Detention Mafia

On May 27 2014 18:36 gobbledydook wrote:


??? Did you become crazy after getting ##Nuked in that other game?

On May 27 2014 18:41 gobbledydook wrote:


No I don't think that's a valid case, I think you're trolling.

On May 27 2014 11:38 jabberwockzerg wrote:
I don't quite follow your logic. You put me on mafia last game, and I screwed up about if that was posted or not, but that makes me mafia this game? No comprende

On May 27 2014 11:20 jabberwockzerg wrote:
Counter point: he could have been super into last game because he was mafia, and isn't as into being vanilla town.

On May 27 2014 23:15 sqrtofneg1 wrote:
I don't like palmar so far.
I do like fuba.

On May 27 2014 23:50 gobbledydook wrote:
Palmar I think there is actually a good motivation for him to say those words. If he had not read the last mafia qt to find out who was mafia and only relied on his memory and impressions, he would logically make that comment about differing playstyles. Sure what he said is factually incorrect but I believe it was an honest mistake.

On May 28 2014 00:21 jabberwockzerg wrote:
Just like this
I mean, I know this looks bad
but this really is a case of Hanlon's razor:
"Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity"

On May 28 2014 00:36 jabberwockzerg wrote:

Keenly, I was trying to think of everything, leaving no stone upturned. I guess I got trapped under one of these stones

On May 28 2014 01:24 27ninjabunnies wrote:



Help you as town or as generating the lower tabby?

And if as town, how would the concealing of this information be helpful to you?

On May 28 2014 01:24 mderg wrote:
I don´t like this lynch at all. I don´t see what he did as alignment indicative because it doesn´t really make sense as either town or scum. So why is it more likely to be done by scum than by town?


fuba: Weren´t you against this lynch? Why the vote on jabberwockzerg now?

On May 28 2014 06:57 sqrtofneg1 wrote:
Actually, now that I think of it, it would yield more information to kill off jwz.
##Unvote
##Vote: jabberwockzerg

On May 28 2014 07:42 sqrtofneg1 wrote:
My point is this: Huge bandwagons always seem to be town bandwagons.
(cruisette mislynch in liii, cav mislynch in liv, sweetfrost mislynch and yellow suspection in lv, OdinofPergo in golden sun)

Jwz is my top scum read so far.

I was considering pushing a palmar lynch because he's my second scum read, and huge bandwagons always seem to be wrong.

On May 28 2014 08:42 Meapak_Ziphh wrote:

You've thrown around a lot of suspicions this game. Instead of making a vague statement like this, interpret what it means. If you leave it vague like this, it makes it seem like you're just trying to throw dirt on him without actually having to take a stand. Instead tell us why this is a problem, maybe provide some examples if you're gonna cite his meta.

On May 28 2014 09:20 jabberwockzerg wrote:
13) Palmar
A little scummy, which has been covered but not really at the forefront of my mind.

On May 28 2014 10:34 jabberwockzerg wrote:
Top Scum: Palamar
Just started out weird with the whole ninjabunnies vote and never really did anything
top town: any one of the people initially defending me, as most Mafia would want to turn the town against me ASAP

On May 28 2014 13:55 slOosh wrote:

Palmar could you please explain your MZ read more?

On May 28 2014 20:37 Chromatically wrote:

hue hue hue

Palmar, you still feeling good about this lynch?


Amiko, I don't see you pushing anything. Who do you want to lynch and what's your read on jabber?

On May 28 2014 01:14 jabberwockzerg wrote:

Lovely.
I was trying to get the game moving along, I was pretty pumped to start interrogating and scum reading, which isn't how I acted last game, when I was scum.
Lying about who was scum last game, I was trying to conceal information. I didn't realize that last game's roles were known, it would be beneficial for me if no one knew I was Mafia, just because there would be no real patterns of my play, and I could remain a wild card, which I thought could help me later.

On May 28 2014 21:54 Chromatically wrote:
So I agree that he's done absolutely everything wrong, but I don't really get "too scummy to be scum". Like he's done everything I would expect scum to do in his position. What do you think he would be doing differently as mafia? Or what about it makes you doubt that he's mafia as opposed to just sealing the deal?

On May 28 2014 22:07 mderg wrote:

I don´t get how defending jabber like I did would make any sense, if we were both scum. That would be like the worst mafia play ever. Me being scum only makes sense, if jabber flips town. I could see mafia reasons for that. But hard defending a scummate who will almost certainly be lynched anyway doesn´t seem like scum play.

