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On June 06 2014 08:03 mderg wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2014 07:44 Palmar wrote:On June 06 2014 07:42 mderg wrote:On June 06 2014 07:23 Palmar wrote:On June 06 2014 07:14 mderg wrote:On June 06 2014 07:11 Palmar wrote:On June 06 2014 06:17 mderg wrote:
I feel like Palmar´s defense is completely based on 1 point, that he wouldn´t play like this as mafia. His actions would make sense as town but they would also make sense as scum. No it isn't, you're not reading the thread. On June 06 2014 06:17 mderg wrote:
His vote on bunnies doesn´t make him town. Slightly pushing a townie for weak reasons doesn´t instantly make one suspicious. It seems like a low risk low reward move to make as scum. Or alternatively, it's a simple "let's poke it and see what happens" move for town. You're clearly working in a mindset where you first have decided I'm mafia and then you apply reasons for my actions based on your foregone conclusion. On June 06 2014 06:17 mderg wrote:
Semi-busing sloosh and gobble was without any follow up, so that didn´t actually put them under huge pressure, so it wasn´t very dangerous and could be used to distance himself from these two resulting in him being less suspicious when they flip or the other way around. It would be pretty ballsy but I think Palmar is capable of that. I am easily capable of busing people as mafia, I just don't leave myself without options. On June 06 2014 06:17 mderg wrote:
Staying on MZ on day 2 also makes sense from a scum perspective because one more vote would have changed things. Especially with the third mafia not voting this could have ended in a mislynch and put a scumteam of sloosh, gobble, palmar in a good position. Again, you're thinking "Palmar is mafia and here's why" Instead if "This is what Palmar did and it makes him X". There is a perfectly good town explanation for me staying on MZ, I explained it at the time. I've been consistent throughout with my read on him. I quite openly explained why I was doing what I was doing. On June 06 2014 06:17 mderg wrote:So it all kinda comes down to this: On June 06 2014 00:17 Palmar wrote:On June 06 2014 00:16 Amiko wrote:
You ignore the point of the votes.
You don't have to have your votes split d2 because there are still plenty of wagons you can unite behind.
You can try to attack the people who swapped for a mislynch (Haru, sqrt, fuba)
And, you can bus slOosh the next day if you need to.
It doesn't matter if all three of you vote M_Z. Who cares. I'm telling you. I would not do what I did as mafia. I think it's a terrible strategy. The thing about this is that it´s simply a matter of believing him or not believing him. And I don´t believe him. No it doesn't come down to that, that's the tiniest bit of the puzzle. I even said that your play also makes sense as town. I didn´t feel the need to explain the possible town mindset for every point because you already did that shit. If my play makes sense as town, AND the only point against me is that you don't believe I wouldn't play like this as mafia, why are you voting me? I think your play would make sense as both alignments. It´s explainable in either way but I think that play is more likely to come from mafia. You made that huge post explaining why you can´t be scum but I don´t think any of the points you brought up make it impossible for you to be scum. Okay, but does anything make it impossible for me to be town? Why do you think I'm more likely to be mafia. You're being extremely vague. No. The semi bus on sloosh and gobble without any follow up and your day 2 vote on MZ. Both would have strong scum reasons behind them.
And both would also have strong town reasons for them.
These things don't make me mafia unless you apply yourself really hard to the conclusion I must be mafia.
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food for thought for tonight, I'm going to sleep:
You guys are voting the most open, active, outspoken and controversial townie of the possible candidates. You're voting the guy who has actually taken the head and been at the forefront of discussion of lynches instead of just waddling around. I'm the one providing answers, explanations to everything.
It is objectively bad play to lynch me without reasons, and the only reason for lynching me seems to be that I'm guilty of the crime of not knowing the scumteam on day 2. I actually was confused by one lazy townie so he was in there with 2 mafia.
The problem here is that you guys, as sqrtofneg has admitted, are really afraid that I could be doing this as mafia. If I was any random name who's playing his first or second game, you would absolutely be convinced by my effort today. The mistake you're making is assuming there's some fundamental difference between veterans and newbies in mafia. There really is much less of that than most people think. Almost everyone who has played about 2-3 full games of mafia is fully capable of anything.
So please, don't throw a game because you're afraid you might be wrong.
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So for fuba/palmar/mderg, regardless of their alignment these players should understand that their team will 100% win if the other two players are lynched.
So, for Palmar I think we talked through your motivations and I wasn’t really convinced, but maybe if you raise some points on mderg and fuba it’ll change my mind.
Okay, so let's go through fuba's points on mderg-
Fuba raises the point that mderg doesn’t actively push people on d1 and really just hard-defends jabber – when Chrom raises this point, Chrom dies the next day
I think there is some legitimacy to the first part of this point, though mderg does raise some concerns on M_Z by the end of the day. But, rereading Chrom’s post, I feel that he is indicating more of a town-lean on mderg so I’m not sure the second part of the point pans out.
