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Eden I think you were next in regards to things outstanding:
On August 04 2014 15:57 Eden1892 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 04 2014 15:38 WaveofShadow wrote:
I'll accept the final point, though I don't believe you aren't asking just to ask, because you didn't even know who you were asking about when you did at first.
Easy towncred when called out for defending everyone else's apparent scumread so he can say 'lulz why would I hard defend someone everyone else is attacking as scum' but more damning is the grabbing the quick out as soon as he could when attention trundle to him. It's pretty basic scared scumplay IMO, guy made a play and felt like it might have backfired/wants to play safe and get on everyone's good site now. See conversation with GK for example.
Though if they were both scum that might be interesting too. no, I knew it was Haru; I phrased it like I didn't because I find people tend to be more eager to oblige me that way if they really believe someone is scum, since they want to convince me of their read and... what? he's not hard defending you. he said that your earlier stiff play could be the result of not playing for a while and that he reads you null for stiff play. furthermore this stance has been consistent, so how did he ever "grab an out"? my main problem right now is that this read seems really superficial to me. you have to assume haru is mafia for this to make sense, and it writes off the very reasonable alternative that he's town and (imo) the better explanation for his behavior. this wouldn't be a problem, as many players good and bad struggle with giving non-superficial reads sometimes, especially early in the game. but then you turn right around with this: Show nested quote +On August 04 2014 15:42 WaveofShadow wrote:On August 04 2014 15:38 justanothertownie wrote:Ok, first and foremost if marv doesn't show up with something relevant and lurks - we kill him. I think we can all agree on that one. So far I think Eden is probably town because he seems very comfortable and was one of the first to actually scumhunt (together with HF). I think I also somewhat like goodkarma because his play so far has been really different than in showdown. On August 04 2014 09:52 Vivax wrote:
It's not mafiaish at all he just has a different opinion than you and not everyone with a different opinion is mafia. I don't like this post. How do you know it is not mafiaish? I am not saying Haru is scum but why do you feel the need to defend him like that this early? Also, Obi with a way less impressing start than in an unnamed game. Could say the same of you. I don't get the feeling vivax was defending him, rather simply expressing his pov. which imo was a good job reading into vivax past the most obvious conclusion. so you're clearly capable of reading into a post and recognizing a superior but non-obvious conclusion... yet you're not doing this with haru? and then at the end there's this throwaway comment about haru and goodkarma being scum. do you intend to follow up on this at all? what makes you think they might both be scum and if it's so interesting why just leave it hanging?
Not sure why I didn't respond to this in the first place to be honest...maybe I went to bed?
Ultimately it seems your main problem with me is the same as Vivax, that I don't consider towny perspectives in my read of Haru? (I don't see how that's true considering you've been spouting all game about how 'manufactured' my posts are, which again is horseshit) It could be possible that I didn't give Haru a fair shot at considering both perspectives but I don't see at all how you can say that the towny perspective is the more likely explanation for his behaviour at all. Why does the non-obvious conclusion have to be the superior one necessarily? There are things in haru's play that jump out and shout 'SCUM' in my face, and some other ones that don't, but ultimately the scummy ones win out, hence my scumread. That's how the game of mafia is played.
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Agreeing with cav again
Poofter why is your play so shit this game?
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On August 05 2014 11:24 goodkarma wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2014 10:58 WaveofShadow wrote:On August 05 2014 10:25 Vivax wrote:
WoS still have to see you act up on that sort of FoS you placed on GK early. How do you read him currently. I'm not sure how calling him null was a FoS, I just said some of his posting made me feel all wonky about him. I think I'm used to playing games with him when he's always under the gun so to see him posting in a different way now (though still spr srs) gives me pause. Ultimately he recently liked the same thing I did in regards to Haru's reaction to HF (though we've obviously come to different conclusions about it) though maybe GK you can go into a little more detail as to what about Haru's reaction you liked? I'd give GK slightly towny side of null for now---if there were a good way to pressure GK (that I wouldn't feel guilty about) to make him post similar to what I'm used to in many games I'd do it. Feel free to come at me as hard as you'd like. I won't ragequit I promise.
