/causes or whatever but I don't really see ritoky as useless. Have you anything else to add? | ||
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On December 31 2014 16:33 Eden1892 wrote: Lemme revisit this later, the appeals to me in here are setting off alarms but I can't tell if I'm being unfair/suffering from confirmation bias or if there's something there. I'll rattle off a brief idea of the problems and see if I still agree with it on a later read / if anyone else has anything to say about it. It makes me feel like I'm being buddied but again, I'm not sure I'm being fair. - The appeal both to my perceived innocence and alleged attention to detail and diligence bother me in a site meta-environment where, broadly speaking, aggressive asshole = town and not-aggressive-asshole = mafia. I actually feel really bad calling this out because I really would like to believe Doc is town and just not running with that meta-environment (which I would love, because I think it's not a fun meta-environment), but based on my past experiences here, these kinds of appeals are more likely to come from mafia than town than chance suggests. - Addendum to the above, my rough recollection of Ace is that he practically wrote the heuristic I mentioned above with his harsh but effective town plan, so it's (again?) incongruous to me that Doc plays a "read between the lines, bullying" game and then is nice and relatively uncritical of me in this post. - The appeals shifted toward something about being mad about not rolling scum that I swear I've only ever heard mafia say. Maybe my past experience is broken but it just feels off. update: I reread this post after going to sleep and it still bothers me for ^reasons. Doc immediately going super-hard on Chyz felt opportunistic; if Chyz is town then his intro post was perfect fodder for mafia under suspicion to go after to look town. I'm not really sure what Koshi et al see in Chyz to make him town. I feel fairly confident saying one of Doc or Chyz is mafia. Gonna catch up on the rest of the thread and then probs question Chyz. | ||
Eden1892
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On December 31 2014 23:12 Koshi wrote: I like his Eden read, it is thought out, shows he is following the thread. I don't really see how you conclude this. His only justification for it is "defensive wording in each post where there always seems to be some idea of not jumpin on somebody too strongly." That just shows that Chyz saw a couple posts of mine. There's no discussion of the actual content of my post, nor is there discussion of anything else except ritoky going after Doc. In no sense beyond the superficial has Chyz shown he's following the thread at the time you posted this; anyone under pressure could have read one of my posts, found that to latch onto and thrown it out without actually needing to have considered the game state much. Why do you conclude his read was thought out? It almost looks fabricated. | ||
Eden1892
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On January 01 2015 00:40 Koshi wrote: You say that the discussion was stupid, TheChyz stopped (or attempted) to stop the argument and steer the thread into another direction. Why would mafia do this? But that's the problem. He didn't actually do the latter part. He just entered the thread to say "hey this is a stupid argument, stop having it" without actually taking the discussion in a different direction. I feel like your posts have been giving Chyz a lot more credit than he's actually earned and it's starting to bother me. | ||
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On January 01 2015 02:37 DoctorHelvetica wrote: I dont wanna type the bbcode on my phone, it's annoying. That is the only reason. | ||
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On January 01 2015 02:42 DoctorHelvetica wrote: Earlier he doesnt think it important enough to even offer his "largest scumread" when he can just lurk and tell.other players how they arent being useful this is a really good point that should make anyone saying "Chyz is town for trying to stop a stupid argument" think. If you believe his story then, he would have been sitting on a point no one else had made up until then. If you're a townie looking to move discussion away from what you feel is a bad line of discussion and you have a unique top suspect, why wouldn't you post that in the same post and why would it take someone else pushing you to do something to say it? | ||
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http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/474082-imperial-mafia?page=18#344 You'll see that aside from ritoky joking about a spreadsheet the three posts, in consecutive order, are: - ritoky saying he's tunnelling too hard and was going to try to stop - Chyz saying the argument isn't going anywhere and needs to stop - Doc saying he gets where the argument comes from and explaining himself, which became the last post of the argument The way Koshi keeps framing Chyz's post you would think Chyz came in while it was at full swing and tried to defuse it. No, he comes in right at the very end of it, after it had died down, and criticizes it for going nowhere. I think that's why it seemed so awkwardly-timed earlier, because my immediate thought in my head was "Uh... ok... they stopped arguing about it already... why is that your big thing to talk about right now?" | ||
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I get this bad feeling about Koshi too but I need to reread and make sure I'm not just being a donkey and suspecting someone for not seeing eye-to-eye with me. | ||
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On January 01 2015 02:57 justanothertownie wrote: I ninjaed you multiple times in heavyweight III :p Lol. Yeah and my town game has gone into a tailspin ever since. You wouldn't believe how many townies have ninja'd me that I've mislynched for "trying to play me" after that game. I finally made up my mind just to trust people who ninja me multiple times and assume that mafia won't do it often enough to be worth suspecting people over, not sure how well it'll work (first game since that decision) but I'm hoping it will. While you're here jat can you remind me of your opinion on Chyz? I forget it | ||
Eden1892
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On January 01 2015 03:24 Koshi wrote: I am the biggest believer in Chyz his innocence. I should get the honors. You should answer my questions/posts then please, because I don't see it. [adding extra quote tag to avoid wall-o-text] | ||
Eden1892
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On January 01 2015 03:52 TheChyz wrote: I'm having some trouble with koshi after thinking it some. Basically once koshi started defending me, thats mostly all that koshi has contributed to the thread. Just talks about me being town and dr.H being wrong in his read. Like the first time seeing it it felt fine but the longer this game goes, that is all that koshi has been really on. Nothing much else apart from saying "this person is fine, these people are on my scum list, etc". I haven't really felt like I have gotten anything from koshi. And his read on me just seems to good to not have a decent enough read on somebody else. Again I don't get why a scum would poke their head out this early to defend a lynch that doesn't have traction yet but the longer he does it the more it seems like koshi just knows im town but hasn't added too much to the thread other than that. Just seems suspicious to me. I really like this post for town. You know the old tell about forgiving your attacker that mafia tend to do, because they know the person attacking them is right and they would rather defuse the threat with kindness and cordiality instead of trying to engage someone they know is right? It's the opposite here. I feel like attacking your forgiver is a good town tell. Mafia don't turn around and get after people who are defending them, and doubly so if they're actually under some significant suspicion. Mafia do numbers-crunching and try to see how many people they can keep on their side and don't try to attack people defending them to gain town credit. It just doesn't make sense. I feel better about Chyz for this post | ||
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JAT, Doc, etc., thoughts on geript? His filter looks like a lot of posting for its own sake and I don't get the sense he's trying to find mafia. | ||
Eden1892
