Showdown Mafia

On July 30 2014 08:08 Vivax wrote:

And after all, if somebody is confident enough, he will duel on his own. We should be careful after all to not become tunneled and emotional all too quickly, even though it's hard for me when confronted with HF's attempts to misrepresent my posts and paint me scum.

On July 30 2014 08:10 kushm4sta wrote:
See I think, rather than an impulsive thing, duels should be forced by town consensus between the two scummiest people. That way the voting phase will mean something.

On July 30 2014 08:15 ObiWanShinobi wrote:


What if the two scummiest don't want to duel each other?

The reality of it is we should be able to pick our lynch before we even begin to duel, thereby ensuring that we get the correct lynch and that the mafia has no ability to manipulate the vote either way.

Since everybody knows I am town, I can ensure that whoever I duel will get lynched; ergo, this is the most efficient way of lynching people since there's simply no room for mafia to maneuver when the gauntlet is thrown.

On July 30 2014 09:06 ObiWanShinobi wrote:


"Forced" is such an unbelievably subjective term and turning this into a, "I don't like the way you're doing things" war is just a giant waste of time.

On July 30 2014 09:14 ObiWanShinobi wrote:


I'm not just going to let you tell people that I'm scummy for no reason and expect everything to be totally okay.

If you think I'm scummy, then pressure me. I don't like the fact that you're just going "nah I don't like this lol" and then just walking away like it never happened.

On July 30 2014 08:08 Vivax wrote:



Mafia can cause a lot of chaos in the eventuality that two scummy people duel each other. Imagine if they both were townies. You mislynch one, and they can push the idea that people on his wagon were scummy, then maybe they mislynch the other, and so on. Besides, if mafia so wants, they can simply refuse to duel, upon which somebody has to take up the task and pick one of the two.

Seems rather unrealistical. I like the idea of having one townie guy duel somebody who is scummy, it will look one sided, but it will also be one of the opportunities where either scum shows face or has to give up on their teammate, if the target was right.

On July 30 2014 09:17 ObiWanShinobi wrote:


Or I'll just have you lynched.

Your call.

On July 30 2014 09:23 marvellosity wrote:

trust me bro. it sounds better in theory but it just isn't.

obi was clever because he added the point about people only wanting to duel ppl they think are mafia. if x and y are deemed scummiest but neither of them are each other's main scumread, then they just won't duel each other, and it won't really be scummy even if we try in vain to enforce the policy.

the only worthwhile thing is not to be a rash asshole.

On July 30 2014 09:23 Holyflare wrote:


Forgot to add that you should stop tunneling your inner koshi.

On July 30 2014 09:28 Holyflare wrote:


With logic.

On July 30 2014 09:50 Holyflare wrote:


Palmar is good at mafia. I'm a high volume poster in every game. This is the first time he's ever made a post like that so it's different and very odd as he's only said it now in a game where he's guilty of spamming himself.

On July 30 2014 09:56 Holyflare wrote:


Spam as in contentless posts. When he posted that all he had said was holyflare is 100% mafia (in which case why would he make the post asking me not to spam?) and useless afking. So it should have been suspicious to a lot of people. Really though i just wanted cav to expand on his reasoning for things because i like when people give reasons. (palmars read post turned me around on him)

On July 30 2014 10:52 Holyflare wrote:


All he's done is say that obi is confident which = town (extrapolating on my part) and then say that this confidence if continued is probably forced. That's really it and a very odd sentiment to come into the thread with (when cav hadn't really done much more since then)

On July 30 2014 11:05 Damdred wrote:
I know its been talked about a little bit but I agree with that it should be a confident townie against his top scum read. Its to easy sometimes when two people you think look scummy to tunnel them both and just not see whats going on besides that.

On July 30 2014 11:24 Holyflare wrote:


Did you read world cup though x_x? A game where cav was actually mafia and was pretty... I dunno.. Blendy/scared.

On July 30 2014 11:28 Holyflare wrote:
Well do it.

Also bat if you duel straight away and claim cop i would still lynch you because that's how silly it is.

On July 30 2014 11:30 Damdred wrote:


And yea my post wasn't as clear as I would want it to be. I would rather someone who is confident take on someone who is their top scum read than the thread pressure two people who they think are the scummiest into dueling. It is very easy for low fruit to be pushed into dueling each other and getting mislynched and the town not learning much from it.