Well the point being by saying this out loud and not having anything particularly useful to pressure you on, pressuring to get you to post in a way I'm more familiar with won't work.
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On August 05 2014 11:37 goodkarma wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2014 11:28 WaveofShadow wrote:On August 05 2014 11:24 goodkarma wrote:On August 05 2014 10:58 WaveofShadow wrote:On August 05 2014 10:25 Vivax wrote:
WoS still have to see you act up on that sort of FoS you placed on GK early. How do you read him currently. I'm not sure how calling him null was a FoS, I just said some of his posting made me feel all wonky about him. I think I'm used to playing games with him when he's always under the gun so to see him posting in a different way now (though still spr srs) gives me pause. Ultimately he recently liked the same thing I did in regards to Haru's reaction to HF (though we've obviously come to different conclusions about it) though maybe GK you can go into a little more detail as to what about Haru's reaction you liked? I'd give GK slightly towny side of null for now---if there were a good way to pressure GK (that I wouldn't feel guilty about) to make him post similar to what I'm used to in many games I'd do it. Feel free to come at me as hard as you'd like. I won't ragequit I promise. Well the point being by saying this out loud and not having anything particularly useful to pressure you on, pressuring to get you to post in a way I'm more familiar with won't work. I don't post like I used to. I found people got ragey and mislynch-happy when I posted large paragraphs of logic. Besides, I haven't really seen you pressure your scumread(s) all that much, the people you should be pressuring.
I haven't been around all that much.
Also as far as scumreadS go, I only have the one right now, and I recently posted about him. Care to comment as it seems you and I have differing opinions?
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Poofter, you scumread Haru without explaining why. I think it's probably time to explain.
As for people voting him right now, is there any particular reason, or just 'cause he's being shit?
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On August 05 2014 11:51 Tehpoofter wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2014 11:46 Holyflare wrote:
Well it's unfortunate that ylu continue to lie to the thread by saying you didn't then I didn't I won't get lynched so you can just hang out and be wrong 
See, the thing is I have way more faith that HF can get his target lynched than some other people here Poofter.
Your BMK reads were leans, fine. What were they based on? Do you have any other reads? Is marv the lynch for today?
Let's get something concrete plz
HF can you comment re: Haru? For something people have been waiting for from me for so long, I'm kind of surprised that I have gotten absolutely nothing (though I suppose I shouldn't be---it's par for the course for me to put effort into something and have people ignore it).
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On August 05 2014 11:55 Holyflare wrote:
It's a 100% legitimate heuristic that people that do shitty catch up post by post after saying they are around and reading/catching up hours before are mafia
Is this really what you're going on?
I have done this multiple times as town. Prome has done it as town. I can't give more examples because I can't remember past games anymore without searching.
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On August 05 2014 12:01 goodkarma wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2014 11:39 WaveofShadow wrote:On August 05 2014 11:37 goodkarma wrote:On August 05 2014 11:28 WaveofShadow wrote:On August 05 2014 11:24 goodkarma wrote:On August 05 2014 10:58 WaveofShadow wrote:On August 05 2014 10:25 Vivax wrote:
WoS still have to see you act up on that sort of FoS you placed on GK early. How do you read him currently. I'm not sure how calling him null was a FoS, I just said some of his posting made me feel all wonky about him. I think I'm used to playing games with him when he's always under the gun so to see him posting in a different way now (though still spr srs) gives me pause. Ultimately he recently liked the same thing I did in regards to Haru's reaction to HF (though we've obviously come to different conclusions about it) though maybe GK you can go into a little more detail as to what about Haru's reaction you liked? I'd give GK slightly towny side of null for now---if there were a good way to pressure GK (that I wouldn't feel guilty about) to make him post similar to what I'm used to in many games I'd do it. Feel free to come at me as hard as you'd like. I won't ragequit I promise. Well the point being by saying this out loud and not having anything particularly useful to pressure you on, pressuring to get you to post in a way I'm more familiar with won't work. I don't post like I used to. I found people got ragey and mislynch-happy when I posted large paragraphs of logic. Besides, I haven't really seen you pressure your scumread(s) all that much, the people you should be pressuring. I haven't been around all that much. Also as far as scumreadS go, I only have the one right now, and I recently posted about him. Care to comment as it seems you and I have differing opinions? You seem to have some grasp of why people read him as towny. The real question is if you think his response to the HF tunnel is fake or not. If fake then scum. If not he's town. My personal thoughts on Haru should be pretty clear from my filter.