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Currently I'm cool with a geript or Chyz lynch. I guess I'll need to read Lazermonkey and see what the fuss was about too. I kinda miss Palmar and marv and a little bit of Arty (although he's posted a bit), their names and JAT made me interested in the first place and JAT's the only one doing anything so far. | ||
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On January 01 2015 06:23 DoctorHelvetica wrote: Can you explain what about TheChyz's post makes you feel so strongly that he is town? It's just noncommittal read at a time when the whole thread was giving Koshi heat. Just looks like blending in to me. He wasn't like that in his town game. idk if this was @me or not but since it pretty much describes what I did I'll assume it is. I liked the fact that Chyz was, with pressure coming from other people, gutsy enough to get after the one person strongly defending him the whole way. Mafia just don't attack their defenders. But I'm kinda feeling like Koshi doesn't actually care that much, and if he's not really defending Chyz that hard in the end then mafia!Chyz doesn't have that same reservation about attacking Koshi. | ||
Eden1892
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On January 01 2015 06:27 DoctorHelvetica wrote: Good. You will soon realize his read on lazermonkey was also fabricated bullshit and total reaching. Check out Chyz's last game where he was town. Huge difference in confidence tone and voting behavior. Have not read yet beyond skimming but I already agree with you re: difference in presentation b/t last game and this one. Lemme finish rereading and decide how I feel about Chyz's post about Koshi, but you've probably earned my vote for Chyz back. | ||
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On January 01 2015 07:35 geript wrote: Eden and Kelsier are at the top of my lynch list. do you ever intend to expound upon these thoughts as I've asked you to do earlier in the thread? | ||
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I only read his filter so I don't know the context of his posts but I don't really see anything wrong with that he's doing. | ||
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On January 02 2015 02:03 Koshi wrote: Because I don't even understand how geript can think it. You don't understand how geript can suspect me? | ||
Eden1892
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Lol boss busted me @ work probs no phone for a while. Pz | ||
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I'm also a little worried about geript lynch being too easy, idk if that will actually stay my vote though. | ||
Eden1892
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The problem is I still don't really know who he wants to kill. He posted a big list running through everyone in the game, concluding with a group of about six mafia/mafia-leans, and then he doesn't ever push any of them since. He's even said a couple of times something to the effect of "just go back and read me when I flip town," but I don't even know what I would go back to read, because he posted what would be a big nice convenient list to read and then didn't act on it in any meaningful way. I think I still want to kill him, and I'm moving my vote there for now. I don't think I'm going to get fully caught up before deadline, so I'll try to look at the other possible lynches (who are they, by the way? seems like geript, Chyz, Lazermonkey and Vivax are the names that are coming up) and see which one I want the most. Right now it's geript but I haven't read the other guys one last time yet. | ||
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On January 02 2015 12:36 Eden1892 wrote: I'm not really sure what to do with geript. He's started trying, which increases the chances of him being town; it can make sense for a caught mafia to give up but never really does for a townie being mislynched, so the fact that he's trying to avoid getting killed is probably good all else being the same. ...meanwhile, Chyz apparently decided to self-vote and leave. Ugh. Forget I said this, I was reading Chyz town until he did that and him doing it reads frustrated town rather than mafia. I can't really see why a mafia would bother posting a huge reads list that would just leave his teammates at risk of getting caught by association if he's going to self-vote. You self-vote as mafia to end the day quicker and get people complacent with that vote, not to give them a road map for how to find your team. As for why, I go back to that large case Chyz wrote on Lazermonkey and it rings so genuine to me. Maybe I'm just a sucker for his opening line about excessive emotional investment but I feel like it would take a stone cold liar to throw something like that out as mafia just to excuse your previous play. I know there's nothing that actually stops you from doing that as mafia, but I figure if you're making up an excuse for your previous absence, you're going to pick something that sounds plausible, which means the excuse you're going to give is deliberate and something you've thought about. Something about claiming you were "too emotionally invested for my own health" seems... out of bounds, you know? Hopefully this makes sense to someone else cause I think it makes perfect sense to me but I can't really find the words. Just seems like lying about your emotional well-being is a shitty thing to do to win a game. And I'm gonna admit I didn't actually read the case on Lazermonkey beyond recognizing that it was one of those classic confirmation bias supertrains that everybody who's ever played town enough times has taken themselves on. And the emotional-investment thing kinda proved itself decisively when he self-voted, didn't it. I'm not killing Chyz today and I really recommend others don't. I really wish he hadn't self-voted but I can't see how the sequence of posts of his at the end was from a mafia POV. | ||
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On January 01 2015 06:13 batsnacks wrote: I think robik is mafia. Here is my lame meta read: Town robik is usually enthusiastic about playing at the start of games and is quick to form reads and call people out. He's usually really loud about the fact that he's town (as both alignments) and says it over and over again "I'm town you suck." He did that a little bit this game. Scum robik, i.e. Robik in this game, is obviously in the thread and is responding when his name gets called, but he lacks reads and is not passionate about solving people's alignments. He is only passionate about talking about him. And this scummy too: ##vote: IAmRobik This post is strange, because he says that Robik is deviating from both his normal town and normal mafia behavior, and thus that makes him mafia. I guess the argument is that there's greater deviation from his normal town game than from his normal mafia game, but batsnacks, in making a self-professed "lame meta read," expressly notes that Robik is deviating from both of his normal games. This bothers me because it doesn't match my thought process if I'm in batsnacks' shoes: 1. If someone is deviating from both their normal town game and normal mafia game, my first thought is that there must be extenuating circumstances responsible for the deviation. Deliberate change in play style, extended absence due to work, or a holiday, like, say, Iunno, New Year's Eve... these would be where I'd look for explanations, not "Robik is mafia." 2. Perhaps more telling, but if I find myself deciding my read on someone is lame, I don't bring it up and I certainly don't put my vote down for them. I keep looking. Tellingly, he never pushes the Robik lynch and never really brings it up in subsequent posts. batsnacks then later proposes that Chyz might have been milking his Koshi read for town credit, ignoring the fact that Chyz's read on Koshi changed in the two instances batsnacks cites to support it. This "contribution" is senseless to me. On January 01 2015 06:44 batsnacks wrote: Mr DrH what do you think about this: First TheChyz posts this: And he earned town points for it: Then later he posts this: And gets more town points: Do you think TheChyz is intentionally rehashing the koshi read to gain town points? He never actually does anything with this, either. Not only is the question fundamentally flawed, it doesn't seem to be going anywhere, and he isn't really doing anything with it. He talks some more about it but again, it doesn't really get to the conclusion "lynch Chyz" or anything. Even if batsnacks didn't horribly misinterpret what Chyz said, this wouldn't be the tenth most incriminating case on Chyz in this thread even if we took out the cases DoctorHelvetica made. The last page of batsnacks' filter seems similarly unproductive and unhelpful. A "fuck you Chyz" and a vote, presumably for self-voting, which, as I've already argued, probably shouldn't be there because Chyz seems town. Some random mechanics/roles stuff that doesn't really matter. A couple of general "is anybody there?" type questions and, notably, no real effort to push the Lazermonkey read he was so hard on earlier. I don't get the sense this guy cares about who we kill. Maybe it's time we make him care. ##UNVOTE: geript ##VOTE: batsnacks | ||