Chrom’s post:+ Show Spoiler + On May 30 2014 06:35 Chromatically wrote:mderg just feels really genuine to me. I think it would be easy for scum to randomly throw out a scumread to push when I started pressuring him, but mderg didn't back down, which is a much townier position. Scum would be more aware of how strange it looks that they're not pushing a read and would invent one to push. Show nested quote +On May 28 2014 23:43 mderg wrote:On May 28 2014 23:23 Chromatically wrote:
mderg, what would you say your objective is for today? What outcome would you be most happy with?? Well, my objective is to lynch scum but I don´t think that´s what you want to hear. It´s difficult to find a proper answer to that question because it´s not like I have someone I really want to lynch. I still don´t want jabber to be lynched. The outcome I would be most happy with would be lynching someone who is not jabber and scum. But since my defense for jabber didn´t seem to convince people I don´t think someone else will be lynched. I´d also be happy, if jabber flipped scum. That would make me wrong but it would put us in a good position. Genuine doesn't necessarily mean town though (I'm very wary of calling mderg town for that one post Palmar liked, I think that could easily come from scum). But, I think his posts show a townie thought process about honestly wanting to defend jabber.
2) Regarding mderg’s move to slOosh from M_Z
To me, I think mderg is town not only because his vote ended the day on slOosh (though that is a good sign) but also because of the timing of his switch.
For context of when mderg switches to slOosh, check this - http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/451317-detention-mafia?page=38#741 – Koshi did a vote count and mderg is the next post. So, when mderg switches, the votes are like this:
On May 31 2014 20:55 Koshi wrote:
Meapak_Ziphh (3) - HaruRH, Palmar, mderg, SlOosh,
slOosh(4) – Amiko, Alakaslam, HaruRH, sqrtofneg1
Sqrtofneg1(1) - fuba
Not voting (3) : – 27ninjabunnies, Meapak_Ziphh, gobbledydook
What is significant to me about this vote count is the split: sloosh at 4, M_Z at 3. I feel like at this point, the votes were split such that I don’t feel mderg would feel he has to vote for a mafia teammate. I think he could have stayed on M_Z without much suspicion if he really wanted to, or could have even waited until a few more people voted to decide whether to change his mind. I just feel like the changed vote on mderg feels really inconsistent with scum play due to its timing, as well as its result.
(Still going through thread)
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@Mderg:
Can you talk some about fuba in particular?
Ideally I'd like you to make as strong a case on fuba as you can.
@fuba:
Can you explain to me why you raised your case on sqrt when you did?
I think I raised the point earlier-
To me, the tone of your post seemed like you were just interjecting in a conversation you were involved in (you said something like "I'm glad you mentioned sqrt"). But, if you were following the conversation, I would have expected you to be caught up on the slOosh / M_Z lynches and weigh in on the bandwagons.
It seemed to me like that post just didn't belong at that time.
There's other stuff on D2 I'll try to bring up as I continue through thread.
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@Palmar:
I don't find your defensive posts to be persuasive. I think it comes down to yes, your play might come from scum or it might come from mistaken town. But, the results have always been anti-town and some of the motivations you claim you have seem unsupported at best, inconsistent at worst, with your play at the time.
I'd still prefer you start talking about mderg and fuba.
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Btw I think palmar's self-classifications of himself above are pretty unsupported but discussing it is probably unimportant to determining his alignment.
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@Palmar
I think if we look at your play, you are closer to fuba than you are to mderg, certainly in terms of your positions on M_Z on d2 and d3 and arguably on d1 as well.
What makes Fuba scummier than you?
I think the sqrt case is an argument, can you give me anything else?
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On June 06 2014 13:07 Amiko wrote:
@Palmar:
I don't find your defensive posts to be persuasive. I think it comes down to yes, your play might come from scum or it might come from mistaken town. But, the results have always been anti-town and some of the motivations you claim you have seem unsupported at best, inconsistent at worst, with your play at the time.
I'd still prefer you start talking about mderg and fuba.
I resent the "mistaken town" part.
Almost every read I've made this game has been correct. It's just the fact that I got MZ wrong.
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I already concluded btw that Chrom was leaning town on mderg.
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On June 06 2014 13:07 Amiko wrote:
@Palmar:
I don't find your defensive posts to be persuasive. I think it comes down to yes, your play might come from scum or it might come from mistaken town. But, the results have always been anti-town and some of the motivations you claim you have seem unsupported at best, inconsistent at worst, with your play at the time.
I'd still prefer you start talking about mderg and fuba.
You can call me mafia, but don't criticize my analytical play.
I got ninja, you, i, chrom, haru all right on night 1 or before/after that.
I called the too scummy to be scum thing on jabber.
My night 1 list of possible mafia candidates/people to be pressured was MZ/gobbley/sloosh/fuba. I added in slam as a possible check because I can't actually read that guy.