On July 30 2014 11:35 slOosh wrote:
Maybe he is high off vigging scum from Titanic. Who knows.

Anyhows at this point I'm still feel goods about Palmar's list for reasons I mentioned earlier.

Anyone feel not so good about anyone who has posted thus far?

On July 30 2014 11:38 ObiWanShinobi wrote:
I don't know.

For some reason I always feel like I can try to talk some sense into you, but you always shove your head up your ass instead.

Whatever.

On July 30 2014 19:06 raynpelikoneet wrote:
Food break.

Cava supertown
Vivax seems scummy
Sloosh town
Holyflare likely town
kush might be town
justanothertownie could be mafia
Palmar's reads are terrible
kush very likely town
Sloosh is supertown
Sloosh you're dumb Palmar's list is meaningless and dumb

On July 30 2014 20:13 ritoky wrote:
here's the deal everyone, i been bread crumbing a bit; but it's time to let everybody in on this shiz.

i have a bomb strapped to my chest, and it goes off at dawn. it cannot be roleblocked and it goes through protections. lucky for me, i get to bring one of you find gentlemen down with me.

i just wanted some good food, jovial atmosphere, and a little alcohol to celebrate my last night on this planet.

Here is my charge to every single person in the game: I want your top 2 candidates of whom should blow up with me and why.

Oh and the clock is ticking, we got just under 11 hours until I go off.

Don't make me RNG this.

On July 30 2014 22:36 Vivax wrote:
If I were to make an early call on Damdred I'd say that he looks like he always did and thus probably town , with a style that makes him somehow suspicious for TL standards for some reason. Not confident enough in giving a definite read but I wouldn't call him scummy.

Not so sure about Jat cause he sees scummy things where I wouldn't expect them, Obi first, now Damdred and I'd like to hear more of his reasoning since his conclusions seem so much different from mine.

Could be indicative of him not knowing what to do while trying to stay active as scum since he stopped talking about setup stuff, so he kind of looks for scum in places where townies already put a checkmark in a box, I happened to do that as scum and then ended up harvesting wtfs for scumreading people everyone else is townreading.

I'm just putting this out there cause I don't feel confident in scumreading jat just for this, I think it is noteworthy and am curious about the responses.

Next topic, since SlOosh wondered for what reasons I scumread HF:

HF is a very aggressive scum player and I was amazed at how many cases he was able to crank out in GSL I think, where he carried us to victory while smurfing. I was like "Wow how do you manage to make up so much bullshit about people". "Just gotta find the scum motives in plays".

Key to reading him is following: If he only posts stuff that only takes account of scum motives, and tries to paint things in the worst light possible, and doesn't try to clear townies on the way, he's likely scum. Forget activity, forget insecurity, these are not criteria for reading him.

So the reason I called him scum was precisely cause he didn't just try to figure me out, he called me mafia and said that my post must have been scum motivated, way too early in the day, later he backtracked saying that for him the point was all about me picking the SlOosh post, and suddenly he was fine.

This doesn't make sense cause even then, all the points about me sidetracking, and the post looking scum tryhard, should still stand for him regardless of me picking SlOosh's post.

So HF can definitely be one of the scum we're looking for. But currently I'm not willing to talk to him cause I don't want this thread to become unreadable.

On July 30 2014 22:54 Vivax wrote:


I am not able to put that checkmark confidently, but I'm not able to scumread him either cause I don't feel the posts he made are just there to make him look like he's talking. He posted stuff he seems to care about, and even though it can be summarized as 1. setup opinion, 2. opinion on me and HF, 3. opinion on Obi and 4. telling batsnacks to calm down, I have the feeling that those are simply the topics he's caring and interested about and not just some scum trying to look like he's active.

That said I'd tentatively lean town on Damdred.

On July 30 2014 23:30 Vivax wrote:


I don't know Damdred's scum meta, he never rolled it, but I can tell that this game he doesn't look different from the others, and as said, it's somehow of a gut read based on the topics he chooses and how he talks about them. Don't really think I can persuade you further than this with more objective arguments, but if you find anything scummy besides "tries to post a lot in a scummy way", which is just as subjective, feel free to tell me about it. For now we will have to agree to disagree.

On July 31 2014 00:34 raynpelikoneet wrote:
Damdred is most likely not mafia.