On May 29 2014 07:09 fuba wrote:
Looked at gobbledydook first, since his filter is shorter XD

His initial reaction to bunnies' case, as well as his follow-up reaction to Palmar seem to indicate that he didn't read the entire case against jabber before disagreeing with it (twice), which I don't feel bodes well for him. I think his jump on the wagon also seems kinda strange, since the reason is kinda lame. I mean, there were plenty of ways in which jabber "admitted guilt", and the fact that he said a stone fell on him is the least of those. It's like he's not really thinking about the game. Problem with this is that it could just be general laziness, rather than him being scum.

On May 29 2014 09:00 Amiko wrote:


Why?

If we all have the same primary scum wagon, I think it's good to see how people think on secondary scumwagons.

I'll grant the information isn't too reliable (since the secondary wagons don't have much chance of being lynched) but I think it's good to see people making cases on other players.

On May 29 2014 09:32 HaruRH wrote:


That doesn't to me. In fact, I actually read the whole rules and roles because it may actually be important in the future. He was pushing a strategy with vigi, but failed to realise vigi dont exist. Everyone knows mafia was given the setup. Dont use ignorance as an argument, it is weak. What it simply tells me is that the 2 things on his mind were 'vigi' and 'role setup'.

On May 28 2014 16:49 Meapak_Ziphh wrote:

Palmar that's honestly one of the worst posts I've ever seen you make and does nothing to change my opinion on your alignment. It seems as though you called me out, misjudged the thread's perception of me, and are now trying to back out of the read.

On May 30 2014 08:07 HaruRH wrote:
Palmar - you still did not address my point of why did you initially strongly agree with the bandwagon, but fall off later? Stronger cases were put out against him at that point.

On May 30 2014 08:19 sqrtofneg1 wrote:

So are you saying that you think that all of the people who didn't vote on jwz is town?

On May 30 2014 08:20 sqrtofneg1 wrote:

Then explain what you mean please.

On May 30 2014 08:07 HaruRH wrote:
Palmar - you still did not address my point of why did you initially strongly agree with the bandwagon, but fall off later? Stronger cases were put out against him at that point.

On May 30 2014 08:22 sqrtofneg1 wrote:

I'm not forcing you to.
But I don't really get what you're saying.
You call yourself town b/c you didn't stay on the jwz wagon, and you say that not everyone who went off the jwz wagon is town?

On May 30 2014 21:41 gobbledydook wrote:


My strongest read so far is fuba because of the way he's accusing me.
I have skimmed through the sloosh arguments, and I'll come up with a detailed read like this one later.

On May 30 2014 23:34 HaruRH wrote:
This is getting worse and worse.

Firstly, my reads on palmar was distrupted because he did not read the op, which I assumed everyone to do so.

Secondly, much of my reads on MZ is attributed to him forgetting to vote - last minute vote wws what I was banking on, but since it's a mistake now, I have no case against him.

I will go with the flow for now until someone else piques my interest again.

## unvote
## vote: slOosh

On May 30 2014 23:51 gobbledydook wrote:


Makes good arguments, asks lots of good questions, basically the same reasons Amiko is town.

On June 01 2014 08:43 Amiko wrote:
Please explain this (Palmar & fuba):

How do you not vote slOosh when nearly everything suspicious about M_Z also applies to slOosh, plus slOosh is scummier in other ways?

@Palmar:
You should also join my lynch on slOosh because fuba's play today is weird and he is pushing M_Z - if you don't see that I can argue about it.

On June 01 2014 08:57 Amiko wrote:
Palmar:
Is slOosh "too scummy to be scum" ?
Like do you agree slOosh is scummier, but you want to go M_Z because people are voting for slOosh?

On May 30 2014 16:23 Palmar wrote:
I think I could throw my weight behind a sloosh vote.

I have a feeling the mafia team is sloosh, MZ, Gobbley

On June 03 2014 01:29 Amiko wrote:
@Palmar:
I don't really expect you to push a lynch other than M_Z, and that's fine. But, I don't like that you haven't really offered anything or weighed in on anything unrelated to M_Z for a while.
Do you have any thoughts on Haru / Alakaslam / fuba / you would share?

On June 03 2014 09:30 Amiko wrote:
@Palmar
Are there other games you've played where you are lazy in a way similar to this?

On June 04 2014 08:39 Meapak_Ziphh wrote:

My advice is look at people who didn't post a lot today, I know that's a lot of people but scum had no reason to do anything because of the easy ML

On June 04 2014 09:40 Amiko wrote:
M_Z what did your comment
"Palmar is my best bet for scum since that would balance things out with me being town"
mean?

On June 04 2014 15:48 Amiko wrote:


Btw any thoughts on this post from Palmar? It seemed a little different to me.