So no. the fact that I had MZ wrong does not give you any leeway. You're by far the worse offender here, as you're trying to lynch an active townie with no good reasons who is actively explaining himself, whereas meapak just rolled over and got lynched.
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I am voting fuba by process of elimination btw.
mderg's day 1 post that I found mega-townie
Chrom's townread on mderg
mderg getting roleblocked day 2.
Fuba has played well if he's the mafia.
##Vote fuba
I have other reasons. For example someone should count the posts written today by me on one hand and fuba on the other. Then come back with a straight face and say there's even a remote chance I am the mafia. He's not stirring the pot because he doesn't have to. He doesn't really care who gets lynched first me or mderg.
That will be hilarious.
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Vote count:
Palmar (4) - sqrtofneg1, fuba, Amiko, HaruRH, mderg, fuba
fuba (2) - HaruRH, Palmar, Palmar
mderg (0) - fuba, Palmar
Not voting (0) : -
Currently Palmar is set to be lynched!
Day ends in
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When I'm dead I don't want tthere to be any excuse for voting me. The only mistake I've made this game is not figuring out how to convince you guys to do the right thing. That's sort of on me, but it takes two to tango.
1. No one has any legitimate reason for voting me. It is not a scumtell to be wrong, especially when you're wrong on like 1 player out of the bunch.
2. It is not a scumtell to lead a desperate vote-switch attempt based on paranoia. I put my neck out there, both when I started calling the jabber lynch sketchy, and when I tried to switch to meapak.
3. It is not a scumtell to not have a continuation strategy with 1 mafia left and your target up on the chopping block. In fact the only faction that would have a continuation strategy in that scenario is mafia, because they know the game is not about to end.
4. The most active player in a situation like this, is almost never mafia. Let this be a lesson to you guys. I am posting, responding, actively defending myself. The town leadership, and mostly Amiko, is letting mafia get away with not playing this day because he's too cocky to change his mind.
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The sad part here is that mderg could actually be scum. Based on nothing but his posting today he hasn't done jack shit, he doesn't even know what the case against me is, and yet he comments on it. He's posted almost nothing today and contributed nothing today. Even if I think it's fuba, don't let mderg slide by because you guys won't take the free win.
Like it's so frustrating to watch this idiocy, that I must be mafia because I made one call wrong on one guy, lead to people sticking their heads so far up their asses any kind of logic or reasoning doesn't get to them.
Notice how I can't even do anything about fuba. I asked him a very direct question about a very sketchy place in his filter, and he just doesn't respond. Why? Because you (Amiko) don't want to actually find mafia, you just want to punish people for not being right on everything.
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This may be one of the dumbest lynches I've seen in mafia.
I'm out for now.
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fuba has 7 posts today.
mderg has 13
palmar has 77
I wonder who is absolutely in no fucking way mafia.
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Also, when I flip. Take responsibility for that statistic. I was wrong on MZ, I admit it. I still think my reasoning was okay, or at least he never even tried to not get lynched (which is inexcusable, really).
However, this (the above stats) is what you guys made happen today. By not using your brains you have allowed whoever is mafia among the other two to skimp by because you don't want to win the game, you don't want to think.
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But hey, let's instead not talk, not do anything and fail our way to a mislynch.
I won't be around forever today, and honestly I'm starting to care less.
You probably have to lynch fuba _even_ if it absolutely sucks that mderg isn't even playing the game. If fuba is mafia it's all fine and dandy. If we lose this game, and mderg is mafa, the decision to lynch me against all reasonable evidence and logic is what lost us the game.
Thank you Haru for not being a dumbass.
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Day 1.
I don't know what happened. Maybe I dreamt the whole thing. I was having a conversation, quite a heated conversation. Someone wanted to kill me, neither of us was sure for exactly what reason. The last thing I remember is some fading echoes of how I hadn't changed his mind.
And now I'm stuck here. It took me a while to fully realize that I'm alone. I'm not quite sure how to proceed from here. I thought I was talking to someone, but only the wind seems to have heard me.
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On June 06 2014 13:01 Amiko wrote:
@Mderg:
Can you talk some about fuba in particular?
Ideally I'd like you to make as strong a case on fuba as you can.
@fuba:
Can you explain to me why you raised your case on sqrt when you did?
I think I raised the point earlier-
To me, the tone of your post seemed like you were just interjecting in a conversation you were involved in (you said something like "I'm glad you mentioned sqrt"). But, if you were following the conversation, I would have expected you to be caught up on the slOosh / M_Z lynches and weigh in on the bandwagons.
It seemed to me like that post just didn't belong at that time.
There's other stuff on D2 I'll try to bring up as I continue through thread.
It should be obvious by now that both fuba and mderg are intentionally hiding or trying to get attention - I still think fuba is the lynch.
I am not going to convince both of you to switch to fuba, but Palmar's flip will prove to be a headache for us.
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EPT