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On January 02 2015 13:13 batsnacks wrote: I already said I'm not unvoting chyz because if he is mafia and self voting and getting let off the hook for it, it's going to piss me off. So my vote is staying. If thechyz hadn't self voted I probably wouldn't have voted him. Also no one is voting lazermonkey or robik, the two people I wanted to lynch originally, so of course I'm not going to keep my vote there. Wait, so if he hadn't self-voted you wouldn't vote him. But you're voting him because you won't let a self-voting mafia off the hook? Does that mean you think he's mafia and weren't voting him because ??? or does that mean you don't think he's mafia but are voting him now because ??? And the point isn't that no one is voting Lazermonkey or Robik. The point is you made both reads with plenty of time to push them, so if you thought they were mafia, why didn't you try to develop a case people would vote for? Why leave them as weak and easily-ignored as they were? | ||
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On January 02 2015 13:17 batsnacks wrote: Yes, if he hadn't self voted that probably wouldn't be where my vote is. And I posted as often and as much as I could. You didn't answer the first question. Do you or do you not think Chyz is mafia? From the sounds of it you're finding an excuse to policy-vote Chyz without actually telling me what you think about his alignment. And ok, fine, I get that, you can see my filter's not exactly long this game either. But the content of your posts is really lacking if you've been under time constraints. Someone reading this should compare my filter to batsnacks, because I've also been under time constraints like he apparently has, and the difference in our content is substantial. I can say with certainty, being in the same constraint in the same game, that I would be more focused on making my posts and votes count. | ||
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On January 02 2015 13:37 batsnacks wrote: You gonna unvote me if I claim scum, vote myself, and leave the thread? Because that's what got thechyz off the hook. How do you read Chyz's 3rd to last and last posts -- you know, the one where he said he was too emotionally invested in the game for his own health and the one where he ragequit -- and not obviously see that what he did has nothing to do with his alignment? You're not even trying at this point. Boy bye | ||
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Something like that. You get it. Please stay on batsnacks. It is a much better vote. We can smoke out geript when we have more time to figure out wtf he's doing. Vote for the guy who's suspicious not for the guy who did one weird unexplained thing please. | ||
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On January 02 2015 13:53 justanothertownie wrote: But there is no reason for geript to do that. He called marv 100 % mafia. Why isn't he voting him if he wastes his vote anyways? Maybe he has a Vivax case he's making near the end and hasn't posted it yet? (I've been waiting for this to drop actually) Whatever it is I really do not want to lose the batsnacks lynch. I think my case on batsnacks is much better than "I don't get what geript's vote is doing so I want to kill him" | ||
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On January 02 2015 13:56 Damdred wrote: we should stick this out, an unexplained vote we can figure out during night and next cycle. +1 | ||
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On January 02 2015 13:57 justanothertownie wrote: How are you all so confident now but didn't do jackshit to push batsnacks earlier? I didn't read batsnacks until it was suggested to me. shrug | ||
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On January 02 2015 14:25 sicklucker wrote: More importantly why didnt you pay attention and notice you wasted your vote? This, basically. I have a hard time believing that geript didn't realize what he was doing. His vote came after batsnacks took the lead for good. geript is my kill for tomorrow until further notice. | ||
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these were the ones that bothered me a bit On January 02 2015 13:52 sicklucker wrote: This is so weird like. its basically a 5-5 or 4-5 tie between them now and neither wants to vote the other. Did we find 2 mafia boys? On January 02 2015 13:59 sicklucker wrote: I feel like the vote is probably 6 towns leggo I don't have any great reason to think they're per se suspicious or anything but I got a bad vibe from them | ||
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On January 02 2015 15:39 sicklucker wrote: And edins trying to bury me so from my perspective hes the most likely mafia of the bunch gonna have to look at him later. I'm not trying to do anything of the sort. Jumpy much? | ||
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First thing I want to look at is outliers, because I think they tend to be easier to figure out. The three wagons at end of day were Chyz, geript and batsnacks, so all other voters are defined as outliers here. They are: Superbia ritoky Koshi geript Additionally the nonvoting RebirthOfLegend can go here. Superbia: Has all of two posts in the game, neither of any substance. Says ritoky claimed mafia with their big reads post without explaining why, votes ritoky and then bails for the rest of the day, not bothering to convince anyone to vote for ritoky. Ignores JAT asking for an explanation, no one else really seems to care either way. I don't like this. For all I can derive from Superbia's thought process from this vote, this might as well be a dice roll vote. There's nothing here for me to make any sense of. If Superbia is town and believes ritoky is mafia then why not try to convince anyone to kill ritoky? And if Superbia doesn't then why completely abandon the thread and not bother to try to figure out who is mafia? ritoky: After the vote (which came between his big reads list post and his next post itt), ritoky only brings up the case on sicklucker once... when sicklucker questions him on it. Spends most of the day being engaged in other discussions and feeling out other players for their direction, but doesn't push the case on sicklucker. And it's not even not pushing it because of a change of heart or anything, as far as I can see. The case is just dropped altogether without any mention, like it never existed. After talking to sicklucker there's only one passing reference to the suspicion at all (responding to GlowingBear and saying they were "on the same page" concerning, among others, sicklucker). This is really suspicious considering how aggressively ritoky pushed early in the game. Even allowing for a change in posting style due to time constraints resulting from ER work, you figure that if ritoky is still sure about the read on sicklucker that there'd be some effort to push it. And ritoky can't even claim to have had a change of heart, because sometime during ritoky's last burst of activity, (s)he posted an updated vote count including the vote for sicklucker. I feel like if I were a townie here and I had posted that vote count update after suspecting sicklucker, and I had internally changed my mind about sicklucker being mafia, posting that I was voting for sicklucker would be a wakeup call. Like "whoa, wait, I'm still on that guy? I need to move my vote." Koshi: Arrived at suspicion of Vivax about an hour before posting a vote, pressed Vivax on a few key questions during that hour, pushed the hell out of a Vivax lynch before going to bed at a time which 100% syncs up with his irl location. Sorry that was short but this looks clean as can be. Only reason Koshi was on an outlier was because of a lack of time to push the case once it formulated. Koshi is probably town. geript: On January 02 2015 14:24 geript wrote: Not ideal. I just assumed I was going to be lynched or at worst Chyz. Best option Vivax. I get why Bat was sketch, but why the last second switch? This is garbage. Vivax wasn't a viable wagon at all when geript posted and geript had enough time to see that. It was 20 minutes before the lynch. The switch wasn't even last-second, it was last-hour. At the time he voted Chyz was in no danger of being voted off. How do you check in to a voting thread and vote for someone who isn't a viable wagon out of fear that either you or someone else who isn't a viable wagon is going to get killed? And especially if you "get why Bat was sketch," how in the world do you have a hangup about voting for him and instead park on an outlier? And then there's this gem shortly before: On January 02 2015 12:23 geript wrote: Vivax is probably an ok lynch but I'm not actually sold that he'll flip mafia. So now it's checking into a voting thread, voting for someone you're not even sure is mafia who also isn't a viable wagon out of fear that either you or someone else who isn't a viable wagon is going to get killed. geript has a lot of explaining to do. Doc asks a good question about why mafia!geript does this in light of batsnacks flipping town; I feel like the answer that came to mind for me (not wanting to be a town wagon) isn't a very good one, and it's still the best one I have. But I don't get the townie mindset that leads to ^^^that. TL;DR ritoky, Superbia mafia geript wtf | ||