On June 05 2014 16:37 mderg wrote:
I´m VT.

Since there are no counterclaims there´s no reason to doubt your claims. With 3 confirmed town and me also being town it only leaves Palmar and fuba.

##vote: Palmar

On June 05 2014 10:13 fuba wrote:
##Vote: Palmar

I can agree with the first half of the lynch list XD

On May 27 2014 18:43 Palmar wrote:


I'm not, why do you think I'm trolling.

Granted, I'm only about 2 pages or so into the game as we speak, + skimming Ninja's filter. But I feel pretty good about this. Could you elaborate on why you think I'm trolling? Or at least if there is something you don't understand in my case, ask for an explanation?

On May 28 2014 01:50 Palmar wrote:


I like this guy now.

No longer mafia.

On May 30 2014 05:07 Palmar wrote:
Other things.

i looks slightly less good, but I still think he's town.
Ninja too, I feel like her activity is dropping, or I'm not noticing much useful come out of her.
Chrom looked really good yesterday.
Amiko looks pretty town for now. He thinks I'm town for the right reasons. (This is important, mafia members know I'm town, he seems to have figured out that I'm town by actually reading the thread and analyzing it). If you ever clear this guy, follow him. He seems to be really good, but I hope he's really good town, not really good mafia
mderg has that one post that screams town (I hope he's mafia so I can be like super impressed ). I'm going with town for him
fuba looks better than I initially thought, he's sort of null-ish to me now, but I'd not lynch him tomorrow. I liked how he responded to me erroneously calling him out, so I'm backing slightly off on scumread. But he's still in the bottom half of the table.
sloosh is just meh. I have no idea tbh.
Slam is also meh. Both of them (sloosh and slam) are good cop checks. This is the first game I've actually thought to myself "slam looks sorta townie here", so that's making me nervous, as I fully admit I can't read the guy.
MZ is mafia
gobbley I don't know. I thought he was town at first, but he had really low content last time I checked his filter. So idk.

Lynch MZ tomorrow, pressure sloosh, fuba, gobbley. Slam or any of the previously mentioned are pretty good checks.

Also because most of you haven't played with me before. I usually super miss one mafia. So don't follow my reads blindly even if they give you 1-2 mafia.

On June 01 2014 08:54 Palmar wrote:


I think fuba is town, I don't care if his play is weird.

This sloosh lynch is going too easily. We should do MZ.

On May 30 2014 16:23 Palmar wrote:
I think I could throw my weight behind a sloosh vote.

I have a feeling the mafia team is sloosh, MZ, Gobbley

On May 28 2014 22:09 Palmar wrote:


*clap clap*

I hope you're mafia because if you are this post is amazing.

I'm giving you a townread for this.

On May 28 2014 22:09 Palmar wrote:
I hope you're mafia because if you are this post is amazing.

On June 05 2014 19:04 HaruRH wrote:


I doubt we need a case now to choose who is mafia. Given that amiko and sqrt are not lying (no counterclaims by anyone, thus they both shouldn't be lying) and given that amiko proves I am VT, this creates a bubble of town around us 3 and anyone else have the remote chance of being mafia. There is no way that either of us 4 (other than sqrt and amiko) will die this night since unless they kill off both of them, tomorrow will be their funeral.

mderg have the chance of being mafia, but we can discuss this tomorrow when we choose between fuba and mderg. So far, even though I recognise that fuba is a better lynch target, we still need to lynch you as more people suspect you as mafia over others.

On June 05 2014 19:07 HaruRH wrote:
At that point in time, slosh and gobble were the huge suspects for scum. It is wise to quickly cut off all ties with them to protect the remaining scum, that is the mafia rb. It would be a bad mafia play to not do these that you mentioned - if you didn't do them, you're scumread.

On June 05 2014 19:14 HaruRH wrote:


Why would you want to protect gobble? Gobble would certainly be lynched d3 if he did not modkill himself.

On June 05 2014 19:16 mderg wrote:

You think fuba would be the best lynch target? If so, you should probably try to push that lynch. It´s not like you have to be in favor of lynching Palmar just because the majority wants to lynch him.

On May 30 2014 22:26 Palmar wrote:


Better idea: find me 5 people tho you strongly consider to be town.

On June 05 2014 19:22 mderg wrote:
Some thoughts on Palmar:

I didn´t really like Palmar´s play at the start, he voted bunnies for questionable reasons, it seemed like he was trolling but he said that he wasn´t. The reasons he later gave for that were kinda meh.

