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TL 'Order' LXVI Mafia
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Chairman Ray
United States11903 Posts
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Chairman Ray
United States11903 Posts
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Chairman Ray
United States11903 Posts
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Chairman Ray
United States11903 Posts
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Chairman Ray
United States11903 Posts
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Chairman Ray
United States11903 Posts
On June 11 2014 05:56 Chairman Ray wrote: I'm gonna vote the first person to post on page 25! ##Vote: roundabout | ||
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Chairman Ray
United States11903 Posts
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Chairman Ray
United States11903 Posts
On June 11 2014 06:03 roundabound wrote: I'm impatient Banksy. Plus, I don't know how to bait shit. You know how I play...I just spout whatever the hell comes to my head at the moment. Plus, I think that baiting is kinda silly in general. It's too tough to do properly, and unless people read the post the same way you do, you end up with a shitton of people just thinking that you're scum defending a scum buddy instead of reading you for making a good play. The self-aware weak player. If you are so knowledgeable that you spout what just comes to your head, why don't you just not do it this game instead of analyzing your own weaknesses? A town player will usually try to not exhibit weaknesses that they are completely aware of, and if they do make a mistake, they will try to justify it post-mistake. This feels like someone trying to create a buffer for their future posts so others will read less into scummy play. On June 11 2014 06:08 roundabound wrote: Banks, I don't like that you haven't cleared me yet. I'm the easiest read of all fucking time. I hear this a lot of mafia players when I play live mafia. One of the main benchmarks of skill in mafia is other players not being able to trust if you are town or mafia. It becomes really obvious whether or not a newer player is town or scum, but not the better players. This is another self-aware weak player card that I feel would rarely be played by a town player. On June 11 2014 06:10 roundabound wrote: The only person pushing me is Banks. I've only seen him lurk as mafia on TL and I've seen him be active as town. If posting volume drops or if logic fails or if he doesn't clear me at some point, he might be mafia, otherwise, he's town. Again, he's putting the onus on others to clear him as town. He also prematurely dropped the read on banks that banks is active as town and not so much as mafia. This is something you keep in your mind and say AFTER bank shows that he's active or lurking. Saying this prematurely is an indication that round never had the intention to read into banks. | ||
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Chairman Ray
United States11903 Posts
On June 11 2014 08:53 Tehpoofter wrote: His recent posts backing up your wolf lean on him? How do you feel about Marv/Sandroba/JaT not liking your post at all? You think thats alignment indicative for any of them? Also You're doing a poor job of try harding if you make one post a day. Please don't go Cephiro mode on me. If Koshi is heading out for the night, I'm just gonna chime in now. Koshi's big analysis post reads pretty scummy to me. His mafia reads seem pretty sincere and thought out, but his town reads are very short. Whether or not he believes them himself is not evident, but it doesn't convey much to the reader. My initial thinking is that his townreads serve to 'bulk' up his post. I've seen a lot of mafia in previous games iterate through people and give a quick impression of them without a well thought out read on them. This gives the impression that they are active and their posts are longer without actually having to do a lot of investigation. What strikes me odd was his next post: On June 11 2014 08:16 Koshi wrote: No sorry my towns are town. Koshi posted this in response to the people that were dismissive of his reads. This is a very important distinction because people react differently when they are opposed by analysis and when they are opposed by a one liner. In this case, most people just posted a quick one liner dismissing him. From Koshi's perspective, if he just gave out a few quick impressions without a lot of thought, he wouldn't have any sort of attachment or loyalty to his post. His response to the critics would be something like "Those were just my gut feelings at the moment, they may change by the end of the day". Instead, he dismissed the critics with a one liner post containing no new information by posting "No sorry my towns are town". It may be hard to read into on forum mafia, but to me he sounds a bit frustrated and doesn't feel his critics doesn't deserve any more than a one liner. If this is the case, then Koshi has some genuine belief of his townreads, and regardless of the quality of his reads or how he conveyed them, this seems more town to me. tl;dr I disagree with Koshi's townreads, even though I am among them; I disagree with Sandroba that Koshi is mafia. | ||
