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On February 11 2014 01:07 marvellosity wrote:
I've also had naughty thoughts running along the lines of "if Wave is mafia, that explains why I'm confused and nothing seems to make sense this game"
By the way your point that I didn't make is bang on rayn - for all his talk on Koshi/VA, he never really tried to convince people on to him very much, and he barely mentions Corazon.
Ctrl-f Cora in his filter... he questions a couple of people about Cora, and on page 2 he says he doesn't like something from Cora. But that is *it*. He never gives a real opinion on the person who was heading for the gallows for a long time. Was Wave happy with the Cora lynch? Was his vote on Koshi because Koshi is mafia but maybe Cora is also mafia? If he thought Cora was town, he should have been campaigning against the lynch. If he thought he had a decent chance to flip mafia... then he certainly never said so.
That's what bothers me about everyone who did not want to lynch Corazon (or implied so by having their vote on someone else) besides geript. Noone did anything about the lynch. I thought Corazon had a decent chance of flipping mafia because of what i said on D1, in case you are town too (which i am quite sure of now - and was a bit less, but still quite sure about on D1) there is very little mafia can do even if Corazon is mafia and therefore the size of the wagon and the lack of resistance does not really matter (for example see some of the last games where scum have been lynched on D1, Quiet mini mafia (pretty much considered only 2 scum for D1 lynch and a weak early push on town!yamato), NMM (only a scumwagon until they claimed, then we lynched another scum), LXIV (only real lynch candidates were Derrida/Xatalos besides BH's dumb plan to not elect and lynch you)).
But if those people thought Corazon is not mafia (which WoS' posts indicate, as he says "if i was here bla bla...") why not try to lynch someone else? Like really try to lynch someone else.
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Thing about WoS is that while a bit all over the place, just the sheer amount of posting, and not just one-liners, pretty long posts, on day 1 made me say "yeah he's probably town."
in general I agree with this sentiment:
On February 11 2014 00:44 raynpelikoneet wrote:
WoS is amongst the players who actually seem like they are trying to do something.
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United Kingdom36161 Posts
Wave on Corazon:
+ Show Spoiler +On February 09 2014 04:41 WaveofShadow wrote:Show nested quote +On February 09 2014 01:47 Corazon wrote:On February 09 2014 01:44 raynpelikoneet wrote:
What in your opinion was the discussion about geript you talked about and why did you not continue it by asking people about it if you thought that was important? Geript's vote for VA and the discussion that followed. When did I say I thought that discussion was important? I just said that I didn't comment on it because I thought it was Geript being Geript. What exactly are you referring to do when you say 'geript being geript?' I don't know I'd go so far as to say he was 'shitting up the thread,' but it was him I was referring to when I said his early efforts seemed 'forced,' not you. Cora, I have a problem. See, you share ideas that I somewhat agree with in that I believe something is 'up' with geript, and this though, I suppose and obvious question isn't exactly alignment indicative when we're both thinking it, (btw Koshi I am VERY interested in this particular question) but this post. I hate it. Show nested quote +On February 09 2014 02:02 Corazon wrote:On February 09 2014 01:51 raynpelikoneet wrote:
Okay. So you have not said pretty much anything then. Is there anyone that seems scummy to you atm? I know this going to sound like a cop-out, but I don't have any scumreads right now. (This thought line only works for me) I know that because I am VT, people attacking me either have to be wrong or scum. Rayn- I think your attack of me hinges on the interpretation that Geript's play was pro-active rather than shitting up the thread. It's not scummy if you disagree with me. WoS- He is wrong too, but I feel like it is too much effort for scum to be attacking both me and VE at the same time in the effort of trying to make an association case. He's also trying to get opinions on his opinion, which tells me that he is looking for the right lynch, not the one that gives him a scum read to cling to. Yamato- This: On February 08 2014 19:01 yamato77 wrote:RE: Cora Didn't care for this bit: On February 08 2014 12:25 Corazon wrote:On February 08 2014 11:59 VisceraEyes wrote:Well there is no "hook" for Alak to have to "get off" since he hasn't even been give a few hours. I think it is null for now Cora. It doesn't even feel scummy to you or you wouldn't be asking, you would be telling us.  Alright, I will give it a break. I just thought the conversation about Geript was going nowhere, so I wanted to throw it out there. @Oats: 4 people in this game are scum. When I figure out who is scum, I'll let you know babycakes Shoots down Oats for Oats' dumb "who is scum?" question, then On February 08 2014 16:22 Corazon wrote:
Geript, when do you plan on actually trying to find scum? Just curious. Turns around and does the same stupid thing. I, unlike you, give him no townie points for the Slam questions because it was a silly thing to ask anyway. Is just blatantly wrong. He calls me out without saying that my play has been useless/I'm shitting up the thread. He doesn't want to make these specific statements that I can easily disprove. My post to Geript was basically saying "When are you going to stop shitting up the thread" and he basically stated that I was shitting up the thread too, which is a complete lie. My behavior ≠ Geript's behavior, and it's pretty bad for Yamato to try and link them together. That is most of my thoughts on the game. I haven't seen too many egregious posts which also makes me think that we have another huge lurker scum team. But it's just a feeling. On one hand it seems like the kind of stuff I'd say as town, (ie drawing attention to yourself by saying having no scum-reads might be a cop-out, being all apologetic) but then why does this only apply to you? Cora what is your D1 play normally like? But the it looks like you're drawing distinctions where you feel like drawing them. Like it looks like you're afraid of Rayn (or maybe me lol) and throwing suspicion at yamato when Rayn literally said it was yamato's post that made him think you were scummy in the first place! Also you're saying the scumteam is hugely lurky IS a cop-out. Do you think everyone who has posted so far is town? Is yamato scum for saying what he did? Attacks Cora, doesn't call him mafia but attacks him. Whatever, that doesn't have to mean the world. On February 09 2014 05:42 WaveofShadow wrote:Show nested quote +On February 09 2014 05:35 Palmar wrote:
I'm btw assuming you assholes are all better than me at this by now. Any relevant thoughts? Ohai VE, can we let's have talk plz? VE, why was Cora's answer here Show nested quote +On February 08 2014 12:25 Corazon wrote:On February 08 2014 11:59 VisceraEyes wrote:Well there is no "hook" for Alak to have to "get off" since he hasn't even been give a few hours. I think it is null for now Cora. It doesn't even feel scummy to you or you wouldn't be asking, you would be telling us. Alright, I will give it a break. I just thought the conversation about Geript was going nowhere, so I wanted to throw it out there. @Oats: 4 people in this game are scum. When I figure out who is scum, I'll let you know babycakes acceptable to you? It looks as though this was you letting HIM 'off the hook' considering how quickly he dropped it after a smile from you. And considering Cora's posting in the game so far, you categorize him as 'lazy' townie? He doesn't look lazy to me. Cora is scummy? On February 09 2014 10:34 WaveofShadow wrote:Show nested quote +On February 09 2014 10:32 marvellosity wrote:
You always say you can't take my word for things, and I always end up being right. I trust you'll learn at some stage.
I mean, I even explained the rationale behind what I said because I know you like that sort of thing. It should make sense to you. The rationale you explained actually does make sense, but the problem is like I said, it involves me simply trusting you and taking your word for it, and I can't do that. Since Palmar appears to be ignoring me for the moment, is there anything else we can discuss then? Thoughts on Cora perhaps and his refusal to 'defend himself' (when all I really expected was some sort of response)? Question... On February 09 2014 15:15 WaveofShadow wrote:Yamato do you think Cora is scum or not? You're harping on shit that has already been brought up: Show nested quote +On February 09 2014 04:41 WaveofShadow wrote:On February 09 2014 01:47 Corazon wrote:On February 09 2014 01:44 raynpelikoneet wrote:
What in your opinion was the discussion about geript you talked about and why did you not continue it by asking people about it if you thought that was important? Geript's vote for VA and the discussion that followed. When did I say I thought that discussion was important? I just said that I didn't comment on it because I thought it was Geript being Geript. What exactly are you referring to do when you say 'geript being geript?' I don't know I'd go so far as to say he was 'shitting up the thread,' but it was him I was referring to when I said his early efforts seemed 'forced,' not you. Cora, I have a problem. See, you share ideas that I somewhat agree with in that I believe something is 'up' with geript, and this On February 09 2014 04:18 Risen wrote:
Reasoning? though, I suppose and obvious question isn't exactly alignment indicative when we're both thinking it, (btw Koshi I am VERY interested in this particular question) but this post. I hate it. On February 09 2014 02:02 Corazon wrote:On February 09 2014 01:51 raynpelikoneet wrote:
Okay. So you have not said pretty much anything then. Is there anyone that seems scummy to you atm? I know this going to sound like a cop-out, but I don't have any scumreads right now. (This thought line only works for me) I know that because I am VT, people attacking me either have to be wrong or scum. Rayn- I think your attack of me hinges on the interpretation that Geript's play was pro-active rather than shitting up the thread. It's not scummy if you disagree with me. WoS- He is wrong too, but I feel like it is too much effort for scum to be attacking both me and VE at the same time in the effort of trying to make an association case. He's also trying to get opinions on his opinion, which tells me that he is looking for the right lynch, not the one that gives him a scum read to cling to. Yamato- This: On February 08 2014 19:01 yamato77 wrote:RE: Cora Didn't care for this bit: On February 08 2014 12:25 Corazon wrote:On February 08 2014 11:59 VisceraEyes wrote:Well there is no "hook" for Alak to have to "get off" since he hasn't even been give a few hours. I think it is null for now Cora. It doesn't even feel scummy to you or you wouldn't be asking, you would be telling us. Alright, I will give it a break. I just thought the conversation about Geript was going nowhere, so I wanted to throw it out there. @Oats: 4 people in this game are scum. When I figure out who is scum, I'll let you know babycakes Shoots down Oats for Oats' dumb "who is scum?" question, then On February 08 2014 16:22 Corazon wrote:
Geript, when do you plan on actually trying to find scum? Just curious. Turns around and does the same stupid thing. I, unlike you, give him no townie points for the Slam questions because it was a silly thing to ask anyway. Is just blatantly wrong. He calls me out without saying that my play has been useless/I'm shitting up the thread. He doesn't want to make these specific statements that I can easily disprove. My post to Geript was basically saying "When are you going to stop shitting up the thread" and he basically stated that I was shitting up the thread too, which is a complete lie. My behavior ≠ Geript's behavior, and it's pretty bad for Yamato to try and link them together. That is most of my thoughts on the game. I haven't seen too many egregious posts which also makes me think that we have another huge lurker scum team. But it's just a feeling. On one hand it seems like the kind of stuff I'd say as town, (ie drawing attention to yourself by saying having no scum-reads might be a cop-out, being all apologetic) but then why does this only apply to you? Cora what is your D1 play normally like? But the it looks like you're drawing distinctions where you feel like drawing them. Like it looks like you're afraid of Rayn (or maybe me lol) and throwing suspicion at yamato when Rayn literally said it was yamato's post that made him think you were scummy in the first place! Also you're saying the scumteam is hugely lurky IS a cop-out. Do you think everyone who has posted so far is town? Is yamato scum for saying what he did? Or alternatively have a look at what I wrote about Koshi. Marv is the only person aside from Koshi himself who has bothered to talk to me about it. Also I just realized, we haven't heard from Holyflare and VE STILL hasn't answered my damn questions. Show nested quote +On February 09 2014 07:48 VisceraEyes wrote:
Meh, I'm okay with geript for now. *shrug*
Wave if you want to elaborate on your feels a little bit I might be down with lynching Koshi. This was the last I heard from him, I made my post and he hasn't responded to that OR the specific questions I asked him. Fuck this I probably should just assume marv is town every game and just lick his asshole because he's often the only one that bothers to read anything I write. Question... On February 09 2014 17:55 WaveofShadow wrote:
I'm going to bed.
Yamato consider VA and Koshi again. I believe one of them is likely scum. Both have done nothing all day.
One is playing like ass and making no excuses for his play, and martyring to some degree.
The other is acting odd as all hell, and hiding behind the strong players in the game.
My money's on Koshi. Going to bed - no mention of main lynch target On February 10 2014 03:26 WaveofShadow wrote:Show nested quote +On February 10 2014 02:18 raynpelikoneet wrote:On February 10 2014 02:13 Koshi wrote:
Also I said some stuff about WoS.
He is maybe probably town.
Also I commented on those names from rayn.
Also I commented on Grack.
Oats go fuck off. THX Yeah about this. You didn't agree but all the reads you gave line up with mine. What's up with that? Phoneposting Not following the rage from Koshi All he has done this game is suck up to the big names in this game and hide behind their egos Only does relevant things when attention is drawn to it/under pressure. Super town And I must say I hate this technique of bullying the hell out of people who vote for you Looks like you've taught Koshi well marv, soon everybody can act like an asshat. Vote stays---raging and acting antitown on top of a previous useless day doesn't make me want to unvote you, if anything it makes me want to remove you from the game more the only way I know how Back later Vote stays on Koshi - no mention of Cora
We have this post after the lynch
On February 10 2014 12:13 WaveofShadow wrote:
Alright back.