On June 05 2014 19:22 mderg wrote:
He was strongly in favor of lynching jwz and MZ and was wrong on every lynch so far. While that in itself is not a big tell, I got the feeling that he didn´t look beyond these two scumreads and just wanted to secure these misslynches.
What speaks in his favor is this:

He didn´t really push sloosh and gobble, though. Especially going against the sloosh lynch was strange. Amiko´s case on sloosh looked better than Palmar´s case on MZ but Palmar stayed on MZ because his case was "more slam dunk".

On June 05 2014 19:22 mderg wrote:
The MZ lynch itself isn´t really alignment indicative because about everyone wanted to lynch him and he certainly did look like mafia.

On June 05 2014 19:52 mderg wrote:

1) I agree that MZ looked scummy but I still think Amiko´s case on sloosh was stronger than your case on MZ. This may be because you have played much more games with MZ but for me the sloosh case was stronger.

2) That reasoning kinda applies to all 3 possible lynch candidates. I could have changed my vote from sloosh to MZ on day 2 and fuba pressured gobble pretty hard at some point. So that doesn´t work stronger in your favor than for anyone else.

On June 05 2014 23:11 Amiko wrote:
First let's talk about why Palmar's points are unconvincing.

1) Palmar's vote on ninjabunnies means nothing
Mafia make cases they don't intend to push, and mafia talk to each other.
Even if that were not true, I don't think Palmar gets any credit for this given that he didn't actually push or do anything with that case, anyway.

Take a look at ninjabunnies' reaction - she's the one being "attacked" and she doesn't care because the case is so obviously meaningless
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/451317-detention-mafia?page=9#175
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/451317-detention-mafia?page=9#177

On June 05 2014 23:11 Amiko wrote:
(2) Palmar hasn't actually bussed his team
Palmar may have argued with gobble and said he would support a slOosh lynch.
However, those words are not consistent with his action.

On day 2, Palmar resisted a slOosh lynch in favor of M_Z.
Further, look at his discussion that day.
Even if Palmar thought M_Z was a better lynch, he doesn't weigh in on slOosh except to say that he would vote for him. He doesn't actually vote for him, doesn't really explain why M_Z is a better lynch. Although he says his lynch on M_Z is a slam dunk (despite it being weak) he doesn't even attempt to push his case. When he tries to convince people to move to M_Z, he doesn't discuss the merits (the "slam dunk") part at all, and only goes with the WIFOM "too easy" argument.

Further, after telling people to vote for their top scumread on day 1, he tells people not to vote for the "too easy" lynch on day 2. To me, this all looks like someone who is eager to get votes off a scum partner.

If Palmar was town and thought slOosh would be mafia, his day 2 should have spent trying to get reads to distinguish between the players and figure out which was more scummy. He should have at least weighed in on the slOosh case and provided some explanation.

On June 05 2014 23:11 Amiko wrote:
If Palmar actually thought the M_Z case was better, why was he so inactive day 2?
Why didn't he try to get anyone to join the losing wagon he was so sure about?
Why didn't he talk about the merits of slOosh at all?
He doesn't even say anything like "If M_Z does flip town, slOosh dies next." He doesn't talk with anyone who begins to townread slOosh to try to convince him otherwise.

Palmar may have said he doubted slOosh, but his play reflects a strong desire not to lynch slOosh.

On June 05 2014 23:11 Amiko wrote:
(3) Palmar defending fuba doesn't mean anything to me
First off, Palmar's point here misreads the situation.


At the time we were talking, the wagons were M_Z and slOosh. Fuba was not the most likely person for town to get behind lynching.
Second, this isn't really defending fuba at all. It's just admitting someone's play is weird and still calling them town.
If anything, it leaves the door open for Palmar to try to mislynch fuba later (because fuba's play is weird).

On June 05 2014 23:11 Amiko wrote:
(4) lol



I actually expected scum-Palmar to make this point.
Even if it wasn't a terrible point (and it is) it doesn't actually matter because mderg and fuba were lazy too.

It also doesn't explain your inactive play on d2, where you should have been quite active since two people you suspected were on the chopping block.

More in a bit :3

On June 05 2014 23:23 Amiko wrote:
I'll also mention that I think it's more likely I would be roleblocked or killed D1 since I was playing pretty towny, yet I wasn't. I think townreading Palmar may have helped with that

On June 05 2014 23:25 Amiko wrote:
Give a good explanation for your day 2.

On June 05 2014 23:25 Amiko wrote:
You should have been talking about both M_Z and slOosh since you claim you thought both were scum.

On June 05 2014 23:25 Amiko wrote:
You should have been questioning these players to decide which was the better lynch.

On June 05 2014 23:25 Amiko wrote:
Explain how you think your case on M_Z was a slam dunk.