On July 31 2014 00:36 raynpelikoneet wrote:

Because he always looks scummy. There is nothing he has said that makes him mafia. He is new (i think?) and i would think he would look REALLY scummy in case he actually was scum.

nvm i changed my mind you are probably town too.

On July 31 2014 00:54 raynpelikoneet wrote:

No i really do think he is town. At least he has given some reads which i would not expect him to do as mafia regardless of Holyflare's & Vivax' alignments. That's not how i think new mafia would talk about the situation.

Do you think there is any way why Palmar as town calls Vivax town?

On July 31 2014 01:00 raynpelikoneet wrote:
Setup discussion is useless and boring. Scum want to discuss the setup because you don't need to actually say anything game related. That's why i originally scumread you.

On July 31 2014 01:04 raynpelikoneet wrote:

JAT i don't like this answer because i asked YOU, right now, to answer this.

On July 31 2014 01:12 Vivax wrote:
JAT tell me more how you feel about me saying that it might be indicative of you being scum when you look at people so critically I townread rather quickly.

Do you think this reasoning is scummy or do you understand where I come from, regardless of whether I'm wrong or not.

On July 31 2014 01:40 MysteryMeat1 wrote:
@Ritoky, i was reading through the thread, and had you as either scum or a power role ^^

I would probably put JAT as someone who i would potentially blow up, when asked for a suggestion on who to blow up, he told you to just choose the lurker you hate the most. Theres 10 pages of thread responses, and instead of taking a guess at someone who he thinks is playing scummy, he goes with a play that imo is too safe. From my perspective its a mafia who is trying to get a mislynch on someone, without coming off as scummy.

as for my second person to hit, i would choose someone from the lurkers ^^

huehuehue

On July 31 2014 01:47 MysteryMeat1 wrote:
Well, I think damdred is town based off the previous game i've played with him, and i believe the only reason you don't like rayn is because he told you damdred was ton. I don't agree with either of the people on your scum list.

On July 31 2014 01:55 ritoky wrote:
tick tock motherfuckers.

seeing a lot of posting, and not much scum reading; plz step it up.

On July 31 2014 02:12 raynpelikoneet wrote:

I think sinani would not goto "fuck you all - see you tomorrow" mode as mafia.
JAT would not call me scum as mafia.

On July 31 2014 02:13 ObiWanShinobi wrote:


Did you read MM1's last game?

On July 31 2014 02:15 ritoky wrote:


regardless of if his claim about having time is true or not, do you believe he would try that little as mafia?

On July 31 2014 02:19 raynpelikoneet wrote:
JAT why did you call Vivax out for his read on Damdred but not me?

On July 31 2014 02:21 MysteryMeat1 wrote:
Your list included people who i was townreading, why wouldnt i find you scummy for trying to lynch people i think are town

On July 31 2014 02:25 ObiWanShinobi wrote:


http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/461330-noir-mini-mafia-chapter-2

Read and understand who exactly you're dealing with.

On July 31 2014 02:31 MysteryMeat1 wrote:
Damdred is town cause thats damdreds town play, i wouldnt go as far to say that rayn is super towny, but from my perspective the only reason your scumreading rayn is cause he defended damdred. I could be wrong on this but thats what i see. These are the reasons i think your scummy.

As for that game you linked, other town voted on BH as well, i even told people not to vote on him. Thats al im going to say on that matter.

On July 31 2014 02:35 batsnacks wrote:


Jat is mafia I would bet your life on it.

Back to work.

On July 31 2014 02:36 ObiWanShinobi wrote:


Do you get the feeling that MM is hiding anything in his posts? I see a relatively strong desire to contribute, despite the fact that I don't agree with what he's saying.

On July 31 2014 02:39 raynpelikoneet wrote:
Can we talk about people who are actually likely to be mafia?
marv tell those people JAT is town so everyone ca shut the fuck up.

On July 31 2014 02:44 Vivax wrote:
I won't answer that question cause I don't read him as town, like you are implying cause I didn't put him into the list. He's null for the moment but did enough for me to not put him among the people not doing anything, and at least gave some opinions on the matters at hand, marv isn't the guy I feel confident reading early on anyway.