GK reads aren't (or shouldn't be) ever as simple as that. My inclination is to believe the response more likely comes from town, but then everything else Haru has said or done that looks scummy goes ignored. If cases could so easily be boiled down to one simple action then you could just as easily say that about everyone: "if so-and-so is lying about this they're scum, if not they're town." You don't know the truth so you have to sum up and take into account all that they have done and decide what is important and what isn't. Do you believe so strongly that what Haru said is not faked that you can ignore everything else?
And HF what I find Haru scummy for is different from what you find him scummy for, isn't it? Do you find it adds to or detracts from your tunnel? (And nothing Haru said or did detunneled you?)
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On August 05 2014 12:05 Holyflare wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2014 11:57 WaveofShadow wrote:On August 05 2014 11:55 Holyflare wrote:
It's a 100% legitimate heuristic that people that do shitty catch up post by post after saying they are around and reading/catching up hours before are mafia Is this really what you're going on? I have done this multiple times as town. Prome has done it as town. I can't give more examples because I can't remember past games anymore without searching. Yes and when you do it as town you comment on useful stuff and draw conclusions from those posts and do it immediately when you are reading. Poofter waited 3 hours to then make his first comment on marv voting and I know from before when he was around that people say to read marv by seeing if he lynched mafia or not. He even references the game (order) where marv lynched mafia and it was said in that game. So reallt ghis 3 hours wait into commenting on something useless is what makes him mafia
Alright this makes more sense. Continuing on though, based on things happening earlier in this game, wouldn't a scummer be more likely to prepare something and try to look useful when coming back rather than posting shit? What does Poofter have to gain as scum by doing what he is doing? Or do you believe Poofter is truly just playing shit scum in which case I don't really have anything more to say 
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On August 05 2014 12:16 Tehpoofter wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2014 12:07 Holyflare wrote:
Marv voting early is ridiculous. He has voted early plenty of times and it's most definitely a pressure vote because he says it is.
Which you'd know if you read the thread and then made conclusions instead of pretending to be contributing in real time post by post I admitted I haven't read the thread the whole way through I think marv is like impossible to read i just end up praying hes townie so when he doesn something different I'm going to point it out. I didn't even say it was scummy just that it was odd those are too very different things.
Except you called him scum at the beginning of the game so I would think it only safe to assume you were simply elaborating on your earlier read. Backtracking?
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On August 05 2014 12:20 Holyflare wrote:
Shitty scum and he lurks all the time as mafia just to come back with no content. Also your haru thing is odd because you spent all that time on haru but then really never had a real conclusion at the end of it. It does look scummy that he's null on you but then wants to group you with other ppl thus saying you're scummy out of the blue and it's scummy that he comes back to attack me saying that I'm twisting his words and then just fucks off after doing nothing again. Yes his outburst could be towny but I've seen so many scum be angry it's not really anything to go by for me.
Also GK why did you sheep me onto poofter if i provided no argument whatsoever?
Dafuq
How did I provide no conclusion? it's at the end of my post where I say
Ultimately I am still scummy on Haru because in rereading I have gone through and I don't see the towny perspective being stronger than a scum-aligned one for his actions.
and then vote for him?
And GK your second point is kind of shitty imo. It's a meta example of one.
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Eh, I mean I sort of understand the unwanted attention part, but look at what's happened to his activity and usefulness now that people are basically off his ass?
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On August 05 2014 12:29 Holyflare wrote:I mean that's not a real conclusion. It makes me sad because it looks so mafiaishy  it just looks so overly worded for you to say you're scum reading someone You say in rereading and that you've gone through all in one sentence which probably means you were rewriting it so that it looked normal
I don't even understand that second sentence but I can honestly say I have no fucking clue why you think that's scummy.