On June 05 2014 23:25 Amiko wrote:
Explain why you didn't push your "slam dunk" case.

On June 05 2014 23:25 Amiko wrote:
Explain why you were not upset the "slam dunk" case was not getting traction.

On June 05 2014 23:25 Amiko wrote:
Explain why when you started asking people to move to M_Z, you didn't talk about the great case you had.

On June 05 2014 23:32 Amiko wrote:
And no, you are the top lynch because there are three people unconfirmed and
(1) you are the scummiest of the three
(2) mderg is the least scummy of the three, so it doesn't matter to me a whole lot whether you or fuba dies first.

I'd rather kill you first though, since I think if we finish the game tonight probably I don't end the game dead :3

There is also the small possibility that if we leave you alive until tomorrow you will bamboozle Haru into voting for mderg for no good reason.

On June 05 2014 23:49 Amiko wrote:


Palmar could have switched until his play at the end of the day. With (I think) less than two hours left, Palmar finally gave some comments that distinguished between the two lynches: he said that the case on M_Z was better (it wasn't) and that the slOosh lynch was "too easy" (it wasn't). After he committed to those comments, he could not switch back to slOosh without looking very scummy or going into my "trap" comment.
Given how close the votes were, I don't think he would want to, anyway.

On June 05 2014 23:49 Amiko wrote:


I don't understand this point.
Let's say you are scum and gobble didn't get killed. In this case, gobble votes M_Z over his scumpartner.

At that point, it'd look like this - we'll assume for the moment ninjabunnies still gets shot:

---

1) Chromatically Vanilla Town Shot Night 1
2) 27ninjabunnies (Vanilla Town Shot Night 2?)
3) Meapak_Ziphh Vanilla Town Lynched Day 2
4) jabberwockzerg Vanilla Town Lynched Day 1
5) slOosh
6) gobbledydook
7) Palmar
8) mderg
9) fuba
10) HaruRH
11) sqrtofneg1
12) Amiko
13) Alakaslam

---

In what way does that foreclose a winning strategy?
You'd be in great shape.

On June 06 2014 00:13 Amiko wrote:


Make your case on mderg already.

On June 06 2014 00:16 Amiko wrote:
You ignore the point of the votes.
You don't have to have your votes split d2 because there are still plenty of wagons you can unite behind.

You can try to attack the people who swapped for a mislynch (Haru, sqrt, fuba)
And, you can bus slOosh the next day if you need to.

It doesn't matter if all three of you vote M_Z.

On June 06 2014 00:19 Amiko wrote:


Work on this.

On June 06 2014 00:19 Amiko wrote:


I think this falls under the subjective category you mentioned earlier. Not persuasive.

On June 06 2014 00:18 Amiko wrote:
The "trap" comment was where I encouraged you to move onto slOosh and pretend that you were only voting on M_Z as a trap to try to get mafia to join the M_Z wagon. I didn't expect you to do it and regretted the post.

On June 06 2014 00:34 Amiko wrote:
Here is more reason why I want to lynch Palmar-


This is a post from Palmar from night one. At this point, Palmar is convinced that M_Z is scum.
Palmar quotes the post from day one. At that point, there was still time to push someone other than jabber.

So, Palmar had already gone through the things that he felt made M_Z scum on day 1, but he doesn’t push this until after jabber has been mislynched.

On May 28 2014 17:05 Palmar wrote:
Where do you get the feeling I'm backing out of the read? That's super interesting you somehow get the feeling I'm backing out of anything with this post.

On May 28 2014 21:11 Palmar wrote:


I don't know.

I think we have to lynch him. He's flailing so much and saying all the wrong things even after coming back to the thread makes it hard to think he will 100% flip mafia. If he is mafia he is not receiving any help from coaches or teammates.



This post specifically is so bad. If he is town this game it would have been directly in his benefit to make known he was mafia in the last game and then proceed to play like a townie. There is no benefit in concealing information about your playstyle as a townie. I'm not 100% caught up on the game so I don't know if he elaborated on how being a wild card might help him.

But the point is, he's doing that thing where he is almost too scummy to be scum. So if we get a slam-dunk case today I'm all ears. We actually might have one with MZ's overreaction and misinterpretation of my post against him, but we need to let it play out.

Thing is, too scummy to be scum is really hard to deal with. To my knowledge he's not providing any useful reads or cases, he sheeped i on the case on me with almost no explanation other than my initial vote being weird. Could he be a deer in headlights? Yes, absolutely.

But I'm not sure I want to gamble the game on just thinking he's too bad to be mafia. Maybe the explanation is simple and he is just mafia who fucked up. I haven't really read the setup but if we have a vigi it might be a good thing to not lynch him and shoot him.