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On January 02 2015 15:39 DoctorHelvetica wrote: I'm inclined to agree with his first point so idk. SL has said some shit that i didn't like and some stuff i did like. i'll check his filter too. I kinda have you leaning scummy rn eden, we might as well talk now since this my only day off work this week. I will have to be much less active for the next 4 days or so. What's up? I don't feel like messing with vote count analysis any more right now. What do you think about geript? I feel like his explanation is obviously BS and yet at the same time it's hard to understand why he wouldn't just put the nail in town!batsnacks coffin if he were mafia. | ||
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On January 02 2015 16:05 DoctorHelvetica wrote: Well the main thing is that after he leaves the thread he comes back like he's ready to take the game seriously and then this. if he's scum i could see him just going into panic mode and doing something stupid, if he was town he would have been putting up a bigger fight this whole thread I think. I think there's no way that all town is involved in this like sicklucker seems to think, it was a great lynch at the time and everyone hit the panic button on it I tend to agree re: geript. I'm trying to be charitable and find reasons not to kill him because the two posts I quoted have me seeing red, but I don't get it. It was a good lynch. Also tending to agree that that wasn't an all-townie play but I don't know who to look at per se. Artanis is the first person that comes to mind for a couple of reasons: - of the people who ended up voting batsnacks, he sticks out most in my memory as egging me on - of the batsnacks voters, he was on Chyz first, not geript; that's where I think a mafia trying to swing a lynch away from geript would be - he bounced from the thread immediately post-flip; admittedly not a strong point given the time in the Netherlands but it seemed a little abrupt | ||
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On January 02 2015 16:08 Koshi wrote: Is this real life? I said lynch vivax. I said batsnacks might be town. I wake up. Vivax 2 votes. Batsnacks ded. Is this real life? Good news though, I decided you were a good guy in my vote count analysis. | ||
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On January 02 2015 16:15 DoctorHelvetica wrote: Artanis was giving me weird red vibes way earlier but his logic in slaying geript was strong. I'd have to read his filter too conspiratorial for him to even bother responding to i mean, if it's so strong, why did he move to chyz...? thoughts on sicklucker? he's playin like str8 bootyjuice right now but I feel like he's still town. | ||
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On January 02 2015 16:00 IAmRobik wrote: You shouldn't do such baller analysis -- you might die in the night. P.S. I came to the same conclusion as your regarding your scum reads. Excellent work Thanks bae. Anything to add? | ||
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On January 02 2015 16:24 DoctorHelvetica wrote: Why do you feel like he's town? Skim a few pages of his filter and see if you feel any different I read the first and last page and I feel the same for no intelligible reason. He just seems so... childlike. Not childish but childlike. That quadruple text message saying "Bae dont go " where he even misspelled my name is just too much. Lemme reread it when I get a chance tomorrow and decide, ok? | ||
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On January 02 2015 16:34 ritoky wrote: so we're lynching sicklucker like...immediately and unanimously at the start of next phase right? spends most of phase talking about why geript is mafia, randomly shennanie hammers a town for no stated reason coming off of the guy he hast stated is role hunting and mafia....guy was mafia last phase, still mafia this phase. needs to die immediately. like 0 questions asked. Welcome back to the land of the living. (I apologize in advance if anyone died in the ER.) What happened to pushing this read when you had a chance to get him lynched? | ||
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On January 02 2015 16:35 sicklucker wrote: can be mafia together I wouldn't worry about this yet, we need to find and kill a mobster before we can really start worrying about whether x and y fit as a team. They can both be independently suspicious and worth killing. | ||
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On January 02 2015 17:01 VisceraEyes wrote: @Doc - Flame me if you will, but I don't think your case is super strong. I can see some of the points, but frankly I agree with the sentiment that you just started at some point just making everything he does "scummy". There was some point where he appealed to you directly and your response to him sealed it for me. Like, he COULD have been just town trying to reason with you but you vilified him for it. He could still be mafia. I'd like to see what he has to say when he's not responding to a never-ending death-tunnel. For my part, I wouldn't fight his lynch tomorrow and would sooner shake my head in disapproval than argue with you continuing to tunnel him tomorrow, I'm just saying there's a lot of stuff in this game that's colored by this read and it could be wrong and you're gonna hate yourself in the morning if you come to find out that it's wrong. Take a step back and look elsewhere for a bit. Then maybe come back to this dude. I like what I've seen so far this night-phase. And for God's sake don't freak out and quit if it seems like no one is listening to you. That's the one line I've seen you toe this game I'd REALLY like for you to avoid. This seems fluffy to me, Doc already moved off of Chyz to vote geript, then moved off Chyz again to kill batsnacks. Doc spent a lot of time d1 on Chyz obviously, but at this point with Doc talking about other people and having killed someone not named Chyz, calling out Doc for tunneling Chyz seems easy. Correct me if I'm wrong VE but does this not just boil down to "Doc tunneled hard on Chyz and I don't think mafia!Doc does this"? If so, can you please contribute something else? You say you've already read most of the game but imo this is probably the easiest thing to pull from the game so far. You sound like you're ready to play, which I like, but I need something a little more next-level to show me you're really dialed in. | ||
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On January 02 2015 17:14 Koshi wrote: Page 86-88 batsnacks is active like hell and gives reads. People fucking lynched him? WHAT A FUCKING JOKERS. WHYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY This fucking happens when people start playing right when I go to bed and I can't protect them from teh jubjubs. You're gonna have to cite sources because he wouldn't even tell me straight that he thought Chyz was mafia despite voting him. I can understand your frustration at not having Vivax go but your summary here thoroughly contradicts what I experienced on the ground at the time in question. | ||