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Chairman Ray
United States11903 Posts
On June 11 2014 09:26 Tehpoofter wrote: Which of Koshi's reads do you disagree with and why? When I stated in the tl;dr that I disagreed with his townreads, I meant that when I first read his analysis, it gave me the impression that they were filler reads and not genuine reads. After his next post, I started to rethink whether or not his reads were meant to be filler, but at the same time I still can't get much from his townreads. To be more specific, statements such as "Not an awkward entrance." and "Town for being around joyfully" are very general and conceptual. The best reads on people are less binary than that and the way in which someone is being not awkward or being joyful is far more important than the general concept. Koshi is not the only one who's been making a lot of general statements, but it stuck out to me more because he initially claimed to be tryharding, and his read on Chrom was a lot more in depth. | ||
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Chairman Ray
United States11903 Posts
On June 11 2014 09:46 Bill Murray wrote: ray, would you consider yourself an analytical player? I haven't really considered how I play. I just play how I feel like at the moment and that has meant a lot of different things. On June 11 2014 09:47 Tehpoofter wrote: To Clarify: You disagree with the reasons he got to people's alignment not necessarily the alignment he got to? That is correct | ||
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Chairman Ray
United States11903 Posts
On June 11 2014 09:52 marvellosity wrote: You realise getting the correct alignments for the wrong reasons is like quintissential mafia play, yes? Yes I understand that, but I don't believe that is the case here. | ||
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Chairman Ray
United States11903 Posts
On June 11 2014 10:32 Bill Murray wrote: exo + Show Spoiler + On June 11 2014 10:28 ExO_ wrote: Looks like a lot of baseless finger pointing, counter-finger pointing, and baseless claims to me. People are "reading" far too much into non-informative posts if you ask me. This early into the game I think a lot of people are probably very actively over-analyzing every little detail and then causing small squabbles between each other for the dumbest of reasons. So what do I think of his reads? Not much. The only person I've found really interesting so far is chairmanray, who has made some huge posts. I think he's either a townie who is (over)confident in his own ability to read into things, or a mafia having fun while looking innocent. I would lean towards the latter. It's hard to say he hasn't been serious with his vote. he was the 4th on a wagon with a non serious vote and has kept it on there. oh, hey, what a convenience i have admittedly flip flopped on him in the first couple pages so we'll see where this goes. i like this post, though, as i've liked your earlier postings My vote on round was serious. I didn't actually vote when I joked about voting the first poster on page 25. You will see in the voting thread that the timestamp does not match. I voted round after I looked into him and felt that he was a strong mafia read. I would also disagree that my vote was a mere bandwagon. At the time, the day was just starting and there were barely any votes. I casted my vote without consideration to how many people had already voted on round, because between the start of the day and the end, my views will change, and so will everyone else's. For the same reason, a mafia will have no motivation to bandwagon at the very start. I feel that the whole mafia bandwagon strategy would be employed after most people in the game have already voted. Being one of the first to vote turns attention to me, not away from me. Voting on round was simply to state my position. My first real post in this game was an analysis on why I felt that round was mafia. I put some thought into it and my reasoning was unique at the time. I think it's pretty clear that I didn't simply vote him because it was the popular opinion. The reason why I kept my vote on round is that I have not found another person who I feel has a greater chance of being mafia. I looked into Koshi after he made his first post, and I have posted what I thought about him, and I am continuing to investigate more people. If you still feel that my vote was simply a bandwagon, please give me some feedback on my original analysis of him. | ||
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Chairman Ray