On July 31 2014 03:12 Vivax wrote:


And where is my mafia agenda in all of this? That list post was a spontaneous courtesy to tell the thread where I stand, if I didn't include marv for reasons that are my reasons and transparent enough for everyone to see, then you still have to tell me how what I did was scummy. All you're saying is "You didn't have good reasons to not include marv herpaderp", what you aren't saying is how specifically this is supposed to make me scum. Is marv my scumbuddy and I'm trying to keep my hands off of him? Cause that would be the closest you would have to a real reason for scumreading me for what I did or did not.

On July 31 2014 03:23 Vivax wrote:


If anything you're too dumb to see I'm town for all the other shit I did, so I'm not going to explicate it further and just let you do your own thing. Pick a side tomorrow when I call for a rayn vs me or a HF vs me and don't bother me further.

I didn't include marv cause he did more than all the other people I included as not doing anything, the reason is that simple. I've seen posts and opinions from marv, I didn't see them from the others. Period, now stop giving more importance to rayn's awful arguments than they deserve.

On July 31 2014 04:05 raynpelikoneet wrote:
Also points 2-4 had not happened when you called me scum so is this another Titanic III ? ^_^

On July 31 2014 04:12 raynpelikoneet wrote:

It was also the game where he called someone mafia and then gave reasons that happened after he called them mafia.
like on me here. the only reason that could be even semi-legit he can't reason is which happened before he called me mafia.
other reasons are just bad.

On July 31 2014 04:47 slOosh wrote:
That unlurk timing. Heh.


I think that you are unreasonably uncooperative this game. This is my perception rather than an objective statement. I know that as scum you can play a "cleaner" game. So what looks scummy without being scum? Traitor, which the previous iteration of this setup had included.

It's not that far of a stretch. Could you be an uncooperative town? Perhaps. It's just ... I guess I think more highly of your town play.

On July 31 2014 04:58 slOosh wrote:

The logic proceeds thus:

Vivax is playing in a way that I construe as strange, perhaps scummy.
I played in a game (Storm 2) where he played scum, and he played more "normal".
Vivax is playing strange, but has the capacity to play not-strange as scum. What could explain this discrepancy?
The former setup of this game included a traitor.
Perhaps Vivax is the traitor, which would explain the strange behavior.

That's basically my thought process. I'm still talking to him because I could just be wrong, but that's my tentative read.

On July 31 2014 05:15 Vivax wrote:


You just have to look from the start of the conversation between HF and me, what kush wrote about HF's points, rayn's entrance, and SlOosh being on the sidetracks playing support for them.

It looks crazy at glance, but I'm telling you that at least HF and rayn have more than enough capabilities to be such active scum. Don't be fooled into thinking that just cause they're active means they aren't scum, and the scum must be among the inactives.

What you will see is them covering each other's backs against a lone guy pushing them as scum, which is the good way of playing scum. Active scum that takes control of the thread and gets townread for their activity and not scumread for the false accusations they use to get mislynches is a one way road to a loss.

______________________________________________________________________________________________________

Disclaimer: HF, rayn and SlOosh, don't reply to this message unless you talk to other people cause I won't answer your questions or rebuttals.

On July 31 2014 05:26 Vivax wrote:


It's okay it will look much better once I get one of them to flip.
And if they're town and I'm wrong they should be among the earlier NK's.

D1 is always a mess, but I hope that I will be proven correct when we have more information, and that people will remember what I said.

Is there anyone in particular you want me to take a look at? Do you at least agree on ONE of the guys I'm scumreading?

On July 31 2014 05:45 Vivax wrote:


Who is he talking to here, Rayn, Palmar? JAT didn't make a list afaik.

On July 31 2014 06:00 Holyflare wrote:
He's not even a bomber don't even acknowledge it

On July 31 2014 05:52 ritoky wrote:
Approx 1 hr out from the decision:

some general candidates:

batsnacks - policy for wanting to insta-duel
holyflare - don't like his morbid "i gonna die tonight" whiny post
marv - policy talk of how duels should go into disappearing
yamato77 - ppl i read as town say yo dis guy could be mafia for 0 effort
fuba - for not posting a damn thing

a couple of others are out on the fringes, and could potentially make a late surge.

On July 31 2014 08:10 Vivax wrote:


No, he wanted me dead and would have created a town vs town situation. There's more behind that kill than the eyes see at first glance.

On July 31 2014 19:24 Palmar wrote:


There's something about this post. It feels like overjustification.