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On January 02 2015 17:20 VisceraEyes wrote: It's meant specifically for Doc, as notated by the "@Doc". So yes, it actually IS fluffy, because if you'll notice I've already said that I think Doc is VERY VERY town. That post isn't meant for me to show YOU that I'm paying attention to the game. That post is meant for me to appeal to Doc to hang in there because I witness him almost lose it like twice this phase and I'd like to try and play a civil game with him. It has nothing to do with you or my reads. OK, that's fair, sorry I misinterpreted where you were going with it. Care to show me now by commenting on something else? | ||
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On January 02 2015 17:26 VisceraEyes wrote: I'm just reading your fervor as over-the-top and feigned Koshi, sorry. Maybe if you EXPLAINED why you think someone with circa one post is mafia I'd be less bored. I agree with this. Koshi I really don't see how it is that you conclude the batsnacks lynch was really that bad if you read p86-88. | ||
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Or at least it seems that way. I admit I still haven't really looked at Vivax but Koshi's plainly incorrect assessment of batsnacks is leaving me skeptical as to his genuineness right now | ||
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On January 03 2015 06:59 sicklucker wrote: Who made that list post on the people who wasted their votes? because that was really good. Was that ritoky or eden? That was me. Hidden behind double quotes for readability: Anyway, I don't think geript answered this (not hiding for readability): On January 02 2015 15:58 Eden1892 wrote: geript: This is garbage. Vivax wasn't a viable wagon at all when geript posted and geript had enough time to see that. It was 20 minutes before the lynch. The switch wasn't even last-second, it was last-hour. At the time he voted Chyz was in no danger of being voted off. How do you check in to a voting thread and vote for someone who isn't a viable wagon out of fear that either you or someone else who isn't a viable wagon is going to get killed? And especially if you "get why Bat was sketch," how in the world do you have a hangup about voting for him and instead park on an outlier? And then there's this gem shortly before: So now it's checking into a voting thread, voting for someone you're not even sure is mafia who also isn't a viable wagon out of fear that either you or someone else who isn't a viable wagon is going to get killed. geript has a lot of explaining to do. Doc asks a good question about why mafia!geript does this in light of batsnacks flipping town; I feel like the answer that came to mind for me (not wanting to be a town wagon) isn't a very good one, and it's still the best one I have. But I don't get the townie mindset that leads to ^^^that. So can anyone else explain how this makes sense from... any POV? His explanation is obviously BS to me and I feel like he has to be mafia because I can't see why a townie would do that. I was reading the thread some at work and I think I'm on top of things, but it's possible I missed something. Did Superbia ever say anything that mattered? I saw ritoky did. I think I want to kill Superbia and/or geript today. I also think sicklucker's recent posts are rather suspicious but I don't want to kill him because he's adorable. Everything he posts makes me want to hug him and say "Bless your heart boy" and reach for a swig of sweet tea while sitting in my rocking chair on my front porch. I admit this is atrocious reasoning and will probably be talked out of it if sicklucker is the kill tomorrow but can we keep him? please??? | ||
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I need you to take a minute, collect your thoughts from the hour before and after the batsnacks lynch, and tell me in one post what your thought process was and why you did what you did. I will ask you questions about it which will refer back to your previous responses in the thread. If I don't like them I will lynch you, maybe tomorrow maybe later but I will come around to it at some point and you'll die. If I do like them I will trust my instinct that you're town and ignore the incredibly shifty reasoning you've given so far to justify your behavior. I feel like sicklucker is getting extremely flustered because he believes the batsnacks lynch looks bad for him, and if he's fairly inexperienced to the game (as I believe he is? just based on tone, someone can correct me if I'm wrong) I can see plausible town and mafia reasons for getting flustered like that. | ||
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I don't really get why he would, as mafia, ragequit right after trying to post a big case on Lazermonkey and right before posting all his claimed notes for the game, though. Like if he's mafia giving up and letting himself get lynched why would you bother to post a big list of things? | ||
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I think it means something, as I've said before: | ||
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On January 03 2015 07:56 sicklucker wrote: @edin im a math person and not confident in day 1 reads. When 4 people I believe to be town agree on a lynch I will follow their instincts over my own. Thats all their really is to it. If 4 people I believe are town of 6 think player x is mafia he is the most likely mafia in my mind. Would you describe yourself as not confident in your read on geript on day 1? Rereading the vote counts I believe the 4 town reads you cited were me, Doc, Arty and Damdred. Is that correct? If so, can you explain for me why you townread Artanis day 1? If not, can you tell me who they were? | ||
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On January 03 2015 08:21 sicklucker wrote: Correct. Like artanis was the one who called out gerit for his half ass poor read on me. From my pov hes correct so for day one hes totally town could be pocketed but less likely I need an answer to the first question in my last post here. Would you describe yourself as not confident in your read on geript on day 1? Can you elaborate a bit on what read Artanis called out from geript that made Artanis seem town to you? | ||
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Like if everyone's going to decree this lynch bad, it seems like questioning me about my case would be an obvious starting point to finding out if the batsnacks lynch was town- or mafia-driven. I was the most outspoken singular person in the final hour of the day for killing batsnacks, I wrote the biggest case that people seemed to follow. Yet as far as I'm aware not one of the people complaining about the lynch has asked me anything about it. It makes all this gnashing of teeth about the lynch ring incredibly hollow, like people are complaining about it because it's the in thing to do instead of trying to figure out what it means for the game. | ||
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On January 03 2015 08:43 marvellosity wrote: although it is in large part explained by Palmar being a loon I was on the verge of ranting at him specifically for this and telling him to get his mind right, cause I don't really remember Palmar going off the handle like this as town when things don't go his way. But as I was thinking it he said he was gonna go play DOTA, so I figured the better way to let him get his head right was to let him do that instead of submitting him to another voice in the game yelling at him. I'd still like him to explain though. Even if I'm just bad and don't see how the lynch is bad, I can develop myself as a player from the critique. | ||
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On January 03 2015 08:46 KelsierSC wrote: I didn't realise you were here but yes I want to look at your case again look at the case SL and dam made and especiaally look at how scummy SL has been (my case) and then you can understand why that lynch was bad. Why would their cases matter for the lynch being bad? Unless their cases are better than mine, and are still bad, they seem irrelevant. Sorry but I'm not going to be convinced a lynch I pushed and wrote a big case for is bad by being redirected to other people writing cases for the same lynch. I know you're saying you want to look at it again, would you care to do so and talk to me about mine, please? | ||