United States11903 Posts
On June 11 2014 11:29 batsnacks wrote: Okay I'm caught up here's my notes so far: Sinani - Scum. He treads too lightly and unsuccessfully tries to dodge the spotlight. He tries to direct the spotlight away from himself. Do you have specific posts? I feel you are speaking too metaphorically and I don't actually see what you mean in his filter. Chairman Ray - Too impressive a performance to be town. Leaning heavily toward mafia. I'm not sure how to respond to this. What does "too impressive" mean? tehpoofer - Scum. My notes say "gave a lame apology." Voted roundabout for bad reasons, then unvoted roundabout for equally bad reasons. Voted for Koshi and switched soon after without pressuring Koshi at all. Soft defended sinani early on, then voted him for bad reasons, then unvoted him for bad reasons. Noticing a pattern. Tries to look like he's "helping" by pointing out when the thread started for kush. Tries to look like he's "helping" by explaining what a hydra is. Tries to look like he's "helping" by explaining what OMGUS means. Paraphrases other people's posts for them. tehpoofer made a ton of posts today and you have summarized a few of them. Can you explain why these posts you have selected are alignment indicative, and what you think about all his other posts? vayne - Skipped early game. Skipped more because "migraine." FOS Palmer has skipped the game thus far because of dota. Why is he not on your FOS? sandroba - Gets town cred for calling out Koshi first Why is this town indicative? Why doesn't Bill Murray get town cred from calling out roundabout's sheeping the wrong player? exo - "I'm new guys please take it easy on me." FOS Why is this suspicious behavior? Bill Murray - My notes say "he liked exo's early posts." All of exo's early posts were questions about terminology that he could have easily googled. FOS Exo has made posts that are not just asking for terminology. Why did you discount these posts? TicaTica - Expert troll? Null read. Why did you give TicaTica a null read with no real explanation, and not included any of the other people who have posted in this thread? | ||
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Chairman Ray
United States11903 Posts
On June 11 2014 12:14 Rainbows wrote: + Show Spoiler + On June 11 2014 11:52 Chairman Ray wrote: batsnacks, I do not fully understand your post, and was hoping you could clarify a few thing for me: Do you have specific posts? I feel you are speaking too metaphorically and I don't actually see what you mean in his filter. I'm not sure how to respond to this. What does "too impressive" mean? tehpoofer made a ton of posts today and you have summarized a few of them. Can you explain why these posts you have selected are alignment indicative, and what you think about all his other posts? Palmer has skipped the game thus far because of dota. Why is he not on your FOS? Why is this town indicative? Why doesn't Bill Murray get town cred from calling out roundabout's sheeping the wrong player? Why is this suspicious behavior? Exo has made posts that are not just asking for terminology. Why did you discount these posts? Why did you give TicaTica a null read with no real explanation, and not included any of the other people who have posted in this thread? I don't understand what this post is trying to achieve by CR. He claims to "not fully understand" this post, but asks questions about people not even referenced by bat, (IE Why not FoS Palmar? Why not include other people?) even asks why the null read at this stage in the game. What is the goal? I'm having a difficult time understanding Chair's motivations so far. My reply to batsnacks was to further read if he's mafia or not. I have two strong reads on why he's mafia, and I needed to be confirm with him that he just didn't misconvey his reads. 1) Mafia will often generalize or conceptualize and then attack based on that generalization and not the original context. A town will more likely consider a case by its face value. 2) Mafia will often pick certain reads to either seem active or try to push a certain agenda because all he has to do is not get lynched himself or push for a mislynch. They tend to be more inconsistent or random. A town does not know who else is town or mafia and has to look at everything. Now let's break down batsnack's post: Sinani - Scum. He treads too lightly and unsuccessfully tries to dodge the spotlight. He tries to direct the spotlight away from himself. 1. About sinani. There are specific posts but I don't feel like finding them. My notes are just my general feelings about the thread so far. Maybe my feelings are too metaphorical but at least I'm sharing them. This gives no tangible evidence to the rest of us. If he's just sharing his feelings and not even bothering to give specific posts or evidence. This is clearly just to make himself seem more active without being active. Chairman Ray - Too impressive a performance to be town. Leaning heavily toward mafia. 