I can't say I'm entirely surprised with the way the lynch today went---I don't care what other people say it certainly did look 'too easy,' and while I doubt I would have necessarily fought against it, especially since my lynch wagon on Koshi lost any support, I would have at least mentioned that fact as geript did. (Make of that what you will, obviously can't prove any of it.) Cora didn't exactly look great to me either but I was waffling on it throughout the day so in the end I'm happy my vote is on scum, whether you guys are willing to believe it or not.
Hindsight is a beautiful thing, isn't it? As is being absent (which normally Wave advertises in advance). The crux of the matter in the end is - do I believe his push on Koshi?
so in the end I'm happy my vote is on scum, whether you guys are willing to believe it or not.
Why would any townie be happy about this? And how can he possibly be so sure when players who know Koshi very well like rayn and marv are extremely sceptical of Koshi being mafia? Where does this misplaced assuredness come from I wonder?
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Let's assume WoS is mafia.
I take it to mean that your story here marv, is that WoS is softly pushing Corazon, but decides against joining that wagon in favor of trying to buy town credit for not being on the mislynch and then raging about it?
Let's broaden the question too, do you think the wagon on Corazon was a "safe" wagon for the mafia. Do you think there are multiple scum on him?
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On February 11 2014 01:26 Palmar wrote:
Let's assume WoS is mafia.
I take it to mean that your story here marv, is that WoS is softly pushing Corazon, but decides against joining that wagon in favor of trying to buy town credit for not being on the mislynch and then raging about it?
Let's broaden the question too, do you think the wagon on Corazon was a "safe" wagon for the mafia. Do you think there are multiple scum on him?
Bold - that's not quite it. Maybe I'm finding it hard to express clearly. It's not "softly pushing" - like whether he is softly pushing or softly defending or whatever isn't really the deal. The deal is more that he has very little clear opinion on the main wagon, which is pretty unusual for Wave, to say the least. I also don't think it's specifically about buying town credit either, although the last post I quoted kinda looks like that with the "at least i'm happy my vote was on mafia". It's more that I'd expect a clearer message on the main wagon. And how his Koshi push looks & feels.
Yes, I think the Corazon wagon was a safe one. Without looking at the votelist, I'd expect at least 2 mafia to be on that wagon.
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In fact I hadn't really thought about it, but it's interesting to consider the Corazon wagon.
None of my stronger scumreads are on the wagon. I'm town, and I think Risen is too. I don't really want to lynch Koshi, Holyflare looks ok, and marv/rayn are doing a better job tonight than they did yesterday.
VA was on the wagon too, but as I already mentioned, I don't see anything particularly scummy about his actions, and while I have no reason to think I'm being lied to that he always plays mafia like that, I'd rather trust my own feeling for now.
So that really just leaves yamato.
Maybe there were no mafia on the wagon, but I just find that kind of unlikely.
I need to read Grack. his lone-ranger vote is a bit strange (so is geript's, but we all know he's scum anyway).
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VA was off the wagon in the end, have you not been reading any of my posts on him? :p
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The buddying comment from WoS just started bothering me again. I don't know why would he say that in the first place. That's what i pretty much ALWAYS do. Or stay silent and see what marv does.
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Yes, it was a ridiculous thing to say really. Don't know if in particular it's scum-ridiculous or just ridiculous though.
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Palmar why does Holyflare look okay?
I found his post about some of the votes worrying. This one:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=442512¤tpage=41#803
This to me (especially considering the timing) looks like "let's find some people suspicious given that Cora will flip town". This posts doesn't seem to be achieving anything and Holyflare brings it up later with a mindset that to me reads like "look what i said earlier".
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On February 11 2014 01:35 marvellosity wrote:
VA was off the wagon in the end, have you not been reading any of my posts on him? :p
I'm aware, unfortunate wording (I already posted something like "people are going to remember he was on the cora wagon")
I said "VA was on the wagon too" and I meant "VA used to be on the wagon too"
Or something like that, you get what I said.
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On February 11 2014 01:37 marvellosity wrote:
Yes, it was a ridiculous thing to say really. Don't know if in particular it's scum-ridiculous or just ridiculous though.
I could bounce a counter-question to him - Why is he not buddying VE like usual? In LXIV all he did was circle-jerk with VE, now he is not apparently even reading his posts.