On May 28 2014 22:06 Palmar wrote:


The "too scummy to be scum" concept is a very fragile and shitty, but surprisingly often correct thing that happens.

The idea is basically that if he is mafia, his team knows he made a blunder, so they would help him devise a strategy to come back, or bus him.

if bus: I'd expect him to just shut up and not try to come back. Now I know I'm town but other people don't so this is weak from everyone else's perspective, but why on earth is he piling shit on me if his team is busing him. That is basically just helping me gain influcence in town. It's just bad play if he's mafia to give credit to a townie.

if they try to save him: I'd expect him/his team/mafia coach to have come up with a better plan than what he has posted. His arguments are just straight up awful, If the mafia team can't collectively think up some better defense than this well.. I just don't want to believe that.

And thus, he's being soooo awful that it's possible he's too scummy to be scum. He's blatantly wrong. He's hardly trying to cover up how awful his stuff is.

But, there's also the chance that he's just acting on his own, he messed up, he's not thinking long term and thought maybe a wagon could be built on me, and in that case he's just mafia who's playing badly.

Like I don't really like or see the point in speculating on this thing. If we have a slam dunk case on someone I'll support it, but currently I see no other outcome for today than lynching him.

On June 06 2014 00:45 Amiko wrote:
Point to where you became sure about M_Z.

On June 06 2014 01:01 Amiko wrote:
This just reflects why the point is good.

If the posts confirmed your suspicions, they should have content in them that leads you to read him as scum.

If the posts had content that turned your suspicions into a slam dunk, then you should be using them in your case.
+ Show Spoiler +

On June 06 2014 00:07 Amiko wrote:


You misunderstand why I posted bunnies reaction.
The post is that your case was not seen as serious, and when you pressed it people responded (as they should) doubting its sincerity. Bunnies' reaction just goes to show how little pressure your case provided. Anyway, you have nothing to lose by making that kind of case as mafia, maybe if you're lucky she OMGUSes you and you use that to try to support the lynch.

On June 06 2014 00:07 Amiko wrote:

Part of my case was that slOosh was M_Z, except more scummy.
If you thought my case was right, you shouldn't have been on M_Z.
If you didn't think that was correct, you didn't agree with me and should have tried to convince me on the merits.

On June 06 2014 00:07 Amiko wrote:


You misunderstand why I posted bunnies reaction.
The post is that your case was not seen as serious, and when you pressed it people responded (as they should) doubting its sincerity. Bunnies' reaction just goes to show how little pressure your case provided. Anyway, you have nothing to lose by making that kind of case as mafia, maybe if you're lucky she OMGUSes you and you use that to try to support the lynch.

On June 06 2014 00:07 Amiko wrote:

Part of my case was that slOosh was M_Z, except more scummy.
If you thought my case was right, you shouldn't have been on M_Z.
If you didn't think that was correct, you didn't agree with me and should have tried to convince me on the merits.

On June 06 2014 00:07 Amiko wrote:


I scumhunt even when I think I have caught scum.

Anyway, you start pushing for M_Z only after fuba has made a case for people to switch to M_Z. I think you could accurately predict sqrt and Haru could be moved (because I thought they could be moved too).

On June 06 2014 00:07 Amiko wrote:

Why not? You just say "I guess I was wrong, so it must be XYZ"

Anyway, for all you know, the cop has no checks. It's possible that the cop checked players who had died. It's possible that you roleblocked the cop on days the cop would check living players. And, you don't know who the cop or medic are. If you are lucky, maybe Slam will flip as one of the blue roles.
For all you know, your strategy is a winning strategy because it's possible there will only be one blue (who you could kill tonight).

The idea that you didn't make a winning strategy is incorrect because it considers information you did not know. Given the information you did know, your strategy was fine.

On June 06 2014 00:07 Amiko wrote:


If you are town, you certainly risked the game with your play on day 2 and day 3. It doesn't matter.
The game is at risk until it's over. That's the nature of the game.
(Anyway play has been pretty great, I can't believe you guys didn't roleblock me n2)

On June 06 2014 01:35 Amiko wrote:
Before I respond, let me get this straight:

You suspected M_Z on day 1, but were not sure.
You became sure during night 1.
You became sure because of M_Z's inactivity.

On June 06 2014 01:36 sqrtofneg1 wrote:
Well, he is playing right now.

On June 06 2014 01:49 Amiko wrote:
(I think you probably realized this, and that's why rereading is a new reason)

On June 06 2014 01:49 Amiko wrote:
My point on M_Z is pretty simple.