2. About you. Your posts are too intelligent and thorough. Are those better adjectives than "impressive"? I have said quite a bit this game and batsnacks wraps it all up into the word "impressive". He didn't have any feedback on what I have written. He didn't put any thought into why my reads could be accurate, or why they may be wrong. The only thing he seemed to get from it was that it was apparently "intelligent and thorough" and that was all he needed to give me "learning heavily toward mafia" tehpoofer - Scum. My notes say "gave a lame apology." Voted roundabout for bad reasons, then unvoted roundabout for equally bad reasons. Voted for Koshi and switched soon after without pressuring Koshi at all. Soft defended sinani early on, then voted him for bad reasons, then unvoted him for bad reasons. Noticing a pattern. Tries to look like he's "helping" by pointing out when the thread started for kush. Tries to look like he's "helping" by explaining what a hydra is. Tries to look like he's "helping" by explaining what OMGUS means. Paraphrases other people's posts for them. About tehpoofer. I believe everything I mentioned is alignment indicative. His posts have the theme of appearing to help but in ways that don't actually benefit town. Tehpoofer has said a lot this game. Again, batsnacks is just taking everything and wrapping it up in "appearing to help but in ways that don't actually benefit town" and it does seem that way if you are only considering the posts that batsnacks has summarized. If you look into tehpoofer's filter, he's been very active on a lot of things besides just voting people and helping with definitions. I think batsnacks is clearly avoiding evidence for the sake of this read. vayne - Skipped early game. Skipped more because "migraine." FOS 4. About Palmar. Palmar only made one "skip" post. Vayne made two consecutive "skip" posts. That's a big difference. I originally questioned batsnacks on this because "skip" posts warrant his suspicions, but only for the case of Vayne, and not Palmer. I still don't know what's the big difference between one "skip" post and two and he hasn't told me what the big difference is, but my impression was that this read was randomly thrown out there without much consideration. sandroba - Gets town cred for calling out Koshi first. 5. About sandroba. It's town indicative because I would have done the same thing. That thing that you said BillyMurray did either didn't make my notes because I interpreted whatever it was differently or because I missed it. This is the only towncred that batsnacks has awarded, and it's for something as little as being the first one to bash Koshi's post. If this meets the standard of towncred, a lot of other stuff should get towncred as well. So again, I feel this case was just randomly added without much consideration. Bill Murray - My notes say "he liked exo's early posts." All of exo's early posts were questions about terminology that he could have easily googled. FOS 6. About exo. He posts only to benefit himself, not town. If I were newb town and didn't know what hydras or OMGUSing was I would make damn sure I couldn't educate myself before I asked in the thread. I feel that batsnacks didn't really read either Exo's posts or Bill Murray's posts. Exo definitely said more than just asking about terminology. Bill Murray was not just referring to Exo's terminology questions when he said he liked exo's early posts. In fact, Bill Murray's filter has a lot of very interesting things and his opinion on Exo is just one little thing, but it was the one little thing that batsnacks chose to attack. Overall, these are my current suspicions on batsnacks: - batsnacks has done little to convey specific evidence or examples on any of his reads. This tells me that he's trying to seem active without being active. - he generalizes people's entire filters such as BM's, exo's, and mine, and attacks based on that generalization and chooses to disregard the context - every read that he has or doesn't have shows a very different standard of what constitutes as suspicious - the few reads that he has chosen are seemlingly random and I don't know why he decided on those instead of all else that has happened in the thread | ||
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Chairman Ray
United States11903 Posts