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On February 11 2014 01:39 raynpelikoneet wrote:Palmar why does Holyflare look okay? I found his post about some of the votes worrying. This one: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=442512¤tpage=41#803This to me (especially considering the timing) looks like "let's find some people suspicious given that Cora will flip town". This posts doesn't seem to be achieving anything and Holyflare brings it up later with a mindset that to me reads like "look what i said earlier".
Mostly because I felt his approach to talking to me after the lynch was relatively healthy. It's entirely possible I may be mistaking tentative with reasonable (ie, given people like Cora called me scum for no reason, it's nice to talk to people who actually ask questions and respond), but yeah. I thought his questioning was indicative of someone who had an actual interest in finding out what went on.
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At the time marv made a random comment "why so scummy" on a completely genuine post of mine without really offering any reasoning for it, I had to ask him specifically why he felt it was scummy just to get talking.
Holyflare actually asked concise questions.
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On February 11 2014 01:43 Palmar wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2014 01:39 raynpelikoneet wrote:Palmar why does Holyflare look okay? I found his post about some of the votes worrying. This one: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=442512¤tpage=41#803This to me (especially considering the timing) looks like "let's find some people suspicious given that Cora will flip town". This posts doesn't seem to be achieving anything and Holyflare brings it up later with a mindset that to me reads like "look what i said earlier". Mostly because I felt his approach to talking to me after the lynch was relatively healthy. It's entirely possible I may be mistaking tentative with reasonable (ie, given people like Cora called me scum for no reason, it's nice to talk to people who actually ask questions and respond), but yeah. I thought his questioning was indicative of someone who had an actual interest in finding out what went on.
I find it problematic because he does not really have any insight to provide in those particular "reads" (i don't even know what he is trying to say). Like he points out something that is suspicious (??), doesn't say why and ends up with a question "are all these people scum", like someone else needs to decide for him. Then he brings the same thing up again after the lynch.
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United Kingdom36161 Posts
On February 11 2014 01:39 raynpelikoneet wrote:Palmar why does Holyflare look okay? I found his post about some of the votes worrying. This one: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=442512¤tpage=41#803This to me (especially considering the timing) looks like "let's find some people suspicious given that Cora will flip town". This posts doesn't seem to be achieving anything and Holyflare brings it up later with a mindset that to me reads like "look what i said earlier".
I think I'm ok with Holyflare at the moment. I remember something that Cora wrote:
"Holy went to a lot of effort just to +1 a vote, looks like town"
and I read that and thought "actually, usually mafia overjustify their votes, that's not right".
But I thought about it a little bit more, and it seemed like *SO* much effort to go to to +1 a vote, that maybe it comes from town after all.
Further when he brought up his post on voting, it felt more like that he felt he made good analysis that he wanted the thread to talk about, rather than mafia wanting to show off their contributions.
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On February 11 2014 01:45 raynpelikoneet wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2014 01:43 Palmar wrote:On February 11 2014 01:39 raynpelikoneet wrote:Palmar why does Holyflare look okay? I found his post about some of the votes worrying. This one: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=442512¤tpage=41#803This to me (especially considering the timing) looks like "let's find some people suspicious given that Cora will flip town". This posts doesn't seem to be achieving anything and Holyflare brings it up later with a mindset that to me reads like "look what i said earlier". Mostly because I felt his approach to talking to me after the lynch was relatively healthy. It's entirely possible I may be mistaking tentative with reasonable (ie, given people like Cora called me scum for no reason, it's nice to talk to people who actually ask questions and respond), but yeah. I thought his questioning was indicative of someone who had an actual interest in finding out what went on. I find it problematic because he does not really have any insight to provide in those particular "reads" (i don't even know what he is trying to say). Like he points out something that is suspicious (??), doesn't say why and ends up with a question "are all these people scum", like someone else needs to decide for him. Then he brings the same thing up again after the lynch.
Maybe I'm putting too much value into how he interacted with me, and not enough in what else he said.
who knows.
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The main issue I have with Holy is his activity, and we'll see on that
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On February 11 2014 01:48 marvellosity wrote:
The main issue I have with Holy is his activity, and we'll see on that
My main issue is that he is using clear arguments and has clear thougts when he is town and makes a lot of fluff posts that don't really end up saying anything as mafia and this looks more like the latter.
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I don't really agree with that assessment tbh. Do you remember something I wrote about Holy in Vengeful?
I said his focus on Prome looked suspicious, but he had more little posts that I felt were more likely to come from a town-Holy. I expect longer blocks of paragraph + text from a mafia Holy than I've seen this game. It's not conclusive but it means I'm not particularly interested in him atm
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EPT