On July 31 2014 19:28 Palmar wrote:
Like tbh, if you're mafia I wouldn't blame you for just doing a scumclaim and trolling for a bit, that might even be the best play in the situation because it stops me from doing what I'll otherwise do which is force you and I to analyze just about every person in the game. If you stop playing now as mafia, you'll leave no links to teammates and this day will be essentially wasted for information, although the end result is a mafia killed.

However if you're town, I expect you to do what you can. You have 36-ish hours to solve the game with me, let's do it.

On July 31 2014 23:57 marvellosity wrote:
Yep :p

<3 ambiguity.

On August 01 2014 00:53 kushm4sta wrote:


it completely clears him lol.

On August 01 2014 01:15 batsnacks wrote:


If you believe discussing this isn't going to gain us anything, you shouldn't have given an opinion. What makes you think they would do this as scum?

On August 01 2014 02:28 yamato77 wrote:
2 scum dead and I'm not even playing

dunno if I even have to

On August 01 2014 02:53 slOosh wrote:
Strange that scum wouldn't use janitor powers n0 though, to obfuscate the Vivax / rayn / HolyFlare dealio.

Maybe ... roleblock ... I dunno.

Anyhows by arbitrary methods I'm working with this kind of list:
fuba
MysteryMeat1
yamato77
Vivax (???)

Who belongs in this list? Who doesn't belong? Discuss.

On August 01 2014 04:01 sinani206 wrote:
Well... that was interesting.
Things that come to mind after ctrl-clicking everybody's filters:
kush is town. sloosh neutral at the moment. Damdred probably leaning scum right now purely by gut, but no one knows what his scum is like so that's not something I want to commit to unless I'm sure.
Don't understand what ritoky was trying to accomplish.
Not worrying about Palmar until much later, obviously.

Honestly, this game is such a shitfest that I'm glad I got to skip a bunch of it, and no one in this game has done anything more townie than even I have, besides die. Wow that sentence makes no sense. Basically, anyone could be scum from where I'm standing.

I unclaim scum by the way.

On August 01 2014 05:42 ritoky wrote:
hey hey hey, i am back.

bomb locked and loaded, anyone wanna sing their final song with me tonight?

On August 01 2014 06:19 batsnacks wrote:


I'm being serious this time I promise. I mean I could be wrong but I was serious about thinking they are mafia.

On August 01 2014 06:38 batsnacks wrote:


I haven't given reasons please don't drown yet.

On August 01 2014 18:41 Palmar wrote:
I really dc. If you guys can't figure this out from now on you deserve to lose. I've done my part.
bomb mm1 or fuba or someone else I haven't noticed. Also feel free to bomb yamato for being lazy asshole.

On August 02 2014 02:03 ObiWanShinobi wrote:
Btw, I told you mm1 was town.

Don't say I didn't warn you.

On August 02 2014 03:08 ObiWanShinobi wrote:
Actually:



MM1 hardclaimed a saving role.

So did ritoky really try to bomb me or did he just blow up MM1?

On August 02 2014 03:11 slOosh wrote:
I'm sure ritoky bombed MM1, and scum also shot MM1 for claiming medic or whatever. Hence the lack of KP.

Functionally speaking it doesn't actually matter if ritoky bombed you or not.

On August 02 2014 04:14 kushm4sta wrote:
because scum never bus right?
scum never bus in a game with no downside to busing. right?

hey you ungrateful fucks should be thankful that I saved you from the bored of deciding between two inactives.

On August 02 2014 04:15 kushm4sta wrote:
im certain damdred is scum.

On August 02 2014 04:24 fuba wrote:
@Vivax: yes, that's what I was offering. But it doesn't really matter anymore.

This actually makes it really unlikely that kush is scum, imo. If he's scum, then he just put himself up for lynch rather than have me (town) duel yamato (either MIA scumpartner or also town). I know that it wasn't decided to go with what I suggested yet, but it makes no sense for him to be scum when that option was on the table.

On August 02 2014 04:42 kushm4sta wrote:
so because he says "every post i make as a purpose" that means he think his inactive opinion is going to sway you??

Why can't busing be the purpose? Two scummy people who both look scummy, it's quite normal to bus.

On August 02 2014 04:46 batsnacks wrote:


This is a mafia post.