On June 11 2014 12:51 Rainbows wrote: + Show Spoiler + On June 11 2014 09:20 Chairman Ray wrote: If Koshi is heading out for the night, I'm just gonna chime in now. Koshi's big analysis post reads pretty scummy to me. His mafia reads seem pretty sincere and thought out, but his town reads are very short. Whether or not he believes them himself is not evident, but it doesn't convey much to the reader. My initial thinking is that his townreads serve to 'bulk' up his post. I've seen a lot of mafia in previous games iterate through people and give a quick impression of them without a well thought out read on them. This gives the impression that they are active and their posts are longer without actually having to do a lot of investigation. What strikes me odd was his next post: Koshi posted this in response to the people that were dismissive of his reads. This is a very important distinction because people react differently when they are opposed by analysis and when they are opposed by a one liner. In this case, most people just posted a quick one liner dismissing him. From Koshi's perspective, if he just gave out a few quick impressions without a lot of thought, he wouldn't have any sort of attachment or loyalty to his post. His response to the critics would be something like "Those were just my gut feelings at the moment, they may change by the end of the day". Instead, he dismissed the critics with a one liner post containing no new information by posting "No sorry my towns are town". It may be hard to read into on forum mafia, but to me he sounds a bit frustrated and doesn't feel his critics doesn't deserve any more than a one liner. If this is the case, then Koshi has some genuine belief of his townreads, and regardless of the quality of his reads or how he conveyed them, this seems more town to me. tl;dr I disagree with Koshi's townreads, even though I am among them; I disagree with Sandroba that Koshi is mafia. I don't get CR's goal with his postings. he comes to no conclusion, just that some post made koshi scummy but his next post made him more town. So is he mafia or town for CR at this point? I care not that CR is posting intelligently (this is a good thing!!!), but there's a bunch of text with seemingly no bite involved atm Not every post has to strictly give a conclusion whether or not I think someone is mafia or town. I posted that analysis on Koshi because a few other people thought Koshi was mafia based on Koshi's reads. I wanted to to convey that while I agree some of Koshi's reads were problematic, these problems are not ones that mafia would do, but rather town would do. | ||
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Chairman Ray
United States11903 Posts
On June 11 2014 13:23 batsnacks wrote: Chairman, without reading the above post, I really wish both your posts about me weren't perfectly sequential dissections of literally everything I said. Sorry, I'll try to keep it brief from now on. You can just read the "Overall" statement at the end | ||
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Chairman Ray
United States11903 Posts
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Chairman Ray
United States11903 Posts
On June 11 2014 14:06 batsnacks wrote: As soon as I stop getting this error message I will be happy to oblige. Until then, yeah, I like what Chairman Ray said because I appreciate good mafia play AND I still think he's scum. Are you claiming that town players will always play off-the-cuff? | ||
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Chairman Ray
United States11903 Posts
On June 11 2014 14:15 batsnacks wrote: ALWAYS is a bad word to use in mafia. Your posts in general are guilty of generalizing how mafia is played. Add that to the problems I have with what you've contributed. Firstly, you have not given any response to my criticisms of you. All you did was try to redirection suspicions onto me. Secondly, you did the exact same thing with the question I just asked you. Thirdly, you took the word 'always' completely out of context in order to make it look like I made a blanket statement. It is very clear this isn't the case. I made a one line question so there wasn't much for you to read. I don't believe for a second that you made a reading error. This mistake was done intentionally. If you are wondering why I asked you that question, it was because you base your entire read off of me because you saw ONE person do something similar. A sample size of ONE. In order for you to make this read, you would have to have seen ZERO town play similarly. This is why I asked you believe that a town will always play off-the-cuff. I'm gonna stop right here because you like me to keep things short. But it's pretty clear you are playing this way intentionally. You are intentionally avoiding any criticism or question I have of you. You are willingly taking people's posts out of context and selecting those that are convenient to your scumreads while ignoring everything else. You have very arbitrary standards as to what you find towny and what you find scummy. Putting myself in your shoes, I can't picture the things you have said to be from someone trying to find out who's town and who's mafia. You clearly have the motivations of someone who's trying to look active, and trying to get a mislynch happening. I have a fairly strong read that you are mafia. ##Unvote ##Vote: batsnacks | ||
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. What do you think of the people pushing you?