On Day 1, you say that you suspect M_Z. At this time, the case is not a slam dunk. This is your excuse for not pushing M_Z on Day 1 as an alternative for jabber.
On Night 1, you become certain that M_Z is scum.

This suggests that something between your post Day 1 and your post Night 1 made you feel M_Z was confirmed scum.

On June 06 2014 01:54 sqrtofneg1 wrote:
Well, here's something that I don't get.
If you're not mafia, why aren't you pushing people who you think are mafia?
If I were you, I'd be trying to get everyone to vote for fuba.

On June 06 2014 01:54 HaruRH wrote:

Wait a minute, I dont want you to shut up. Continue on, your overreaction is fun to watch.

On June 06 2014 02:02 sqrtofneg1 wrote:

Here's the thing.
It's either you or fuba. I'm lynching both you and fuba. The only question remaining is who to lynch first.

I believe that you're a more competent player, and that if you were mafia, it'd be easier for you rather than fuba to wiggle your way out of a lynch.
So you're my target today.
If you're not mafia, it's fuba.

On June 06 2014 02:05 Amiko wrote:
To me, the quotes posts are you attempting to squirm new reasons into a lynch (inactivity, rereading) that your posts at the time do not reflect.

On June 06 2014 02:07 Amiko wrote:
Fuba can have his turn, but you are online now and responding.

On June 06 2014 02:28 Amiko wrote:
Whether you are town or scum, you have an incentive to stay and respond.
If you want to go AFK go for it, but I don't think it'll help you.

On June 06 2014 02:32 Amiko wrote:


It's so clear you even skipped 7 and 9. (I don't care much about that but it is funny since it reflects you were reordering the 100% clear thoughts)

Why would I assume someone has good reasons for their actions if they don't tell me the reasons? That's basically contrary to the game. I'm certainly not going to give you that benefit.

On June 06 2014 02:30 sqrtofneg1 wrote:
This attitude isn't gonna help you.
Argue all you want, but insulting won't help.

On June 06 2014 02:32 Amiko wrote:


It's so clear you even skipped 7 and 9. (I don't care much about that but it is funny since it reflects you were reordering the 100% clear thoughts)

Why would I assume someone has good reasons for their actions if they don't tell me the reasons? That's basically contrary to the game. I'm certainly not going to give you that benefit.

On June 06 2014 02:52 Amiko wrote:


You don't have to play mafia the same way as me.

If I see behavior that looks scummy, I want to see an explanation.
If the explanation doesn't seem to fit your play at the time, I'm more comfortable disregarding it.

Timeline is absolutely a thing in mafia. Haven't you seen MS Paint?

On June 06 2014 06:48 mderg wrote:

Where do you take that shit from?

On June 06 2014 07:04 mderg wrote:

let´s just say I disagree.

On June 06 2014 06:17 mderg wrote:
I feel like Palmar´s defense is completely based on 1 point, that he wouldn´t play like this as mafia. His actions would make sense as town but they would also make sense as scum.

On June 06 2014 06:17 mderg wrote:
His vote on bunnies doesn´t make him town. Slightly pushing a townie for weak reasons doesn´t instantly make one suspicious. It seems like a low risk low reward move to make as scum.

On June 06 2014 06:17 mderg wrote:
Semi-busing sloosh and gobble was without any follow up, so that didn´t actually put them under huge pressure, so it wasn´t very dangerous and could be used to distance himself from these two resulting in him being less suspicious when they flip or the other way around. It would be pretty ballsy but I think Palmar is capable of that.

On June 06 2014 06:17 mderg wrote:
Staying on MZ on day 2 also makes sense from a scum perspective because one more vote would have changed things. Especially with the third mafia not voting this could have ended in a mislynch and put a scumteam of sloosh, gobble, palmar in a good position.

On June 06 2014 06:17 mderg wrote:
So it all kinda comes down to this:

The thing about this is that it´s simply a matter of believing him or not believing him. And I don´t believe him.

On June 06 2014 07:14 mderg wrote:

I even said that your play also makes sense as town. I didn´t feel the need to explain the possible town mindset for every point because you already did that shit.

On June 06 2014 07:42 mderg wrote:

I think your play would make sense as both alignments. It´s explainable in either way but I think that play is more likely to come from mafia.
You made that huge post explaining why you can´t be scum but I don´t think any of the points you brought up make it impossible for you to be scum.

On June 06 2014 08:03 mderg wrote:

No.

The semi bus on sloosh and gobble without any follow up and your day 2 vote on MZ. Both would have strong scum reasons behind them.