On August 02 2014 04:46 Vivax wrote:
Here's the deal:

Scum NK rayn after he scumread me, GK, yamato.

It got marv instantly owned, at least I think that the kill pushed Palmar to do that.

Therefore, the last scum is yamato. And since SlOosh mentioned it, last showdown game there was a traitor, so we could be dealing with 4 scum.

On August 02 2014 04:48 fuba wrote:

Why would scum!kush, who I got the feeling most people thought was town (myself included), put himself up for lynch just to save his mia scumbuddy? It makes no sense, particularly if they're both scum. Kush is selfish as scum, and this would be the opposite of selfish. It would be selfless AND stupid.

And no shit you don't know my alignment. That has no impact other than to further provide evidence of kush being town. In the case that I'm scum with kush, he sacrificed his more active presence for me, after I suggested myself as a lynch option for no reason whatsoever. In either case, scum!kush would be sacrificing himself for a far less active scummate, and is therefore town. (Of course, this is assuming that we would have gone with my proposition, which we didn't really get to find out since only one person really commented on it).

On August 02 2014 04:50 Vivax wrote:
Yamato can be a fucking leader when he's town, go read him in Storm. When he doesn't play he's mafia, simple as that.

On August 02 2014 04:52 Palmar wrote:
I think we should policy kush

On August 02 2014 04:56 fuba wrote:

Ohhh, that's the point of contention... I guess he isn't "sacrificing" himself. But he's putting himself in the spotlight for literally no purpose. Yamato and I are not worth saving if either of us are scum. What you're suggesting is that scum!kush, when he was previously looking town, launched a surprise duel on a townie either 1) for no reason, or 2) to delay a scum!yamato or scum!fuba lynch by a single day. And in the process he either gets himself lynched, or makes himself look really scummy for forcing a mislynch. I'm having massive trouble seeing any purpose for kush to do this as scum.

On August 02 2014 04:57 kushm4sta wrote:
wait so if vivax duels yamato, damdred can change himself with vivax so then it would be damdred v yamato...
how is that helpful to town

On August 02 2014 05:08 Vivax wrote:


I just want to get yamato out of the way asap. There's not much content to be had with still quite a few players so I don't know how having them post their final reads will change much.

We're dealing with a scum team that has been super unmotivated, so it will be simple. If there's one active left after we got rid of the inactive guys, then we have to find him with analysis.

One thing at a time though and the next one is yamato.

On August 02 2014 06:34 batsnacks wrote:


I do what I want. Try to stop me.

On August 02 2014 07:13 Palmar wrote:
Damdred's claim is too good too, and too chill for him, then again I think Kush isn't mafia either. I just think he's in over his head. Not everyone can be Palmar.

On August 03 2014 00:13 Vivax wrote:
Since it was kinda strange how he kept trying to find weaknesses in the claim while saying he believed him to be town.

On August 03 2014 00:28 kushm4sta wrote:
vivax, if "trying to find weaknesses in his claim" you mean i thought his power was useless to town and could belong to either alignment, then yes.

Except I looked at the last game and town had a similar role, ##ceasefire which stopped the duel, so that lead me to the conclusion that it's probably a town role.

On August 02 2014 19:56 Palmar wrote:
Kush-san must commit sudoku to keephis honor

On August 03 2014 15:57 yamato77 wrote:
unfortunately I think you'll all be sorely disappointed if you lynch me tomorrow

if only marv was here to tell me how bad I was playing, but alas, he's dead

On August 03 2014 13:46 sinani206 wrote:
Don't understand the unvote. Someone has to die. I may have had a scum lean on Damdred earlier but at this point I don't think he is lying. kush did a stupid and green is preferable over blue.
##Vote: kushm4sta

On August 08 2014 06:35 Palmar wrote:
oh god.

On August 08 2014 06:53 Damdred wrote:
Lol ill never be able to afk again i didn't have to do anything tbh sloosh and viv were so tunneled i had to shoot jat when i did he would of revisited me.

On August 08 2014 08:27 iamperfection wrote:
Jesus Christ the filter length of the entire mafia team was 6 pages.

On August 08 2014 08:42 Damdred wrote:
That's the thing i wasn't afk i was here the whole time waiting for talking god

On August 08 2014 08:48 Damdred wrote:
Fuck i can't tell if marv is being condescending or not