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On January 03 2015 08:50 KelsierSC wrote: Eden you made this giant post on bats with 3 reasons for calling him scum. I think your second case is good because I made it. My question is this. If you have 3 reasons for calling bats scum right at the deadline why didn't you bother to read him or make a case on him earlier. It feels like TMI Someone else brought him up as a possible kill when there was roughly an hour or so left. I want to say Artanis without looking, but I don't know. I don't remember remembering anything batsnacks had done to that point, and I remember saying I would read batsnacks instead of someone else (I think Lazermonkey and Vivax?). I read his filter, examined the context of the posts I thought were important and made the case in a larger post. I certainly wouldn't call it "right at the deadline," I think I made it with about 50 minutes left in the day, with at least a half-dozen people online to see it. Close, but not so close that people didn't have time to evaluate it for themselves. I have to admit I don't really understand where your question is going. | ||
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On January 03 2015 08:52 justanothertownie wrote: Eden, would you say your towngame changed since heavyweight? If the answer is yes then how? Absolutely, in large part because of it. I never had a handle on much of Heavyweight as it was going on. I just got myself towncleared day 1 by being spammy and trolly and coasted until everyone else who was talking died, and I got so wrapped up in trying to be spammy and trolly and funny that I forgot about actually playing the game. I did what I could to salvage it and tried to find the mafia at the end, but I was so far behind the eight ball that it's doubtful I would have really come back to win even if the mafia team hadn't played absurdly well. This began a decline in my online town play with some egregiously disastrous mislynches I drove and mafia I defended, because I took the wrong lessons from the game. Here's what I should have learned from it and did learn after having another disastrous performance recently in my Facebook group: - I was not engaged enough in digging into the content of posts. I got away from asking questions and following up on things and found myself mostly sheeping things that sounded good late in phases. On the odd occasion I was questioned about things I found myself unable to articulate convincingly why I believed certain things I did. I've tried to refocus myself toward more pointed questioning, and I hope it's shown in some of my interrogating this game. - I was too engaged with the game in terms of time. I averaged a post every 15 minutes for the entire span of the game. That's fucking ridiculous. I got obsessive with the game and checked it nearly every waking hour I had. When you work overnights with an Internet connection, as I did back then, that's a lot of waking hours. I spammed a bunch and made the thread shitty to read and when I did try to follow up on something (ex: stupid tunnels on Holyflare and marv), I never gave myself a chance to look at it with a fresh set of eyes. You can't genuinely look at something with a fresh set of eyes when you're checking the game every 2 hours. Combined with working another job where I can't readily access the game, one thing I've done differently this game is force myself to be away from the thread at times, so that I can give myself a reset and stop myself from chasing my tail. It's made keeping up a little difficult because there's a lot of posts in this game, but I'm doing what I can. - I got too paranoid about my townreads. My constant back-and-forth about Holyflare being town then Holyflare being mafia etc. was one example. I don't talk about townreads as much because I don't really see the need to do so, but where I have come around to townreading people, like Doc for example, I'm making myself trust the read even if there's a voice in the back of my head casting doubt on it. I've mislynched out of paranoia too many townies who I obviously and correctly townread, and I've decided that plays like your play in WHC, where I get totally bamboozled, are too few and far between to be worth worrying about. - Time. That was five months ago. I feel like I've grown a lot personally, become a lot more mindful, etc. etc. I could go on here but five months is a long time for a 20-something in terms of maturity. I think that hit the high points, if you care to hear more I can go dig up FB chats from the past 2 weeks and talk more about individual happenings but I think this should suffice. | ||
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On January 03 2015 09:07 IAmRobik wrote: I can't believe you just spent 627 words describing how you've changed since a game 3 months ago. Thanks for wasting peoples time. And thanks to JAT for asking a useless question that cause him to waste peoples time Thanks for spending time to run a word count on that post. What would you like to discuss instead? | ||
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On January 03 2015 08:56 KelsierSC wrote: my point is this. You have absolutely nothing on bats and no read but then you come up with a whole bunch of reasons to scum read him. Why weren't you looking at him earlier since you were such a headless chicken before then. why does point 1 make bats scummy? why does point 3? I don't recall saying anything about being a headless chicken. As I said, I didn't remember remembering anything batsnacks had said. When people are talking about killing someone, and you find yourself with absolutely no impression of them, would you not go reread them? (Especially if their filter is only 3 pgs long. If his filter had been longer I mightn't even have bothered, given time constraints. I think I said something about that with Lazermonkey, want to say marv said that he was a "background player" which means looking at basically everything he said and the few pages around it. With an hour, that's a lot of work for so little time.) As for "points 1 and 3" you're gonna have to explain your breakdown of my case to me. I couldn't remember breaking it down into three concise points and on rereading it, I didn't. | ||
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On January 03 2015 09:10 IAmRobik wrote: You're welcome. I'd like to discuss who is/isn't mafia instead of why/how your gameplay changed. Maybe I'm asking too much Well, you don't need my permission. (Do you?) What are you waiting for? | ||
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On January 03 2015 09:17 IAmRobik wrote: i've given my thoughts, but you talking about how your game has changed isn't providing anything to the game. It's a waste of fucking space and now it's wasting my time talking about how it was a waste of space and how JAT should ask better questions You said this about one of post of mine in a side tangent literally at the same time as multiple other, perhaps more directly salient lines of conversation were going on. You are just as guilty of "wasting time" on it as we are since you could have just left it alone and spent those posts talking about whatever you feel was a better use of your time. And that's assuming all of that was indeed a waste, JAT apparently found it useful and for reasons outside the game I found it incredibly helpful as well (although I'll acknowledge that doesn't do anything for you in this game right now). Please restate your most important thought right now for me. | ||
Eden1892
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On January 03 2015 08:34 Eden1892 wrote: I need an answer to the first question in my last post here. Would you describe yourself as not confident in your read on geript on day 1? Can you elaborate a bit on what read Artanis called out from geript that made Artanis seem town to you? | ||
Eden1892
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On January 03 2015 09:25 DoctorHelvetica wrote: Eden I thought at first was just nice but he always trying too hard not to ruffle feathers and seems to lack too much confidence at this point in the game. he seemed more confident in the first two hours of the game I wouldn't say I lack confidence, but I am on principle trying not to ruffle feathers, yes. There's another long-winded explanation for this involving out-of-game stuff that will give Robik an aneurysm if I explain though. | ||
Eden1892
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On January 03 2015 09:31 IAmRobik wrote: I'm obivously bringing it up becuase I believe if JAT is more scummy cause he's pretending to participate as opposed to actually participating Well, yes, I put that together. Sort of. I actually noticed that your point seemed to be less "Therefore, JAT is suspicious" and more "Therefore, JAT asks bad questions." I admit I haven't paid careful attention to your suspects. Excepting this, what was your view of JAT, and what is your view of him now? | ||
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You said you would read my case and give me critiques of it. When is this going to happen? | ||