On June 06 2014 13:07 Amiko wrote:
@Palmar:
I don't find your defensive posts to be persuasive. I think it comes down to yes, your play might come from scum or it might come from mistaken town. But, the results have always been anti-town and some of the motivations you claim you have seem unsupported at best, inconsistent at worst, with your play at the time.

I'd still prefer you start talking about mderg and fuba.

On June 06 2014 13:07 Amiko wrote:
@Palmar:
I don't find your defensive posts to be persuasive. I think it comes down to yes, your play might come from scum or it might come from mistaken town. But, the results have always been anti-town and some of the motivations you claim you have seem unsupported at best, inconsistent at worst, with your play at the time.

I'd still prefer you start talking about mderg and fuba.

On June 07 2014 01:57 Amiko wrote:
1) Reads
Mafia can have good reads, doesn't mean much to me.
Even if your reads have been legitimate, they mean little given how you acted.
Easy example: Your recent post says you "called the too scummy to be scum thing on jabber" - that's nice to say, but your action that day was to try to shut down conversation about any alternate wagons to ensure jabber got lynched.
Easy Example: Just saying you suspect slOosh doesn't mean anything when you aren't willing to vote him (or even give an adequate reason why you prefer M_Z). Your posts on slOosh/M_Z showed no analysis

On June 07 2014 01:57 Amiko wrote:
2) Activity
You weren't active d2 or d3. You are not a highly active player this game. If you are town, I think it's good you are actually playing today, but it doesn't come off as town to me.
The attitude you are taking is ironic and to me, fake, given your play. Now you are complaining to town about how it's already set on a lynch and how it won't try to consider anything else. This comes after 2 days where you voted M_Z, sat on your hands, and tried to actively discourage conversation. This whole blame thing is nice and all, but if you flip town I'll be pretty comfortable chalking it up to your anti-town play and hopefully seeing a win tomorrow in spite of your play.

The idea only town can make a lot of posts is almost as persuasive to me as M_Z's case on Alakaslam.

On June 07 2014 01:57 Amiko wrote:
3) Reasons
You keep pretending the reasons for the lynch are different from what they are. First you claim you are only being lynched from fear, but now it's only because you voted wrong on M_Z. I think the second reason is pretty good, actually, but it applies to Fuba as well.

On June 07 2014 01:57 Amiko wrote:
4) Fuba
I asked you specifically why Fuba is scummier than you, and the only response I saw was:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/451317-detention-mafia?page=65#1291
Additionally, you raise this point earlier-

Did you go after gobble d2?

It's counterintuitive that you can think fuba is the most scummy player and that you are a towny player when the grounds apply to both of you.

On June 07 2014 02:02 Amiko wrote:


Are they hiding?
Or are they trying to get attention?
I don't understand how this sentence makes sense on its own, or preceding the statement that fuba is the lynch.

On June 07 2014 02:10 Amiko wrote:
Anyway Haru honestly, whether we lynch Palmar first or Fuba first only matters if you think mderg can be scum.
It is possible, but I think the likelihood is really remote (and for what it's worth, it seems Palmar and Fuba both are stating the same).

If Palmar is lynched and flips town, I think the obvious move is to lynch Fuba tomorrow unless there's any real case on mderg. Take a look at fuba's points on mderg and see what you think of them. I know you suspect fuba, but take a look and see what you think.

On June 07 2014 02:07 Amiko wrote:


By this logic, shouldn't you be scumreading mderg?
After all, if fuba was mafia he would be playing more, right, since he has to try to squirm out of getting lynched tomorrow?

On June 07 2014 02:21 Amiko wrote:
Yeah M_Z's play was bad. Posting a lot before you die doesn't make you town.

Every time you say you agreed with my analysis of slOosh it just makes me feel you are more likely mafia. Part of my analysis was specifically saying that slOosh is scummier than M_Z. If you agreed with me, you would have gone slOosh. You made no attempt to engage on that point or suggest anything specific about your case was better..

I call you anti-town because you attempted to stop discussion
d1 (on jabber, by arguing we shouldn't raise other wagons),
d2 (on M_Z, by arguing platitudes rather than merits),
d3 (on M_Z, with a 'why should i care' attitude).

On June 07 2014 02:50 Amiko wrote:



--

I raised the point that slOosh was scummier than M_Z a few times.
Here are two quotes I picked as examples, because they show that two other players (sqrt and mderg) specifically understand that I was raising that point.

On June 07 2014 04:49 fuba wrote:

I'm not capable of posting that much. Just sayin'.

On June 07 2014 05:30 mderg wrote:

Interesting... why do you think so? I think in this situation one has to play similar as either mafia or town, both only have to survive in order to win.