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On August 05 2014 12:35 Holyflare wrote:Show nested quote +Ultimately I am still scummy on Haru because in rereading I have gone through and I don't see the towny perspective being stronger than a scum-aligned one for his actions. You say the same thing in the same sentence. The in reading i have gone through. It just looks really weird like you rewrote the sentence abd then it screwed up and you didn't reread it. Ignoring that, you over justify why you scum read him (weighing up town reasons on reread) instead of just saying he's probably scum
First of all, it's not the same thing at all, if you want to argue semantics (which is so silly I can't even believe I'm entertaining it).
Reading is simply the act of reading itself while going through implies comprehension.
As far as over justification I simply don't agree. It was a conclusion. If I had put TL;DR would that have been better?
I also don't understand this obsession with 'constructed' posting being scummy, which I wanted to get across to Eden before as well.Of course posts can be constructed as either alignment, it's a fucking forum where you get to think about what you write before you do it. It's not always going to be the case as sometimes people simply post without bothering to think or edit but it depends on what you're trying to do or say. If I'm writing a big, constructed reads post or case, then I'm going to make sure it looks and sounds good to me. Do you not think I went over my massive reads posts in Shadow Game and edited?
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On August 05 2014 12:55 Holyflare wrote:
There's 2 types of constructed. One to make sure all typos and grammar are correct and one that is edited repeatedly because in the persons mind they wouldn't say something like that as town. In the latter case the sentence structure often comes out as weird from all the editing they've done. You've explained what you meant with it now though but it's still overly worded abd makes it look like you were catering your post to people that criticised you for only scum reading haru from one perspective. It's too i want to fit inny.
I do both kinds of editing with every long form post like that I make. I dunno I really don't see this argument going anywhere, it seems silly to me. If you want to push it and me further then go ahead and we can turn it into something, but right now I just don't see a point.
As far as Poofter goes I want to see how others react to my case tomorrow, though I'll only be able to phonepost sporadically. I will sheep onto Poofter if it becomes necessary if haru doesn't pick up steam as I don't really have any other scumreads right now.
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Hey HF, now that you've unvoted Poofter do you no longer believe he is the lynch for today? Your mind was changed pretty quick. Are you going to inform the rest of the people on poofter's ass now about his newfound non-scumminess?
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Not sure why the switch off Haru onto Vivax.
Also it really sucks to only be around when very few people are.
I'm not sold on GD despite Vivax's ravings; aside from Haru (my thoughts have absolutely not changed---why, by the way was my case NEVER brought up throughout the ENTIRE deliberation as to whether or not people should vote him?) I think Cav is likely 2nd scum.
HF looks worse, marv is marv, kush still sueprtown and probably Eden is too? though for a guy who attempted to lead town throughout much of D1 he kinda petered off. Maybe stronger voices made it hard?
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Oh yeah thanks Eden, and Poofter
No fucking clue what to think of him at this point---reminds me of a rock wall where you can throw whatever you want at him and get no useful reaction.
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On August 06 2014 11:32 Eden1892 wrote:
I petered off cause I couldn't figure out what I wanted to do. Eventually settled on Haru and felt good about it, needed to sleep, woke up and durp everywhere.
I actually think marv looks significantly worse than HF out of those two although I'm not sold on either.
I want Cav tomorrow though, I feel pretty good about that case. Did not like his EOD play at all, looked like scum who got caught up in the Chinese fire drill and was having trouble calculating whether switching was a good play. That plus his pointed refusal to be involved in the direction of the thread = good scum case
My issue with the 'having trouble calculating' part, is would cav let us know about all the trouble he was having out loud?
Also why does marv look worse? I know marv way better than you do I imagine, and I'm interested in what you got out of his play.
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On August 06 2014 11:48 goodkarma wrote:
Vivax flip is super-frustrating. Regroup and do better tomorrow.
Except if it wasn't Vivax, it would have been Haru, who you currently townread I believe?
What would you have done?
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EPT