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On January 03 2015 09:36 KelsierSC wrote: eden you case was roughly 1) bats read on robik was weird 2) his misrepresenting chyz 3) his last pages not having anything substantiaal I guess that's a decent breakdown, but I still find it misrepresenting to say that I broke it down into those three subsections, when it clearly (to me) reads more as a freeflowing assessment of batsnacks. Doubly so when you start couching it in terms of "isn't it weird how he had these 3 points he was instantly ready to make on batsnacks," as you've essentially been looking to do. (1) is not quite correct. The read was off, as I explained; what made it suspicious to me is that there wasn't any followup to it, nor did it seem any other suspect had commanded his attention to distract him from following up. It just kinda gets dropped without any explanation. I admit I wasn't as clear on this as I should have been, though. (2) is also not quite correct, and I feel like it's more clearly not quite correct than your reading of (1). Again, it's this attempt to read/contribute something about Chyz that doesn't make much sense that's weird, and the lack of meaningful direction or followup to it that's suspicious. I did call it a "horrible misinterpretation" but that's not why I found it suspicious. (3) is pretty much correct, and is indeed suspicious given (1) and (2) constitute his main focuses in the thread. And while it's not in the case itself, I feel it would be remiss to overlook the point I hammered home the most in my arguing for batsnacks to be lynched, which was that batsnacks was defaulting to a policy lynch on Chyz and pointedly refusing to tell me whether or not he actually thought Chyz was mafia. And yeah, I know you're reading it, my point is that you've made multiple significant errors of fact and that you're not reading the case fairly. You entered your read of it wanting to find a way to make it fit into your preconceived notion that I came out of nowhere with 3 points I'd been sitting on in order to bury a townie, instead of reading it with a genuine interest in determining my alignment and the alignment of the people that followed my vote onto batsnacks. | ||
Eden1892
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On January 03 2015 09:40 Vivax wrote: Do you remember that monologue you started when DrH gave you ways of suspicion? Care to explain why you'd somehow talk like you're silently making the narrative up to yourself other than simply calling these things out in the thread and get DrH or anyone else to get some feedback on it? What did you think me posting that list of reasons I found Doc suspicious was for, other than calling them out in the thread and getting feedback on them? If I simply needed a mental note to remember to revisit Doc in the morning, I'd have written it on my notebook and checked it in the morning, no post needed. The point of that post was (a) to highlight it for other people so they could discuss it while I went to bed, and (b) to give a clean reference point when I inevitably revisited it tomorrow, anticipating that just bringing it up cold turkey would be more confusing than helpful. | ||
Eden1892
United States5866 Posts
On January 03 2015 10:05 Vivax wrote: Kinda bugs me how Eden first scumreads Doc, then scumreads Chyz, then goes on with saying "One or the other is mafia" when they have been in such a clińch. Excluding a bussing here cause of that ragequit from Chyz. But I feel like Eden has been way less vocal about DrH than say TheCyyz. Er... sorry, what was the end point here? I know what you're referencing but I'm not following what you mean. I scumread Doc about an hour into d1 for reasons I don't remember now, I scumread Chyz for his entry post. Don't remember exactly when I said "one or the other is mafia" (fairly certain it was in the morning/early afternoon of NYE my time, which would be first half of d1) so I don't remember what prompted me to say it, but I do remember saying this. It ended up not being important because both Doc and Chyz helped me clarify my reads on them with certain other actions later into d1. Where are you going here? It is a little odd to me that you're bringing up some things I said about Doc and Chyz from relatively early in d1 that aren't really relevant to my reads on them now. | ||
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On January 03 2015 09:52 KelsierSC wrote: that is how the case looked broken down to me eden, just how it felt in my mind. I think you defended your case pretty well and you are right it wasnt just before deadline. you feel town Enh... that felt a little quick. You seemed awful sure earlier. I'll sort it out later I guess. | ||
Eden1892
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On January 03 2015 10:31 Vivax wrote: Would you kindly point out how Doc and Cyz helped you clarify your reads on them and what the outcome was? Sure. Doc pushed hella hard on Chyz and seemed to genuinely believe his case instead of just tunneling for sake of having something to do. I read him as town for this, and although I can see how his actions are not per se inconsistent with him being mafia (unless Chyz is mafia...), I still got the impression that it was a townie push instead of a mafia push. There was just a moment where I was reading Doc's push and was like "This guy is town." Chyz I've talked about more explicitly, I thought he was town because I didn't really see how the last 3 posts he made came together from a mafia POV. Check his filter and you'll see what I mean (or check my filter shortly before I made my case on batsnacks, somewhere on p3 I think, and you'll see me showing you what I mean). There's this long pbp case on Lazermonkey that screamed town-that-thinks-he-just-found-all-the-answers, with a comment about taking the game too seriously for his health at the start, then 2 posts down there's a ragequit with a long reads list as his last post. I just think that has to be townie. It makes no sense for mafia to do an abrupt 180 from trying to push a lynch on someone else to a ragequit and self-vote -- which he has to figure would lead to him getting killed -- with a long reads/notes list that people weren't going to read. | ||
Eden1892
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On January 03 2015 09:47 sicklucker wrote: Yes I was confident in the original lynch. I was confident in the other one too because of who was voting OK, I'm running into a problem here. I know people have already brought this up, but I need you to go over this for me one more time. You said here that you switched your vote because you weren't confident in your d1 reads, but it seems to me that your switch is entirely because of confidence in your d1 reads, and you say as much here. Why the discrepancy between the post I linked and the post I quoted? | ||
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On January 03 2015 11:04 Lazermonkey wrote: Wait a minute, if SL is scum then geript kinda has to be as well. Why the fuck would he do that retarded vote switch otherwise? I still have reservations about sicklucker. His 4 town reads thing actually checks out pretty good if you read carefully. That's why I took time to ask him specifically about Artanis -- he very clearly said well before any of me/Damdred/Doc switched to batsnacks that he townread all of us, and while he didn't explicitly say as much with Artanis, his answer checked out when I questioned him on that earlier. "Biggest" townreads might have been a stretch, but if sicklucker is mafia and voted batsnacks to save geript, that's one rather powerful act of divine providence to have 4 people he had previously called town all decide to kill a townie over his partner in the last hour of the game to give him a plausible excuse. | ||
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On January 03 2015 11:30 Artanis[Xp] wrote: Is there a reason for scum Geript not wanting to lynch Bats though? It's just weird, not alignment indicative. No clue. It's why I wish he would answer this question so I could stop having to think about it. It's not alignment-indicative in itself but it basically leaves him in my lynch pile until he says something I can actually believe. | ||
Eden1892
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On January 03 2015 10:52 Eden1892 wrote: Oops missed this. OK, I'm running into a problem here. I know people have already brought this up, but I need you to go over this for me one more time. You said here that you switched your vote because you weren't confident in your d1 reads, but it seems to me that your switch is entirely because of confidence in your d1 reads, and you say as much here. Why the discrepancy between the post I linked and the post I quoted? | ||
Eden1892
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On January 03 2015 11:45 sicklucker wrote: Im never very confident in any day 1 reads is more what im saying especially my own. As far as day 1 reads tho I was pretty confident Do you know of any past examples where you were not confident in a day 1 read I can look up and compare to? Because even if that's "pretty confident as far as day one reads," that seemed really confident for "never very confident in any day one reads" to me, and I know I'm not alone in this. | ||
Eden1892
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Boy hush | ||
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On January 03 2015 12:19 IAmRobik wrote: I don't like Lazer's post either. specifically 'well fuck, i still think" Agreed. I don't get what part of Artanis's post would provoke that reaction. | ||
Eden1892
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On January 03 2015 12:17 Eden1892 wrote: Do you know of any past examples where you were not confident in a day 1 read I can look up and compare to? Because even if that's "pretty confident as far as day one reads," that seemed really confident for "never very confident in any day one reads" to me, and I know I'm not alone in this. | ||
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I think sicklucker is town. I don't want to kill him today, maybe ever. Yes it's derpy as hell that he says he changed his vote off geript to batsnacks because he "wasn't confident" in the read on geript, even though he has multiple posts that basically say geript is definitely mafia. But: (1) His story on his four town reads is completely consistent and held up despite direct questioning. He had explicitly townread three of them and implicitly townread a fourth well before he justified his vote switch by sheeping his townreads. (2) Sheeping one's townreads off of a vote you like to another wagon late is definitely something a townie would do, and seems like something a townie is more likely to do than a mafia, because a mafia would be worried about how bad "sheep townreads onto a town flip" would look afterwards. (3) The stars had to have aligned colossally for sicklucker to be mafia and be able to make any kind of strategic switch to kill batsnacks with the rationale that he sheeped his four most consistent town reads. You can't make this up. Other EoN stuff: Until I get an explanation from geript regarding why his excuse for his late vote was an outright fabrication and I hear something convincing for the switch, he's likely my kill for tomorrow. I can't see any reason why this guy should be allowed to make it to day 3. I still have not read Vivax but promise to do so next day. His questioning me was weird and didn't seem to go anywhere so I can kinda see where people are coming from on him, but I'd like to have something more definitive. Maybe more vote count crunching too. Chyz, Doc, sicklucker, Koshi are my townreads so far. I should probably have more by now but I haven't paid enough attention to most people to have an honest read. Luckily I expect all of my reads to be alive tomorrow so kills should help thin that out. That's all I think. I highly doubt I die n1 but just in case~ | ||
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More to come. | ||
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On January 03 2015 09:05 Eden1892 wrote: - I was not engaged enough in digging into the content of posts. I got away from asking questions and following up on things and found myself mostly sheeping things that sounded good late in phases. On the odd occasion I was questioned about things I found myself unable to articulate convincingly why I believed certain things I did. I've tried to refocus myself toward more pointed questioning, and I hope it's shown in some of my interrogating this game. - I was too engaged with the game in terms of time. I averaged a post every 15 minutes for the entire span of the game. That's fucking ridiculous. I got obsessive with the game and checked it nearly every waking hour I had. When you work overnights with an Internet connection, as I did back then, that's a lot of waking hours. I spammed a bunch and made the thread shitty to read and when I did try to follow up on something (ex: stupid tunnels on Holyflare and marv), I never gave myself a chance to look at it with a fresh set of eyes. You can't genuinely look at something with a fresh set of eyes when you're checking the game every 2 hours. Combined with working another job where I can't readily access the game, one thing I've done differently this game is force myself to be away from the thread at times, so that I can give myself a reset and stop myself from chasing my tail. It's made keeping up a little difficult because there's a lot of posts in this game, but I'm doing what I can. - I got too paranoid about my townreads. My constant back-and-forth about Holyflare being town then Holyflare being mafia etc. was one example. I don't talk about townreads as much because I don't really see the need to do so, but where I have come around to townreading people, like Doc for example, I'm making myself trust the read even if there's a voice in the back of my head casting doubt on it. I've mislynched out of paranoia too many townies who I obviously and correctly townread, and I've decided that plays like your play in WHC, where I get totally bamboozled, are too few and far between to be worth worrying about. - Time. That was five months ago. I feel like I've grown a lot personally, become a lot more mindful, etc. etc. I could go on here but five months is a long time for a 20-something in terms of maturity. I think a lot of town's problems resulted from there being entirely too damn much talking going on. This game was just shy of 10,000 posts. You guys realize that's a ridiculous amount of talking, right? The thread was a nightmare to keep up with, as a townie. Confession time, I skipped whole pages to stay atop of what was going on while I was alive and probably would have had at best 75% of the game read had I survived to the end. I think a lot of players in this game would have benefited from forcing themselves to take time off from thinking about the game and revisiting it after a break. When you're constantly engaged with a thread as active as a 24-hr news network, your capacity to think strategically flatlines. You end up placing too much importance on the most recent things that happen because your brain simply isn't fit to process all the information being thrown at it - to say nothing of being able to take meaningful, deliberate action after processing it. Some advice I've learned from this game (and the ones I made mention of in the post I'm quoting) which I think others would also find beneficial: - It's okay not to have all the answers. In fact, you're better off being okay with not having all or even any answers than you are if you go berserk on whatever your best lead of the moment is. - Make yourself take breaks. Play a video game, go for a walk with your dog, don't check in all the time at work, don't stay up past a reasonable bedtime to play the game (EOD excepted). No matter how good you think you are, you will have ideas that are wrong more than you'll have ideas that are right, and sometimes it's as simple as looking at an idea after a break to figure out the difference. - Read more and post less! I mean it, it's that simple. Read Ver's guide on how to improve. You don't have to have 10 pages of filter per day to be an effective townie. In fact, you probably hurt your ability to be one when you start saying that much stuff, because there are diminishing returns to posting, as with everything in life. | ||
Eden1892
United States5866 Posts
On January 18 2015 21:49 GlowingBear wrote: Eden, if everyone reads more and post less, the thread will be empty I think the players needs to know their potentials and work with them. Some players are very good at analysing and others are good to keep pushing the thread forward. If they work together with their potentials they will be able to get through the game. Lol no it won't. What kind of false dichotomy is that? I guarantee town would have been fine if we had only had 7000 posts instead of 10000. Or 6000. That's silly to suggest otherwise. Especially since so much of it was bad witch hunts. | ||
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